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cc

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>> Welcome to University Place.

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I'm Norman Gilliland.

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Roger Ebert has said of my

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guest today, "After 20 years

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of reviewing films, I haven't

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found another filmmaker

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who intrigues me more.

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Errol Morris is like a magician,

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and is great a filmmaker

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as Hitchcock or Fellini."

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And "The Guardian" recently put

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him in its top ten list of the

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world's great directors.

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However you react to his films,

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I think you'll find that he

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makes the strange familiar,

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and the familiar strange.

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And we'll find out how he works

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some of his magic by sampling

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some of his films later, and

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finding out where his mind takes

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us into dialogue.

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Welcome to University Place.

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>> Thanks for having me here.

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>> A pleasure to have you.

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Your earliest days getting

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inspired to create films.

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Were documentary filmmakers as

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much of an influence for you on

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inspiration as theatrical films?

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Or, where did it come from?

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>> It started with drama,

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theatrical films.

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I'm still obsessed with them.

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That really hasn't changed over

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the years.

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Madison, Wisconsin, because

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Madison has one of the

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extraordinary film archives

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in the world.

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>> It certainly has.

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>> And I started to watch films.

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I was a student here in the late

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'60s.

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I came back in the early '70s.

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Much of what I do, including

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making films, comes out of this

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place.

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It comes out of being here in

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Wisconsin.

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>> Of course, there is the

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project that I guess you didn't

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finish, that had you living in

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Plainfield for a year or more.

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>> That's correct.

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>> Maybe we'll touch on that a

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little bit later, too.

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But other than the rather

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macabre story of Ed Gein in

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Plainfield, what was...

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>> Just one small correction.

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People never know how to

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pronounce his name.

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They think because it's Gein,

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G-E-I-N, that it's German.

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The name actually was shortened

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from the Scottish.

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It was McGein originally.

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The correct pronunciation

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is with the long "E".

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>> Ed Gein.

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>> Ed Gein, yes indeed.

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>> I'll trust you on that.

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Anybody who spent a year

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researching him, and I guess no

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pun intended, digging up some

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new information, would be an

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expert.

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You must be one of the world

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authorities on Ed Gein.

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>> Maybe I am.

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>> How do you feel about

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investing so much of your time

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in a project that didn't turn

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into a film in the long run?

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>> Not an unfamiliar experience.

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Most of the projects I have,

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really didn't become films.

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And for years, I wasn't writing.

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I am now writing.

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I write regularly

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for the "New York Times."

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I have a book coming out from

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Penguin early next year.

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And I will write something

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about my experiences in

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Plainfield, Wisconsin.

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Maybe it's 30 years after the

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fact, but I will write about it.

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>> There's something to be said

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for 30 years of perspective on a

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project.

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>> I still have wanted to make,

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not a documentary film, but

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theatrical film about Ed Gein.

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And the title--

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>> Wasn't it called "Psycho"?

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Wasn't that inspired by Ed Gein?

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>> "Psycho" was inspired

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by Ed Gein.

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It was written by Robert Bloch,

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who lived in Weyaugega,

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Wisconsin, at the time these

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murders received international

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attention.

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And "Psycho" is a truly great

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movie.

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It's one Hitchcock's greatest

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movies.

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My Ed Gein story is a somewhat

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different story, inspired by my

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own experiences with the case.

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>> One of the experiences you

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had, and I gather nobody else

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gleaned this from the

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circumstances, was the circular

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pattern of his exhuming people

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in the cemetery, and the

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significance of it.

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>> I can't quite call myself a

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frequent visitor to the

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Plainfield Cemetery, but yes,

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I was there many, many times.

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Ed Gein was principally,

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a grave robber, not a murderer.

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He'd read the obituaries, and he

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would exhume from various

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graves, women who looked

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a little bit like mom,

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middle aged heavy-set.

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And I became obsessed, the story

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of my life, I became obsessed

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with so many of the details of

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the Gein case, including the

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location of all the graves.

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>> And nobody else, as they say,

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had broken this ground before?

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>> Broken this ground?

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No, I don't believe so.

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>> So, that's still waiting for

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you to describe that process in

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book form you say, probably, or

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film?

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>> Or in film.

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I have a script called "Digging

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Up The Past," which is taken

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from Gein's defense attorneys.

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They had to provide an oral

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argument at the end of the case.

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Exactly really what do you say?

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I believe it's hard to know,

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because I'm just reading words

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on a page.

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I believe that the defense

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attorneys were somewhat nervous

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about what they were going to

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say.

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And without any trace of irony,

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they argued there's no reason to

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force this man to dig up the

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past, after all don't we all

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have skeletons in our closet?

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Yes, but usually not literally.

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( <i>both laugh</i> )

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>> Well, you know, speaking of

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people who are a little nervous

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about what they're going to say,

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you seem to have this wizardry

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when it come to getting people

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on camera to reveal themselves.

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And sometimes the effect might

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be considered comic to the

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viewer, and sometimes tragic.

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And sometimes this person is

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somebody we might call a small

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person, or an unknown private

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person, and sometimes

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it's a very public person.

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How did you go about getting

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somebody, in those early films,

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for starters, to reveal so much

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of themselves in something like

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"Vernon, Florida,"

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or the "Gates of Heaven"?

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>> I don't know.

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It's an art form.

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Psychiatrists talk about

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transference, but that may just

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beg the question, because after

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all, what is transference?

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Everybody has the experience of

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people they enjoy talking to,

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and people they don't enjoy

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talking to, people that they

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would rather avoid altogether

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if possible.

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I really like interviewing.

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There's something magical

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about it.

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I'll sometimes describe it as

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human relationships in this very

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odd laboratory setting.

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For example, the two of us

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sitting here today.

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I developed my technique of

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interviewing before I became a

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filmmaker.

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In fact, I developed it--

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Where did I develop it?

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I developed it in Wisconsin.

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Does everything come from this

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state?

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>> That'd be alright.

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So, if not for film, what medium

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did you use for interviews?

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>> A cassette tape.

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I would walk into a room with my

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cassette tape recorders, and I

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would put the tape recorder down

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on the table.

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The tape recorder was already

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running.

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I didn't like the idea of asking

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permission to record, because it

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always gave--

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>> It put them on guard.

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>> It gave somebody the

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opportunity to say no.

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It put them on guard.

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So, I would put the tape

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recorder down in clear view.

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It wasn't as if I was

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surreptitiously recording.

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Everybody could see the tape

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recorder, and knew presumably,

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that I was recording.

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And then I had a game

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that I played with myself.

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How can I encourage people

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to talk at enormous length

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without interrupting them?

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How can I encourage them just to

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go on and on and on.

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>> Look at Frederick Wiseman and

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his documentaries.

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>> Fred has a different

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technique, which is something

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that fascinates me.

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I've always wanted to make

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a cin�ma v�rit� documentary

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� la Fred Wiseman.

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He is the proverbial fly on the

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wall, in the sense that he will

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go into some situation, people

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will be talking, and he will

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observe that conversation.

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I'm almost the flip side of

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Wiseman, in the sense that my

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art depends on people talking

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directly to camera,

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directly to me and to camera.

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Sometimes I may be a fly on the

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wall, but it's a 600-pound fly

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on the wall.

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I'm far from being unobtrusive.

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I'm very much present.

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>> And how do you decide?

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In films, I mean, you're very

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sparing with it, as far as I can

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tell, but how do you decide when

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to leave your voice, albeit

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off-camera, in one of your

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films?

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>> I've been doing more and more

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of it.

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My most recent film, "Tabloid,"

288
00:11:13,574 --> 00:11:15,075
has my voice all over the place.

289
00:11:15,142 --> 00:11:16,577
It's a central part of the

290
00:11:16,643 --> 00:11:18,312
movie.

291
00:11:21,481 --> 00:11:22,850
I don't know, maybe I feel more

292
00:11:22,916 --> 00:11:25,385
comfortable with myself.

293
00:11:27,154 --> 00:11:28,589
>> Did you do that,

294
00:11:28,655 --> 00:11:30,524
I'm trying to remember,

295
00:11:30,591 --> 00:11:32,893
in "The Thin Blue Line," at all?

296
00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,195
>> No, except for the very end

297
00:11:35,262 --> 00:11:36,930
of the movie.

298
00:11:37,664 --> 00:11:38,799
I had what I thought was

299
00:11:38,866 --> 00:11:40,534
a disaster.

300
00:11:41,101 --> 00:11:42,936
Here's a movie where I spent

301
00:11:43,003 --> 00:11:45,572
three years investigating

302
00:11:46,106 --> 00:11:47,774
a murder in Texas,

303
00:11:50,177 --> 00:11:51,645
and a man who I believe had been

304
00:11:51,712 --> 00:11:54,248
falsely accused of this murder.

305
00:11:54,314 --> 00:11:57,417
He's sentenced to death for the

306
00:11:57,484 --> 00:11:58,719
murder of a Dallas police

307
00:11:58,785 --> 00:12:00,454
officer in 1977.

308
00:12:09,429 --> 00:12:11,365
I had waited three years to

309
00:12:11,431 --> 00:12:14,001
interview the man who I believed

310
00:12:14,067 --> 00:12:16,870
was the killer, the real killer.

311
00:12:16,937 --> 00:12:19,106
And I started the interview

312
00:12:19,173 --> 00:12:20,841
on a Friday night.

313
00:12:21,141 --> 00:12:23,143
And my cameras broke.

314
00:12:24,278 --> 00:12:26,013
It's like a joke.

315
00:12:26,079 --> 00:12:27,214
>> That's the worst case

316
00:12:27,281 --> 00:12:29,183
scenario, isn't it?

317
00:12:30,284 --> 00:12:32,019
>> It's presumably a filmmaker's

318
00:12:32,085 --> 00:12:33,754
worst nightmare.

319
00:12:34,321 --> 00:12:35,489
And I thought, this can't really

320
00:12:35,556 --> 00:12:36,790
be happening.

321
00:12:36,857 --> 00:12:38,525
This is absurd.

322
00:12:38,892 --> 00:12:41,461
It's just all too horrible.

323
00:12:43,096 --> 00:12:44,731
I came back the following day

324
00:12:44,798 --> 00:12:46,800
with a tape recorder.

325
00:12:47,568 --> 00:12:49,136
I tape recorded this final

326
00:12:49,203 --> 00:12:52,105
interview, which is at the end.

327
00:12:52,606 --> 00:12:54,074
>> And it's very effective, too.

328
00:12:54,141 --> 00:12:55,442
It's because it's such a change

329
00:12:55,509 --> 00:12:56,777
of pace.

330
00:12:56,844 --> 00:12:59,046
>> And of course, my voice is

331
00:12:59,112 --> 00:13:00,781
all over it.

332
00:13:00,848 --> 00:13:02,983
It's me and the killer.

333
00:13:03,550 --> 00:13:05,385
The killer essentially

334
00:13:05,452 --> 00:13:08,021
confessing to this murder.

335
00:13:10,123 --> 00:13:12,926
I pursued him for three years.

336
00:13:16,230 --> 00:13:17,898
It's strange.

337
00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:21,535
The fact that it's not on film

338
00:13:21,602 --> 00:13:23,437
at the end of the film, the fact

339
00:13:23,504 --> 00:13:25,072
that it's this disembodied voice

340
00:13:25,138 --> 00:13:26,640
from a tape recorder, which you

341
00:13:26,707 --> 00:13:28,375
see on the screen.

342
00:13:29,076 --> 00:13:31,512
It gives it a power that it

343
00:13:31,578 --> 00:13:34,047
might not otherwise have.

344
00:13:34,114 --> 00:13:35,415
I can't quite say

345
00:13:35,482 --> 00:13:36,850
that I lucked out.

346
00:13:36,917 --> 00:13:38,852
But what I thought was a

347
00:13:38,919 --> 00:13:41,255
disaster turned out to be

348
00:13:43,690 --> 00:13:46,560
actually nothing of the sort.

349
00:13:46,627 --> 00:13:48,495
Let's look at what might be

350
00:13:48,562 --> 00:13:49,730
called, if there is such a term,

351
00:13:49,796 --> 00:13:51,665
a more conventional Errol Morris

352
00:13:51,732 --> 00:13:53,267
part of this film,

353
00:13:53,333 --> 00:13:55,469
"The Thin Blue Line.".

354
00:13:56,670 --> 00:13:57,704
There's just little David

355
00:13:57,771 --> 00:13:59,973
Harris, and nobody believes him.

356
00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:01,808
And so, we were very optimistic

357
00:14:01,875 --> 00:14:03,143
about his chances, until

358
00:14:03,210 --> 00:14:04,778
we walked into the court room,

359
00:14:04,845 --> 00:14:06,380
and here were all these people

360
00:14:06,446 --> 00:14:07,581
standing in front of the bench,

361
00:14:07,648 --> 00:14:09,416
three of them, anyway.

362
00:14:09,483 --> 00:14:10,651
They were taking the oath

363
00:14:10,717 --> 00:14:13,053
to be sworn as witnesses.

364
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:15,656
Mrs. Miller got on the stand

365
00:14:15,722 --> 00:14:17,791
that last afternoon.

366
00:14:17,858 --> 00:14:19,560
And she said, "That's the man!

367
00:14:19,626 --> 00:14:21,028
I saw that man!

368
00:14:21,094 --> 00:14:23,564
I saw Randall Adams' face,

369
00:14:23,931 --> 00:14:25,632
just right after..."

370
00:14:25,699 --> 00:14:27,568
She said, "I saw the gun

371
00:14:27,634 --> 00:14:29,603
sticking out of the car when

372
00:14:29,670 --> 00:14:31,905
he shot that police officer,"

373
00:14:31,972 --> 00:14:33,340
and "That's the man!"

374
00:14:33,407 --> 00:14:34,675
And she waved her finger

375
00:14:34,741 --> 00:14:36,109
right toward Randall Adams.

376
00:14:36,176 --> 00:14:37,377
She's the one

377
00:14:37,444 --> 00:14:39,680
that got him convicted.

378
00:14:40,147 --> 00:14:41,682
>> When I was a kid, I wanted

379
00:14:41,748 --> 00:14:43,016
to be a detective all the time,

380
00:14:43,083 --> 00:14:44,084
because I used to watch

381
00:14:44,151 --> 00:14:46,954
all the detective shows on TV.

382
00:14:49,890 --> 00:14:51,058
When I was a kid,

383
00:14:51,124 --> 00:14:52,292
they used to show these

384
00:14:52,359 --> 00:14:54,895
movies with Boston Blackie.

385
00:14:57,564 --> 00:15:00,367
He always had a woman with him.

386
00:15:01,168 --> 00:15:02,436
I wanted to be the wife

387
00:15:02,503 --> 00:15:03,370
of a detective,

388
00:15:03,437 --> 00:15:04,438
or be a detective,

389
00:15:04,505 --> 00:15:05,572
so I always watched

390
00:15:05,639 --> 00:15:07,541
detective stories.

391
00:15:10,611 --> 00:15:12,079
I'm always lookin', because I

392
00:15:12,145 --> 00:15:13,413
never know, you know, what might

393
00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:15,449
come up, or how I can help.

394
00:15:15,516 --> 00:15:17,084
I like to help in situations

395
00:15:17,150 --> 00:15:18,819
like that.

396
00:15:19,386 --> 00:15:21,054
I really do.

397
00:15:24,491 --> 00:15:25,592
Even though it's always

398
00:15:25,659 --> 00:15:26,994
happening to me, everywhere

399
00:15:27,060 --> 00:15:28,362
I go, you know, lots of times,

400
00:15:28,428 --> 00:15:30,030
there's killings, or anything,

401
00:15:30,097 --> 00:15:31,465
you know, even around my house,

402
00:15:31,532 --> 00:15:32,799
wherever.

403
00:15:32,866 --> 00:15:34,101
And I'm always lookin',

404
00:15:34,168 --> 00:15:35,536
or getting involved, you know,

405
00:15:35,602 --> 00:15:36,803
finding out who did it,

406
00:15:36,870 --> 00:15:38,672
or what's goin' on.

407
00:15:45,279 --> 00:15:46,680
I listen to people.

408
00:15:46,747 --> 00:15:48,649
And I'm always trying to decide

409
00:15:48,715 --> 00:15:51,084
who's lying and who killed who,

410
00:15:51,151 --> 00:15:52,619
before the police do,

411
00:15:52,686 --> 00:15:54,388
to see if I can beat 'em.

412
00:15:54,454 --> 00:15:56,123
Yeah.

413
00:16:04,031 --> 00:16:05,832
is a spectacular clip.
I mean, it gives us a pretty

414
00:16:05,899 --> 00:16:07,568
cross section, I guess I would

415
00:16:07,634 --> 00:16:10,204
say, of "The Thin Blue Line."

416
00:16:10,270 --> 00:16:11,872
>> Yes.

417
00:16:11,939 --> 00:16:14,107
>> And so, what we have, is we

418
00:16:14,174 --> 00:16:16,043
have two women speaking, one of

419
00:16:16,109 --> 00:16:19,246
whom is the attorney for Adams?

420
00:16:19,313 --> 00:16:20,981
>> Yes.

421
00:16:22,182 --> 00:16:23,383
>> And what she is saying

422
00:16:23,450 --> 00:16:25,385
is pretty understandable.

423
00:16:25,452 --> 00:16:27,187
She's emphatic about it.

424
00:16:27,254 --> 00:16:29,823
But the other one is remarkable.

425
00:16:29,890 --> 00:16:31,325
She's in effect revealing

426
00:16:31,391 --> 00:16:33,093
that she just wanted to please

427
00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:34,795
the police in this

428
00:16:34,862 --> 00:16:36,663
investigation, and kind of

429
00:16:36,730 --> 00:16:38,432
wanted to be sort of important,

430
00:16:38,498 --> 00:16:39,700
like she was in

431
00:16:39,766 --> 00:16:41,001
a "Boston Blackie" episode,

432
00:16:41,068 --> 00:16:42,302
or something.

433
00:16:42,369 --> 00:16:43,770
>> Absolutely.

434
00:16:43,837 --> 00:16:45,072
>> And none of this came out

435
00:16:45,138 --> 00:16:46,440
before, though?

436
00:16:46,507 --> 00:16:47,875
I mean, leading up to the trial

437
00:16:47,941 --> 00:16:48,909
for the defendant,

438
00:16:48,976 --> 00:16:50,143
for the man who was accused,

439
00:16:50,210 --> 00:16:52,145
and actually convicted.

440
00:16:52,212 --> 00:16:53,881
>> No, not at all.

441
00:16:54,348 --> 00:16:55,649
I stumbled on this case

442
00:16:55,716 --> 00:16:57,384
by accident.

443
00:16:57,885 --> 00:16:59,119
Adams had come within three days

444
00:16:59,186 --> 00:17:01,088
of being electrocuted,

445
00:17:01,154 --> 00:17:02,823
and was saved

446
00:17:04,224 --> 00:17:06,793
by a Supreme Court Justice.

447
00:17:07,694 --> 00:17:10,364
Really, it had nothing to do

448
00:17:10,430 --> 00:17:11,999
with the case whatsoever.

449
00:17:12,065 --> 00:17:13,433
It was a technicality involving

450
00:17:13,500 --> 00:17:15,169
jury selection.

451
00:17:15,736 --> 00:17:18,372
Today, with the present Supreme

452
00:17:18,438 --> 00:17:21,341
Court, my guess is that he would

453
00:17:22,442 --> 00:17:25,112
have been killed in the Texas

454
00:17:26,046 --> 00:17:27,714
electric chair.

455
00:17:28,448 --> 00:17:30,450
And I can tell you with

456
00:17:31,318 --> 00:17:33,654
very close to certainty,

457
00:17:34,154 --> 00:17:35,822
he didn't do it.

458
00:17:37,357 --> 00:17:38,625
>> That seems to be pretty

459
00:17:38,692 --> 00:17:40,093
clearly what Harris is saying in

460
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,130
that clip, the audio interview.

461
00:17:43,197 --> 00:17:44,531
>> Harris eventually was

462
00:17:44,598 --> 00:17:47,067
executed for another crime.

463
00:17:47,134 --> 00:17:49,036
And I spoke to him the day of

464
00:17:49,102 --> 00:17:50,771
his execution.

465
00:17:52,105 --> 00:17:54,041
And he, once again reiterated

466
00:17:54,107 --> 00:17:55,776
that Adams had had nothing

467
00:17:55,843 --> 00:17:57,077
whatsoever to do with the

468
00:17:57,144 --> 00:17:59,379
murder, that he was the person

469
00:17:59,446 --> 00:18:01,114
responsible.

470
00:18:02,749 --> 00:18:04,418
It's a true--

471
00:18:04,885 --> 00:18:06,587
And you don't find

472
00:18:06,653 --> 00:18:08,956
that it's so clear cut in life.

473
00:18:09,022 --> 00:18:10,224
>> Very often.

474
00:18:10,290 --> 00:18:12,125
>> Black and white.

475
00:18:12,192 --> 00:18:13,861
But this case, yes.

476
00:18:13,927 --> 00:18:15,629
This was a clear and terrible

477
00:18:15,696 --> 00:18:18,031
miscarriage of justice.

478
00:18:18,098 --> 00:18:20,133
>> How grateful was Adams for

479
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,102
you getting him off?

480
00:18:23,537 --> 00:18:25,672
I gather, not terribly,

481
00:18:25,739 --> 00:18:27,574
at least on the face of it.

482
00:18:27,641 --> 00:18:29,309
>> He sued me.

483
00:18:30,844 --> 00:18:32,579
And if that's a sign of

484
00:18:32,646 --> 00:18:34,581
gratitude, it's not a

485
00:18:34,648 --> 00:18:36,984
traditional sign of gratitude.

486
00:18:37,050 --> 00:18:38,519
>> And on what basis did he sue

487
00:18:38,585 --> 00:18:40,254
you?

488
00:18:40,554 --> 00:18:42,089
>> On the basis that he wanted

489
00:18:42,155 --> 00:18:44,825
money, that he had signed a

490
00:18:44,892 --> 00:18:46,260
release, he was unhappy with

491
00:18:46,326 --> 00:18:47,995
that fact.

492
00:18:50,430 --> 00:18:52,499
It was an absurd conclusion

493
00:18:52,566 --> 00:18:55,235
to a very difficult project.

494
00:18:57,304 --> 00:18:59,873
I am very proud of what I did.

495
00:19:03,110 --> 00:19:05,679
And the fact that I actually

496
00:19:05,746 --> 00:19:08,749
overturned a murder conviction

497
00:19:09,216 --> 00:19:11,151
in Texas, maybe I achieved

498
00:19:11,218 --> 00:19:12,519
something close to the

499
00:19:12,586 --> 00:19:14,254
impossible.

500
00:19:15,189 --> 00:19:17,658
My wife described it quite

501
00:19:18,258 --> 00:19:19,960
accurately by saying, just

502
00:19:20,027 --> 00:19:21,395
because he's a victim doesn't

503
00:19:21,461 --> 00:19:23,664
mean he isn't an [###].

504
00:19:23,730 --> 00:19:26,166
And I think that is really the

505
00:19:26,233 --> 00:19:27,901
essence of it.

506
00:19:29,269 --> 00:19:30,470
Do I believe that he is

507
00:19:30,537 --> 00:19:32,206
innocent?

508
00:19:32,573 --> 00:19:34,241
Yes, I do.

509
00:19:34,675 --> 00:19:36,343
Do I believe he acted really

510
00:19:36,410 --> 00:19:39,179
badly when he got out of prison.

511
00:19:39,246 --> 00:19:40,914
Yes, I do.

512
00:19:43,050 --> 00:19:44,218
>> But was he worthy of

513
00:19:44,284 --> 00:19:45,886
execution?

514
00:19:45,953 --> 00:19:47,187
No.

515
00:19:47,254 --> 00:19:48,555
>> Of course not.

516
00:19:48,622 --> 00:19:49,990
He wasn't worthy of being in

517
00:19:50,057 --> 00:19:52,092
prison for a single day,

518
00:19:52,159 --> 00:19:54,161
let alone execution.

519
00:19:55,462 --> 00:19:57,464
There's so many odd ironies with

520
00:19:57,531 --> 00:19:59,066
this story.

521
00:19:59,132 --> 00:20:00,934
There's a Dallas psychiatrist

522
00:20:01,001 --> 00:20:02,102
who's involved, nicknamed

523
00:20:02,169 --> 00:20:04,104
Dr. Death, who would make

524
00:20:04,171 --> 00:20:05,939
predictions about future

525
00:20:06,006 --> 00:20:07,774
behavior.

526
00:20:07,841 --> 00:20:10,310
What you or I will do, say,

527
00:20:10,377 --> 00:20:11,778
six months from now,

528
00:20:11,845 --> 00:20:13,514
a year from now.

529
00:20:16,416 --> 00:20:17,784
I don't believe psychiatrists

530
00:20:17,851 --> 00:20:19,887
can predict human behavior.

531
00:20:19,953 --> 00:20:21,288
>> That's been demonstrated,

532
00:20:21,355 --> 00:20:23,023
hasn't it?

533
00:20:23,090 --> 00:20:24,391
>> It has been.

534
00:20:24,458 --> 00:20:26,026
Although, I make one exception.

535
00:20:26,093 --> 00:20:28,729
What Dr. Death would say at the

536
00:20:28,795 --> 00:20:29,963
penalty stage of a capital

537
00:20:30,030 --> 00:20:31,465
murder trial.

538
00:20:31,532 --> 00:20:32,933
He would always say that the

539
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:34,101
defendant is dangerous and will

540
00:20:34,168 --> 00:20:35,769
kill, and kill again, unless he

541
00:20:35,836 --> 00:20:37,971
is killed by the state.

542
00:20:38,572 --> 00:20:39,973
This is exactly what he said

543
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,042
about Randall Adams.

544
00:20:42,943 --> 00:20:44,077
>> And I gather about a hundred

545
00:20:44,144 --> 00:20:46,213
other people on death row.

546
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:47,948
>> The only problem with this

547
00:20:48,015 --> 00:20:49,416
prediction, is Adams had never

548
00:20:49,483 --> 00:20:51,151
killed anybody.

549
00:20:51,418 --> 00:20:53,086
He had never committed any crime

550
00:20:53,153 --> 00:20:55,822
whatsoever, except for a DWI

551
00:20:56,456 --> 00:20:59,259
that was ten years' previous.

552
00:21:00,594 --> 00:21:01,995
He's been out of prison now for

553
00:21:02,062 --> 00:21:04,531
over 20 years and has never

554
00:21:05,799 --> 00:21:08,368
committed any kind of crime

555
00:21:10,204 --> 00:21:12,339
whatsoever, felony, misdemeanor,

556
00:21:12,406 --> 00:21:14,074
whatever.

557
00:21:18,078 --> 00:21:19,913
Grigson's predictions were just

558
00:21:19,980 --> 00:21:21,648
completely off-base, completely

559
00:21:21,715 --> 00:21:23,383
wrong.

560
00:21:24,651 --> 00:21:27,054
>> So that was obviously, almost

561
00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:29,456
an earth-shaking film, the

562
00:21:29,523 --> 00:21:32,860
results, actually a direct major

563
00:21:32,926 --> 00:21:35,395
response to a film that you

564
00:21:35,762 --> 00:21:37,431
made.

565
00:21:37,965 --> 00:21:39,299
But along the way, before that

566
00:21:39,366 --> 00:21:42,302
and after, you made films that

567
00:21:42,369 --> 00:21:45,105
were about causes that were not

568
00:21:45,172 --> 00:21:46,807
so big, or things that weren't

569
00:21:46,874 --> 00:21:48,275
causes at all that were perhaps

570
00:21:48,342 --> 00:21:50,511
just descriptions of then

571
00:21:50,577 --> 00:21:52,246
unknown people.

572
00:21:53,413 --> 00:21:54,715
>> Yes.

573
00:21:54,781 --> 00:21:55,949
>> Who were not controversial,

574
00:21:56,016 --> 00:21:57,050
and yet you found something

575
00:21:57,117 --> 00:21:58,051
to tie them together.

576
00:21:58,118 --> 00:21:59,119
I'm thinking of a film

577
00:21:59,186 --> 00:22:00,187
like "Fast, Cheap

578
00:22:00,254 --> 00:22:01,355
and Out of Control."

579
00:22:01,421 --> 00:22:02,456
How did you ever come up

580
00:22:02,523 --> 00:22:03,624
with the idea for that,

581
00:22:03,690 --> 00:22:04,791
coming up with these completely

582
00:22:04,858 --> 00:22:06,360
seemingly different people,

583
00:22:06,426 --> 00:22:08,896
and uniting them somehow.

584
00:22:10,631 --> 00:22:12,032
>> It's always hard to know

585
00:22:12,099 --> 00:22:14,268
where ideas come from.

586
00:22:14,334 --> 00:22:16,570
And usually, by the time

587
00:22:17,070 --> 00:22:18,872
I'm making a movie,

588
00:22:19,606 --> 00:22:20,774
I've forgotten about why

589
00:22:20,841 --> 00:22:22,309
I'm making it.

590
00:22:22,376 --> 00:22:23,710
I've just become involved

591
00:22:23,777 --> 00:22:26,346
in the process of making it.

592
00:22:27,481 --> 00:22:30,150
"Fast, Cheap" is an odd movie,

593
00:22:30,217 --> 00:22:32,085
because it is four stories that

594
00:22:32,152 --> 00:22:34,621
are seemingly unrelated.

595
00:22:35,822 --> 00:22:38,091
A mole-rat photographer,

596
00:22:38,158 --> 00:22:39,326
a lion tamer..

597
00:22:39,393 --> 00:22:40,561
>> A robotics expert.

598
00:22:40,627 --> 00:22:41,862
>> A robotics expert

599
00:22:41,929 --> 00:22:44,164
and a topiary gardener.

600
00:22:47,201 --> 00:22:49,670
Why package these together

601
00:22:49,736 --> 00:22:51,405
in one movie?

602
00:22:55,943 --> 00:22:58,512
I like the idea of untethering

603
00:22:58,579 --> 00:23:00,147
a documentary

604
00:23:00,214 --> 00:23:01,448
from its subject matter.

605
00:23:01,515 --> 00:23:02,983
So much of documentary

606
00:23:03,050 --> 00:23:05,519
takes its importance from

607
00:23:06,086 --> 00:23:09,089
what it's purportedly about.

608
00:23:09,156 --> 00:23:10,657
I sometimes joke,

609
00:23:10,724 --> 00:23:12,626
you can't make a bad movie

610
00:23:12,693 --> 00:23:14,394
about Mother Theresa,

611
00:23:14,461 --> 00:23:15,596
because after all,

612
00:23:15,662 --> 00:23:17,998
Mother Theresa is a good person.

613
00:23:18,065 --> 00:23:19,867
>> And stature to anything--

614
00:23:19,933 --> 00:23:21,235
>> But the truth of the matter

615
00:23:21,301 --> 00:23:23,003
is you can make a very bad movie

616
00:23:23,070 --> 00:23:25,005
about Mother Theresa.

617
00:23:25,072 --> 00:23:26,306
It really doesn't matter

618
00:23:26,373 --> 00:23:28,542
how good she personally is,

619
00:23:28,609 --> 00:23:30,444
you can make a very, very bad

620
00:23:30,511 --> 00:23:32,179
movie about her.

621
00:23:33,247 --> 00:23:34,815
The idea that I can pick

622
00:23:34,882 --> 00:23:37,718
subjects that are seemingly

623
00:23:37,784 --> 00:23:40,120
unimportant or unworthy

624
00:23:41,188 --> 00:23:43,590
and turn them into movies,

625
00:23:43,657 --> 00:23:45,659
interesting movies,

626
00:23:46,426 --> 00:23:48,328
was a worthy enterprise for me.

627
00:23:48,395 --> 00:23:50,130
It's finding something

628
00:23:50,197 --> 00:23:53,233
in the story that's unexpected,

629
00:23:53,300 --> 00:23:56,270
unbranded, the movie doesn't

630
00:23:56,336 --> 00:23:58,005
stamp on itself,

631
00:23:58,405 --> 00:23:59,806
"I'm important,"

632
00:23:59,873 --> 00:24:01,608
or "I'm significant."

633
00:24:01,675 --> 00:24:02,809
>> We're going to talk

634
00:24:02,876 --> 00:24:03,977
about distribution and marketing

635
00:24:04,044 --> 00:24:05,245
a little later, and

636
00:24:05,312 --> 00:24:07,347
how you would brand a film.

637
00:24:07,414 --> 00:24:08,782
But let's have a look at "Fast,

638
00:24:08,849 --> 00:24:10,050
Cheap and Out of Control,"

639
00:24:10,117 --> 00:24:12,252
and see how you bring in

640
00:24:12,319 --> 00:24:13,453
one of these subjects,

641
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,189
if not four.

642
00:24:21,662 --> 00:24:24,231
>> Evolution spent a long time,

643
00:24:24,298 --> 00:24:25,699
billions of years,

644
00:24:25,766 --> 00:24:27,434
getting to the point of little

645
00:24:27,501 --> 00:24:28,535
creatures which could chase

646
00:24:28,602 --> 00:24:30,204
each other around, have

647
00:24:30,270 --> 00:24:32,673
mobility, and interact with

648
00:24:32,739 --> 00:24:34,374
the world in a meaningful way,

649
00:24:34,441 --> 00:24:36,210
apart from being an amoebae

650
00:24:36,276 --> 00:24:38,011
that just sits there

651
00:24:38,078 --> 00:24:39,813
and doesn't do much.

652
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,015
Once that stuff was there,

653
00:24:42,082 --> 00:24:44,017
all this other stuff

654
00:24:44,084 --> 00:24:46,019
evolved very quickly.

655
00:24:46,086 --> 00:24:47,087
Higher level intelligence,

656
00:24:47,154 --> 00:24:48,422
whatever that is,

657
00:24:48,488 --> 00:24:50,390
is pretty easy once you have

658
00:24:50,457 --> 00:24:52,359
the ability to move around,

659
00:24:52,426 --> 00:24:54,094
hunt, chase...

660
00:24:55,262 --> 00:24:57,598
They're the tough parts.

661
00:25:05,239 --> 00:25:07,007
I don't believe it's possible to

662
00:25:07,074 --> 00:25:08,876
have a disembodied intelligence

663
00:25:08,942 --> 00:25:10,544
without a physical connection

664
00:25:10,611 --> 00:25:12,279
to reality.

665
00:25:15,782 --> 00:25:17,017
Everything we think,

666
00:25:17,084 --> 00:25:18,252
everything in our thought

667
00:25:18,318 --> 00:25:19,720
process is built around being

668
00:25:19,786 --> 00:25:21,555
in touch with reality.

669
00:25:21,622 --> 00:25:23,957
Even the word "touch"...

670
00:25:27,761 --> 00:25:30,464
A cockroach has 30,000 hairs,

671
00:25:30,531 --> 00:25:32,833
each of which is a sensor.

672
00:25:32,900 --> 00:25:34,334
The most complex robot we've

673
00:25:34,401 --> 00:25:36,236
built has a 150 sensors,

674
00:25:36,303 --> 00:25:38,605
and it's just about killed us.

675
00:25:38,672 --> 00:25:41,108
We can't expect to do as well

676
00:25:41,175 --> 00:25:43,143
as animals do in the world

677
00:25:43,210 --> 00:25:44,244
until we get past

678
00:25:44,311 --> 00:25:46,380
that sensing barrier.

679
00:26:12,406 --> 00:26:13,974
>> Whatever you're saying here,

680
00:26:14,041 --> 00:26:14,975
it is funny.

681
00:26:15,042 --> 00:26:16,143
I mean,

682
00:26:16,210 --> 00:26:18,045
the footage is kind of like

683
00:26:18,111 --> 00:26:19,613
pseudo-scientific-looking '50s

684
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,748
footage mixed in with animation,

685
00:26:21,815 --> 00:26:23,483
mixed in with,

686
00:26:24,117 --> 00:26:25,819
I'd say "serious," but the guy

687
00:26:25,886 --> 00:26:27,087
doesn't even do that for me.

688
00:26:27,154 --> 00:26:28,522
He doesn't even look quite

689
00:26:28,589 --> 00:26:29,790
that serious when he's talking

690
00:26:29,857 --> 00:26:31,291
about robotics.

691
00:26:31,358 --> 00:26:32,559
How did you decide

692
00:26:32,626 --> 00:26:34,027
to put all this stuff together?

693
00:26:34,094 --> 00:26:35,162
It must have been

694
00:26:35,229 --> 00:26:36,263
a heck of an editing job.

695
00:26:36,330 --> 00:26:37,397
>> It was an impossible

696
00:26:37,464 --> 00:26:39,132
editing job.

697
00:26:39,900 --> 00:26:41,835
It took well over a year

698
00:26:41,902 --> 00:26:43,570
to edit.

699
00:26:45,506 --> 00:26:48,075
Interesting, because it's

700
00:26:48,509 --> 00:26:50,110
the kitchen sink approach to

701
00:26:50,177 --> 00:26:51,512
filmmaking.

702
00:26:51,578 --> 00:26:53,113
There's all kinds of media in

703
00:26:53,180 --> 00:26:54,848
this movie.

704
00:26:56,250 --> 00:26:59,152
Everything you could imagine.

705
00:26:59,786 --> 00:27:01,355
So, the task of putting that all

706
00:27:01,421 --> 00:27:03,891
together was monumental.

707
00:27:04,892 --> 00:27:06,693
And there was no model for it.

708
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,429
There was no movie like this.

709
00:27:10,063 --> 00:27:11,732
No prototype.

710
00:27:12,833 --> 00:27:14,868
>> Toward the end of this film,

711
00:27:14,935 --> 00:27:16,403
if I remember right, you

712
00:27:16,470 --> 00:27:18,438
actually make the cuts from one

713
00:27:18,505 --> 00:27:21,375
of each of the four individuals

714
00:27:21,441 --> 00:27:23,877
closer together, and then have

715
00:27:23,944 --> 00:27:25,512
maybe the MIT robotics guy

716
00:27:25,579 --> 00:27:27,781
talking over surface footage,

717
00:27:27,848 --> 00:27:30,284
and in one way, a blending.

718
00:27:30,350 --> 00:27:31,852
I mean, is this your way

719
00:27:31,919 --> 00:27:33,453
of kind of your own personal

720
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:34,821
Errol Morris'

721
00:27:34,888 --> 00:27:36,723
unified field theory?

722
00:27:36,790 --> 00:27:38,358
Uniting all these disparate

723
00:27:38,425 --> 00:27:39,993
things?

724
00:27:40,060 --> 00:27:41,728
>> Maybe so.

725
00:27:46,567 --> 00:27:49,036
We had a plan in the editing

726
00:27:51,071 --> 00:27:52,539
that we'd start out with these

727
00:27:52,606 --> 00:27:54,842
four discreet stories.

728
00:27:55,876 --> 00:27:57,344
The audience would be clear

729
00:27:57,411 --> 00:27:59,880
there's story A, B, C and D.

730
00:28:00,314 --> 00:28:02,282
And then, as the movie proceeds,

731
00:28:02,349 --> 00:28:05,185
the stories get mixed together,

732
00:28:05,252 --> 00:28:06,954
they get blended together until

733
00:28:07,020 --> 00:28:08,956
there's a certain point in the

734
00:28:09,022 --> 00:28:12,025
movie where you're in free fall,

735
00:28:13,393 --> 00:28:16,296
The dialogue and the picture

736
00:28:16,363 --> 00:28:18,332
become divorced from each other.

737
00:28:18,398 --> 00:28:19,633
>> Right.

738
00:28:19,700 --> 00:28:21,101
>> And you don't know quite

739
00:28:21,168 --> 00:28:23,303
exactly where you are.

740
00:28:24,705 --> 00:28:26,373
I don't think there's really

741
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:27,641
anything quite like this movie.

742
00:28:27,708 --> 00:28:29,877
I'm quite proud of it.

743
00:28:29,943 --> 00:28:31,678
But I would be very, very

744
00:28:31,745 --> 00:28:33,113
reluctant to try to do this

745
00:28:33,180 --> 00:28:34,848
again.

746
00:28:35,382 --> 00:28:36,683
>> So the overall effect, you

747
00:28:36,750 --> 00:28:38,118
would say, in a word or two, of

748
00:28:38,185 --> 00:28:40,254
a film like that, "Fast, Cheap

749
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:41,688
and Out of Control," would be,

750
00:28:41,755 --> 00:28:43,090
the effect that you're after,

751
00:28:43,156 --> 00:28:44,758
I mean, blended, certainly

752
00:28:44,825 --> 00:28:46,326
gets us most of the way there.

753
00:28:46,393 --> 00:28:48,061
>> A dream.

754
00:28:48,362 --> 00:28:49,997
It was made around the time that

755
00:28:50,063 --> 00:28:53,000
my mom and step-father died.

756
00:28:53,066 --> 00:28:54,568
I have always looked at the film

757
00:28:54,635 --> 00:28:56,303
as an elegy.

758
00:29:01,008 --> 00:29:02,976
And it may be the most visually

759
00:29:03,043 --> 00:29:06,180
interesting film that I've made.

760
00:29:07,748 --> 00:29:10,417
Built around a lot of devices

761
00:29:10,918 --> 00:29:13,820
that I've used in other movies,

762
00:29:14,688 --> 00:29:16,356
odd serials,

763
00:29:18,825 --> 00:29:21,161
black and white imagery.

764
00:29:22,262 --> 00:29:23,964
You name it, you can find it

765
00:29:24,031 --> 00:29:25,265
in that movie in some form

766
00:29:25,332 --> 00:29:26,533
or another.

767
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:27,868
>> Which I suspect is the way

768
00:29:27,935 --> 00:29:29,336
the mind actually works,

769
00:29:29,403 --> 00:29:30,971
all the kaleidoscopic pieces

770
00:29:31,038 --> 00:29:32,506
somehow ground together.

771
00:29:32,573 --> 00:29:33,707
>> That's probably

772
00:29:33,774 --> 00:29:35,242
a great way to describe it.

773
00:29:35,309 --> 00:29:37,744
It is a kaleidoscopic movie.

774
00:29:37,811 --> 00:29:39,479
But a movie I hope

775
00:29:39,546 --> 00:29:41,348
with some heart.

776
00:29:41,415 --> 00:29:43,083
It's a movie about four people

777
00:29:43,150 --> 00:29:45,285
confronting ideas about

778
00:29:45,352 --> 00:29:47,254
mortality and life,

779
00:29:48,655 --> 00:29:50,791
in one form or another.

780
00:29:51,124 --> 00:29:52,559
>> Not long after "Fast, Cheap

781
00:29:52,626 --> 00:29:55,128
and Out of Control," you got

782
00:29:55,195 --> 00:29:57,531
back toward the death row theme,

783
00:29:57,598 --> 00:29:59,466
but in a somewhat different way

784
00:29:59,533 --> 00:30:00,734
than what you had done

785
00:30:00,801 --> 00:30:02,402
with "Thin Blue Line,"

786
00:30:02,469 --> 00:30:04,037
with "Mr. Death."

787
00:30:04,104 --> 00:30:05,372
This is another, I guess I would

788
00:30:05,439 --> 00:30:06,807
say small person, and yet

789
00:30:06,874 --> 00:30:08,442
he has a way

790
00:30:08,509 --> 00:30:10,444
of walking on the world's stage.

791
00:30:10,511 --> 00:30:12,412
How did you find him?

792
00:30:12,946 --> 00:30:14,982
>> The "New York Times."

793
00:30:15,048 --> 00:30:17,851
Page 1 of the "New York Times."

794
00:30:18,285 --> 00:30:21,154
One of my favorite oxymorons

795
00:30:21,221 --> 00:30:22,956
is painless execution,

796
00:30:23,023 --> 00:30:24,791
taking the ouch

797
00:30:24,858 --> 00:30:26,627
out of the death penalty.

798
00:30:26,693 --> 00:30:28,262
Fred Leuchter appeared in an

799
00:30:28,328 --> 00:30:30,497
article, and the headline was,

800
00:30:30,564 --> 00:30:32,232
"Can Capital Punishment

801
00:30:32,299 --> 00:30:33,967
Be Humane?"

802
00:30:37,204 --> 00:30:39,773
There he was, standing in front

803
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:41,475
of one of his patent-pending

804
00:30:41,542 --> 00:30:43,210
electric chairs.

805
00:30:45,212 --> 00:30:46,880
I read the article

806
00:30:48,182 --> 00:30:50,517
buried deep in the paper.

807
00:30:51,385 --> 00:30:52,920
And very near the end of the

808
00:30:52,986 --> 00:30:54,788
article, a line or two, was

809
00:30:54,855 --> 00:30:56,723
reference made to the fact that

810
00:30:56,790 --> 00:30:58,458
he was a holocaust denier,

811
00:30:58,525 --> 00:30:59,860
and that he had been involved

812
00:30:59,927 --> 00:31:02,262
in this odd report, The Leuchter

813
00:31:02,329 --> 00:31:04,665
Report, which had become

814
00:31:07,901 --> 00:31:11,138
fashionable in neo-Nazi circles.

815
00:31:12,806 --> 00:31:14,074
>> He had been denying the

816
00:31:14,141 --> 00:31:15,742
holocaust.

817
00:31:15,809 --> 00:31:17,177
>> That's correct.

818
00:31:17,244 --> 00:31:19,046
>> But he actually put

819
00:31:19,112 --> 00:31:20,380
scientific, or pseudo-scientific

820
00:31:20,447 --> 00:31:23,116
measures to demonstrate his

821
00:31:23,917 --> 00:31:25,586
theory.

822
00:31:28,355 --> 00:31:30,190
>> One of the most appalling

823
00:31:30,257 --> 00:31:32,025
things is to see science, which

824
00:31:32,092 --> 00:31:34,228
is one of the great constructs

825
00:31:34,294 --> 00:31:37,097
of the human mind, used for the

826
00:31:38,799 --> 00:31:41,435
purpose of selling idiocy.

827
00:31:41,502 --> 00:31:42,903
It's not uncommon, but it's

828
00:31:42,970 --> 00:31:44,638
still appalling.

829
00:31:45,939 --> 00:31:47,174
>> So were you interested in

830
00:31:47,241 --> 00:31:49,710
exposing him in your film?

831
00:31:53,814 --> 00:31:55,482
>> Yes and no.

832
00:31:57,851 --> 00:31:59,419
I'm a Jewish boy

833
00:31:59,486 --> 00:32:00,988
from Long Island.

834
00:32:01,054 --> 00:32:03,857
I never had any reason to doubt

835
00:32:04,925 --> 00:32:07,895
that the holocaust happened.

836
00:32:07,961 --> 00:32:10,030
So why even be interested in

837
00:32:10,097 --> 00:32:12,766
someone like Fred Leuchter?

838
00:32:15,402 --> 00:32:17,638
I would say one of my favorite

839
00:32:17,704 --> 00:32:19,907
things is false believe, people

840
00:32:19,973 --> 00:32:22,009
believing things that are

841
00:32:22,075 --> 00:32:24,077
unutterably false, but they find

842
00:32:24,144 --> 00:32:26,813
a way to believe them anyway.

843
00:32:27,714 --> 00:32:29,416
Fred Leuchter is the perfect

844
00:32:29,483 --> 00:32:32,286
example of this sort of thing.

845
00:32:33,687 --> 00:32:35,556
One thing that really interested

846
00:32:35,622 --> 00:32:38,292
me is what is anti-Semitism?

847
00:32:39,893 --> 00:32:42,696
Here you have a guy who has done

848
00:32:43,096 --> 00:32:45,732
things that, on the face of it,

849
00:32:45,799 --> 00:32:48,135
seem a perfect example of

850
00:32:51,705 --> 00:32:53,707
anti-Semitic stuff.

851
00:32:54,208 --> 00:32:55,909
Denying the holocaust, claiming

852
00:32:55,976 --> 00:32:57,544
that poison gas wasn't used in

853
00:32:57,611 --> 00:32:58,812
Auschwitz, blah, blah, blah,

854
00:32:58,879 --> 00:33:01,114
blah, blah, blah, blah.

855
00:33:04,184 --> 00:33:06,787
At the very least you would say

856
00:33:06,854 --> 00:33:08,455
that this exhibits a certain

857
00:33:08,522 --> 00:33:10,757
insensitivity to Jews,

858
00:33:14,595 --> 00:33:16,263
and to history.

859
00:33:18,599 --> 00:33:20,000
So what the hell is this story

860
00:33:20,067 --> 00:33:21,568
about?

861
00:33:21,635 --> 00:33:23,604
I think that's one question.

862
00:33:23,670 --> 00:33:25,639
There's a question beyond the

863
00:33:25,706 --> 00:33:28,375
question is this true or not.

864
00:33:29,510 --> 00:33:31,578
To me, of course it wasn't true.

865
00:33:31,645 --> 00:33:34,114
That was not to be debated.

866
00:33:38,352 --> 00:33:40,587
Of course, I did go to the

867
00:33:41,088 --> 00:33:44,024
effort, paid lip service, to

868
00:33:44,091 --> 00:33:47,160
showing why Fred's research was

869
00:33:47,227 --> 00:33:50,097
really, really off-base and

870
00:33:50,163 --> 00:33:51,832
stupid.

871
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,035
But that was not at the heart of

872
00:33:55,102 --> 00:33:56,236
the movie.

873
00:33:56,303 --> 00:33:57,871
The heart of the movie is asking

874
00:33:57,938 --> 00:34:00,374
the question, who is this man,

875
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,043
what in the hell is he thinking?

876
00:34:03,110 --> 00:34:04,778
And why?

877
00:34:05,045 --> 00:34:06,980
Is it anti-Semitism?

878
00:34:07,047 --> 00:34:08,982
Is it some kind of hubris?

879
00:34:09,049 --> 00:34:11,985
Is it a way of showing he knows

880
00:34:12,052 --> 00:34:14,721
better than everybody else?

881
00:34:17,157 --> 00:34:18,992
It's interesting.

882
00:34:19,059 --> 00:34:20,427
I am writing a long piece now

883
00:34:20,494 --> 00:34:23,063
for the "New York Times" on a

884
00:34:23,864 --> 00:34:26,533
four-year-old murder case,

885
00:34:27,267 --> 00:34:29,102
a case involving a Green Beret,

886
00:34:29,169 --> 00:34:31,405
Dr. Jeffrey MacDonald.

887
00:34:32,272 --> 00:34:33,941
>> Oh, yes.

888
00:34:34,274 --> 00:34:36,844
>> Now, here's a case that is

889
00:34:38,545 --> 00:34:41,682
really based on pseudo-science.

890
00:34:42,249 --> 00:34:45,252
It's interesting to see experts

891
00:34:45,886 --> 00:34:48,722
take the stand, offer "expert"

892
00:34:48,789 --> 00:34:51,458
testimony, and the horrible

893
00:34:53,327 --> 00:34:56,263
realization that it's really not

894
00:34:56,330 --> 00:34:58,065
science.

895
00:34:58,131 --> 00:34:59,666
It's the veneer of science,

896
00:34:59,733 --> 00:35:01,335
the facade of science.

897
00:35:01,401 --> 00:35:03,103
It's a kind of make-believe

898
00:35:03,170 --> 00:35:04,771
science, like Emily Miller in

899
00:35:04,838 --> 00:35:06,273
"The Thin Blue Line" is a

900
00:35:06,340 --> 00:35:08,408
make-believe detective, going

901
00:35:08,475 --> 00:35:09,676
through the motions, going

902
00:35:09,743 --> 00:35:10,978
through the actions, thinking

903
00:35:11,044 --> 00:35:12,412
that she's actually

904
00:35:12,479 --> 00:35:13,981
investigating something,

905
00:35:14,047 --> 00:35:16,016
when in fact she's completely

906
00:35:16,083 --> 00:35:17,751
delusional.

907
00:35:19,186 --> 00:35:20,454
But here's the question.

908
00:35:20,521 --> 00:35:21,989
Here's the central question.

909
00:35:22,055 --> 00:35:23,590
Are we all like that?

910
00:35:23,657 --> 00:35:25,425
Are we all just completely out

911
00:35:25,492 --> 00:35:27,160
of our minds?

912
00:35:27,895 --> 00:35:29,830
>> Well, that is how we find

913
00:35:29,897 --> 00:35:31,565
films interesting, isn't it?

914
00:35:31,632 --> 00:35:33,467
Or, to put it in '70's terms,

915
00:35:33,534 --> 00:35:35,269
how we relate to them,

916
00:35:35,335 --> 00:35:36,770
is am I like that, or

917
00:35:36,837 --> 00:35:38,539
in what way am I like that?

918
00:35:38,605 --> 00:35:40,274
>> Absolutely.

919
00:35:40,340 --> 00:35:42,009
Am I like that?

920
00:35:42,943 --> 00:35:44,111
And there's, of course,

921
00:35:44,178 --> 00:35:46,113
I hope I'm not like that.

922
00:35:46,180 --> 00:35:47,414
>> And at the end,

923
00:35:47,481 --> 00:35:48,815
of course I'm not like that.

924
00:35:48,882 --> 00:35:49,883
>> Of course I'm not like that.

925
00:35:49,950 --> 00:35:51,118
How could I possibly be like

926
00:35:51,185 --> 00:35:52,219
that?

927
00:35:52,286 --> 00:35:53,353
>> Let's see

928
00:35:53,420 --> 00:35:54,588
some of "Mr. Death."

929
00:35:54,655 --> 00:35:56,056
This was from 1999, and see

930
00:35:56,123 --> 00:35:58,025
some of the techniques you used,

931
00:35:58,091 --> 00:35:59,359
not just to talk about the

932
00:35:59,426 --> 00:36:00,727
holocaust denial so much,

933
00:36:00,794 --> 00:36:02,229
as about this electric chair,

934
00:36:02,296 --> 00:36:03,664
or improved electric chair.

935
00:36:03,730 --> 00:36:04,798
>> Indeed.

936
00:36:04,865 --> 00:36:05,966
>> That Mr. Death

937
00:36:06,033 --> 00:36:07,434
was perfecting.

938
00:36:07,501 --> 00:36:09,169
>> Yes.

939
00:36:09,870 --> 00:36:11,371
>> That was back in '89,

940
00:36:11,438 --> 00:36:13,106
I believe it was.

941
00:36:13,507 --> 00:36:14,741
At that time I was still in

942
00:36:14,808 --> 00:36:16,476
school.

943
00:36:16,877 --> 00:36:18,378
I just remember coming home,

944
00:36:18,445 --> 00:36:19,847
what is this big box in the

945
00:36:19,913 --> 00:36:21,582
front yard?

946
00:36:25,485 --> 00:36:27,154
It's an electric chair.

947
00:36:27,221 --> 00:36:28,889
Hmmm.

948
00:36:31,959 --> 00:36:33,994
Fred and my uncle were here,

949
00:36:34,061 --> 00:36:35,195
you know, he'd come out

950
00:36:35,262 --> 00:36:36,763
with the crowbars.

951
00:36:36,830 --> 00:36:38,398
They had to break the box open,

952
00:36:38,465 --> 00:36:40,901
unscrew all the parts and

953
00:36:40,968 --> 00:36:42,236
there's an electric chair

954
00:36:42,302 --> 00:36:45,005
sitting in the front yard.

955
00:36:45,072 --> 00:36:46,206
It was just very unusual,

956
00:36:46,273 --> 00:36:47,307
something that I wasn't

957
00:36:47,374 --> 00:36:48,675
expecting.

958
00:36:48,742 --> 00:36:50,244
I guess Fred was expecting it.

959
00:36:50,310 --> 00:36:51,979
(laughs)

960
00:36:55,849 --> 00:36:57,117
It's very difficult

961
00:36:57,184 --> 00:36:58,919
getting up and down those stairs

962
00:36:58,986 --> 00:37:00,420
with a couple hundred pound

963
00:37:00,487 --> 00:37:02,289
piece of oak chair.

964
00:37:04,591 --> 00:37:05,826
Of course, before we even

965
00:37:05,893 --> 00:37:07,060
brought it inside,

966
00:37:07,127 --> 00:37:08,228
had to have Fred sit down in it,

967
00:37:08,295 --> 00:37:09,963
strapped him in.

968
00:37:10,664 --> 00:37:12,332
I said no thanks.

969
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,315
I had processed a couple

970
00:37:28,382 --> 00:37:29,616
of rolls of film;

971
00:37:29,683 --> 00:37:30,784
photos that I took

972
00:37:30,851 --> 00:37:32,819
for engineering purposes.

973
00:37:32,886 --> 00:37:34,121
Detailed stuff, so you know how

974
00:37:34,188 --> 00:37:35,589
it looked before you took it

975
00:37:35,656 --> 00:37:37,324
apart.

976
00:37:38,358 --> 00:37:39,293
I went through it and I said,

977
00:37:39,359 --> 00:37:40,360
"Wait a minute."

978
00:37:40,427 --> 00:37:42,095
I went back and,

979
00:37:42,162 --> 00:37:44,164
what the hell is this?

980
00:37:45,799 --> 00:37:47,601
We had a magnifier,

981
00:37:48,135 --> 00:37:49,670
and we were trying to figure out

982
00:37:49,736 --> 00:37:51,405
what was there.

983
00:37:51,972 --> 00:37:53,273
We saw what appeared to be

984
00:37:53,340 --> 00:37:55,242
more than one image.

985
00:37:56,910 --> 00:37:58,912
As far as I understand it,

986
00:37:58,979 --> 00:38:01,949
certain objects give off auras.

987
00:38:02,015 --> 00:38:03,483
And some objects that have been

988
00:38:03,550 --> 00:38:04,952
exposed to high intensity

989
00:38:05,018 --> 00:38:06,453
electromagnetic fields absorb

990
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:07,955
some of that energy and would

991
00:38:08,021 --> 00:38:09,690
give off an aura.

992
00:38:11,391 --> 00:38:12,459
I don't know what we

993
00:38:12,526 --> 00:38:14,328
photographed.

994
00:38:14,394 --> 00:38:15,495
We don't know if we photographed

995
00:38:15,562 --> 00:38:16,763
an entity.

996
00:38:16,830 --> 00:38:17,965
I mean,

997
00:38:18,031 --> 00:38:20,334
we don't know what's there.

998
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,202
It may still reside in the parts

999
00:38:22,269 --> 00:38:24,404
that are in Tennessee.

1000
00:38:25,105 --> 00:38:26,406
Or when I tore the chair apart

1001
00:38:26,473 --> 00:38:28,108
maybe it was freed.

1002
00:38:28,175 --> 00:38:29,843
I don't know.

1003
00:38:31,144 --> 00:38:32,446
That's assuming there was

1004
00:38:32,513 --> 00:38:35,215
something there to start with.

1005
00:38:43,156 --> 00:38:45,659
>> This takes us beyond the

1006
00:38:45,726 --> 00:38:47,895
realm of would you say, kind of

1007
00:38:47,961 --> 00:38:49,429
the political issue of capital

1008
00:38:49,496 --> 00:38:50,797
punishment, into the realm of

1009
00:38:50,864 --> 00:38:52,132
weird.

1010
00:38:52,199 --> 00:38:53,700
I mean, with this aural

1011
00:38:53,767 --> 00:38:56,336
photography, the image of,

1012
00:38:57,838 --> 00:39:00,674
presumably, an executed convict

1013
00:39:00,741 --> 00:39:02,543
in the chair.

1014
00:39:02,609 --> 00:39:04,945
How did you tap into that?

1015
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,316
Did he just willingly get into

1016
00:39:09,383 --> 00:39:11,051
that discussion?

1017
00:39:13,554 --> 00:39:14,788
>> Yes, willingly got into that

1018
00:39:14,855 --> 00:39:16,523
discussion.

1019
00:39:17,891 --> 00:39:20,761
The story of this photograph,

1020
00:39:20,827 --> 00:39:23,230
his claim, of course, is that

1021
00:39:23,297 --> 00:39:24,765
he's taking a photograph and he

1022
00:39:24,831 --> 00:39:27,401
sees ghosts, or ghost-like

1023
00:39:28,202 --> 00:39:31,338
figures that are floating about.

1024
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:34,374
>> The electric chair.

1025
00:39:34,441 --> 00:39:35,542
>> The Tennessee electric chair,

1026
00:39:35,609 --> 00:39:37,878
the ghosts of those who were

1027
00:39:37,945 --> 00:39:40,614
electrocuted in that chair.

1028
00:39:42,282 --> 00:39:43,817
Now, do I believe

1029
00:39:43,884 --> 00:39:45,485
in this sort of thing?

1030
00:39:45,552 --> 00:39:47,221
Sorry, I don't.

1031
00:39:49,122 --> 00:39:51,024
But what I was fascinated by,

1032
00:39:51,091 --> 00:39:53,894
and it becomes the central theme

1033
00:39:53,961 --> 00:39:55,996
of the entire movie.

1034
00:39:56,063 --> 00:39:58,365
You could consider this a kind

1035
00:39:58,432 --> 00:40:01,368
of mini film inside of the film,

1036
00:40:01,435 --> 00:40:03,270
is the question of what in hell

1037
00:40:03,337 --> 00:40:04,271
does Fred believe?

1038
00:40:04,338 --> 00:40:05,706
What's going on in his head?

1039
00:40:05,772 --> 00:40:08,609
Does he believe in this stuff?

1040
00:40:08,675 --> 00:40:10,811
Is this just some kind of

1041
00:40:10,878 --> 00:40:13,547
Vaudeville act, a charades?

1042
00:40:15,482 --> 00:40:17,084
And how were these photographs

1043
00:40:17,150 --> 00:40:18,819
taken?

1044
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,523
They seem so obviously produced

1045
00:40:22,589 --> 00:40:24,591
through double exposure.

1046
00:40:24,658 --> 00:40:27,561
They seem to be hoaxes, frauds.

1047
00:40:28,161 --> 00:40:29,463
Did he commit the fraud?

1048
00:40:29,530 --> 00:40:30,898
Did someone else commit the

1049
00:40:30,964 --> 00:40:32,132
fraud?

1050
00:40:32,199 --> 00:40:33,734
Did he commit the fraud and then

1051
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:35,169
conveniently forget that he had

1052
00:40:35,235 --> 00:40:37,037
committed a fraud?

1053
00:40:37,704 --> 00:40:39,273
To me, it raised all kinds of

1054
00:40:39,339 --> 00:40:42,242
crazy questions about Fred and

1055
00:40:42,776 --> 00:40:44,978
his capacity to believe

1056
00:40:45,045 --> 00:40:46,413
anything.

1057
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:47,548
I think there are many of us,

1058
00:40:47,614 --> 00:40:49,216
maybe all of us, that are

1059
00:40:49,283 --> 00:40:51,618
capable of believing anything.

1060
00:40:51,685 --> 00:40:53,287
All you have to do is look at

1061
00:40:53,353 --> 00:40:55,956
politics at the current moment,

1062
00:40:56,023 --> 00:40:57,524
or probably at any moment in

1063
00:40:57,591 --> 00:40:59,860
history, to convince yourself

1064
00:40:59,927 --> 00:41:03,030
that people's ability to believe

1065
00:41:03,096 --> 00:41:04,431
is unfettered.

1066
00:41:04,498 --> 00:41:05,999
People can believe in anything.

1067
00:41:06,066 --> 00:41:07,167
It doesn't matter how ridiculous

1068
00:41:07,234 --> 00:41:08,335
it is.

1069
00:41:08,402 --> 00:41:09,670
It doesn't matter how pernicious

1070
00:41:09,736 --> 00:41:11,338
it is.

1071
00:41:11,405 --> 00:41:13,540
People can believe it.

1072
00:41:13,607 --> 00:41:15,008
And maybe that's the scariest

1073
00:41:15,075 --> 00:41:17,344
fact about people, the scariest

1074
00:41:17,411 --> 00:41:19,079
fact of all.

1075
00:41:20,514 --> 00:41:23,016
>> That certainly comes into

1076
00:41:23,083 --> 00:41:24,551
your Oscar-winning film,

1077
00:41:24,618 --> 00:41:26,286
"Fog of War."

1078
00:41:26,553 --> 00:41:27,621
Self-delusion,

1079
00:41:27,688 --> 00:41:29,256
powers of self-deception,

1080
00:41:29,323 --> 00:41:30,257
wouldn't you say?

1081
00:41:30,324 --> 00:41:31,358
>> Yes.

1082
00:41:31,425 --> 00:41:32,693
>> When you interviewed

1083
00:41:32,759 --> 00:41:34,094
Robert McNamara all those years

1084
00:41:34,161 --> 00:41:35,529
after the Vietnam War,

1085
00:41:35,596 --> 00:41:37,164
that he was probably

1086
00:41:37,231 --> 00:41:39,366
the main architect of?

1087
00:41:40,267 --> 00:41:41,602
>> This is an important

1088
00:41:41,668 --> 00:41:43,136
question.

1089
00:41:43,203 --> 00:41:44,404
He is always described, I mean

1090
00:41:44,471 --> 00:41:46,673
if you read a thousand popular

1091
00:41:46,740 --> 00:41:48,609
accounts of the Kennedy and

1092
00:41:48,675 --> 00:41:51,445
Johnson years, as likely as not,

1093
00:41:51,512 --> 00:41:53,614
McNamara would be described as

1094
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:55,415
the principal architect of the

1095
00:41:55,482 --> 00:41:57,150
Vietnam War.

1096
00:41:57,818 --> 00:41:59,386
A war, by the way, that I

1097
00:41:59,453 --> 00:42:01,622
demonstrated against.

1098
00:42:01,688 --> 00:42:03,423
>> In Wisconsin, I imagine.

1099
00:42:03,490 --> 00:42:04,725
>> Not in Wisconsin--

1100
00:42:04,791 --> 00:42:06,226
In this city!

1101
00:42:06,293 --> 00:42:08,529
In 1969, on Bascom Hill.

1102
00:42:15,302 --> 00:42:16,637
I don't believe he was the chief

1103
00:42:16,703 --> 00:42:18,705
architect of the war.

1104
00:42:20,073 --> 00:42:21,608
This will be something endlessly

1105
00:42:21,675 --> 00:42:23,177
debated by historians.

1106
00:42:23,243 --> 00:42:25,112
I believe that the real

1107
00:42:25,179 --> 00:42:27,881
architect was Lyndon Johnson.

1108
00:42:27,948 --> 00:42:29,316
>> Is this a conclusion you came

1109
00:42:29,383 --> 00:42:31,552
to after interviewing McNamara?

1110
00:42:31,618 --> 00:42:33,086
>> It's a conclusion that I

1111
00:42:33,153 --> 00:42:34,421
came to, not just simply

1112
00:42:34,488 --> 00:42:36,190
after interviewing McNamara,

1113
00:42:36,256 --> 00:42:38,058
but investigating

1114
00:42:38,825 --> 00:42:41,495
and researching this story.

1115
00:42:44,364 --> 00:42:46,500
I don't think McNamara is the

1116
00:42:46,567 --> 00:42:48,702
fall guy, by any means.

1117
00:42:49,469 --> 00:42:50,904
He was an active participant

1118
00:42:50,971 --> 00:42:52,472
in all of this.

1119
00:42:52,539 --> 00:42:54,174
But the main impetus

1120
00:42:54,241 --> 00:42:56,043
for the war I do not believe

1121
00:42:56,109 --> 00:42:58,045
came from McNamara.

1122
00:42:58,111 --> 00:43:00,180
This is also a really important

1123
00:43:00,247 --> 00:43:02,516
and interesting question, a

1124
00:43:02,583 --> 00:43:05,152
question about morality,

1125
00:43:05,219 --> 00:43:08,355
a deep question about morality.

1126
00:43:08,422 --> 00:43:10,991
If you serve a president who

1127
00:43:11,525 --> 00:43:14,661
endorses policies that you don't

1128
00:43:15,762 --> 00:43:18,365
agree with, what do you do?

1129
00:43:18,432 --> 00:43:20,334
You protest within?

1130
00:43:20,634 --> 00:43:22,302
Do you quit?

1131
00:43:22,803 --> 00:43:24,771
If you go public, exactly what

1132
00:43:24,838 --> 00:43:27,841
is the correct course of action.

1133
00:43:29,343 --> 00:43:31,144
And it's not so simple.

1134
00:43:31,211 --> 00:43:32,713
It's not as though these

1135
00:43:32,779 --> 00:43:34,181
questions have easy answers,

1136
00:43:34,248 --> 00:43:36,583
where you can look up in a book

1137
00:43:36,650 --> 00:43:39,019
that'll give you some algorithm

1138
00:43:39,086 --> 00:43:40,387
for deciding one way or the

1139
00:43:40,454 --> 00:43:42,022
other.

1140
00:43:42,089 --> 00:43:43,223
They are vexing, perhaps

1141
00:43:43,290 --> 00:43:45,392
impenetrable moral questions.

1142
00:43:45,459 --> 00:43:47,794
>> How did you get McNamara

1143
00:43:47,861 --> 00:43:50,464
to reveal so much of his regret

1144
00:43:50,531 --> 00:43:52,866
and doubt about that war?

1145
00:43:53,267 --> 00:43:55,102
>> Well, he lives in a world

1146
00:43:55,169 --> 00:43:58,071
of regret and doubt, to be sure.

1147
00:43:58,739 --> 00:44:01,642
I'm always amazed when people,

1148
00:44:02,709 --> 00:44:05,379
having seen the film, ask me,

1149
00:44:06,346 --> 00:44:09,216
does McNamara have regrets about

1150
00:44:09,283 --> 00:44:12,085
the role he played in Vietnam?

1151
00:44:14,288 --> 00:44:16,523
Well, gee, gosh, golly,

1152
00:44:17,257 --> 00:44:19,993
the entire movie is about that.

1153
00:44:20,060 --> 00:44:21,795
The entire movie is about

1154
00:44:21,862 --> 00:44:23,530
his regret.

1155
00:44:23,864 --> 00:44:24,998
My wife sometimes calls him

1156
00:44:25,065 --> 00:44:27,901
the Flying Dutchman in the sense

1157
00:44:27,968 --> 00:44:29,903
that here's a character

1158
00:44:29,970 --> 00:44:31,672
traveling the world hoping

1159
00:44:31,738 --> 00:44:34,208
for some kind of redemption.

1160
00:44:34,274 --> 00:44:36,076
A redemption which, I think

1161
00:44:36,143 --> 00:44:38,612
in his heart he would like,

1162
00:44:39,379 --> 00:44:40,714
but perhaps feels he doesn't

1163
00:44:40,781 --> 00:44:42,049
deserve.

1164
00:44:42,115 --> 00:44:44,384
He's a very complex, immensely

1165
00:44:44,451 --> 00:44:46,186
fascinating character.

1166
00:44:46,253 --> 00:44:49,256
I was very lucky, very fortunate

1167
00:44:51,091 --> 00:44:53,660
to have had the opportunity

1168
00:44:54,995 --> 00:44:56,563
to interview him,

1169
00:44:56,630 --> 00:44:57,865
to make this movie.

1170
00:44:57,931 --> 00:44:59,333
A once in a lifetime

1171
00:44:59,399 --> 00:45:00,667
opportunity.

1172
00:45:00,734 --> 00:45:01,835
>> Maybe your timing was just

1173
00:45:01,902 --> 00:45:03,203
right in terms of his thinking

1174
00:45:03,270 --> 00:45:04,938
on the issue.

1175
00:45:08,375 --> 00:45:11,278
>> You look back on a successful

1176
00:45:11,345 --> 00:45:13,714
project, and you think, well,

1177
00:45:13,780 --> 00:45:15,616
how did I get this timing right?

1178
00:45:15,682 --> 00:45:18,352
How did this really work out?

1179
00:45:19,486 --> 00:45:21,655
Because there's so many ways

1180
00:45:21,722 --> 00:45:23,624
in which it could have

1181
00:45:23,690 --> 00:45:25,359
not worked out.

1182
00:45:25,659 --> 00:45:27,094
There's so many ways in which it

1183
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:28,962
could have failed.

1184
00:45:29,263 --> 00:45:32,065
McNamara came in on a Tuesday.

1185
00:45:34,067 --> 00:45:35,602
Two or three days before, there

1186
00:45:35,669 --> 00:45:37,004
was an article in the "New York

1187
00:45:37,070 --> 00:45:38,739
Times" Sunday magazine on Bob

1188
00:45:38,805 --> 00:45:41,608
Kerrey, who had been a senator

1189
00:45:42,576 --> 00:45:45,245
from Kansas, a Medal of Honor

1190
00:45:45,746 --> 00:45:48,649
winner, a Vietnam hero, who had

1191
00:45:50,117 --> 00:45:52,686
been accused of war crimes.

1192
00:45:53,954 --> 00:45:57,057
And McNamara clearly hadn't read

1193
00:45:57,124 --> 00:45:58,792
this article.

1194
00:46:02,296 --> 00:46:04,431
I mentioned it to him.

1195
00:46:04,498 --> 00:46:05,999
This is just shortly after he

1196
00:46:06,066 --> 00:46:08,202
arrived in the studio.

1197
00:46:09,336 --> 00:46:11,505
He got very angry, saying that

1198
00:46:11,572 --> 00:46:14,041
accusing Bob Kerrey of war

1199
00:46:14,741 --> 00:46:16,410
crimes was misplaced.

1200
00:46:16,476 --> 00:46:18,045
If anyone should be accused of

1201
00:46:18,111 --> 00:46:20,214
war crimes, it should be him.

1202
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,950
He was Secretary of Defense.

1203
00:46:25,118 --> 00:46:26,453
A very powerful, surprising

1204
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:28,188
statement.

1205
00:46:29,056 --> 00:46:30,357
We started the interview, and

1206
00:46:30,424 --> 00:46:32,326
within a couple of minutes, we

1207
00:46:32,392 --> 00:46:33,694
talked about the fire bombing in

1208
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:35,229
Japan, and his role.

1209
00:46:35,295 --> 00:46:37,464
This was something unknown.

1210
00:46:37,531 --> 00:46:38,699
He hadn't written about it

1211
00:46:38,765 --> 00:46:40,434
in his biography.

1212
00:46:41,068 --> 00:46:42,736
>> In 1945...

1213
00:46:43,070 --> 00:46:44,538
>> He was a 27-year-old

1214
00:46:44,605 --> 00:46:46,273
Lt. Colonel

1215
00:46:47,241 --> 00:46:49,243
in the Army Air Force.

1216
00:46:50,277 --> 00:46:51,612
>> Somehow connected to

1217
00:46:51,678 --> 00:46:53,547
Curtis LeMay, I would assume.

1218
00:46:53,614 --> 00:46:55,415
>> Connected to Curtis LeMay

1219
00:46:55,482 --> 00:46:57,818
and to LeMay's superior,

1220
00:46:58,218 --> 00:46:59,853
General Norstad.

1221
00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:01,522
>> And later, LeMay, of course,

1222
00:47:01,588 --> 00:47:02,789
played a prominent role

1223
00:47:02,856 --> 00:47:04,258
in the Vietnam War.

1224
00:47:04,324 --> 00:47:05,859
>> One of the odd things is when

1225
00:47:05,926 --> 00:47:07,394
McNamara, it's the most powerful

1226
00:47:07,461 --> 00:47:09,029
thing in the "Fog of War,"

1227
00:47:09,096 --> 00:47:11,765
says that if our side had lost

1228
00:47:12,432 --> 00:47:15,269
World War II, he would've been

1229
00:47:15,335 --> 00:47:17,237
tried along with many other

1230
00:47:17,304 --> 00:47:19,640
people as a war criminal.

1231
00:47:20,908 --> 00:47:22,242
The fire bombing in Japan

1232
00:47:22,309 --> 00:47:24,645
is now nearly forgotten.

1233
00:47:25,712 --> 00:47:27,047
>> Because of the atomic bombs.

1234
00:47:27,114 --> 00:47:28,415
>> We think of

1235
00:47:28,482 --> 00:47:30,484
the two atomic bombs.

1236
00:47:31,718 --> 00:47:34,188
LeMay, one of the fiercest

1237
00:47:35,322 --> 00:47:38,325
proponents of atomic weaponry,

1238
00:47:39,493 --> 00:47:42,129
and an enthusiast, you might

1239
00:47:42,196 --> 00:47:44,531
even say, for atomic war,

1240
00:47:47,234 --> 00:47:49,803
was not in favor of using the

1241
00:47:50,470 --> 00:47:52,172
atomic bomb in Japan, because he

1242
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:54,341
thought he had already turned

1243
00:47:54,408 --> 00:47:56,443
Japan into an ashtray.

1244
00:47:56,510 --> 00:47:57,811
The fire bombing was

1245
00:47:57,878 --> 00:47:59,680
so effective, it displaced...

1246
00:47:59,746 --> 00:48:00,848
>> Widespread.

1247
00:48:00,914 --> 00:48:02,049
>> Yes, it destroyed

1248
00:48:02,115 --> 00:48:03,617
city after city after city.

1249
00:48:03,684 --> 00:48:05,385
It killed literally millions

1250
00:48:05,452 --> 00:48:06,787
upon millions of people and

1251
00:48:06,854 --> 00:48:09,323
displaced millions more.

1252
00:48:10,290 --> 00:48:12,726
LeMay's view was, why bother,

1253
00:48:12,793 --> 00:48:14,595
we've already done

1254
00:48:16,029 --> 00:48:17,698
the work.

1255
00:48:21,768 --> 00:48:23,504
So, yes, that was

1256
00:48:23,570 --> 00:48:25,172
a very powerful moment for me,

1257
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:26,673
and a very powerful

1258
00:48:26,740 --> 00:48:27,841
moment in the film.

1259
00:48:27,908 --> 00:48:29,042
>> I think one of the other most

1260
00:48:29,109 --> 00:48:31,111
powerful moments is this one,

1261
00:48:31,178 --> 00:48:32,980
where McNamara is talking to

1262
00:48:33,046 --> 00:48:35,182
a former Vietnamese adversary.

1263
00:48:35,249 --> 00:48:36,717
And you really get the

1264
00:48:36,783 --> 00:48:39,653
impression in this short scene

1265
00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:42,289
that McNamara, and the U.S.

1266
00:48:43,056 --> 00:48:44,992
by extension, got it all wrong,

1267
00:48:45,058 --> 00:48:46,326
in terms of the motive

1268
00:48:46,393 --> 00:48:48,295
of the Vietnamese in that war.

1269
00:48:48,362 --> 00:48:49,596
Let's look at this clip

1270
00:48:49,663 --> 00:48:50,998
from "The Fog of War."

1271
00:48:51,064 --> 00:48:52,733
>> Yes.

1272
00:49:03,010 --> 00:49:05,812
>> There aren't many examples

1273
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:08,115
in which you bring

1274
00:49:08,182 --> 00:49:10,984
two former enemies together,

1275
00:49:11,451 --> 00:49:13,554
at the highest levels, and

1276
00:49:13,620 --> 00:49:16,423
discuss what might have been.

1277
00:49:18,525 --> 00:49:20,961
I formed the hypothesis that

1278
00:49:21,028 --> 00:49:22,563
each of us could have achieved

1279
00:49:22,629 --> 00:49:24,198
our objectives without

1280
00:49:24,264 --> 00:49:26,733
the terrible loss of life.

1281
00:49:27,401 --> 00:49:29,036
And I wanted to test that

1282
00:49:29,102 --> 00:49:31,004
by going to Vietnam.

1283
00:49:34,041 --> 00:49:36,443
The former Foreign Minister

1284
00:49:36,510 --> 00:49:38,178
of Vietnam, a wonderful man

1285
00:49:38,245 --> 00:49:40,047
named Thach said,

1286
00:49:40,113 --> 00:49:42,349
"You're totally wrong.

1287
00:49:43,050 --> 00:49:44,318
We were fighting

1288
00:49:44,384 --> 00:49:45,652
for our independence.

1289
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:46,887
You were fighting

1290
00:49:46,954 --> 00:49:48,622
to enslave us."

1291
00:49:49,423 --> 00:49:50,891
We almost came to blows.

1292
00:49:50,958 --> 00:49:53,760
That was noon on the first day.

1293
00:49:54,228 --> 00:49:56,096
"Do you mean to say it was not

1294
00:49:56,163 --> 00:49:57,831
a tragedy for you,

1295
00:49:59,066 --> 00:50:01,301
when you lost 3,400,000

1296
00:50:01,902 --> 00:50:03,871
Vietnamese killed,

1297
00:50:03,937 --> 00:50:05,372
which on our population base

1298
00:50:05,439 --> 00:50:06,707
is the equivalent

1299
00:50:06,773 --> 00:50:08,108
of 27 million Americans?

1300
00:50:08,175 --> 00:50:09,743
What did you accomplish?

1301
00:50:09,810 --> 00:50:11,111
You didn't get any more than we

1302
00:50:11,178 --> 00:50:12,646
were willing to give you

1303
00:50:12,713 --> 00:50:13,981
at the beginning of the war.

1304
00:50:14,047 --> 00:50:15,115
You could have had the whole

1305
00:50:15,182 --> 00:50:16,483
damn thing: independence,

1306
00:50:16,550 --> 00:50:18,352
unification."

1307
00:50:18,418 --> 00:50:19,786
"Mr. McNamara, You must never

1308
00:50:19,853 --> 00:50:21,321
have read a history book.

1309
00:50:21,388 --> 00:50:23,056
If you'd had, you'd know we

1310
00:50:23,123 --> 00:50:25,092
weren't pawns of the Chinese

1311
00:50:25,158 --> 00:50:26,827
or the Russians.

1312
00:50:27,094 --> 00:50:28,629
McNamara, didn't you know that?

1313
00:50:28,695 --> 00:50:30,264
Don't you understand that we

1314
00:50:30,330 --> 00:50:31,532
have been fighting the Chinese

1315
00:50:31,598 --> 00:50:33,033
for 1,000 years?

1316
00:50:33,100 --> 00:50:34,434
We were fighting

1317
00:50:34,501 --> 00:50:36,336
for our independence.

1318
00:50:36,403 --> 00:50:37,471
And we would fight

1319
00:50:37,538 --> 00:50:38,438
to the last man.

1320
00:50:38,505 --> 00:50:39,740
And we were determined to do so.

1321
00:50:39,806 --> 00:50:40,874
And no amount of bombing,

1322
00:50:40,941 --> 00:50:42,376
no amount of U.S. pressure

1323
00:50:42,442 --> 00:50:45,112
would ever have stopped us."

1324
00:50:46,713 --> 00:50:48,215
>> Is that Robert McNamara

1325
00:50:48,282 --> 00:50:49,783
saying that the Vietnam War

1326
00:50:49,850 --> 00:50:51,218
was a mistake,

1327
00:50:51,285 --> 00:50:52,886
that it was unnecessary

1328
00:50:52,953 --> 00:50:55,189
for the U.S. interests?

1329
00:50:55,756 --> 00:50:57,424
In that shot?

1330
00:50:58,058 --> 00:51:00,861
>> Interesting for me to think

1331
00:51:01,595 --> 00:51:04,598
about what McNamara is saying in

1332
00:51:08,101 --> 00:51:11,004
1968 and 1969, and the lectures

1333
00:51:12,206 --> 00:51:13,774
of Harvey Goldberg

1334
00:51:13,841 --> 00:51:15,509
on this campus.

1335
00:51:16,210 --> 00:51:18,545
One of the points that was

1336
00:51:18,979 --> 00:51:20,414
consistently made was that

1337
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:22,850
Ho Chi Minh was a patriot first,

1338
00:51:22,916 --> 00:51:24,818
a Communist second.

1339
00:51:25,319 --> 00:51:27,020
And that he had come to America

1340
00:51:27,087 --> 00:51:28,422
because he had been

1341
00:51:28,488 --> 00:51:30,724
so influenced by our own

1342
00:51:31,124 --> 00:51:32,793
Bill of Rights and

1343
00:51:33,327 --> 00:51:36,163
Declaration of Independence.

1344
00:51:36,230 --> 00:51:38,465
And we had rejected him.

1345
00:51:42,769 --> 00:51:45,672
It's a very sad story about how

1346
00:51:45,739 --> 00:51:47,741
our preconceptions,

1347
00:51:48,308 --> 00:51:50,210
our various beliefs

1348
00:51:50,777 --> 00:51:53,680
actually lead to catastrophe.

1349
00:51:56,984 --> 00:51:59,052
I mean this is a catastrophe,

1350
00:51:59,119 --> 00:52:02,356
58,000 American soldiers killed.

1351
00:52:03,290 --> 00:52:05,192
The estimates vary,

1352
00:52:06,059 --> 00:52:08,729
2.5 or 3 million Vietnamese.

1353
00:52:10,864 --> 00:52:13,000
This is a catastrophe.

1354
00:52:13,834 --> 00:52:15,135
There's no other way

1355
00:52:15,202 --> 00:52:17,037
to describe it.

1356
00:52:17,104 --> 00:52:19,773
And its effect on America and

1357
00:52:24,077 --> 00:52:26,980
our belief in our own democracy

1358
00:52:28,248 --> 00:52:29,783
was strained.

1359
00:52:29,850 --> 00:52:31,118
I'm very proud

1360
00:52:31,185 --> 00:52:32,486
to be an American.

1361
00:52:32,553 --> 00:52:35,022
I consider myself a patriot,

1362
00:52:35,088 --> 00:52:37,090
whatever that means.

1363
00:52:37,457 --> 00:52:39,793
But at the time of the war,

1364
00:52:40,127 --> 00:52:42,095
to me, the patriotic course

1365
00:52:42,162 --> 00:52:44,064
was objecting to it.

1366
00:52:44,932 --> 00:52:46,366
I'm very proud to have been part

1367
00:52:46,433 --> 00:52:47,768
of those demonstrations.

1368
00:52:47,835 --> 00:52:49,036
McNamara knows that.

1369
00:52:49,102 --> 00:52:50,370
I would tell him, you know,

1370
00:52:50,437 --> 00:52:52,339
I demonstrated against the war.

1371
00:52:52,406 --> 00:52:53,440
Well, so did all of his

1372
00:52:53,507 --> 00:52:54,608
children.

1373
00:52:54,675 --> 00:52:55,909
>> Is that right?

1374
00:52:55,976 --> 00:52:57,177
>> Yes.

1375
00:52:57,244 --> 00:52:58,545
He was estranged from his three

1376
00:52:58,612 --> 00:52:59,746
children for many, many,

1377
00:52:59,813 --> 00:53:01,248
many years.

1378
00:53:01,315 --> 00:53:02,516
>> Is that kind of

1379
00:53:02,583 --> 00:53:03,817
self-perception also the theme

1380
00:53:03,884 --> 00:53:05,052
in "Standard Operating

1381
00:53:05,118 --> 00:53:06,787
Procedure"?

1382
00:53:10,891 --> 00:53:12,559
>> Uh, yes and...

1383
00:53:14,628 --> 00:53:16,997
Another theme, the theme

1384
00:53:17,064 --> 00:53:19,199
of photography and how

1385
00:53:22,069 --> 00:53:24,471
we can be given a false idea

1386
00:53:24,538 --> 00:53:27,007
about the world through images,

1387
00:53:27,074 --> 00:53:28,275
something that endlessly

1388
00:53:28,342 --> 00:53:29,676
interests me.

1389
00:53:29,743 --> 00:53:30,744
>> A false idea?

1390
00:53:30,811 --> 00:53:32,112
I would think you would've

1391
00:53:32,179 --> 00:53:34,248
said a truer idea, given the

1392
00:53:34,314 --> 00:53:35,849
photography that came out of

1393
00:53:35,916 --> 00:53:39,152
"Standard Operating Procedure."

1394
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:41,388
>> Like truth in general,

1395
00:53:41,455 --> 00:53:42,789
truth is never handed to you

1396
00:53:42,856 --> 00:53:44,525
on a platter.

1397
00:53:44,925 --> 00:53:46,560
It's not somehow you arrive at

1398
00:53:46,627 --> 00:53:48,028
truth by taking a picture or

1399
00:53:48,095 --> 00:53:49,997
writing a sentence.

1400
00:53:50,764 --> 00:53:52,432
It's a search, a quest.

1401
00:53:52,499 --> 00:53:54,835
>> You do mention in the film

1402
00:53:54,902 --> 00:53:56,537
that some of those images, for

1403
00:53:56,603 --> 00:53:58,839
example, were cropped to remove

1404
00:53:58,906 --> 00:54:00,774
certain other people who were

1405
00:54:00,841 --> 00:54:02,342
party to the goings on at the

1406
00:54:02,409 --> 00:54:04,077
prison in Iraq.

1407
00:54:06,046 --> 00:54:07,981
>> What happened goes so far

1408
00:54:08,048 --> 00:54:10,517
beyond that sort of thing.

1409
00:54:12,519 --> 00:54:13,787
People will say, well,

1410
00:54:13,854 --> 00:54:15,522
they know better.

1411
00:54:15,923 --> 00:54:17,224
It wasn't just these seven bad

1412
00:54:17,291 --> 00:54:18,759
apples, that we're responsible

1413
00:54:18,825 --> 00:54:20,227
for all of the bad things

1414
00:54:20,294 --> 00:54:21,995
that happened in Abu Ghraib.

1415
00:54:22,062 --> 00:54:25,032
I believe that those photographs

1416
00:54:25,098 --> 00:54:27,901
got George W. Bush re-elected

1417
00:54:29,503 --> 00:54:31,171
in 2004.

1418
00:54:31,772 --> 00:54:34,541
This is a somewhat heretical

1419
00:54:34,608 --> 00:54:36,677
view, because didn't Bush

1420
00:54:36,743 --> 00:54:39,546
himself say Abu Ghraib was the

1421
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:41,782
worst disaster of his

1422
00:54:41,849 --> 00:54:43,517
presidency?

1423
00:54:43,851 --> 00:54:45,018
But here's how I think it

1424
00:54:45,085 --> 00:54:46,753
worked.

1425
00:54:48,488 --> 00:54:50,924
The pictures are released,

1426
00:54:50,991 --> 00:54:53,227
shown around the world.

1427
00:54:54,194 --> 00:54:56,330
People are horrified.

1428
00:55:00,767 --> 00:55:02,469
Arguments ensue.

1429
00:55:02,536 --> 00:55:03,837
What do these pictures really

1430
00:55:03,904 --> 00:55:05,372
mean?

1431
00:55:05,439 --> 00:55:06,974
Do they show the face of the

1432
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:09,076
American war in Iraq, or are

1433
00:55:09,142 --> 00:55:11,612
they pictures of just a few

1434
00:55:12,346 --> 00:55:15,249
demented individuals that are

1435
00:55:16,884 --> 00:55:20,020
not characteristic of the whole?

1436
00:55:22,189 --> 00:55:24,091
What was lost in these endless

1437
00:55:24,157 --> 00:55:26,827
debates is a real analysis of

1438
00:55:29,796 --> 00:55:32,399
what happened at Abu Ghraib.

1439
00:55:32,466 --> 00:55:34,501
As if somehow you could argue

1440
00:55:34,568 --> 00:55:36,403
about it through the pictures,

1441
00:55:36,470 --> 00:55:38,572
the pictures were all you needed

1442
00:55:38,639 --> 00:55:41,241
to see, all you needed to know.

1443
00:55:41,308 --> 00:55:43,844
And the debate stopped there.

1444
00:55:43,911 --> 00:55:45,913
So, it was easy for the

1445
00:55:47,981 --> 00:55:49,683
president simply to say this was

1446
00:55:49,750 --> 00:55:51,518
despicable.

1447
00:55:51,585 --> 00:55:53,220
This makes me sick.

1448
00:55:53,287 --> 00:55:55,355
This is not America.

1449
00:55:55,422 --> 00:55:58,091
To distance himself from it.

1450
00:55:59,860 --> 00:56:01,662
But in the absence of any real

1451
00:56:01,728 --> 00:56:04,731
investigation into Abu Ghraib,

1452
00:56:08,202 --> 00:56:10,337
we have come to believe

1453
00:56:11,538 --> 00:56:13,674
that those photographs

1454
00:56:13,740 --> 00:56:16,076
is what happened there.

1455
00:56:16,143 --> 00:56:18,145
And the true story is a much

1456
00:56:18,212 --> 00:56:21,215
deeper, and a much uglier story.

1457
00:56:22,249 --> 00:56:24,051
It's one of the darkest chapters

1458
00:56:24,117 --> 00:56:25,719
in American history.

1459
00:56:25,786 --> 00:56:28,121
We were operating, in essence,

1460
00:56:28,188 --> 00:56:30,123
a concentration camp in the

1461
00:56:30,190 --> 00:56:32,860
heart of the Sunni triangle.

1462
00:56:37,464 --> 00:56:38,799
It's interesting having made

1463
00:56:38,866 --> 00:56:40,334
this movie, because

1464
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:41,902
I really made a movie

1465
00:56:41,969 --> 00:56:44,304
close to current events.

1466
00:56:45,305 --> 00:56:47,374
McNamara, yes, it had

1467
00:56:47,441 --> 00:56:49,476
application to current events,

1468
00:56:49,543 --> 00:56:51,778
but it at least is framed

1469
00:56:52,546 --> 00:56:55,215
in events of 50-60 years ago.

1470
00:56:56,316 --> 00:56:59,219
This was very, very immediate.

1471
00:56:59,720 --> 00:57:02,055
Many people would love to

1472
00:57:02,556 --> 00:57:04,558
pretend it never happened.

1473
00:57:04,625 --> 00:57:05,959
Maybe myself included, I might

1474
00:57:06,026 --> 00:57:07,394
add.

1475
00:57:07,461 --> 00:57:09,263
But it did.

1476
00:57:09,329 --> 00:57:10,631
>> Let's take a look at some of

1477
00:57:10,697 --> 00:57:12,299
"Standard Operating Procedure,"

1478
00:57:12,366 --> 00:57:14,635
and see what the procedure

1479
00:57:14,701 --> 00:57:17,371
for Errol Morris is in airing

1480
00:57:18,105 --> 00:57:19,740
some of the subject matter

1481
00:57:19,806 --> 00:57:21,275
having to do with Abu Ghraib.

1482
00:57:21,341 --> 00:57:25,546
"Standard Operating Procedure."
I would say over half of my

1483
00:57:25,612 --> 00:57:28,048
cases were solved because the

1484
00:57:28,115 --> 00:57:31,118
criminal did something stupid.

1485
00:57:32,052 --> 00:57:33,320
Taking photographs of these

1486
00:57:33,387 --> 00:57:34,588
things is that one something

1487
00:57:34,655 --> 00:57:36,323
stupid.

1488
00:57:39,326 --> 00:57:40,694
They gave me 12 CDs and said

1489
00:57:40,761 --> 00:57:42,029
there's thousands of pictures

1490
00:57:42,095 --> 00:57:43,564
from Abu Ghraib.

1491
00:57:43,630 --> 00:57:45,265
We want you to find all of them

1492
00:57:45,332 --> 00:57:46,900
that depict possible prisoner

1493
00:57:46,967 --> 00:57:48,569
abuse, or people that were in

1494
00:57:48,635 --> 00:57:50,103
the area at the time the abuse

1495
00:57:50,170 --> 00:57:51,839
was occurring.

1496
00:57:52,406 --> 00:57:53,874
And we need to know exactly when

1497
00:57:53,941 --> 00:57:56,276
the pictures were taken.

1498
00:57:58,212 --> 00:57:59,746
The pictures are worth a

1499
00:57:59,813 --> 00:58:01,081
thousand words, but unless you

1500
00:58:01,148 --> 00:58:02,482
know what date and time they're

1501
00:58:02,549 --> 00:58:04,151
talking, you wouldn't know what

1502
00:58:04,218 --> 00:58:05,485
the story was.

1503
00:58:05,552 --> 00:58:06,854
I starting lining pictures up

1504
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:09,423
based on subject matter.

1505
00:58:09,489 --> 00:58:11,124
I put these on a timeline so the

1506
00:58:11,191 --> 00:58:13,327
jury could see when the incident

1507
00:58:13,393 --> 00:58:15,062
began.

1508
00:58:16,430 --> 00:58:18,098
When did it end?

1509
00:58:19,233 --> 00:58:20,734
How much time lapsed in between

1510
00:58:20,801 --> 00:58:22,703
these photographs?

1511
00:58:24,705 --> 00:58:26,540
How much actual effort did these

1512
00:58:26,607 --> 00:58:27,975
people put into what they were

1513
00:58:28,041 --> 00:58:30,277
doing to the prisoners?

1514
00:58:31,712 --> 00:58:33,113
Who else was there in the room

1515
00:58:33,180 --> 00:58:35,415
at the time it occurred?

1516
00:58:40,621 --> 00:58:41,889
How could all this go on without

1517
00:58:41,955 --> 00:58:43,957
anybody noticing it?

1518
00:58:51,265 --> 00:58:52,833
When you look at this whole case

1519
00:58:52,900 --> 00:58:55,169
as one great big media event,

1520
00:58:55,235 --> 00:58:57,371
you kind of lose focus.

1521
00:58:58,105 --> 00:59:00,073
These pictures actually depict

1522
00:59:00,140 --> 00:59:02,843
several separate incidents of

1523
00:59:02,910 --> 00:59:05,646
possible abuse, or possible

1524
00:59:05,712 --> 00:59:08,715
standard operating procedure.

1525
00:59:09,449 --> 00:59:11,018
All you could do is present what

1526
00:59:11,084 --> 00:59:13,220
you know to be factual.

1527
00:59:13,287 --> 00:59:14,655
You can't bring in emotional

1528
00:59:14,721 --> 00:59:17,224
politics into the court.

1529
00:59:21,361 --> 00:59:23,730
>> Very effective in some other

1530
00:59:23,797 --> 00:59:25,532
techniques there that we can't

1531
00:59:25,599 --> 00:59:27,734
show in the time allowed,

1532
00:59:27,801 --> 00:59:29,603
in projecting, I'll call them

1533
00:59:29,670 --> 00:59:32,005
re-enactments, on doors

1534
00:59:32,472 --> 00:59:34,274
and walls in kind of

1535
00:59:34,575 --> 00:59:36,243
a ghostly manner.

1536
00:59:36,710 --> 00:59:38,111
After all, we're talking about

1537
00:59:38,178 --> 00:59:39,479
some ghostly interrogators

1538
00:59:39,546 --> 00:59:40,614
in that context.

1539
00:59:40,681 --> 00:59:41,782
>> Yeah.

1540
00:59:41,849 --> 00:59:42,983
>> Also, though, probably

1541
00:59:43,050 --> 00:59:44,218
the most sophisticated use

1542
00:59:44,284 --> 00:59:45,385
of graphics.

1543
00:59:45,452 --> 00:59:46,620
Have computers really changed

1544
00:59:46,687 --> 00:59:47,888
significantly the way you make

1545
00:59:47,955 --> 00:59:49,990
films over the years?

1546
00:59:50,057 --> 00:59:51,992
>> Well, certainly digital

1547
00:59:52,059 --> 00:59:55,195
editing and digital photography

1548
00:59:55,596 --> 00:59:58,298
changed how I make movies.

1549
00:59:58,365 --> 01:00:00,367
I used to call myself a

1550
01:00:01,668 --> 01:00:03,670
ten-minute psychiatrist, or the

1551
01:00:03,737 --> 01:00:06,206
11-minute psychiatrist.

1552
01:00:06,673 --> 01:00:08,675
When you work on film,

1553
01:00:09,710 --> 01:00:12,179
whether it's 16mm or 35mm,

1554
01:00:15,649 --> 01:00:18,819
a magazine of film is 11 minutes

1555
01:00:18,886 --> 01:00:20,888
and a couple seconds.

1556
01:00:24,491 --> 01:00:25,692
You have to stop, take the

1557
01:00:25,759 --> 01:00:27,027
magazine off, put another

1558
01:00:27,094 --> 01:00:29,429
magazine on, slate, etc.

1559
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:35,702
Psychiatrist's know when their

1560
01:00:35,769 --> 01:00:37,771
15-minute hour is up.

1561
01:00:38,772 --> 01:00:40,174
I would always know when my

1562
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:42,809
11-minute magazine was up.

1563
01:00:48,048 --> 01:00:50,717
Now, it's different, because all

1564
01:00:50,784 --> 01:00:52,486
of my interviews are shot on

1565
01:00:52,553 --> 01:00:54,888
high-end digital media.

1566
01:00:56,757 --> 01:00:58,158
And I can shoot interviews

1567
01:00:58,225 --> 01:00:59,660
forever.

1568
01:00:59,726 --> 01:01:00,894
Whether this is a good thing

1569
01:01:00,961 --> 01:01:02,596
or a bad thing, I don't know.

1570
01:01:02,663 --> 01:01:04,198
My first digital interview was

1571
01:01:04,264 --> 01:01:05,465
for "Standard Operating

1572
01:01:05,532 --> 01:01:06,700
Procedure," and was done with

1573
01:01:06,767 --> 01:01:08,435
Janis Karpinski.

1574
01:01:10,404 --> 01:01:12,406
We shot over two days,

1575
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:14,975
17 hours over two days,

1576
01:01:15,809 --> 01:01:18,612
which is of course, absurd.

1577
01:01:18,679 --> 01:01:19,813
>> Yes, it is.

1578
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:21,348
It's a very high shooting ratio,

1579
01:01:21,415 --> 01:01:23,083
isn't it?

1580
01:01:23,784 --> 01:01:26,019
I want to end with a commercial.

1581
01:01:26,086 --> 01:01:27,554
>> Sure.

1582
01:01:27,621 --> 01:01:28,722
>> I can't resist being a little

1583
01:01:28,789 --> 01:01:29,723
retro here.

1584
01:01:29,790 --> 01:01:30,924
You did what, 100 commercials

1585
01:01:30,991 --> 01:01:32,826
for Miller beer?

1586
01:01:32,893 --> 01:01:34,695
>> Yes, maybe more.

1587
01:01:35,295 --> 01:01:36,797
>> Did you create the, I'll call

1588
01:01:36,864 --> 01:01:39,266
it the persona for these ads?

1589
01:01:39,333 --> 01:01:40,601
Because they do have, the ones

1590
01:01:40,667 --> 01:01:42,936
I've seen, a common sort of

1591
01:01:43,003 --> 01:01:45,906
center, which is me and my beer,

1592
01:01:47,708 --> 01:01:48,909
and other things I'll

1593
01:01:48,976 --> 01:01:50,777
accommodate if possible,

1594
01:01:50,844 --> 01:01:53,313
but don't expect too much.

1595
01:01:54,581 --> 01:01:55,849
>> This was truly

1596
01:01:55,916 --> 01:01:58,252
a collaborative effort.

1597
01:01:59,353 --> 01:02:01,989
Three creatives at Wieden

1598
01:02:02,055 --> 01:02:04,958
& Kennedy in Portland, Oregon.

1599
01:02:06,326 --> 01:02:07,995
Jeff Kling, Jeff Selis,

1600
01:02:08,061 --> 01:02:09,630
Jeff Williams, I call them

1601
01:02:09,696 --> 01:02:12,366
"The Jeffs," and myself, and

1602
01:02:13,567 --> 01:02:15,636
an editor, a really fabulous

1603
01:02:15,702 --> 01:02:17,571
editor, Angus Wall,

1604
01:02:17,638 --> 01:02:19,806
created the campaign.

1605
01:02:19,873 --> 01:02:21,175
One of the best things I've ever

1606
01:02:21,241 --> 01:02:22,609
done.

1607
01:02:22,676 --> 01:02:24,511
I assume I'm not going to be

1608
01:02:24,578 --> 01:02:25,779
remembered for my movies,

1609
01:02:25,846 --> 01:02:27,014
but I expect to be remembered

1610
01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:28,815
for Miller High Life.

1611
01:02:28,882 --> 01:02:29,816
>> We'll hope that's not

1612
01:02:29,883 --> 01:02:30,817
the case, but these are very

1613
01:02:30,884 --> 01:02:31,919
memorable commercials.

1614
01:02:31,985 --> 01:02:33,654
Here's one.

1615
01:02:37,758 --> 01:02:39,026
>> Hmm, that last egg's

1616
01:02:39,092 --> 01:02:40,894
looking real good.

1617
01:02:41,161 --> 01:02:42,629
You had quite a few though.

1618
01:02:42,696 --> 01:02:44,698
Maybe you shouldn't.

1619
01:02:45,199 --> 01:02:47,334
But, if you make a light choice

1620
01:02:47,401 --> 01:02:49,837
here, maybe you will have room

1621
01:02:49,903 --> 01:02:51,572
for just one more.

1622
01:02:57,778 --> 01:02:58,946
See there?

1623
01:02:59,012 --> 01:03:00,480
When you life the High Life,

1624
01:03:00,547 --> 01:03:02,649
you can live it both ways.

1625
01:03:04,284 --> 01:03:05,652
>> It's got that Errol Morris

1626
01:03:05,719 --> 01:03:07,387
look, even in 30 seconds, or 60,

1627
01:03:07,454 --> 01:03:09,189
you can say that's Errol Morris.

1628
01:03:09,256 --> 01:03:10,691
>> Well, thank you.

1629
01:03:10,757 --> 01:03:12,893
>> It's got the let's say, down

1630
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:14,494
to earth look, if not the

1631
01:03:14,561 --> 01:03:16,730
unwashed look, the everyday

1632
01:03:16,797 --> 01:03:19,466
look, and the little person,

1633
01:03:20,634 --> 01:03:22,002
if you will,

1634
01:03:22,069 --> 01:03:23,370
enjoying his Miller beer.

1635
01:03:23,437 --> 01:03:25,105
>> Yes.

1636
01:03:26,540 --> 01:03:28,041
Commercials are really

1637
01:03:28,108 --> 01:03:29,309
interesting.

1638
01:03:29,376 --> 01:03:31,345
And when they turn out well,

1639
01:03:31,411 --> 01:03:32,746
which is not always the case,

1640
01:03:32,813 --> 01:03:34,581
it's always a great pleasure.

1641
01:03:34,648 --> 01:03:36,984
This campaign, it went on

1642
01:03:37,885 --> 01:03:39,887
for close to a decade.

1643
01:03:40,888 --> 01:03:42,322
And they left us alone and

1644
01:03:42,389 --> 01:03:44,124
allowed us to do a lot of

1645
01:03:44,191 --> 01:03:46,093
really, really good work

1646
01:03:46,159 --> 01:03:47,828
that I'm proud of.

1647
01:03:48,295 --> 01:03:49,596
>> Errol Morris, it's been a

1648
01:03:49,663 --> 01:03:50,697
great pleasure spending the hour

1649
01:03:50,764 --> 01:03:51,665
with you.

1650
01:03:51,732 --> 01:03:52,699
>> Thank you.

1651
01:03:52,766 --> 01:03:53,767
>> There are many more questions

1652
01:03:53,834 --> 01:03:55,035
I have, so the next time you're

1653
01:03:55,102 --> 01:03:56,303
in the neighborhood, I hope I

1654
01:03:56,370 --> 01:03:57,571
get a chance to ask them.

1655
01:03:57,638 --> 01:03:59,306
>> Thank you.

1656
01:03:59,606 --> 01:04:00,874
>> I'm Norman Gilliland, I hope

1657
01:04:00,941 --> 01:04:02,543
you can join me next time around

1658
01:04:02,609 --> 01:04:04,745
for University Place.

1659
01:04:07,347 --> 01:04:08,582
>> University Place

1660
01:04:08,649 --> 01:04:09,616
is made possible in part

1661
01:04:09,683 --> 01:04:10,751
by the Corporation

1662
01:04:10,817 --> 01:04:13,287
for Public Broadcasting.