- How do you politically engage
when you feel more like a prop than a constituent?
Civic engagement isn't as easy as simply asking
the Black community to vote.
For some, it feels like their voices
and concerns only matter when their vote counts.
Policies and issues that are important to us
are often talked about, but rarely addressed.
On this episode of Why Race Matters ,
we'll talk with one young voice
about the work that they're doing
to get the Black community politically engaged.
But first, let's discuss why race matters
when it comes to civic engagement.
[upbeat music]
Civic engagement is recognized as one of the keys
to American democracy.
And voting as one of the primary actions
through which people can become engaged
and let their voices be heard.
The Wisconsin Constitution, adopted in 1848,
prevented Black people from voting, but allowed white men,
regardless of their citizenship status,
and Native American men
who renounced tribal affiliations to vote.
Ezekiel Gillespie, a Black Milwaukee resident
and former slave, fought and won the right to vote in 1866,
establishing the vote for Black men in the state
four years before the 15th amendment.
Even then, state and local officials continued to use
other discriminatory practices, like poll taxes,
literacy tests, and direct intimidation
to silence the Black vote.
A 2017 study found that nearly 17,000 registered voters
in Dane and Milwaukee County were kept from polls
by the state's voter ID law,
a law that disproportionately affected low income
and Black voters.
Voter suppression still remains today.
Despite these setbacks, Black people have historically
created their own pathways to civic engagement,
and particularly when their interests are met.
Grassroots activist and coalition leader
Tatiyana Benson shares her experience
working to promote Black civic engagement in her community.
Thank you for joining us today, Tatiyana.
- Thank you for inviting me.
- So tell us your story, and what has brought you
to the place that you do the work that you do.
- Well, I'm the youngest of 10 children.
- Oh, wow.
- And like, I, my mom has like a really big heart,
so we've always been, like all 10 of us
have always been involved in our community
by like, helping however we can. - Mm-hmm.
- And just tryna like, support people.
I just continue wanting to help people.
Like, you know, if you grow up always with the idea,
like, when you can help, help.
Then like, it's, it like stays with you.
- And so, fast forwarding to today.
Tell us about the work that you do around civic engagement,
still uplifting Black voice, however you want to define it.
- So I'm part of a grassroot organization, Black Umbrella.
And our goal is Black liberation.
And we think that you can get there
through community support, development, and basically
just like, freedom for the people, you know.
And so with that, we do a lot of work
with homeless disparities.
And so we do a lot of work with like feeding people
who sleep outside and tryna provide them with housing.
And then we also plan a lot of marches to bring awareness
to different things that are going on
and like, legislation or just in politics in general.
- So why do you think that work is important
here specifically?
'Cause you were born and raised here and you're still here.
- Yeah.
- So you maybe recognize like, okay, I'm here for a reason.
There's some work that needs to be done.
So just tell us more about that.
- So I think personally for me, I'm still in Madison
because I think that it needs a lot of help.
So I think that if you have the space
and the will to help something, help it.
A lot of times, the Midwest gets a rep
of like, a liberal utopia.
And so I always tell people that Wisconsin
is like cold Mississippi. [Angela laughing]
There's some things that you love about it,
but it has some real, real issues
that need to be like, fixed.
- I think like the South, when you think about the South,
you think about segregation, you think about organizations
like the KKK, you think about like really overt,
in your face, like racism, and here I don't think we get
that sort of recognition where, like you said,
we're seen as, especially like Madison,
we're seen as liberal like, those things don't happen here.
And you're saying like it does, just in a colder temperature.
So I guess what would be the ideal for you as someone
who again, born and raised here, committed to doing work
here to create a state that you want to see,
that you want other people to experience.
Like what would that ideal look like, in a perfect world?
- You know, this is actually a question I'm asked a lot,
and I always feel slightly bad
for my answer. - Uh-oh, okay.
'Cause it's like, not the one that people are looking for.
- Okay.
- Maybe it's 'cause I look at things too deep sometimes
but, you know, I couldn't tell you what that looks like.
I don't know what justice looks like.
I don't know if Black people know
what justice look like in general.
Have we ever really gotten it?
So I couldn't tell you what a just world looks like
or feels like, I just know that this isn't it.
So I can't tell you what a good Wisconsin looks like.
I just know that this, what we have right now,
doesn't feel like it's right.
So it just needs to be better.
- I mean, that's a perfect answer.
Like, I don't see that as being a wrong answer
because you're right.
We may be upholding an ideal that we don't even,
we've never seen modeled. - Yeah.
- So how do you aspire to something that
you don't even know what that looks like.
Right, so, wow.
So Tatiyana, I'm interested in your thoughts around voting,
specifically the messaging that is typically put out there
for Black people to get out and vote.
Those of us who still have that ability to do so,
because that's also kind of couched with the opinion
of some that either their vote doesn't matter
or like, the lack of enthusiasm around voting
because of who the options are.
So what are your thoughts on just that topic in general?
- So when I wasn't able to vote actually,
because I'm only 19. [both laughing]
So when I wasn't able to vote,
I was, I used to preach to people like,
"Vote, you have to vote every election, every time,
"you have to vote because people fought and died for us
- Right. - "to be able to vote,"
like our ancestors didn't take that just for us to not vote.
And then when I was able to vote, I started thinking
about the fact that is hard, like, I get it's my civic duty,
but isn't it a civic duty to like, give me something
to actually vote for? - Mmm.
Because, you know, and then I started thinking
like, our ancestors fought and died
for us to be able to vote, to have the right to vote.
And I actually, I think it's a form of oppression
to tell people that they have to vote
even when there's nobody representing something
that represents them.
I think that the two-party system that has been created
by corporate backing has forced Black people in America
to feel like a last resort is a real option.
And I don't think that a last resort is a real option
because I shouldn't be voting for somebody that has out loud
and open, been like, "Oh, like, no I don't support things,"
that I support to my core.
Like that's, I just don't think that that's fair
to be asked to yeah, to participate in everything
that doesn't actually participate in my life.
Like to ask me and then people will be like,
"Oh, you're voting for a lesser evil,"
like, why do I have to vote for evil at all?
- Why are those the only options?
- Now I would say that it's important for everyone
to vote every election because there's always
multiple things on a ballot.
And so you don't know what you might be missing
just because the main thing on the ballot
isn't something that-- write somebody in, you know.
And don't make it a joke either.
Don't like write in some, a joke,
if you wanna write your mom's name down
'cause you truly think she can rule this country,
run this country better than somebody else,
then like, do that, or if you wanna put down someone
you know who won't get enough votes but you truly believe
that they'd be a better governor for your state,
then that's who you should vote for.
You know, you shouldn't feel forced to give your vote
to somebody who has done nothing to earn it.
- So it's a conversation that's bigger
than just, get out and vote.
I mean, registering is great, practicing that right
is great, but it's beyond that and more
of the representation piece.
And then like, what are the issues?
And if those things aren't there,
then like, you may be encouraging people
to essentially waste something that's been so valuable
and that's been fought for.
- Yeah. - Like for so long.
- And the more that you vote, 'cause it's funny to say,
'cause I'm saying like, you don't have to vote
if it's like, it's not supporting you.
But the more that you vote, the more you'll start
seeing things on the ballots
that support what you're trying to say.
The more you'll start actually seeing things
that represent your voice.
- It tends to just stop with go out and vote.
- Yeah.
- And not with, what are you voting for?
Even understanding the issues. - Yeah.
- That you could be voting for.
So once you are able to vote, like these are the things
that these people stand for and breaking it down
so people understand what they are, et cetera.
'Cause yeah, there have been even things I've seen on ballots
I'm like, "I don't even know what this word means."
- Yeah. [Angela laughs]
- Like, with all the degrees that I have,
I don't know what this is, but these are the choices I gotta,
I feel like I need to check one just because it's there,
but no one's defined this for me.
It's been worded in a way that to me, feels very complicated.
So that can feel like,
off-putting for people and a barrier
to doing exactly what we're encouraging them to do, so.
- I don't know if you ever heard of Afro-pessimism.
- I have, we're talking about that in one of my classes now.
- Yeah, so, I don't believe that Black people can be free
in the society that we live in.
So it's a big thing to question
the entire foundation of our country.
But when you think about it,
our entire foundation of our country was written
and created and built on the back of Black people.
We were never meant to thrive
or succeed in the system that we live in.
It wasn't created to support us either.
So we keep tryna to like, okay, how can we do this?
How can we do that?
But the truth is, is that you can't fix something
that's not broken, you just can't.
- Mm-hmm.
- So no matter how much you change it,
at the end of the day, you will just like that book,
The New Jim Crow , you will always see a new system emerge
that is meant to hold, to oppress people.
Like, it will always show up in a society
that was created to oppress people.
- Right.
- So you have to change it and fix it.
You know, and when you say destroy the system,
people get really scared. [Angela laughing]
- Right.
- I remember I said that, I actually said that
on the news before.
And I got a bunch of like, comments and like,
basically hate comments, I was getting hate mail.
And people are like, "You can't expect people to support you
"by saying stuff like destroy, this is our country,
"you know, like, you should feel love for it."
And I do feel love for this country.
That's why I wanna destroy the evil that lives within it.
And that's what, that's the system we live in.
And that's, and so to tell me that I don't love America
as much as you because I have a problem
with the way that it's shaped
doesn't make sense because I would just leave.
- It's also contradictory, right?
Because America was founded on destruction.
So how are you saying now destroy is a bad thing
when that's how we came to be? - Yeah.
How can you to expect me to feel like I'm loved
in this society, in this country is ridiculous, you know?
To try to fix a system that literally was started
by stealing land and stealing people is a ridiculous idea
to ever think that like, this could be a just system.
- Right. - When it was literally,
like the constitution was written
to make these things okay, but they're not.
So there is no justice in that.
- It makes perfect sense, when you think about
where we are now and how we're like,
in the place historically
where we're like, that's really being challenged
and that's what people are afraid of, to your point, right?
People are afraid of something new,
but we've never reconciled where we came from.
So people are tryna say, "Hey guys, you recognize
"that like, historically this is why we are where we are."
Can we acknowledge that, in the hopes of building something
new and moving forward, but you're absolutely right.
Thank you, like, you just dropped some major knowledge
right now, that was like a class, like seriously,
that was like a graduate level class,
what you just described very like, succinctly,
why we're in the place that we are and why someone
like you gets the pushback that you get.
When you're simply trying to uplift
these very salient points, people understand like one point
in time, we weren't even considered human.
So if we have recently are still, well not even recently,
like we're still fighting for humanity,
hence Black Lives Matter. - Yeah.
- Like that's the same argument
as when we were considered three-fifths of a person.
It's the same thing, just in, written in a different form.
- Yeah.
- So that's why people are doing the things
that you're discussing, like questioning whether or not
I can even vote for something that's for my best interest,
if my humanity is still a question mark in your mind.
If you've never acknowledged me as being equal to you,
then how can I trust you with my vote, right?
- And you also think about how it works.
Like when you wanna add an amendment
to fix something, you like add an amendment
to fix something, but the old rules
are still written in there.
Like, you don't just take them out.
- Right. - You know, so somewhere,
it's still written that Black people
are three-fifths of a person.
- Right. - But then we decided
that they'll be awarded the same laws
as people who are fully human.
Like, we've never unwritten the fact that Black people
were three-fifths of a person.
Like, that's never been unwritten, you can't unwrite it.
- So, given that and given those who will be watching this,
either can relate because they're doing the work too
or have been impacted by some of the systems
and things you all are trying to overturn,
or those who are like, "Wow, this is something
"I'm hearing for the first time.
"Didn't know that there were people like you that felt
"this way or were committed to this work in this way."
What do you want either audience to take away
from this conversation?
- That honestly, if you're doing nothing
or you're not even like, actively trying
to do something, 'cause I'm not saying that
not everybody can do everything. - Right.
- But if you're not actively trying to do your part,
'cause I think everyone can play a role
in fixing, in fixing America, Wisconsin, Madison,
everyone can play a role.
And so I think that the takeaway is just that
like, do something, 'cause if you're not, then you're--
Really, if you're not, you don't care.
And that hurts, to think that people wouldn't care
about other people living happy lives, you know.
- Whew, that is so true.
So it's not a convenience thing.
It's not a, "When it's nice outside, I'll go protest,
"but we're gonna take a break
"during the winter months, you guys."
Like what does it mean to really stay committed to something
for decades if that's what it takes to bring
about that change. - Yeah.
- Yeah, thank you for that, Tatiyana.
Representation is on the rise politically
within the Black community.
In 2020, a record number of Black women ran for Congress.
It's a small step, but an important one.
The more representation we have, the more likely that policies
that positively affect our communities get passed.
There's no doubt that race matters when it comes
to civic engagement, but maybe it's time
to stop lecturing certain communities to vote
and start asking how to earn their vote instead.
To learn more, go to pbswisconsin.org/whyracematters
to find additional links and resources
to help keep you informed.
There, you can also check out the Why Race Matters podcast
as well as additional episodes.
[energetic music]
- Announcer: Funding for Why Race Matters is provided by
CUNA Mutual Group, Park Bank, Alliant Energy,
Madison Museum of Contemporary Art,
Focus Fund for Wisconsin Programming,
and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.