[bright music]
- Announcer: The following program
is a PBS Wisconsin original production.
- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. once said,
"If you want to say that I was a drum major,
"say that I was a drum major for justice.
"Say that I was a drum major for peace.
"I was a drum major for righteousness.
And all of the other shallow things will not matter."
Today, as we celebrate the life and legacy of Dr. King,
we reaffirm that the movement he helped create
continues across the country today.
His words captivated us to listen and motivate us now
to continue the fight for racial equity.
Hi, I'm Angela Fitzgerald.
This is a special presentation of Why Race Matters,
a PBS Wisconsin digital series
elevating issues affecting Black communities.
In the next hour, we'll present two conversations
featured in the newest season of Why Race Matters.
To see additional episodes, you can visit whyracematters.org
or watch on the PBS video app on Roku or other streaming devices.
Our first conversation comes from an episode
centered around critical race theory, or CRT for short.
In it, I speak with Dr. Gloria Ladson-Billings
about exactly what is CRT
and why it's been a topic of conversation
and strong reactions across the state.
After that, I speak with a Milwaukee artist
about how Black art, joy, and trauma
can sometimes coexist and be a revolutionary act.
But first, let's find out why race matters
when it comes to CRT.
Critical race theory, or CRT,
isn't a new framework or way of thinking,
but it has received renewed attention
due to anti-CRT legislation
created across the United States.
So what is CRT, exactly,
and why is it producing such a strong reaction
in some states,
so much that some lawmakers are pushing to ban
teaching it in schools?
Let's find out Why Race Matters
when it comes to history, racism, and education.
[upbeat music]
Critical race theory, or CRT,
can be a controversial buzzword today.
But that wasn't always the case.
In fact, it isn't even a new concept.
CRT dates back to the 1970s and '80s
as a framework for legal analysis
that was created by several legal scholars
to suggest that
"race is a social construct and that racism
"is not merely individual bias or prejudice,
"but something embedded
in systems, policies, and practices."
CRT suggests that because racism is so deeply ingrained
in the fabric of our nation,
even well-intentioned decisions made by individuals
can help to fuel racism.
And for some, therein lies the perceived controversy,
resulting in the creation of anti-CRT legislation.
In Wisconsin,
the Legislature passed a bill in January 2022
that would limit the discussion of racism
in K-12 classrooms, including any teaching that, quote,
"an individual, by virtue of that individual's race or sex,
"is inherently racist, sexist, or oppressive,
whether consciously or unconsciously."
The bill was vetoed by Governor Tony Evers.
Critics of anti-CRT legislation say
that if America desires a more equitable future,
then we must be willing to acknowledge
the atrocities of the past
and their influence on the present.
National Academy of Education President
and Professor Emerita at the University of Wisconsin-Madison,
Dr. Gloria Ladson-Billings, joins us
to share more about the importance of CRT
and its application in and outside of the classroom.
So, Dr. Gloria Ladson-Billings,
thank you so much for joining us today.
- My pleasure.
- So, can you start off by telling us
a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?
- Well, I am Professor Emerita
of the University of Wisconsin-Madison.
That's just a fancy way of saying I'm retired.
But I will confess, I am failing at it.
[Angela laughs] I am the world's worst retiree.
I've been fascinated by the education of Black people
in this country
because it's such an incredible story.
And so, where I see inequities in that education,
I always want to kind of probe it and explore it
and try to make sense of it.
- I appreciate you coming in to talk with us
about a very important topic.
For some, it's the topic when it comes to race right now.
CRT.
- Well, and I want to be clear
that the context that we are in right now,
on the heels of some horrific massacres of people,
mostly people of color,
and clearly the one in Buffalo being driven by racial hatred,
it's very timely to talk about this particular topic.
But rather, just saying to someone,
"Oh, I study critical race theory,"
or "What do you know about critical race theory?"
I often start with the question,
"Tell me how you explain racial inequality?"
- Mmm.
- Because I think the explanation that one has
really kind of makes them, you know, puts them in a context
for understanding the world.
So, if your explanation is,
"Well, people just need to work harder."
Millions of people need to work harder?
I mean, think about it.
If you start off by saying,
"Well, there isn't any racial inequality,"
then I don't actually think I can have a debate with you
because we don't see the world the same way.
On almost every social benefit,
whether it is health, wealth, education, employment,
we can see racialized disparity.
So, how do we explain it?
In a classroom with students,
typically graduate students, I want to be clear.
I would probably say something like,
"Well, it's not as if we haven't had explanations."
We have.
From the time Black people arrived on these shores
to about the mid 20th century, 1950s,
our explanation was pretty much biogenetic.
So ingrained in our thinking that many universities,
many colleges, had departments and programs in eugenics.
We said that was a science,
that this group of people is biogenetically inferior.
Now, I would imagine that a lot of thinking people
did not buy into that well before the 1950s.
- Hopefully.
- But I use the mid 1950s as a marker
because it's at this point that we have the Brown decision.
And Brown is a landmark decision.
Everybody knows Brown v. the Board of Education.
However, from a critical race theory perspective,
we don't see it merely as an education decision.
We see it as a foreign policy decision.
Because you have to put the legal cases,
the Supreme Court cases, in a broader context.
1954 is the heart of the Cold War.
And part of the propaganda that the then-Soviet Union
is using is to say to non-aligned nations
like Angola or India,
"You don't want to be associated with the United States.
Look what they do to people who look like you."
So that there's all these examples of lynching
and dogs being sicced on people, failure to allow people to vote.
So there is great pressure on the nation.
- Right, we looked bad. - To look better, right?
Because the Soviets are exploiting this.
I mean, you can find editorial cartoons,
you can find op-eds all about "Look how the United States
treats Black people."
So, it's not,
it's why not only did the decision have to come out
in favor of Linda Brown and the plaintiffs,
it needed to be unanimous.
It needed to make a statement.
So at that point, we're saying
the problem is not biogenetic.
The problem is lack of opportunity.
That's a pretty good explanation.
- It is.
- Unfortunately, not long after that,
Richard Nixon's administration, and, in fact,
I wrote a paper about the Brown decision
in which I was able to find a statement
from one of Nixon's, part of his administration,
H.R. Haldeman, who was also disgraced
in the Watergate scandal.
But he tells, you have Haldeman's diary
in which he says
Nixon has told Mitchell, that's the Attorney General,
to start filing cases to roll back Brown.
And keep filing it, filing them
until it's totally rolled back.
And so, we have all these cases that come back.
We have Milliken, we have Dow,
we have San Antonio v. Rodriguez.
So the "opportunity" explanation's
seemingly not holding up.
Another example is voting rights.
1960s, right?
So, that's an opportunity.
What is happening now?
Affirmative Action.
It's a Lyndon Johnson initiative.
And it has been fought over and over.
The Fisher case,
the Gratz and Grutter cases out of Michigan.
So critical race theory comes along,
and it comes along in the late 1970s.
- And that's part of the frustration for some
is that this isn't a new argument.
This has been around for decades.
- No.
And so when people say,
"They're trying to foment a revolution," I always say,
"This is the slowest revolution I have been a part of."
I will be dead before we have any movement.
[Angela laughs]
But critical race theory comes about in law schools.
At the University of Wisconsin-Madison,
where they held these critical legal studies conferences,
those were folks who said, you know,
the way that law is taught and the way that we understand it
doesn't take into consideration
the situation and the condition of other people,
other than people who were already well established.
And so, it was mostly around people who were poor, women.
And it was a group of Black legal scholars,
as well as other scholars of color, who said,
"You guys have forgotten about race."
So, the critical race theorists emerge
in these Wisconsin workshops.
And what I find really interesting
is people always want to make it a sort of
Black-white issue, but I show people that
among the major proponents are people like Richard Delgado,
Mari Matsuda, Sumi Cho,
Tomas Rivera.
I mean, these are all folks who have done work in this area.
They're not Black.
They're trying to figure out
how do we explain persistent generational racial inequality?
- So, in short, for someone who's never heard of CRT
or maybe has heard of it,
but doesn't really know what it means,
what's the simple definition that you use
to help people understand?
- Well, you know, I try to tell people
it is a legal look at racial inequality.
Its whole point is to try to explain the inequality,
try to make sense of it.
Because it really, you know, after all of these years
of having been in this nation, you know,
some of the longest-standing people in the nation are Black.
You know, in some ways,
I often say, "Who's more American than a Black person?"
Because we have deep and long roots here.
So, I think that the whole point of critical race theory
is to try to make sense of why the inequality persists.
- So, would you say that that is the current
sort of reasoning that exists?
Like, we've graduated from all of these other points in time
we had other ways of thinking about inequality,
to now it's systemic.
There's an issue with the system.
- And we're saying it out loud.
I don't know if you remember, but not too long ago,
one of the major advertisers, I can't even,
I won't say it 'cause I'll get it wrong,
but some, one of the major advertisers did an entire series
called "The Talk." - Mmm.
- Where Black parents,
you'd see these little snippets where Black people
would tell their children,
"If you get stopped by the police, be polite.
Don't let anybody call you such and such word."
I mean, okay, when did we all get together
and have this conversation? [Angela laughs]
It turns out that that's part of our systemic understanding
of this is the way it works.
That yeah, you do expect to have someone follow you around.
Now, I remember teaching a class where students,
you know, and my work is not to make students
think like I think.
My work is to make sure they think.
So I'm happy to hear a well- reasoned, well-thought-out,
well-substantiated conservative argument about something.
More so than a knee-jerk liberal one.
I want you to be thinking.
So we had a discussion once where a young lady talked about
she was in a store, a local store, purchasing groceries,
and she'd left her checkbook.
And the manager or the cashier, I'm not sure who,
told her, "Oh, not a problem.
"Take your groceries and when you come back by,
you can pay."
Well, a Black student in this class said,
"Well, that wouldn't happen to me."
[Angela laughs]
And she said, "No, it would, it would," you know,
"They're really nice there."
And he says, "I'm telling you it would not happen."
So they went back and forth and so he said,
"Let's do this.
"Because I do live in your neighborhood, you know,
"that's, we know each other.
"The next time I need to go to the store,
"I'm gonna call you and I'm gonna have you go with me
"and I'm gonna purchase what I need to purchase,
"go through the cashier's line,
but I'm going to say that I don't have my wallet."
They did it.
And as soon as he said he didn't have his wallet,
he was told, "Okay, well, put the groceries
"over there on the side and then when you,
you go home and get your wallet and then come back."
So she was mortified.
Because it was this local family,
it wasn't a chain, right?
And it was like,
"Why would they let me just, you know..."
So, it's those kinds of "aha" moments.
Often, some colleagues and I say,
you know, we'll call each other about something
and someone will say, "I had a CRT moment."
[both laugh]
In other words, it's just one of those things
that's happened again.
- I so appreciate that example.
Not only because it's relatable,
but because it does help to kind of
simplify the conversation.
Although I can see some people taking that,
especially the grocery store example and saying,
"Well, oh, that particular person that was working
is racist," versus calling attention to the system.
- Mm-hmm. - So how would you help someone
kind of delineate between like, there's individual racism,
yes, we don't want to ignore that,
but systemic racism is way more insidious in some ways
because it can fall under the radar in ways
we don't always recognize.
- Well, I don't deny individual racism,
but racists grow up in a context.
So let's go back to the Buffalo massacre and that,
that individual, yes, I'm gonna buy that he's mentally ill.
Anybody who would shoot up people like that
is mentally ill.
But what's the context
that was feeding his mental illness?
Well, when we check his computer,
he's in all kinds of hate groups.
When we see the manifestos, what his whole point was.
So, it's a both/and situation.
There are individual people who are racist,
but there's a context that feeds into that racism
that happens systematically.
- And so I brought up the individual racism part
because I feel like that's somehow tied to the opposition,
like the current opposition.
Because like you mentioned, CRT is not new.
It's been around for decades.
It's provided a legit explanation behind
why there are disparities still because some people
like to believe that that was so long ago.
Why are we not X, Y, Z?
Well, the system didn't change this whole time,
so why would things generally improve for a group of people
the system was never designed to benefit?
But I guess I'm curious,
from your vantage point, why now?
- So, let's be clear.
Much of what people are, quote, "against"
is not critical race theory.
When you say, "Oh, I'm against anything that's,
you know, that's anti-racism."
Well, that's really not critical race theory.
We've been doing anti-racist workshops for a very long time.
When you say you don't want to have any discussion on race,
when you say we don't want white children to feel bad,
you know, when I first heard that, I thought,
"Well, my God, where were you in the 1950s and '60s
when I was in school?" [Angela laughs]
Because I had to sit through Honors English classes
reading Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn
with the liberal use of the N-word
and all of my white classmates sniggling and giggling.
Right?
I had to sit through Margaret Mitchell's
Gone with the Wind.
Nothing about education is about
just making you feel comfortable.
Sometimes we learn the most in the midst of discomfort.
So I think what's happened is this broad net has been cast,
and if you go back and look at some of the architects
of the anti-CRT work, you see the strategy was brilliant.
So you have someone like Christopher Rufo,
who is at the Manhattan Institute, who says,
and I want to make sure I say this pretty carefully,
but he says,
"We're going to take all of the cultural insanities
that Americans dislike."
Now, think about that.
What's a cultural insanity and who are the Americans?
- Right. - We're gonna take
all the cultural insanities that Americans dislike
and lump them into the category of critical race theory.
We're going to turn the brand toxic.
- Mmm.
- So now anything that deals with race, inequality,
diversity, equity, inclusion,
now all critical race theory.
So, when we can't talk about all of history,
as James Baldwin says.
He says, "If you feel compelled to lie
"about any part of the history,
you're likely to lie about it all."
- And that's the danger, kind of,
when you mentioned the danger of kind of compromising
how we approach education
and not only demonizing history,
but also demonizing the explanations
that are made available as to why,
why things are the way they are.
So then you have students coming into classrooms
and teachers not being equipped to even discuss
what's happening right now.
So like, what can we offer if we can't talk about
the reasons why these very impactful, triggering,
traumatizing things are happening
without those tools that we're saying, no, it's illegal.
- You know, and our founders, you know,
these are really smart guys.
These are smart men.
Thomas Jefferson's someone I just find fascinating.
I've got good things to tell you about Thomas Jefferson.
But there's contradictions.
Because at the same moment he is writing
these magnificent words,
"We hold these truths to be self-evident,"
he's got a woman,
an enslaved woman, with whom he is procreating.
I don't know what the nature of their relationship is,
but I know that in his notes from Virginia,
he talks about Black people not being anywhere equal
to white people and that the best thing we can do
is just get rid of 'em.
Whoa, whoa, you're making more of 'em!
You know?
So there is this incredible contradiction.
Should I not say that George Washington was number one,
more interested in farming than governing
and that's pretty well-documented.
He rode back and forth to his farm every day
that he was in the White House.
Mount Vernon was his passion.
Should I not say that when he was president,
and remember the capital was in Philadelphia at this time,
it's not in Washington, D.C.
Pennsylvania had an ordinance that said you could not,
if you were enslaved and you came to Pennsylvania,
at the end of 60 days, you had to be manumitted.
You had to be set free.
Washington brought his slaves with him to Philadelphia
and on day 59-- - Angela: Didn't stay 60 days.
- They went back to Maryland
and then they came back on day 61
and started the clock all over again.
- Wow.
- Now, you've got to be thinking about this.
You can't just be thinking, "Oh, well, you know,
okay, so y'all are not, you know, slaves anymore."
These contradictions, these human flaws
are part of making these people real to our students
and not turning them into idols.
- 'Cause I think the extremes can happen on either end.
- Mm-hmm. - Because we're all flawed,
whichever end of the spectrum we may land on.
- Dr. Ladson-Billings: Mm-hmm.
- So I love that you highlight, like,
okay, there may be some good here or something here
that is worth discussing,
but let's not ignore like you're saying--
- Dr. Ladson-Billings: Correct.
- The flaws or the contradictions.
- I think it's important for us to understand
that if we don't get to a place
where we can actually hear one another,
where we can actually express our deepest fears and concerns,
we tear at the fabric of the nation.
And CRT was never designed to do that.
- And for a special group who might just feel tired...
Like you said, this isn't anything new.
This has been going on for so long.
What would you say to that audience?
- The historian in me always takes the long view.
I am from a family in which my great-grandparents
were chattel slavery slaves.
And I'm inspired by
sort of the father of CRT, Derrick Bell,
who says just because something is impossible
doesn't mean it's not worth doing.
So, my great-grandparents were in an impossible situation.
They were in bondage.
But I bet every day they thought about
"How can we get out of this?"
And so, then my grandparents, on both sides,
mother's side and father's side, were sharecroppers.
An impossible situation.
You could never get out of sharecropping.
You could never get ahead.
You could never own property.
It was impossible.
But they still fought against it.
Then my own parents
grew up in state-sponsored segregation, legal apartheid.
My mother could not try on a hat in a downtown department store.
An impossible situation.
Where you have to sit in the back of a bus,
and you have to knowingly go to a substandard school
if you got to go to school.
Impossible.
But they fought against it.
So then here I am,
an endowed professor with 10 honorary degrees.
Go back to my great-grandparents, right?
So, people who are willing to fight against the impossibility,
who understand that just because it's impossible,
doesn't mean it's not worth doing,
is what encourages and emboldens me.
My expectations for the next generation
and the generation beyond that are quite high
because I know we have this capacity.
In fact, our youth don't even think about race
the same way we do.
And so, that's encouraging.
- Wow.
You're making me tear up a little bit with your,
your breakdown, but that is so true.
Thank you for that.
- You're welcome.
- And with that, thank you so much for joining me today.
I've so enjoyed our conversation.
Feel like I could talk with you all night.
- Well, thank you for having me.
- Thank you so much. - Appreciate it.
Thank you.
- Critical race theory is one framework
to acknowledge the foundations of racism
in the United States and its impact today.
Regardless of any discussion around education policy,
there's a painful yet very real history
that exists for Black Americans,
as well as other historically marginalized communities.
This series is called Why Race Matters because
we acknowledge that,
while highlighting those in our state working
to hold systems, structures, and ourselves accountable
to create a more equitable Wisconsin.
Our next episode of Why Race Matters
centers around art and Black joy.
I sit down with Milwaukee artist Anwar Floyd-Pruitt
as we discuss how he incorporates identity
into his work, and why finding Black joy
can be a revolutionary act.
- When you think of Black art, what comes to mind?
From paintings, to sculpture, to film,
it provides a medium for conversation and reflection.
It can bring attention to serious issues
and create momentum for social change.
But it's also a place to celebrate culture and community.
Today, we'll talk to an artist
who explores identity in their work.
Let's find out Why Race Matters
when it comes to art and Black joy.
Black visual art has a rich history in the United States.
When Black people were forced to come to this country,
many could only make utilitarian art.
As time progressed and Black people fought for their rights,
they became painters, sculptors,
and embraced other artistic mediums.
For some Black artists,
joy is fundamental for their art-making process
and for the reception of their work.
In this episode of Why Race Matters,
we'll talk to Anwar Floyd-Pruitt,
a Milwaukee-based artist.
We'll discuss his practice, the importance of community,
and the intersection of Black art and joy.
How are you doing today, Anwar?
- I'm well, thank you. - Good, good!
And thank you so much for joining us
for our conversation today.
- My pleasure, and thanks for having me.
- So, to get us started,
I feel like you're a multi-hyphenate
who does things in a lot of different arenas.
So, what might be the simplest way for us
to introduce you to our audience?
Like, how would you like to be described?
- I have to write bios all the time
and they're constantly shifting. - Angela: Okay.
- I would say that I usually say that
I am an interdisciplinary artist from Milwaukee, Wisconsin...
- Mm. - ...working in community arts,
performance, and self-portraiture.
- Hmm, okay, I love that!
So, can you break that down?
Like, what is interdisciplinary art?
- [exhales] Well, you know, many, a lot, you know,
I've been in art school or was in art school
for 7 of the last 10 years.
And so, a lot of my classmates and professors
were very specifically focused in terms of their medium.
People working in metals, people working in ceramics,
people working in printmaking or painting,
and I've tried them all.
And at this point, I haven't landed on a single medium
that feels most like home. - Angela: Mm-hmm.
- And so I continue to, you know, just work across medium.
And I found that I was sitting in my studio one day
and I wanted to build
a people-powered kinetic sculpture.
And I spent some time.
I was twiddling my thumbs and kind of going through my brain
and I thought, "Huh, it sounds like a puppet."
[Angela laughs]
And so, that's how I got started in puppetry.
- Angela: Got it; oh, wow.
So, you literally have, it sounds like skill sets
that are broader than just one specific area.
So, kind of spreading yourself out
gives you the creative freedom to explore
those different areas, puppetry being one of them,
it sounds like.
- It's not really about like the fear of being pigeonholed
as much as I haven't landed on, like,
a singular definition myself.
And so, I, you know, I'll embrace them all,
particularly when there's an opportunity
to sort of share that knowledge or creative spirit
because every time I teach something,
I also learn something,
particularly when working with young people.
I had done some work with incarcerated youth,
both here in Madison, as well as in Milwaukee.
And I just knew, I learned that, you know,
that there are some kids there who are sort of like
chronically incarcerated and it is, you know,
it's a system that we live in as well as sort of
maybe lack of support when they get out,
you know, that leads to that revolving door.
And then, I also-- but I met some kids who were
like really, really engaged in the arts.
And I could see that when I would bring
art experience to them, particularly,
this puppetry experience over the last couple years,
their eyes would brighten up because it's fun.
For one, it allows them to be the visual artist.
And then there's a--
I designed these puppets to be easily...
easily designed, fabricated.
So anyone with $5 at the dollar store
can make, I think, their own puppet show and--
- Angela: Really?
- Yes, and go perform for children's events.
And so, that really excites me to offer something to someone
that they can take and make their own,
and puppetry is that.
- I feel like you touched on so much in terms of like
first expanding, I think, the mediums that are included
when we traditionally think about art.
Like, I would not have thought about puppetry,
which I'm thinking like Sesame Street
and like those sorts of like, you know, Jim Henson.
Like, that's my point of reference for puppetry.
I would not have thought about that as an art form,
but the way that you frame it, it very much is.
But I also appreciate how when you describe
your community and performing arts work,
it's also broadening like, what that means
and taking us in the direction of talking about access
because these incarcerated youth might not be
the same people you see in an art museum
where your medium is available.
Like, you're taking it to them and in doing that,
they're being exposed to, like, a form of art
that they might naturally connect with
and who knows where that could take them.
- Yes, and it's one of the things
I love about working with, you know, young people
or just working with, you know,
other artists or creative minds in general,
is that epiphany.
We were kind of talking about that.
And I can see a young person engaging with, like,
the puppetry perhaps, or, you know, the writing of,
you know, family-friendly rhymes as something
that really says, they think,
"Wow, there's an opportunity in this.
"I can see this as, you know, as marketable, as a way forward,
as a way to, you know, express myself."
- So, I wanna shift gears for a bit and kind of talk about
the art world in general and the significance of art,
especially Black art, and within this particular
period of time that we're in now with just so much happening.
The pandemic, so we're navigating our way through that
still being a thing, even though, thankfully, you know,
safety restrictions have lifted a bit as of this point.
We'll see if that remains.
But also, just all the racial unrest
and things that have been happening nationally,
as well as within our state.
What do you see is a significance of Black artists
as it relates to telling the story
and conveying, in some ways, the struggles while also
highlighting the celebrations that take place
within our culture and racial group?
- Absolutely, absolutely.
That, you know, that question makes me think a lot
about my educational experience over the past few years.
And, you know, when I did my BFA at UW-Milwaukee,
entered as a 36-year-old freshman.
- Angela: Love it. [laughs]
- And, you know, but I'm from Milwaukee.
And a lot of my work in that sculpture department
was about race, was about some of the struggles
that I saw in the Black community in Milwaukee
after moving back to Milwaukee from New York City.
And one of the things that was great about it
is that I felt like I could make work
about the Black community,
but then also for the Black community,
because I was, you know, certainly like I was
deeply ingrained in the Black community in Milwaukee,
through youth work, as well as just my whole family.
You know, my whole family is there.
And that made it easier for me to make heavy work
'cause I had a support system, you know.
When I moved to Madison for grad school,
there were fewer-- I wasn't connected
to the Black community in Madison as much.
My family wasn't here.
There weren't many Black students or faculty.
And so, I really had to make this decision about
if I wanna make work about this sort of
these heavy topics and do this heavy lifting.
Do I have the support, you know, when I leave the studio,
when I go home, when it's time to start, like,
writing the artist statements, dissecting it,
sharing it with my class in critique?
And am I willing--
Am I prepared to have someone critiquing the work
who's from... - Deeply personal.
- ...which is deeply personal,
but that's what grad school is all about.
It's about that critique.
And it wasn't necessarily that I was going to shy away
from that critique completely,
but I just knew that I was, like, in this
for the long haul and that I didn't want to
leave graduate school exhausted and in a terrible mood.
[chuckles]
- Angela: Mental health matters.
- Anwar: And so, and mental health matters incredibly.
And so, what I decided to do
was make it a little more personal.
So it's still my work, a little more personal.
So it's still about Blackness
because I was working in self-portraiture.
So as much as it, for me, it was about family, you know,
history, family history.
And so, there's that family component that locks it in
as something personal,
but then there's that history component
that we all share, you know?
So, it's an interesting way to sort of talk about
some racial issues without the...
without the main focus of it being racial issues,
but more being my family's personal story,
which is certainly sprinkled with, you know,
experiences related to race and racism,
but also sprinkled with experiences due to, like,
geographic location, you know?
My mom's from West Virginia. - Angela: Oh, wow.
- So then there's like, you know,
some West Virginia pulled into the work
that isn't specifically racial,
but the way I sort of approach that is
these are all these different versions of myself.
These are all the different people
who I have the potential to be or could be.
This is the sweet son, Anwar.
This is like the Anwar who's upset that the Bucks lost.
You know, these are, this is the uncle.
This is the, you know, the student.
And just really broaden the definition,
I think, for myself of who I am in this world,
who I will be, and let other people know
that they also have those options.
- That is so beautiful.
And I love how you kind of combine this idea of like,
there is depth within what you are sharing.
There's a lot that is packaged when you have so much,
like, history and culture embedded within your work,
but there is lightness as well.
There can be joy as well.
There's a celebration.
So it's not an either/or.
It can be both.
It kind of depends on the interpretation of the viewer,
but for you, as the creator,
that's what you're essentially embedding
with what you're creating.
And what you take from it, you know, you can't control that,
but at least this is what is-- what I've put into my work.
- Absolutely.
You know, it's a celebration of self,
a celebration of family,
a celebration of overcoming struggles.
And, you know, some people would say that
just being Black and alive in America is a revolutionary act.
You know?
That to be Black and alive, and full of joy
is a revolutionary act.
And I don't consider myself a revolutionary all the time.
It's not like a badge that I wear,
but if I can contribute to...
If I can contribute to sort of
to positive feelings, as well as,
you know, the deep conversations that are complicated and...
And, you know, that hurt sometimes.
But I also want to see our people smile.
I wanna see people smile at us.
- That's super powerful.
And I love how you are taking upon yourself
that responsibility of putting your work out there,
even at the risk of it maybe not being understood
or received in the way quite that you had envisioned
that it would be.
It kind of goes back to your school experiences
of like, the critique,
how you're putting things out there in grad school,
because they're potentially subject to critique
and that helps you.
I think the goal is to help you improve as an artist,
but that can be hard to take.
So, multiply that times a thousand, million, trillion
on social media, where it's definitely open to critique.
What did Erykah Badu say?
"I'm an artist and I'm sensitive about my stuff."
- Yeah, absolutely.
- So, it's that thing of you pushing past
what could be those negative aspects
of social media engagement because of responsibility
and the impact, the positives there,
the potential positives there are so much greater
than whatever those bots or those trolls might have to say.
- And I think, you know,
it sort of brings me to another show
called Collateral Damage and it's a show about mental health.
And I have three self-portraits in that show.
And I would say that that is
some of the most challenging work for me
right now to have up
because it does bring up these conversations
that are quite uncomfortable
revolving around, one: mental health and mental illness.
But then also 'cause my work in that is specifically about
PTSD and an experience I had on State Street
while painting a Black Lives Matter mural.
So, yeah, so it's, you know, it's complicated,
but it's important because, you know,
well, one: men and mental health.
You'll find fewer men seeking help for mental health concerns.
And so, I think in that sense,
it's important for me to be in this show.
- Absolutely.
- To show that men also deal with mental health concerns,
which actually puts my experience on State Street
at this strange intersection that has been
something I've needed to think about a bit recently
after giving an interview
about the Collateral Damage show
is that I was painting a Black Lives Matter mural,
someone who is self-identified as a vet,
but I can only identify them as a drunk, white man,
older than me, in the middle of the day,
came up to me and said,
"Well, you know, why doesn't my life matter?"
I was holding a large stencil
that said "Black Lives Matter" many times.
He came up and he attacked me.
And in the end, he damaged the stencil.
But it was the middle of the day
right there outside of the-- I guess, the Warby Parker
at State and Gorham and...
you know, he kind of rushed into the bus stop, attacked me.
I punched him once in sort of self-defense.
And, mind you, I am 44 years old.
I was 43 at the time.
Maybe I was 42.
I'd never punched a person in my entire life
because I am still a man of peace
and I've lived this peaceful life.
And I guess that also speaks to a certain amount
of privilege to not have been attacked.
- Angela: Not have to fight.
- Anwar: But is that really privilege?
- Angela: I guess it depends on who you ask.
- Anwar: It depends on who you ask, right?
- But I think to some extent, yeah,
because if you're in an environment that's not,
where you aren't consistently having
to engage with violence, then absolutely.
- Anwar: Sure, sure, yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's what I would wish for everyone.
To not have to constantly engage with violence.
And so, you know, I punched this man.
There were three young Black men on the bus stop
who saw that go down and they were, you know,
were willing to jump in and help me.
And I was like-- I stopped them from jumping in, you know?
And then the guy yells, "Well, I'm a veteran!
Why doesn't my life matter?"
And... [exhales]
- Angela: So that's what provoked the attack
was his perception that your sign signaled to him
that his life didn't matter? - Anwar: Right, right.
And what a failing.
What a failing on the part of our community,
on the part of culture, right?
What a failing on the part of whoever are supposed to be
his resourcesso that he thinks that his life does matter.
Believes that. - Right.
- And you know, it left me, and again, you know,
42 years old, never really been in a fight like that.
- Mm-hmm.
- And it left me not wanting to go to State Street.
- Right, because you didn't feel safe.
- Anwar: It contributed to me leaving Madison.
- Wow.
And you know, what's funny about that in a,
not literal "ha-ha" funny, but ironic funny,
is you mentioned you're from Milwaukee.
I think the perception could be that like,
that's the scary city by comparison to Madison.
- Sure.
- And you're like, "No, this made me feel unsafe.
"Henceforth, Madison as a city - Right.
Feels unsafe to me."
- Right, right.
The pieces in Collateral Damage,
one of them is called "State Street State of Mind."
And it's a self-portrait, and I'm kind of turned to the side.
My head is down, and it's like how I was navigating
Madison and State Street after that incident.
Very suspicious.
I haven't spent much of my time being extremely suspicious,
you know, looking out for that person lurking,
that danger, you know, right there.
And that was my experience after that incident,
on top of living by, near the police station.
So, my neighborhood, you know,
being sort of ground zero for a lot of noise,
a lot of police, a lot of activity,
a lot of fights.
And then, we went into that first COVID winter
and that was, you know, and it was very lonely.
So, then one of the pieces in that show was called
"Mired-Winter Wallow," where it was, you know,
the first winter after this incident.
My hand was broken because I don't punch people.
So, I didn't use a very good technique.
[chuckles]
And, you know, and I look at that piece
and I think about, mmm... not to--
I think about my responsibility for my own health.
You know, I spent a lot of that winter alone,
which was actually kind of had to be the case.
We were isolated, you know, due to the pandemic.
I was just living with my cat,
but probably didn't have to drink as much as I did,
you know, as, like, sort of this like coping mechanism.
- Angela: Right, from that feeling of isolation,
as well as the trauma you had experienced
prior to that point, it sounds like.
- Yeah.
And, you know, 'cause the neighborhood was always loud
and I had some like, rowdy neighbors who also were,
sort of, some suffering from, like, mental health concerns.
So, one of the paintings is like, my face
sort of slightly obscured by these white lines
that look like Venetian blinds, you know?
- Angela: Like peering out into the world?
- Yeah, and like, what's going on outside of my window?
So, you know, as much as this show is not about race,
these specific three pieces are 100% generated
by my experience of racism on State Street.
And the work doesn't necessarily push into this so far,
but not just that singular incident,
but a series of incidents that led up to that
from, you know, and it's what I think is like
sort of complicated for white Madisonians perhaps--
I don't know 'cause I'm not one-- is like,
yes, this guy who assaulted me was drunk
in the middle of the day.
I don't know if we've all seen him,
but that's like a certain portion of the population
who we're expecting the poor behavior from, perhaps.
Whereas, I'd also been, you know,
verbally assaulted or threatened by, you know,
white Madisonians on, you know, expensive bikes
in their Greg LeMond Tour de France outfits, right?
So, I wish it was just localized.
I wish I could point to a person
suffering from mental health concerns,
a person who is dealing with some sort of,
you know, housing insecurity and say,
"Well, that's where the problem lies."
And I think that's what makes some of this work
complicated for me is that the problem is bigger than that.
- Absolutely.
- It's just a pretty easy scapegoat to point to.
- Mmm... you've said... - And that's where I get,
like, that's where I'm kind of
getting fired up about this work in particular.
And have like largely chosen not to, you know,
not to talk about it too much.
- Angela: Because there's so much, like,
I didn't expect you describing your artwork
to lend to this whole backstory
and this whole set of experiences that like,
I wanna give you a hug, [Anwar laughs]
like, are pretty traumatizing.
I'm like, I'm sorry that you experienced that
and you were not doing anything that I guess
is explicitly harmful to anyone,
but yet it elicited that particular response
and how even you mentioned that the series itself
isn't about race, but as a Black artist,
you can't extract your lived experiences from the work
that you produce. - Right.
So, it's all gonna go together.
- Yeah, it's all woven in there. - Angela: Right, it all goes.
- It's woven in there.
- As well as like our bigger need to talk about,
like, mental health and what are the nuanced ways
that we can talk about it that don't minimize
personal responsibility.
'Cause I think that's where it gets tricky.
'Cause we could say like, "Oh, racism is a mental illness,"
but then we're all mentally ill from that standpoint.
- Sure. [laughs]
- Angela: And then, where does responsibility
fit into the equation?
So, I think that does generate a good entry point
to talk about like, what is actually going on
if I'm getting these same or similar sets of responses
from these different vastly groups of people?
Like, what's the commonality here
that we can kind of address
and where does mental health fit into the conversation?
- Anwar: Sure, sure.
I mean, and I think in this debate right now
about critical race theory in Wisconsin
and it sounds like some people are worried
that teaching critical race theory
will put their white children into a place of mental duress.
It might negatively impact their mental health.
- Angela: Right, so we can't remove mental health
from the larger topic of, like,
we need to address these are systemic, historic issues
that are still pervasive and we're not really doing
a good job of dealing with,
so how do we do that in a way that doesn't ruffle feathers,
but I guess it's okay to ruffle.
But how do we move things forward?
- Right, right, right. [Angela laughs]
We can't even have the conversation
because someone's feelings are gonna get hurt.
Yet, my lived experience...
- Right, like, your physical safety is...
- Anwar: It's okay for me to constantly,
you know, to deal with those situations about racism.
So, it's, you know, it's going to take,
I'm not gonna say an artist, but it's going to take
an artistic approach to communication
to get people... on board,
to get people to perhaps find the common ground,
to get people to find a way forward that,
well, unfortunately, there's no way forward
without people getting out of their comfort zone.
- Right.
- And so, if we're gonna even try to create a way forward
where people don't have to leave their comfort zone,
then we're actually not.
We're actually not trying,
or we're not putting our efforts,
our eggs in the right basket.
- Angela: Absolutely.
It's "Whose discomfort are we prioritizing?
- Anwar: Sure.
- Anwar, thank you so much.
I was gonna ask you if there's any, like,
closing thing you wanted to share.
I feel like you kind of gave us a mic drop moment already,
but if there's anything that you would like to say
to those who are watching.
- I... Wow. [laughs]
- If you had nothing else, it's fine, too.
- Yeah, I guess I don't.
You know, it all usually comes out sort of fluidly.
And maybe I'll prepare a pithy closing statement
moving forward. [laughs]
- Angela: For next time. - For next time, yes.
- Thank you so much. - Thank you.
This has been great. - Same.
Art is inherent to Black communities,
yet at times, art is not supported
as a medium for self-care, with financial setbacks
preventing Black people from fully diving into the arts,
creating generational setbacks.
Despite this, Black artists still find ways
to create impact with their work
while instilling joy, confidence, and well-being.
Watch additional episodes
at pbswisconsin.org/ whyracematters.
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is provided by
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and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.