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[gentle music]
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- Norman Gilliland: Welcome
to University Place Presents .
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I'm Norman Gilliland.
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If you've traveled
much through Wisconsin,
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chances are
you've seen them.
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Their horse-drawn buggies
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traveling
on the side of the road.
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The men
in their black felt hats
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and the women
in their kapps and bonnets.
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What sort of life
do they live
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without contemporary
conveniences and necessities?
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And what beliefs are
behind that lifestyle?
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With me is Mark Louden,
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professor in the Department
of German, Nordic, and Slavic
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at the UW-Madison,
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director
of the Max Kade Institute,
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and author of the book
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Pennsylvania Dutch: The Story
of an American Language.
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And welcome
to University Place Presents.
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- Mark Louden:
Thank you very much, Norman.
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It's nice to be here.
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- Well, I think most of us
have seen them,
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and most of us really
don't know much about them.
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There might be some
nostalgia attached
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for some of us to that
lifestyle that we see,
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and we think of Amish
as being great craftsmen
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and also living close
to the earth
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and taking care
of each other.
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- Yes.
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- But as it turns out,
there are, of course,
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all kinds of Amish
in all kinds of places.
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Where do the American Amish
come from?
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- So, the Amish are a
religious group, first of all.
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A lot of people think in terms
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of culture and lifestyle
and, you know,
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limited acceptance
of technology,
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that sort of thing.
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But they're a religious,
Christian denomination
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whose roots go back
actually about 500 years,
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just almost exactly 500 years,
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to what was known
as the Radical Reformation
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in Switzerland.
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And Zurich, Switzerland,
in particular,
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is where the movement
that gave birth to the Amish
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and related groups began.
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- What kind
of religious movement
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are we talking about?
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- So, the term is--
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The umbrella term
to describe the Amish,
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Mennonites,
who are older
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and from whom
the Amish split.
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And then two other groups,
the Hutterites,
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which is a communal group
living in the prairie provinces
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of Canada
and the central United States,
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and then
Churches of the Brethren.
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All four of these branches
of Christianity
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are under the umbrella
of what's known as Anabaptism.
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Anabaptism is a translation
of a German word,
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Wiedertäufer,
meaning literally rebaptizer,
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which was not a compliment
500 years ago,
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but it described the fact
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that the earliest reformers
felt that
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infant baptism was inappropriate
for Christians.
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that to enter into a covenant
with God
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and to make a formal profession
of faith...
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To live
a Christian lifestyle
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and to adopt the core doctrines
of the Christian faith,
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that that should be
a conscious decision made
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on the part of the person.
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So, an infant
is not in the position
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to be able to do that.
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And so, Anabaptists,
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like other
Christian churches,
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not the majority
necessarily,
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but other Christian
churches feel
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that so-called
believer's baptism,
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which is essentially
not adult,
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not child baptism,
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is the more appropriate
choice.
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- Was that dangerous
back in those days?
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- It was not only dangerous,
it was considered heretical.
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It was considered
seditious also,
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because church and state
were kind of
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intimately intertwined
with one another.
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Yeah, so infant baptism
was one way
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that the state
could sort of keep tabs
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on who people were,
how many kids they have
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for taxation purposes.
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- Still helps quite a bit,
doesn't it, for historians.
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- It certainly does,
absolutely, yeah.
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It's a sort of a handy tool
to have.
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- Well, so what happened
to the Mennonites
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then in central Europe
at this time?
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I mean, obviously, other
than persecution and execution.
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- Well, there's a lot of that.
[both chuckle]
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This starts back
basically in 1525,
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which is at the same time
that we're thinking of
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sort of the broader Protestant
Reformation occurring,
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so that's associated
with people like Martin Luther.
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And the--
I would say that,
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you know, from the get-go,
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there was a lot of not only
misunderstanding
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and lack of respect
of the Anabaptists,
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but sort of more
established churches,
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like, for example,
the Roman Catholic Church
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and various emerging
Protestant denominations
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pretty much could agree
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that they did not like
the Anabaptists.
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And so, persecution
was the order of the day.
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It drove
a lot of Anabaptists
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into, to migrate
out of Switzerland
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and other parts of Europe.
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And then, they've been
kind of a people on the move
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for a long time.
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But it was
in the early 1700s,
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so in the American
colonial era
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that they were at the invitation
of William Penn,
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that they began to migrate
to colonial Pennsylvania.
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- Norman: What was William
Penn's thinking at that time?
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Now, he was a Quaker.
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- Mark: He was a Quaker.
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And on the surface,
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there are actually a number
of similarities
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between Quakers
and Anabaptists.
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I would say
the greatest similarity
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is that our churches
are all known
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as peace--
historic peace churches.
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So, our churches reject violence
in all forms.
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As well as-- So, it's not
just simply pacifism,
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but it's actually what we
refer to as nonresistance,
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which means that you
do not engage in violence
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under any circumstances,
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including
in defensive circumstances,
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which is setting the bar
rather high.
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- I would say so offhand,
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and maybe we'll get more
into this later.
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But if we associate
the Amish in this country
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with being in rural areas,
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in some cases,
even the frontier,
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hard to imagine living
a completely nonviolent life,
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nondefensive life.
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- Yes, it's a very, as I say,
it's a hard--
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It's a high bar
to raise for oneself.
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And in times of war,
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really starting even
before America was established
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in the so-called
Seven Years' War,
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the French and Indian War,
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there were pressures on Amish,
Mennonites, and Quakers
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and related groups
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to serve
in a military capacity.
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- Did that carry all the way
through...
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- The war on terror.
- ...World War II and beyond?
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- Yes,
Vietnam, war on terror.
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The questions about
sort of loyalty
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and patriotism
have been a red thread
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following Amish
and Mennonites,
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not only in the United States,
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but everywhere
where they've lived.
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- This predominant
Amish look,
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and we'll look at some
contemporary Amish images.
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What time period
are we talking about
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when we look at the
American Amish?
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I mean,
it looks 19th century,
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early 19th century.
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Where did they get,
in effect, stuck in time?
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- Well, the key
to understanding them
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is that they're actually
not stuck in time.
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Pretty much
every aspect of the Amish,
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call it culture or lifestyle,
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has changed since
their particular branch
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of the Anabaptist movement
emerged in 1693,
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in terms of things like
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the aspects of technology
that they adopt
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or choose not to adopt,
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the material that they use
to make their clothing, right?
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It's all acrylic,
it's synthetic.
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It's not cotton anymore.
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They're not sitting
at the spinning wheel
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and making things.
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They don't make
their own shoes,
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that sort of thing,
the foods that they eat.
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These are things
that are not carried over
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from, you know, the late
17th century in Europe.
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The one thing that's utterly
consistent, though,
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in terms of Amish life and
cultural practices is the--
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are the core aspects
of their faith
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and the structure of their
religious worship services.
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So, basically the kind of,
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the order of worship
that they have
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and their worship
in private homes
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is pretty much unchanged
since 1693
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and actually really going
before that.
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The sermons are original,
right?
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And it's not like
that's not frozen in time,
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but the actual structure
of the worship services,
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their worship services
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and the hymns
that they sing,
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these are, you know,
going on 500 years old.
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- They singing them in Latin
or in Pennsylvania Dutch?
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-Mark: Sing--
Neither one.
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In an archaic form
of standard German,
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which is the, we'll call it
the liturgical language
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or the devotional language
that they use.
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- Well, let's look
at some images then
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and give us some commentary.
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For example,
if we see these Amish women,
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what would you say
is the prevailing nature
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of what they wear?
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- Mark: So, all females,
and these are unmarried women,
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that would be referred to
as girls, right?
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So, that's just simply the way
that the Amish distinguish
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between boys and girls
being unmarried
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and men and women
being married.
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So, these young women,
these girls are actually
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from Lancaster County,
Pennsylvania.
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There are some general
consistencies of dress
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across various Amish subgroups,
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but there are lots and lots
of different subgroups.
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These young women are from
Lancaster County, Pennsylvania.
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This image was probably
taken in Lancaster itself,
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but there are a number
of people,
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including here in Wisconsin,
who are part of what's known
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as the Lancaster, Pennsylvania
Affiliation of the Amish.
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And so, their counterparts
would dress identically.
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All females wear prayer veils,
coverings.
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With girls, little girls,
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it's a little bit variable
sometimes,
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but typically some kind
of head covering
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is considered appropriate
for females.
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- And the beards
for the men?
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- So, the beards without
the mustache for the men.
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- Right.
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- So, the choice of letting
your beard grow long
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was something
that was basically considered
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sort of
an old biblical practice.
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But the shaving
of the mustache
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was an explicit expression
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of distancing oneself
from militarism.
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So, if we think about
sort of like
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your stereotypical,
you know,
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kind of like Prussian general
or, you know, military hero,
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especially from,
like, the 19th century
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in Germanic central Europe,
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you imagine a fair amount
of hair on the upper lip.
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- Norman: Right.
- And that's something that
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goes back actually
hundreds of years.
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And so, that by shaving the
upper lip is, among the men,
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was considered an expression
of nonresistance,
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not militarism.
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- And the trademark
horse and buggy?
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- Mark: So, before about 1910,
1920, it was not unusual to,
252
00:10:30,664 --> 00:10:33,500
for most Americans,
to get around locally
253
00:10:33,567 --> 00:10:35,936
using horse-drawn
transportation.
254
00:10:36,003 --> 00:10:37,604
The buggy is actually
considered--
255
00:10:37,671 --> 00:10:40,507
was considered in the late
19th century among the Amish
256
00:10:40,574 --> 00:10:42,209
to be somewhat fancy,
257
00:10:42,276 --> 00:10:45,746
because before that, they were
actually riding in open wagons.
258
00:10:45,812 --> 00:10:47,014
And to this day,
259
00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,884
some highly traditional Amish
still use open wagons
260
00:10:50,951 --> 00:10:53,921
and do not have
the covered buggies.
261
00:10:53,987 --> 00:10:55,956
So, what
we're looking at here
262
00:10:56,023 --> 00:10:58,725
is a little bit on sort of
the progressive side
263
00:10:58,792 --> 00:11:00,794
going back
to the 19th century.
264
00:11:00,861 --> 00:11:02,362
But the reason why
that they've maintained
265
00:11:02,429 --> 00:11:05,966
horse-drawn transportation
for local distances
266
00:11:06,033 --> 00:11:07,401
rather than the automobile
267
00:11:07,467 --> 00:11:08,969
is a very
conscious decision.
268
00:11:09,036 --> 00:11:11,004
When automobiles came out,
269
00:11:11,071 --> 00:11:14,174
which were, you know,
basically 1920s, 1930s,
270
00:11:14,241 --> 00:11:16,143
like, think of Ford Model A,
Model T.
271
00:11:16,210 --> 00:11:17,544
That sort of thing.
- Norman: Sure.
272
00:11:17,611 --> 00:11:20,047
And the feeling was,
and is, that
273
00:11:20,113 --> 00:11:23,116
private ownership
of automobiles is something
274
00:11:23,183 --> 00:11:25,319
that kind of detracts
from community life.
275
00:11:25,385 --> 00:11:27,120
So, it gives--
- Well, it does, doesn't it?
276
00:11:27,187 --> 00:11:28,455
- It does, absolutely,
right?
277
00:11:28,522 --> 00:11:32,259
It's a symbol of sort of
individual autonomy, yeah.
278
00:11:32,326 --> 00:11:36,129
- Some of the images,
or you want to call it
279
00:11:37,164 --> 00:11:41,301
characterizations
of Amish lifestyles...
280
00:11:43,103 --> 00:11:44,404
[chuckles]
281
00:11:44,471 --> 00:11:47,140
...a little bit hysterical
in some cases. [both chuckle]
282
00:11:47,207 --> 00:11:49,042
- Mark: Yes, that's true,
that's true.
283
00:11:49,109 --> 00:11:52,880
- Norman: And coming from
various parts of the media.
284
00:11:52,946 --> 00:11:55,148
- Mark: Yes,
yeah, the popular media
285
00:11:55,215 --> 00:11:58,585
have done a lot to advance
the visibility,
286
00:11:58,652 --> 00:11:59,786
I would say, of the Amish,
287
00:11:59,853 --> 00:12:02,556
but also
a lot of misunderstandings,
288
00:12:02,623 --> 00:12:04,791
stereotypes, and distortions.
289
00:12:04,858 --> 00:12:07,895
- And actually, it gets
quite extreme.
290
00:12:07,961 --> 00:12:10,931
I'm going to look at some
others here that--
291
00:12:10,998 --> 00:12:12,232
The Amish Mafia.
292
00:12:12,299 --> 00:12:15,035
Why does that seem
like an extreme oxymoron?
293
00:12:15,102 --> 00:12:16,670
- Mark: You're absolutely
correct, there is,
294
00:12:16,737 --> 00:12:19,873
I mean, particularly for a
nonresistant, nonviolent group
295
00:12:19,940 --> 00:12:22,276
to have a so-called reality
TV show
296
00:12:22,342 --> 00:12:25,679
premised on the idea
that there's a sort of Amish,
297
00:12:25,746 --> 00:12:27,714
you know, posse, right,
298
00:12:27,781 --> 00:12:32,119
that's, whose charge is to sort
of defend their community,
299
00:12:32,186 --> 00:12:33,754
perhaps using
a sawed-off shotgun,
300
00:12:33,820 --> 00:12:35,155
which as you see at one side.
301
00:12:35,222 --> 00:12:36,623
That's a complete distortion.
302
00:12:36,690 --> 00:12:40,561
But as we hopefully know,
is that reality TV is,
303
00:12:40,627 --> 00:12:42,062
there's not a whole lot
of reality.
304
00:12:42,129 --> 00:12:45,465
It's TV, but it's not a lot
of reality. [Norman laughs]
305
00:12:45,532 --> 00:12:46,900
And it's a little bit like,
306
00:12:46,967 --> 00:12:48,302
you know,
wrestlers wrestling.
307
00:12:48,368 --> 00:12:49,736
And then there's,
you know,
308
00:12:49,803 --> 00:12:51,171
wrestling for entertainment.
- Yeah, there is.
309
00:12:51,238 --> 00:12:52,739
[Mark laughs]
Yes, so true.
310
00:12:52,806 --> 00:12:54,975
And I guess
some romance novels
311
00:12:55,042 --> 00:12:56,343
have been spun off too.
312
00:12:56,410 --> 00:12:57,711
- Mark:
Yeah, so it's interesting.
313
00:12:57,778 --> 00:12:59,780
You've probably heard
the term bodice ripper, right,
314
00:12:59,847 --> 00:13:01,582
to describe
those Harlequin romances.
315
00:13:01,648 --> 00:13:02,749
- Norman: Yeah, for sure.
316
00:13:02,816 --> 00:13:03,917
- Mark:
Amish-themed romance novels
317
00:13:03,984 --> 00:13:05,853
are referred to
as bonnet rippers.
318
00:13:05,919 --> 00:13:08,121
[both laugh]
So, basically they are--
319
00:13:08,188 --> 00:13:09,923
- Norman: That's about as wild
as they get.
320
00:13:09,990 --> 00:13:11,091
- Mark: Yeah, it's--
321
00:13:11,158 --> 00:13:13,293
They're a form
of Christian fiction,
322
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,329
and they're wildly popular.
323
00:13:15,395 --> 00:13:17,598
- Among the Amish, too?
324
00:13:17,664 --> 00:13:19,199
- Less so among the Amish
themselves,
325
00:13:19,266 --> 00:13:20,834
typically more by outsiders.
326
00:13:20,901 --> 00:13:22,870
If you were to,
you know, form opinions
327
00:13:22,936 --> 00:13:25,239
on a group of people
based on reality TV shows
328
00:13:25,305 --> 00:13:26,773
that sort of deal with them,
329
00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:28,175
romance novels
are gonna make things
330
00:13:28,242 --> 00:13:30,344
a little bit more racy
and exotic
331
00:13:30,410 --> 00:13:32,546
and that sort of thing
than everyday life is.
332
00:13:32,613 --> 00:13:36,216
- This might not be the best
place to ask this question.
333
00:13:36,283 --> 00:13:40,220
But speaking of kind
of outside influences,
334
00:13:40,287 --> 00:13:43,457
we'll say, of Amish life,
is there this phenomenon
335
00:13:43,524 --> 00:13:45,726
of wilding
for young Amish men?
336
00:13:45,792 --> 00:13:48,295
- So, that's one of the most
misunderstood aspects
337
00:13:48,362 --> 00:13:49,696
of Amish life.
338
00:13:49,763 --> 00:13:51,532
The term that's used
is rumspringa,
339
00:13:51,598 --> 00:13:53,066
which is a Pennsylvania Dutch
word
340
00:13:53,133 --> 00:13:55,369
meaning literally to run around.
341
00:13:55,435 --> 00:13:57,171
And if you were to look,
I think even,
342
00:13:57,237 --> 00:13:58,572
like, Wikipedia
has it wrong.
343
00:13:58,639 --> 00:14:02,476
But if you look at sort of
popular media definitions
344
00:14:02,543 --> 00:14:05,345
of what rumspringa
supposedly is,
345
00:14:05,412 --> 00:14:08,115
it's this idea that
somehow young people
346
00:14:08,182 --> 00:14:10,717
are either encouraged
or allowed
347
00:14:10,784 --> 00:14:14,521
to leave the community,
go out into the world,
348
00:14:14,588 --> 00:14:16,356
sow their wild oats,
and then discern
349
00:14:16,423 --> 00:14:17,824
whether they
want to settle down
350
00:14:17,891 --> 00:14:19,393
and join
the community formally.
351
00:14:19,459 --> 00:14:20,727
That's not true.
[both chuckle]
352
00:14:20,794 --> 00:14:24,331
All it means is that simply
when you turn age 16 or 17,
353
00:14:24,398 --> 00:14:26,900
depending on your community,
you are given--
354
00:14:26,967 --> 00:14:29,069
You've entered
into a new stage of life,
355
00:14:29,136 --> 00:14:31,905
which means that adults
allow you to socialize
356
00:14:31,972 --> 00:14:33,774
with other young,
unmarried people
357
00:14:33,841 --> 00:14:35,843
without adult supervision.
358
00:14:35,909 --> 00:14:38,078
And students
in my Amish course,
359
00:14:38,145 --> 00:14:39,680
I teach a course here
at the UW
360
00:14:39,746 --> 00:14:41,515
in religious studies
on the Amish,
361
00:14:41,582 --> 00:14:43,750
and they liken it to, like,
362
00:14:43,817 --> 00:14:45,552
getting their driver's license,
right?
363
00:14:45,619 --> 00:14:47,988
So, it's, you're not exactly
fully autonomous,
364
00:14:48,055 --> 00:14:49,590
but it is a game changer.
365
00:14:49,656 --> 00:14:51,358
- Yes, yes, it would be.
366
00:14:51,425 --> 00:14:54,094
So, is this a point at which
367
00:14:54,161 --> 00:14:57,931
some people leave
the Amish lifestyle?
368
00:14:57,998 --> 00:15:00,667
- It is a time of discernment.
369
00:15:01,168 --> 00:15:04,338
About 85% to 90% of kids
born to Amish parents
370
00:15:04,404 --> 00:15:06,640
do make the decision
to formally join the church
371
00:15:06,707 --> 00:15:08,876
through the act of baptism,
which happens,
372
00:15:08,942 --> 00:15:11,044
I'd say around 18, 19,
20 years old.
373
00:15:11,111 --> 00:15:13,614
So, after a couple of years
of discernment,
374
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:14,781
that happens, yes.
375
00:15:14,848 --> 00:15:17,317
- I can't resist
another image here,
376
00:15:17,384 --> 00:15:20,387
which is counter
to the usual stereotype.
377
00:15:20,454 --> 00:15:21,755
- Mark: Yes.
378
00:15:21,822 --> 00:15:23,924
- Norman: Amish participating
in various kinds of sports.
379
00:15:23,991 --> 00:15:25,259
Does that happen?
380
00:15:25,325 --> 00:15:26,560
- Mark: Absolutely.
381
00:15:26,627 --> 00:15:28,662
So, the image
that we're looking at here
382
00:15:28,729 --> 00:15:31,865
was consciously chosen
by the author, Donald Kraybill,
383
00:15:31,932 --> 00:15:34,368
who was considered the sort
of dean of Amish studies,
384
00:15:34,434 --> 00:15:36,603
a sociologist
who taught for many years
385
00:15:36,670 --> 00:15:39,573
at Elizabethtown College
in Pennsylvania.
386
00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:41,208
And the title of his book is,
387
00:15:41,275 --> 00:15:42,976
this classic book,
he's written several books,
388
00:15:43,043 --> 00:15:45,612
but the one that
we were looking at here
389
00:15:45,679 --> 00:15:47,247
is The Riddle of Amish Culture.
390
00:15:47,314 --> 00:15:49,750
And basically, he's going
from the sort of
391
00:15:49,816 --> 00:15:51,785
popular outsider's view
392
00:15:51,852 --> 00:15:53,887
of the Amish
as a paradox, right?
393
00:15:53,954 --> 00:15:56,223
So, they just,
it's hard to understand,
394
00:15:56,290 --> 00:15:59,359
like, who the Amish are
and the choices that they make,
395
00:15:59,426 --> 00:16:02,029
particularly
when it comes to technology.
396
00:16:02,095 --> 00:16:04,031
So, it's like, "Well, I thought
they weren't supposed to--
397
00:16:04,097 --> 00:16:05,632
"You know, they have horse
and buggy transportation.
398
00:16:05,699 --> 00:16:08,035
"Yet, I saw a whole van load
of Amish people, you know,
399
00:16:08,101 --> 00:16:11,038
"at the, you know,
big box discount store,
400
00:16:11,104 --> 00:16:13,540
"you know, you know,
coming out or whatever.
401
00:16:13,607 --> 00:16:16,343
"So, they can ride
in a vehicle like a van,
402
00:16:16,410 --> 00:16:17,744
"but they can't operate it
themselves.
403
00:16:17,811 --> 00:16:19,079
It doesn't make sense."
404
00:16:19,146 --> 00:16:20,547
This image was chosen.
405
00:16:20,614 --> 00:16:23,750
This is not a reality TV image
that's on this book cover here.
406
00:16:23,817 --> 00:16:26,854
This was an image that basically
shows the fact that the Amish,
407
00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,189
first of all,
are not frozen in time, right?
408
00:16:29,256 --> 00:16:31,792
So, in Lancaster County,
Pennsylvania,
409
00:16:31,859 --> 00:16:35,162
it's actually considered quite
practical with decent weather
410
00:16:35,229 --> 00:16:37,197
to get around using
roller blades.
411
00:16:37,264 --> 00:16:40,000
There are no dirt roads really
anymore in Lancaster County.
412
00:16:40,067 --> 00:16:42,236
So, it's a lot
of short distances
413
00:16:42,302 --> 00:16:44,471
that you can travel on blacktop,
414
00:16:44,538 --> 00:16:47,641
and roller blades and scooters
make a pretty good choice.
415
00:16:47,708 --> 00:16:50,277
- So, they adapt in many ways
416
00:16:50,978 --> 00:16:53,080
to this lifestyle.
- Absolutely.
417
00:16:53,146 --> 00:16:55,282
- Public transportation,
though, you're saying,
418
00:16:55,349 --> 00:16:57,818
is certainly acceptable.
419
00:16:58,218 --> 00:17:00,521
- Yes.
- When it's necessary.
420
00:17:00,587 --> 00:17:03,323
- For long distances,
train is very popular.
421
00:17:03,390 --> 00:17:04,892
So, anybody that rides Amtrak,
422
00:17:04,958 --> 00:17:06,927
especially if they're
going through the Midwest
423
00:17:06,994 --> 00:17:09,129
or the Mid-Atlantic states,
pretty much guaranteed,
424
00:17:09,196 --> 00:17:10,931
you'll see Amish people
on the train.
425
00:17:10,998 --> 00:17:13,534
- Well, let's get further
into the lifestyle.
426
00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:15,269
And if we do that,
427
00:17:16,803 --> 00:17:21,074
let's start with talking
about differences,
428
00:17:21,141 --> 00:17:22,943
if any, among the Amish
429
00:17:23,010 --> 00:17:24,378
in the various parts
of the country.
430
00:17:24,444 --> 00:17:26,947
And what parts of the country
are we talking about?
431
00:17:27,014 --> 00:17:31,151
- So, the Amish are now
represented in 32 U.S. states.
432
00:17:31,218 --> 00:17:34,188
So, most U.S. states
have an Amish presence.
433
00:17:34,254 --> 00:17:35,589
There are three
Canadian provinces
434
00:17:35,656 --> 00:17:36,757
also that have the Amish.
435
00:17:36,823 --> 00:17:38,492
That's pretty much it,
as far as--
436
00:17:38,559 --> 00:17:39,960
There are no Amish left
in Europe.
437
00:17:40,027 --> 00:17:43,463
There's one tiny,
tiny settlement in Bolivia.
438
00:17:43,530 --> 00:17:46,567
Amish have tried migrating
to other countries
439
00:17:46,633 --> 00:17:48,468
even before they came
to North America.
440
00:17:48,535 --> 00:17:50,304
But by and large,
it's just the United States
441
00:17:50,370 --> 00:17:52,239
and Canada nowadays.
442
00:17:52,306 --> 00:17:55,342
And the sort of big three states
443
00:17:55,409 --> 00:17:58,178
in terms of population are
among the oldest population,
444
00:17:58,245 --> 00:18:00,981
so it would be Pennsylvania,
Ohio, and Indiana.
445
00:18:01,048 --> 00:18:02,816
But Wisconsin
is in fourth place.
446
00:18:02,883 --> 00:18:05,152
So, there's between
25,000 and 30,000 Amish
447
00:18:05,219 --> 00:18:06,386
that live here
in Wisconsin.
448
00:18:06,453 --> 00:18:08,755
- Any particular place
in Wisconsin?
449
00:18:08,822 --> 00:18:10,023
Part of Wisconsin?
450
00:18:10,090 --> 00:18:13,026
- By and large, central
and western Wisconsin.
451
00:18:13,093 --> 00:18:14,628
So, there are just a couple
of settlements
452
00:18:14,695 --> 00:18:16,063
in eastern Wisconsin,
453
00:18:16,129 --> 00:18:18,465
none in the far sort of
southeast part of the state,
454
00:18:18,532 --> 00:18:21,301
in the sort of corridor
between Milwaukee and Chicago,
455
00:18:21,368 --> 00:18:23,103
in part because, you know,
456
00:18:23,170 --> 00:18:25,973
inexpensive land
or tracts of land
457
00:18:26,039 --> 00:18:29,476
in rural areas
is not as available there.
458
00:18:29,543 --> 00:18:31,111
But by and large,
we're talking about
459
00:18:31,178 --> 00:18:33,413
sort of central
and western Wisconsin.
460
00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,383
- And do they tend
to be farmers?
461
00:18:36,817 --> 00:18:38,252
- Not anymore.
462
00:18:38,318 --> 00:18:40,721
So, in the same way
that most
463
00:18:40,787 --> 00:18:42,856
sort of historically
American farms,
464
00:18:42,923 --> 00:18:46,260
like small, small-scale
farmers have experienced
465
00:18:46,326 --> 00:18:48,896
some real challenges
by corporate agriculture.
466
00:18:48,962 --> 00:18:50,397
It's just, even for the Amish,
467
00:18:50,464 --> 00:18:53,767
whose overhead
is overall fairly low,
468
00:18:53,834 --> 00:18:58,338
they find it difficult
to support their large families
469
00:18:58,405 --> 00:18:59,640
exclusively in agriculture.
470
00:18:59,706 --> 00:19:00,908
Now, that could be one part
471
00:19:00,974 --> 00:19:04,244
of the sort of economic picture
for a family,
472
00:19:04,311 --> 00:19:06,947
but by and large,
they depend economically
473
00:19:07,014 --> 00:19:08,582
in Wisconsin
and other states,
474
00:19:08,649 --> 00:19:11,885
mostly on small businesses
rather than farming.
475
00:19:11,952 --> 00:19:14,821
- Well, we certainly are aware
of Amish furnitures
476
00:19:14,888 --> 00:19:17,724
having a reputation
for a very solid,
477
00:19:17,791 --> 00:19:19,760
high-quality product.
478
00:19:19,826 --> 00:19:24,031
What other kind of businesses
would typically be Amish?
479
00:19:24,097 --> 00:19:26,433
- So, other things having to do
with wood and lumber,
480
00:19:26,500 --> 00:19:30,470
so things like cabinet making,
pallet shops.
481
00:19:30,537 --> 00:19:32,706
Part of the draw originally
to Wisconsin,
482
00:19:32,773 --> 00:19:35,242
and the Amish have been
a continuous presence here
483
00:19:35,309 --> 00:19:36,643
for over 100 years.
484
00:19:36,710 --> 00:19:38,245
Medford, Wisconsin
in Taylor County
485
00:19:38,312 --> 00:19:42,149
is the oldest
Amish settlement still going.
486
00:19:42,216 --> 00:19:44,551
Part of the draw
was the access to lumber.
487
00:19:44,618 --> 00:19:49,456
And so, furniture is definitely
kind of a popular--
488
00:19:49,523 --> 00:19:51,391
furniture making,
cabinet shops,
489
00:19:51,458 --> 00:19:52,860
very, very popular.
490
00:19:52,926 --> 00:19:54,228
But other businesses
include things like
491
00:19:54,294 --> 00:19:55,896
bulk food stores,
492
00:19:55,963 --> 00:19:59,867
bakeries, nurseries,
garden centers.
493
00:19:59,933 --> 00:20:03,003
All Amish will have pretty
serious garden patches.
494
00:20:03,070 --> 00:20:04,605
And so, they
may do a little bit
495
00:20:04,671 --> 00:20:08,408
of produce farming
as a side enterprise.
496
00:20:08,475 --> 00:20:09,643
Those that do farm
497
00:20:09,710 --> 00:20:11,445
are kind of drawn
to dairy farming,
498
00:20:11,512 --> 00:20:13,213
not surprisingly
in Wisconsin.
499
00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,816
And some have gotten
into sort of niche farming.
500
00:20:15,883 --> 00:20:17,951
So, like, for example,
goat dairy farms.
501
00:20:18,018 --> 00:20:19,219
- Oh, sure.
502
00:20:19,286 --> 00:20:22,956
- And organic farming
is quite popular.
503
00:20:23,023 --> 00:20:25,926
- Are there
Amish communities
504
00:20:25,993 --> 00:20:29,429
in the sense
of villages or towns,
505
00:20:29,496 --> 00:20:31,298
or do they
tend to be spread out?
506
00:20:31,365 --> 00:20:33,400
- They've never been
politically autonomous.
507
00:20:33,467 --> 00:20:35,536
They've always been
integrated politically,
508
00:20:35,602 --> 00:20:38,205
administratively
in the larger communities
509
00:20:38,272 --> 00:20:39,640
of which they're a part.
510
00:20:39,706 --> 00:20:40,974
They tend to cluster together.
511
00:20:41,041 --> 00:20:42,543
So, when we talk about
Amish communities
512
00:20:42,609 --> 00:20:44,111
or Amish settlements,
we're talking about
513
00:20:44,178 --> 00:20:47,147
sort of geographic proximity.
514
00:20:47,214 --> 00:20:48,815
But they are not--
They don't form colonies,
515
00:20:48,882 --> 00:20:51,318
for example, never have.
516
00:20:51,385 --> 00:20:54,087
Population,
you mentioned large families,
517
00:20:54,154 --> 00:20:56,156
increasing of Amish?
518
00:20:56,223 --> 00:20:58,058
- They are--
Their populations are--
519
00:20:58,125 --> 00:21:00,460
The population
is doubling roughly
520
00:21:00,527 --> 00:21:02,429
every 20, 21 years.
521
00:21:02,496 --> 00:21:04,431
- Whoa! [laughs]
- There is no other
522
00:21:04,498 --> 00:21:07,467
human population
on the entire planet
523
00:21:07,534 --> 00:21:10,237
that's growing faster
than the old order Amish
524
00:21:10,304 --> 00:21:12,239
in the United States
and Canada.
525
00:21:12,306 --> 00:21:15,108
Now, there are a few other
conservative religious groups
526
00:21:15,175 --> 00:21:17,344
like Hutterites
that I mentioned before,
527
00:21:17,411 --> 00:21:18,712
horse and buggy-driving
Mennonites,
528
00:21:18,779 --> 00:21:21,448
as well as the Hasidim,
who speak Yiddish, right,
529
00:21:21,515 --> 00:21:23,483
ultra-Orthodox Jews,
530
00:21:23,550 --> 00:21:26,753
who also have very high
average family size,
531
00:21:26,820 --> 00:21:28,689
about six to seven kids
per family,
532
00:21:28,755 --> 00:21:32,292
and retention rates that
are somewhere around 90%.
533
00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,228
And most of the babies
are born healthy.
534
00:21:34,294 --> 00:21:35,596
Their moms are the,
535
00:21:35,662 --> 00:21:37,698
you know,
do well in childbirth.
536
00:21:37,764 --> 00:21:40,067
And, you know, they have
a very high retention rate.
537
00:21:40,133 --> 00:21:44,605
And so, they are--
Their population is booming.
538
00:21:45,272 --> 00:21:49,443
- Give us a day in the life
of an Amish family.
539
00:21:50,878 --> 00:21:52,813
- So, Monday through Saturday
540
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:54,715
would be profoundly different
from Sunday.
541
00:21:54,781 --> 00:21:55,949
So, Sunday is the Sabbath.
542
00:21:56,016 --> 00:21:58,986
So, basically from midnight
Sunday morning
543
00:21:59,052 --> 00:22:01,321
to midnight
Monday morning,
544
00:22:01,388 --> 00:22:03,857
there's no manual labor
that is to be done
545
00:22:03,924 --> 00:22:06,193
other than sort of, like,
basic chores.
546
00:22:06,260 --> 00:22:08,195
That's a day of worship,
it's a day of rest,
547
00:22:08,262 --> 00:22:10,264
it's a day of socializing.
548
00:22:10,330 --> 00:22:13,267
Worship services are held
every other Sunday
549
00:22:13,333 --> 00:22:14,501
in one's church district
550
00:22:14,568 --> 00:22:16,537
because the size
of a church district,
551
00:22:16,603 --> 00:22:18,605
which is similar
to a parish,
552
00:22:18,672 --> 00:22:20,908
is limited by the number
of people
553
00:22:20,974 --> 00:22:23,177
that you can comfortably fit
into your home
554
00:22:23,243 --> 00:22:24,645
for the service.
555
00:22:24,711 --> 00:22:26,280
And so, that's somewhere,
you know,
556
00:22:26,346 --> 00:22:27,814
kind of following
the Amish floor plan,
557
00:22:27,881 --> 00:22:29,516
which is kind of
open concept,
558
00:22:29,583 --> 00:22:32,252
somewhere around
125 to 150.
559
00:22:33,086 --> 00:22:34,188
And so, then--
560
00:22:34,254 --> 00:22:35,789
- In your home.
- In your home.
561
00:22:35,856 --> 00:22:37,124
- Okay.
- In your home.
562
00:22:37,191 --> 00:22:39,326
- Well, they do have--
They start with a large family,
563
00:22:39,393 --> 00:22:41,328
so I guess they're gonna have
a big house anyway.
564
00:22:41,395 --> 00:22:42,496
- Exactly.
565
00:22:42,563 --> 00:22:43,897
And you know,
if the weather's nice,
566
00:22:43,964 --> 00:22:46,700
you can worship in a barn or
a shop, that kind of thing too.
567
00:22:46,767 --> 00:22:47,868
So, when a--
568
00:22:47,935 --> 00:22:49,369
when a community
or a congregation--
569
00:22:49,436 --> 00:22:52,873
they call it church district--
gets above that sort of,
570
00:22:52,940 --> 00:22:55,609
you know, level of about 150,
571
00:22:55,676 --> 00:22:57,344
then they just sort of
naturally divide,
572
00:22:57,411 --> 00:22:59,213
right,
split into another district.
573
00:22:59,279 --> 00:23:00,714
And so, you'll have, like,
for example,
574
00:23:00,781 --> 00:23:02,382
in Lancaster County,
Pennsylvania,
575
00:23:02,449 --> 00:23:05,485
like 115, 120 church districts.
576
00:23:05,552 --> 00:23:08,355
And if you were always
kind of tied down
577
00:23:08,422 --> 00:23:11,191
to go to your immediate
church district every Sunday,
578
00:23:11,258 --> 00:23:13,393
you would never see a lot
of your friends and relatives
579
00:23:13,460 --> 00:23:14,561
and neighbors and so on.
580
00:23:14,628 --> 00:23:16,096
The so-called
"in-between" Sunday,
581
00:23:16,163 --> 00:23:17,297
it's an opportunity
582
00:23:17,364 --> 00:23:20,701
for people to visit
other church congregations.
583
00:23:20,767 --> 00:23:24,471
- What are the relations
between the genders?
584
00:23:24,538 --> 00:23:27,207
- So, I'd say it's equitable.
585
00:23:27,641 --> 00:23:29,543
In other words,
everybody works hard.
586
00:23:29,610 --> 00:23:34,314
There are certain
kind of gender roles that are,
587
00:23:34,381 --> 00:23:36,717
I wouldn't say prescribed,
necessarily,
588
00:23:36,783 --> 00:23:37,951
but are sort of traditional.
589
00:23:38,018 --> 00:23:40,954
So, things that are
generally relating
590
00:23:41,021 --> 00:23:42,923
to outside of the immediate home
591
00:23:42,990 --> 00:23:47,528
tend to be the domain
of the male in the family,
592
00:23:47,594 --> 00:23:50,797
whereas sort of domestic spheres
593
00:23:50,864 --> 00:23:53,166
and things
having to do with child rearing
594
00:23:53,233 --> 00:23:55,269
and child care
and that sort of thing,
595
00:23:55,335 --> 00:23:57,838
the wife may,
or the mother would have
596
00:23:57,905 --> 00:23:59,973
sort of maybe
a little bit greater say-so.
597
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,976
But there's a lot more balance
between the genders
598
00:24:03,043 --> 00:24:04,478
in terms of decision-making,
599
00:24:04,545 --> 00:24:07,915
especially big decisions
like, "Should we move?
600
00:24:07,981 --> 00:24:11,518
Should we invest
in this particular business?"
601
00:24:11,585 --> 00:24:13,654
Or the health care decisions
they're making,
602
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:15,589
for example, about their kids.
603
00:24:15,656 --> 00:24:19,193
Those are decisions that are,
by and large, shared.
604
00:24:19,259 --> 00:24:20,427
I mean, you always
find differences,
605
00:24:20,494 --> 00:24:22,529
as you do in sort of
the general population,
606
00:24:22,596 --> 00:24:25,532
where certain aspects
of family life,
607
00:24:25,599 --> 00:24:29,536
maybe the husband/father
has a sort of,
608
00:24:29,603 --> 00:24:31,305
you know,
greater voice or something
609
00:24:31,371 --> 00:24:34,274
versus the wife
and the mother.
610
00:24:34,341 --> 00:24:38,912
But it's overall, comes out
as fairly equitable, I'd say.
611
00:24:38,979 --> 00:24:41,548
- Is there a separation
in these church services
612
00:24:41,615 --> 00:24:43,917
of genders,
as you might find in some...
613
00:24:43,984 --> 00:24:46,787
- Yes, in terms
of the seating patterns,
614
00:24:46,854 --> 00:24:48,655
they're separated by gender
615
00:24:48,722 --> 00:24:51,291
and then by marital status
and then by age.
616
00:24:51,358 --> 00:24:53,460
So, the oldest married females
617
00:24:53,527 --> 00:24:56,496
and the oldest married males
sit up close to the front.
618
00:24:56,563 --> 00:25:00,467
And then, children
up to the age of about 11
619
00:25:00,534 --> 00:25:02,102
need to be seated with a parent.
620
00:25:02,169 --> 00:25:03,303
But again, talking about sort of
621
00:25:03,370 --> 00:25:04,872
like getting
your driver's license,
622
00:25:04,938 --> 00:25:06,139
moving to the next stage,
623
00:25:06,206 --> 00:25:09,376
before you're able to socialize
with young people,
624
00:25:09,443 --> 00:25:11,778
it's a big deal when you're
able to "sit with the boys"
625
00:25:11,845 --> 00:25:12,946
or "sit with the girls,"
626
00:25:13,013 --> 00:25:14,748
where you don't have to sit
with your parents.
627
00:25:14,815 --> 00:25:16,950
And that happens,
as I say, around the age of 11.
628
00:25:17,017 --> 00:25:20,254
- How does courtship work out
in an Amish community?
629
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,656
- It's a fairly traditional
process.
630
00:25:22,723 --> 00:25:26,994
So, courtship is, you know,
people selecting partners.
631
00:25:27,060 --> 00:25:28,729
They're not assigned partners.
632
00:25:28,795 --> 00:25:31,064
There's no arranged marriage
or anything like that.
633
00:25:31,131 --> 00:25:33,667
It's just simply
the mutual decision
634
00:25:33,734 --> 00:25:35,402
of the partners.
635
00:25:36,570 --> 00:25:38,305
- What would they do on a date?
636
00:25:38,372 --> 00:25:42,075
- So, a date, dates typically
happen on Sunday evenings.
637
00:25:42,142 --> 00:25:45,345
So, the family
that has hosted church that day
638
00:25:45,412 --> 00:25:48,315
invites all the young people
to come back for supper.
639
00:25:48,382 --> 00:25:49,583
And then, if the weather's nice,
640
00:25:49,650 --> 00:25:52,186
play volleyball, games,
and that sort of thing.
641
00:25:52,252 --> 00:25:56,390
And a young male
can invite a female on a date,
642
00:25:57,958 --> 00:26:01,261
and then that would take place
at the female's home.
643
00:26:01,328 --> 00:26:03,764
And typically,
if a girl is dating
644
00:26:03,830 --> 00:26:05,799
or if there are
multiple daughters in a family
645
00:26:05,866 --> 00:26:07,935
that are dating,
they would have, say,
646
00:26:08,001 --> 00:26:10,604
a parlor,
a small room kind of set aside
647
00:26:10,671 --> 00:26:12,105
as their sort of territory
648
00:26:12,172 --> 00:26:13,774
where they can host
their beaus.
649
00:26:13,841 --> 00:26:16,643
- Mm, back to,
well, 19th-century America...
650
00:26:16,710 --> 00:26:17,811
- Yes, absolutely, exactly.
651
00:26:17,878 --> 00:26:19,213
- ...when just about everybody
middle class
652
00:26:19,279 --> 00:26:20,380
or higher than that.
653
00:26:20,447 --> 00:26:21,548
- Yes, it's very--
654
00:26:21,615 --> 00:26:24,218
the sort of dating,
courtship practices
655
00:26:24,284 --> 00:26:28,155
are not, you know,
18th-century European.
656
00:26:28,222 --> 00:26:31,758
They're basically
early American.
657
00:26:31,825 --> 00:26:35,662
- Do they have more than one
kind of costume that they wear
658
00:26:35,729 --> 00:26:37,397
for various circumstances,
659
00:26:37,464 --> 00:26:40,601
or the men always,
as we see, you know, in--
660
00:26:40,667 --> 00:26:42,069
tend to be in the black
661
00:26:42,135 --> 00:26:44,938
and the women
with their skirts and aprons
662
00:26:45,005 --> 00:26:46,507
and kapps and capes?
663
00:26:46,573 --> 00:26:52,179
- So, the basic sort of
designs of dress are consistent.
664
00:26:52,246 --> 00:26:54,748
But there are certain variants,
665
00:26:54,815 --> 00:26:56,450
and certainly the material
it's made
666
00:26:56,517 --> 00:26:57,885
that are more appropriate
for work clothes
667
00:26:57,951 --> 00:26:59,987
versus formal clothes.
668
00:27:00,053 --> 00:27:01,255
So, like,
going-to-church clothes
669
00:27:01,321 --> 00:27:02,823
or going visiting or something.
670
00:27:02,890 --> 00:27:04,424
So, for example, for men,
671
00:27:04,491 --> 00:27:07,594
they would typically wear
denim pants during the week.
672
00:27:07,661 --> 00:27:11,231
You would rarely wear denim
to church.
673
00:27:12,165 --> 00:27:16,637
- When an Amish wants to,
let's say, raise a barn.
674
00:27:18,405 --> 00:27:20,207
Is that a community effort?
675
00:27:20,274 --> 00:27:22,376
- That is definitely a
community effort. [both chuckle]
676
00:27:22,442 --> 00:27:25,145
Raising a barn,
building a shop,
677
00:27:25,212 --> 00:27:28,782
work parties in general
are very, very common events.
678
00:27:28,849 --> 00:27:32,586
And, you know, sort of
work is play, play is work.
679
00:27:32,653 --> 00:27:34,254
Amish are very, very social.
680
00:27:34,321 --> 00:27:36,323
There's no such thing
as an Amish hermit.
681
00:27:36,390 --> 00:27:39,159
There's no such thing as, like,
a rugged Amish individualist.
682
00:27:39,226 --> 00:27:42,462
Everybody thinks in terms
of we/us rather than I/me.
683
00:27:42,529 --> 00:27:46,133
And the barn raising
is a classic example of that.
684
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,001
- Have the Amish...
685
00:27:49,403 --> 00:27:52,873
We're talking
still rural here, been...
686
00:27:55,909 --> 00:27:59,913
...having conflicts
with environmentalists,
687
00:27:59,980 --> 00:28:03,817
given their traditional way
of doing things?
688
00:28:03,884 --> 00:28:05,352
- To a certain extent, yes.
689
00:28:05,419 --> 00:28:08,188
I mean,
basically by being Amish,
690
00:28:08,255 --> 00:28:11,325
your carbon footprint
is just inherently
691
00:28:11,391 --> 00:28:13,927
from the get-go limited, right?
692
00:28:13,994 --> 00:28:18,098
So, things like sort of using--
avoiding a lot of fossil fuels,
693
00:28:18,165 --> 00:28:21,835
I mean, like putting gasoline
in your car, that sort of thing,
694
00:28:21,902 --> 00:28:24,037
not eating a lot
of processed foods, you know,
695
00:28:24,104 --> 00:28:27,674
kind of sort of
farm-to-table diet.
696
00:28:27,741 --> 00:28:30,377
You know, not investing
in fast fashion, right?
697
00:28:30,444 --> 00:28:32,212
These are all things that,
you know,
698
00:28:32,279 --> 00:28:34,882
they kind of avoid
just simply by being Amish.
699
00:28:34,948 --> 00:28:36,083
Now, when it comes to things
700
00:28:36,149 --> 00:28:38,185
like use of pesticides
and herbicides,
701
00:28:38,252 --> 00:28:40,521
they tend to be
fairly low-tech anyway.
702
00:28:40,587 --> 00:28:42,856
So, they don't kind of
run afoul of that.
703
00:28:42,923 --> 00:28:44,491
There have been
some situations--
704
00:28:44,558 --> 00:28:46,994
And situations
including here in Wisconsin
705
00:28:47,060 --> 00:28:50,130
that I've helped sort of serve
as an intermediary for,
706
00:28:50,197 --> 00:28:53,767
where the question of
some groups, they use outhouses.
707
00:28:53,834 --> 00:28:55,769
And so, you know, it's like,
what is happening
708
00:28:55,836 --> 00:28:58,305
with what's referred to
as the blackwater?
709
00:28:58,372 --> 00:29:02,543
Is there proper control of the--
in terms of sanitation,
710
00:29:02,609 --> 00:29:06,446
so that the water table
is not polluted?
711
00:29:06,513 --> 00:29:10,984
- And as far as just disposing
of various things.
712
00:29:13,187 --> 00:29:15,088
I know 150 years ago,
713
00:29:16,423 --> 00:29:19,393
a lot of times,
you just dump it in a ravine
714
00:29:19,459 --> 00:29:21,828
somewhere on the property
and not worry about it.
715
00:29:21,895 --> 00:29:24,431
- Yeah, they are more aware
of the fact that
716
00:29:24,498 --> 00:29:28,101
that can pose some
serious environmental hazards
717
00:29:28,168 --> 00:29:30,103
because that ravine, you know,
718
00:29:30,170 --> 00:29:32,873
the creek that
they're putting something into
719
00:29:32,940 --> 00:29:34,775
is probably connected
to the water source
720
00:29:34,842 --> 00:29:36,176
that they're drinking
from their well,
721
00:29:36,243 --> 00:29:38,345
because they're not
on municipal water systems.
722
00:29:38,412 --> 00:29:40,981
So, just even if they were to be
completely selfish about it,
723
00:29:41,048 --> 00:29:43,917
which they aren't,
but they're also altruistic,
724
00:29:43,984 --> 00:29:45,352
they're thinking about
their communities.
725
00:29:45,419 --> 00:29:49,056
It's like, you know, it behooves
them as well as everybody else--
726
00:29:49,122 --> 00:29:52,292
and the golf courses
that may be close by too--
727
00:29:52,359 --> 00:29:55,429
to be mindful
of what's put on the ground.
728
00:29:55,495 --> 00:29:57,297
- Are there co-ops?
729
00:29:58,932 --> 00:30:01,001
- There are not Amish co-ops,
per se.
730
00:30:01,068 --> 00:30:04,037
They do participate in typically
731
00:30:04,104 --> 00:30:05,906
outside agriculture
cooperatives,
732
00:30:05,973 --> 00:30:08,175
like milk cooperatives.
733
00:30:08,242 --> 00:30:11,144
They're also very strong
supporters of Organic Valley
734
00:30:11,211 --> 00:30:13,180
here in Wisconsin.
735
00:30:13,247 --> 00:30:15,716
But there are, you know,
especially for dairy farmers,
736
00:30:15,782 --> 00:30:18,352
they do participate
in some cooperative enterprises.
737
00:30:18,418 --> 00:30:19,753
But there are not
sort of, like,
738
00:30:19,820 --> 00:30:23,190
Amish internal cooperative
enterprises.
739
00:30:23,257 --> 00:30:25,092
- Do they pay cash?
740
00:30:25,158 --> 00:30:28,195
- They pay cash, but they
also do-- they use banks.
741
00:30:28,262 --> 00:30:30,197
Many use credit cards.
742
00:30:30,264 --> 00:30:32,666
I'd say check writing
is more common among the Amish
743
00:30:32,733 --> 00:30:35,369
than in the general population.
744
00:30:35,435 --> 00:30:38,105
They don't have smartphones,
so they don't have like,
745
00:30:38,172 --> 00:30:41,842
you know, pay with your phone,
that kind of thing.
746
00:30:41,909 --> 00:30:44,411
But checks, and some-- many do
actually use credit cards
747
00:30:44,478 --> 00:30:45,913
or debit cards quite commonly.
748
00:30:45,979 --> 00:30:48,448
- They take out loans?
- They do take out loans.
749
00:30:48,515 --> 00:30:49,616
That's true, yep, yep.
750
00:30:49,683 --> 00:30:50,884
To finance, like, you know,
751
00:30:50,951 --> 00:30:52,886
to get a mortgage,
that sort of thing.
752
00:30:52,953 --> 00:30:56,390
It's, you know, not--
It's possible for every, say,
753
00:30:56,456 --> 00:30:58,992
you know, parents,
set of parents to,
754
00:30:59,059 --> 00:31:02,196
you know, give their children,
you know, enough funds
755
00:31:02,262 --> 00:31:04,431
to make a go of buying
their own property
756
00:31:04,498 --> 00:31:06,266
and starting a business,
that sort of thing.
757
00:31:06,333 --> 00:31:08,836
Particularly when you're talking
about six or seven kids.
758
00:31:08,902 --> 00:31:12,840
- Well, yeah, and population
doubling every 20 years.
759
00:31:12,906 --> 00:31:17,010
Then there's got to be
a lot of buying going on
760
00:31:17,077 --> 00:31:18,178
of one kind or another.
761
00:31:18,245 --> 00:31:19,913
- Absolutely.
762
00:31:20,380 --> 00:31:24,051
- Do Amish have,
occasionally, day jobs
763
00:31:25,385 --> 00:31:27,287
such as
university professorships,
764
00:31:27,354 --> 00:31:29,890
and then go back to the fold
at the end of the day?
765
00:31:29,957 --> 00:31:31,325
How does that work?
- Yes.
766
00:31:31,391 --> 00:31:34,061
Not so much in Wisconsin, but
especially in northern Indiana.
767
00:31:34,127 --> 00:31:36,396
So, like in the Elkhart,
LaGrange County area
768
00:31:36,463 --> 00:31:37,764
in northern Indiana,
769
00:31:37,831 --> 00:31:41,101
that's considered sort of
America's RV capital, right?
770
00:31:41,168 --> 00:31:43,170
- [chuckles] Yeah.
- And a lot of these factories
771
00:31:43,237 --> 00:31:45,739
that are making
manufactured housing and RVs
772
00:31:45,806 --> 00:31:48,175
and, you know, ambulances
and that sort of thing,
773
00:31:48,242 --> 00:31:50,210
much of the workforce
is Amish there.
774
00:31:50,277 --> 00:31:51,778
And so, they're actually
employed
775
00:31:51,845 --> 00:31:54,414
by non-Amish enterprises.
776
00:31:54,882 --> 00:31:56,850
And they're using all kinds
of power tools
777
00:31:56,917 --> 00:31:59,786
and eating their lunch
in the electrified,
778
00:31:59,853 --> 00:32:01,855
you know, break room
and that sort of thing,
779
00:32:01,922 --> 00:32:04,424
and then going back
to their farm in the afternoon.
780
00:32:04,491 --> 00:32:08,295
- We have a couple of charts
here coming up
781
00:32:09,429 --> 00:32:14,001
that may require a long look
to get the most out of,
782
00:32:15,536 --> 00:32:19,273
but one of them
has to do with the relationship
783
00:32:19,339 --> 00:32:21,241
among the various--
784
00:32:21,575 --> 00:32:25,312
we'll call them subgroups
of Mennonites and Amish.
785
00:32:25,379 --> 00:32:28,081
And can you just give us
a quick gloss of this?
786
00:32:28,148 --> 00:32:30,083
- Mark: Yeah, so at the top
of that chart,
787
00:32:30,150 --> 00:32:31,485
you see the term Anabaptist,
right?
788
00:32:31,552 --> 00:32:33,820
And then, the year 1525.
789
00:32:33,887 --> 00:32:35,189
Last year was a big year.
790
00:32:35,255 --> 00:32:38,158
It was the 500th anniversary
of the Anabaptist movement.
791
00:32:38,225 --> 00:32:40,561
And there were lots
of commemorative events,
792
00:32:40,627 --> 00:32:42,563
local and international.
793
00:32:42,629 --> 00:32:44,097
I was very excited to go
794
00:32:44,164 --> 00:32:46,900
to Zurich, Switzerland,
in late May.
795
00:32:46,967 --> 00:32:48,101
- Norman:
Kind of the birthplace.
796
00:32:48,168 --> 00:32:49,703
- Mark: The birthplace
where it all began.
797
00:32:49,770 --> 00:32:50,871
And there were Anabaptists--
798
00:32:50,938 --> 00:32:52,039
There were several thousand
Anabaptists
799
00:32:52,105 --> 00:32:53,207
from around the world
800
00:32:53,273 --> 00:32:56,677
that all gathered together in--
on that day.
801
00:32:56,743 --> 00:32:59,913
But the four major branches
of Anabaptism
802
00:32:59,980 --> 00:33:03,984
are Mennonites,
Amish, Hutterites, and Brethren.
803
00:33:04,051 --> 00:33:07,354
Hutterites, I think,
would be considered the oldest.
804
00:33:07,421 --> 00:33:10,524
But Mennonites are
also quite old.
805
00:33:10,591 --> 00:33:14,695
Hutterites were already
getting established around 1525.
806
00:33:14,761 --> 00:33:16,330
Mennonites, about that time,
807
00:33:16,396 --> 00:33:18,298
although they were not using
the name Mennonite
808
00:33:18,365 --> 00:33:19,733
at that point.
809
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:21,101
And then, as I say,
810
00:33:21,168 --> 00:33:25,072
the Amish kind of split off
of Swiss Mennonites in 1693.
811
00:33:25,138 --> 00:33:27,541
And then the Brethren group,
that fourth group
812
00:33:27,608 --> 00:33:30,544
were also
traditionally known as Dunkards
813
00:33:30,611 --> 00:33:32,846
because they practiced
full-immersion baptism.
814
00:33:32,913 --> 00:33:34,548
[Norman chuckles]
Dunking.
815
00:33:34,615 --> 00:33:37,885
- When the person being
baptized was 16 years old or so.
816
00:33:37,951 --> 00:33:40,621
- Correct, correct,
and here's a little fun fact.
817
00:33:40,687 --> 00:33:44,091
So, the English verb "to dunk,"
right,
818
00:33:44,157 --> 00:33:46,693
sounds like an old sort of
Germanic verb.
819
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:51,632
It is the only word in sort of
standard American English
820
00:33:51,698 --> 00:33:54,635
that has been borrowed
from Pennsylvania Dutch.
821
00:33:54,701 --> 00:33:55,903
[laughs]
Dunke.
822
00:33:55,969 --> 00:33:57,304
- Fascinating fact.
- Yeah.
823
00:33:57,371 --> 00:33:59,773
- As long as we're talking
about language
824
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:01,808
and we've heard about
Pennsylvania Dutch...
825
00:34:01,875 --> 00:34:03,243
- Yeah.
826
00:34:03,310 --> 00:34:07,047
- Give us the gloss
on the language of the Amish.
827
00:34:07,114 --> 00:34:09,816
- So, the language
that's associated with the Amish
828
00:34:09,883 --> 00:34:11,318
pretty much exclusively today
829
00:34:11,385 --> 00:34:13,687
is a language called
Pennsylvania Dutch.
830
00:34:13,754 --> 00:34:17,124
It's a language whose roots
go back almost 300 years
831
00:34:17,191 --> 00:34:20,127
into colonial Pennsylvania.
832
00:34:20,194 --> 00:34:23,530
From about 1710
to about 1765, 1770,
833
00:34:24,064 --> 00:34:27,801
there were about 81,000 speakers
of German dialects
834
00:34:27,868 --> 00:34:29,770
from southern,
southwestern Germany
835
00:34:29,837 --> 00:34:31,839
that migrated
to colonial Pennsylvania.
836
00:34:31,905 --> 00:34:33,674
So, 81,000.
837
00:34:33,740 --> 00:34:36,610
Of that group, there were maybe
1,500 who were Mennonites,
838
00:34:36,677 --> 00:34:39,580
and then maybe 300 to 500
who were Amish.
839
00:34:39,646 --> 00:34:41,815
So, the vast majority
of the people
840
00:34:41,882 --> 00:34:44,284
that became known
as the Pennsylvania Dutch
841
00:34:44,351 --> 00:34:46,787
had really nothing to do
with the Amish or Mennonites
842
00:34:46,854 --> 00:34:48,689
other than living
in the same communities,
843
00:34:48,755 --> 00:34:50,057
the same general areas.
844
00:34:50,123 --> 00:34:51,625
They were, by and large,
Protestant,
845
00:34:51,692 --> 00:34:55,395
so members of Lutheran
and German Reformed churches.
846
00:34:55,462 --> 00:34:57,264
The majority of the
847
00:34:57,798 --> 00:34:59,399
Pennsylvania Dutch-speaking
population--
848
00:34:59,466 --> 00:35:01,802
Pennsylvania Dutch is
essentially a kind of
849
00:35:01,869 --> 00:35:05,038
what we call
a coalesced dialect of German
850
00:35:05,105 --> 00:35:07,808
that has become
an autonomous Germanic language,
851
00:35:07,875 --> 00:35:10,043
'cause it's not spoken
in Europe anymore.
852
00:35:10,110 --> 00:35:11,645
It's not mutually intelligible
with German.
853
00:35:11,712 --> 00:35:13,947
It's not mutually intelligible
with the dialects
854
00:35:14,014 --> 00:35:16,350
in southwestern Germany
from whence it sprang.
855
00:35:16,416 --> 00:35:19,453
- Changed that fast?
- Yeah, it did.
856
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,389
One important factor was that,
from the get-go,
857
00:35:22,456 --> 00:35:25,158
the speakers of Pennsylvania
Dutch were bilingual,
858
00:35:25,225 --> 00:35:27,027
and so, to speak
Pennsylvania Dutch,
859
00:35:27,094 --> 00:35:29,229
you have to also speak English,
right?
860
00:35:29,296 --> 00:35:30,964
- Truly?
- Yeah.
861
00:35:31,431 --> 00:35:34,001
- An interesting fact that,
862
00:35:34,401 --> 00:35:36,270
the only president
of the United States
863
00:35:36,336 --> 00:35:39,640
who grew up with English
as a second language--
864
00:35:39,706 --> 00:35:40,807
Martin Van Buren.
865
00:35:40,874 --> 00:35:42,509
- Martin Van Buren,
yeah, a Dutch speaker.
866
00:35:42,576 --> 00:35:44,511
His wife was also
a native speaker of Dutch,
867
00:35:44,578 --> 00:35:47,548
and they used Dutch as a secret
language in the White House.
868
00:35:47,614 --> 00:35:49,716
- Oh, no kidding?
- Yeah.
869
00:35:49,783 --> 00:35:51,952
There would be some advantages
to that, wouldn't there?
870
00:35:52,019 --> 00:35:54,221
- Yeah, yeah, that's true.
871
00:35:54,288 --> 00:35:57,624
- Well, okay, as long
as we've gotten to that,
872
00:35:57,691 --> 00:36:00,027
let's, I know we have this
873
00:36:01,361 --> 00:36:04,198
bit of prose here
in Pennsylvania Dutch.
874
00:36:04,264 --> 00:36:05,499
- Yeah.
875
00:36:05,566 --> 00:36:08,335
- And can you give us a sense
of what it sounds like
876
00:36:08,402 --> 00:36:10,304
and what the text is?
877
00:36:11,205 --> 00:36:12,606
- Sure, so this is--
878
00:36:12,673 --> 00:36:14,174
So Pennsylvania Dutch is,
by and large,
879
00:36:14,241 --> 00:36:16,376
an oral vernacular language.
880
00:36:16,443 --> 00:36:19,413
So, it's largely just spoken
rather than written down,
881
00:36:19,479 --> 00:36:22,249
although there's a
fairly long literary tradition
882
00:36:22,316 --> 00:36:24,418
going back to the early 1800s
883
00:36:24,484 --> 00:36:27,688
of writing Pennsylvania Dutch
poetry and prose.
884
00:36:27,754 --> 00:36:29,356
But for most Amish today,
885
00:36:29,423 --> 00:36:32,025
their literacy needs
are met by English, right?
886
00:36:32,092 --> 00:36:34,027
Their schools
are all conducted in English.
887
00:36:34,094 --> 00:36:35,696
And by standard German,
888
00:36:35,762 --> 00:36:37,698
which they learn to read
and recite
889
00:36:37,764 --> 00:36:41,101
and sing from
for devotional purposes.
890
00:36:41,168 --> 00:36:42,336
There are, you know,
891
00:36:42,402 --> 00:36:44,738
some do,
as a kind of sideline,
892
00:36:44,805 --> 00:36:46,240
sort of write
in Pennsylvania Dutch.
893
00:36:46,306 --> 00:36:48,308
And what I'm gonna
be reading from you now
894
00:36:48,375 --> 00:36:50,043
is a-- for you--
895
00:36:50,611 --> 00:36:53,814
is an excerpt from a book
of children's Bible stories
896
00:36:53,881 --> 00:36:55,315
written in Pennsylvania Dutch
897
00:36:55,382 --> 00:36:57,084
that was put together
by a committee
898
00:36:57,150 --> 00:36:59,319
of native speakers
of Pennsylvania Dutch
899
00:36:59,386 --> 00:37:02,923
who worked with a team
from the Wycliffe Society
900
00:37:02,990 --> 00:37:06,560
to translate
the entire Christian Bible
901
00:37:06,627 --> 00:37:08,962
from the original languages
into Pennsylvania Dutch.
902
00:37:09,029 --> 00:37:13,967
It's a project that took some 30
years and was completed in 2013.
903
00:37:14,034 --> 00:37:15,369
And so, as a sort of sideline,
904
00:37:15,435 --> 00:37:16,970
they say, "Well,
we're doing all this work
905
00:37:17,037 --> 00:37:18,272
"to translate scripture
into Pennsylvania Dutch.
906
00:37:18,338 --> 00:37:21,608
Why don't we have
some sort of auxiliary texts?"
907
00:37:21,675 --> 00:37:24,011
And so, the title of this book
is Vella Laysa,
908
00:37:24,077 --> 00:37:25,646
right,
which means "Let's Read."
909
00:37:25,712 --> 00:37:28,182
And the subtitle is
Bivvel Shtoahris Fa Kinnah.
910
00:37:28,248 --> 00:37:30,284
"Bible Stories for Children."
911
00:37:30,350 --> 00:37:31,952
Now, for folks that know German,
912
00:37:32,019 --> 00:37:34,154
you just look at this and
you think, "That ain't German."
913
00:37:34,221 --> 00:37:35,389
Right?
[Norman chuckles]
914
00:37:35,455 --> 00:37:37,457
- Norman: Not even as close
as Yiddish, I guess.
915
00:37:37,524 --> 00:37:38,692
- Mark: Yeah, it's basically--
916
00:37:38,759 --> 00:37:40,427
the orthography
that's used here--
917
00:37:40,494 --> 00:37:42,396
There is no standard orthography
for Pennsylvania Dutch,
918
00:37:42,462 --> 00:37:44,865
but the orthography
that's typically preferred
919
00:37:44,932 --> 00:37:46,667
by native speakers is English,
920
00:37:46,733 --> 00:37:50,504
because their main literacy
needs are met by English.
921
00:37:50,571 --> 00:37:52,973
And so, if we look
at that slide there
922
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:54,374
and, say, the cover
where it says
923
00:37:54,441 --> 00:37:56,643
Vella Laysa:
Bivvel Shtoahris Fa Kinnah,
924
00:37:56,710 --> 00:37:58,879
I'll give you an example of--
925
00:37:58,946 --> 00:38:02,149
I won't translate it because
the plot is fairly familiar.
926
00:38:02,216 --> 00:38:07,221
It's the beginning of the
creation story from Genesis 1:1.
927
00:38:07,287 --> 00:38:09,356
And this is
how you would basically read
928
00:38:09,423 --> 00:38:12,426
the creation story to children,
929
00:38:13,827 --> 00:38:15,896
I'd say at bedtime,
in Pennsylvania Dutch.
930
00:38:15,963 --> 00:38:17,631
So, it's not the Bible per se,
931
00:38:17,698 --> 00:38:21,468
but it's basically colloquial
Pennsylvania Dutch.
932
00:38:21,535 --> 00:38:23,871
"Da Shteaht Funn Di Eaht.
933
00:38:24,605 --> 00:38:27,040
"Vay lang zrikk
hott's kenn eaht katt,
934
00:38:27,107 --> 00:38:29,776
"kenn leit, kenn helling.
935
00:38:29,843 --> 00:38:33,080
"Es voah alles yusht
dunkel gvest.
936
00:38:33,714 --> 00:38:38,852
"Fa shteahra mitt hott Gott
da himmel un di eaht gmacht.
937
00:38:39,486 --> 00:38:42,789
"No hott Eah ksawt,
'Loss es licht sei.'
938
00:38:42,856 --> 00:38:45,893
"Yusht vi sell
voah's licht gvest.
939
00:38:45,959 --> 00:38:50,264
"Gott hott's licht dawk kaysa,
un's dunkel nacht.
940
00:38:50,330 --> 00:38:53,967
"Dess voah no da eahsht dawk
es selayva voah.
941
00:38:54,034 --> 00:38:57,471
"Da neksht dawk
hott eah di volka gmacht.
942
00:38:57,538 --> 00:39:01,575
"Eah hott aw di luft gmacht
so es ma shnaufa kann.
943
00:39:01,642 --> 00:39:05,379
"Uf da dritt dawk hott
eah's vassah un's land fadayld.
944
00:39:05,445 --> 00:39:08,315
"Eah hott da say un di hivvla
gmacht sellah dawk.
945
00:39:08,382 --> 00:39:11,985
"Eah hott no ksawt, 'Loss dibaym
un's graws shteahra vaxa.'
946
00:39:12,052 --> 00:39:14,721
Un si henn
no kshteaht vaxa."
947
00:39:15,622 --> 00:39:18,392
- Norman: Would almost work
for code talking, wouldn't it?
948
00:39:18,458 --> 00:39:20,527
- [laughs] Yes, actually,
you're right.
949
00:39:20,594 --> 00:39:22,696
Except they wouldn't have been
serving in the military, so...
950
00:39:22,763 --> 00:39:25,165
- There is that,
there is that.
951
00:39:25,232 --> 00:39:27,701
But, yes, you say,
well, it sounds like German,
952
00:39:27,768 --> 00:39:30,037
but I don't recognize
a single German word in there.
953
00:39:30,103 --> 00:39:31,572
Himmel maybe at one point.
954
00:39:31,638 --> 00:39:35,976
- Yeah, himmel, Gott, you know,
and some things, yeah.
955
00:39:36,043 --> 00:39:38,612
- And so, when they're home,
956
00:39:40,781 --> 00:39:43,217
the Amish are always
speaking Pennsylvania Dutch.
957
00:39:43,283 --> 00:39:44,384
- That's correct.
958
00:39:44,451 --> 00:39:45,786
So, when there are
not outsiders present
959
00:39:45,853 --> 00:39:49,189
that don't speak
Pennsylvania Dutch,
960
00:39:49,256 --> 00:39:51,458
then they are
speaking Pennsylvania Dutch.
961
00:39:51,525 --> 00:39:52,860
In school, however,
962
00:39:52,926 --> 00:39:55,429
it's basically English only
is the rule.
963
00:39:55,495 --> 00:39:57,431
And because they say that,
you know,
964
00:39:57,497 --> 00:40:00,767
in order to be able to thrive
in North American society,
965
00:40:00,834 --> 00:40:04,238
they've got to be bilingual,
and so their kids are, you know,
966
00:40:04,304 --> 00:40:06,874
schooled by immersion
in English.
967
00:40:06,940 --> 00:40:08,675
Some teachers
may sometimes require
968
00:40:08,742 --> 00:40:11,545
that Pennsylvania Dutch be
avoided also on the playground
969
00:40:11,612 --> 00:40:14,314
so they kind of get used
to using English colloquially
970
00:40:14,381 --> 00:40:15,482
with one another.
971
00:40:15,549 --> 00:40:16,683
On the other hand, you know,
972
00:40:16,750 --> 00:40:18,485
some may just play
in Pennsylvania Dutch as well.
973
00:40:18,552 --> 00:40:20,287
But basically, you walk
into that schoolhouse,
974
00:40:20,354 --> 00:40:21,788
it's English, and then you leave
975
00:40:21,855 --> 00:40:23,757
and then you speak
Pennsylvania Dutch again.
976
00:40:23,824 --> 00:40:26,093
- Are there any points of--
977
00:40:26,159 --> 00:40:30,063
I'll say conflict
between the Amish lifestyle
978
00:40:30,130 --> 00:40:33,367
and the government requirements?
979
00:40:35,636 --> 00:40:36,904
- Yes.
980
00:40:36,970 --> 00:40:39,439
I would say, you know, we've
been talking about sort of
981
00:40:39,506 --> 00:40:43,043
the militaristic question
and times of war.
982
00:40:43,110 --> 00:40:44,645
You know,
being a conscientious objector,
983
00:40:44,711 --> 00:40:48,182
that was not even an official
option until after Vietnam.
984
00:40:48,248 --> 00:40:51,385
And so, there were conflicts
between, you know,
985
00:40:51,451 --> 00:40:54,221
communities and sometimes
families and draft boards
986
00:40:54,288 --> 00:40:55,556
and that sort of thing.
987
00:40:55,622 --> 00:41:00,093
I would say that's one sort
of point of conflict.
988
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,396
Social Security was
also an issue.
989
00:41:02,462 --> 00:41:03,564
- Norman: Really?
990
00:41:03,630 --> 00:41:05,365
- In the first half
of the 20th century.
991
00:41:05,432 --> 00:41:06,533
So, during the New Deal,
992
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:07,801
when Social Security
was started,
993
00:41:07,868 --> 00:41:10,270
it was something that every
single American taxpayer
994
00:41:10,337 --> 00:41:12,673
was expected
to become a part of.
995
00:41:12,739 --> 00:41:14,374
And that's the way that,
996
00:41:14,441 --> 00:41:17,444
you know, that's how the system
is ideally supposed to work.
997
00:41:17,511 --> 00:41:19,279
Now, the Amish are
"paying unto Caesar
998
00:41:19,346 --> 00:41:21,882
what is lawfully Caesar's"
kind of thing.
999
00:41:21,949 --> 00:41:24,718
But they say Social Security is
different, right?
1000
00:41:24,785 --> 00:41:27,054
Because you pay into a system
1001
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,990
that then sort of pays
you back in your later years,
1002
00:41:30,057 --> 00:41:33,493
and they practice a kind of
community self-reliance
1003
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,396
such that retirement accounts,
1004
00:41:36,463 --> 00:41:39,600
pensions, and Social Security
are not necessary.
1005
00:41:39,666 --> 00:41:41,768
And so, after years
of kind of negotiating
1006
00:41:41,835 --> 00:41:43,770
with the
Social Security Administration,
1007
00:41:43,837 --> 00:41:47,808
in the 1950s, they and other
similar religious groups
1008
00:41:47,875 --> 00:41:50,944
that declined
to accept government assistance
1009
00:41:51,011 --> 00:41:55,549
on sort of spiritual grounds
were allowed to opt out
1010
00:41:55,616 --> 00:41:58,552
of paying into Social Security
1011
00:41:58,619 --> 00:42:00,554
if they promise never
to collect it
1012
00:42:00,621 --> 00:42:02,556
and if they're also
self-employed.
1013
00:42:02,623 --> 00:42:05,259
So, those Amish people
that work in, say, factories,
1014
00:42:05,325 --> 00:42:06,627
for example,
1015
00:42:06,693 --> 00:42:08,195
they have to have
Social Security withheld
1016
00:42:08,262 --> 00:42:10,063
because they're
not self-employed.
1017
00:42:10,130 --> 00:42:12,065
So, it's essentially
kind of a gift to the government
1018
00:42:12,132 --> 00:42:13,867
that those taxpayers
are making.
1019
00:42:13,934 --> 00:42:15,269
- Anything else other than--
1020
00:42:15,335 --> 00:42:18,005
I mean, Social Security
is surprising when you say it,
1021
00:42:18,071 --> 00:42:19,873
but then you see the logic.
1022
00:42:19,940 --> 00:42:21,208
- Yeah.
1023
00:42:21,275 --> 00:42:23,544
Another thing that's sort
of quasi governmental is that,
1024
00:42:23,610 --> 00:42:25,379
again, that they don't accept
government assistance,
1025
00:42:25,445 --> 00:42:28,482
but they also don't buy
private health insurance.
1026
00:42:28,549 --> 00:42:31,118
So, when it comes
to the health care system,
1027
00:42:31,185 --> 00:42:33,654
they are self-pay patients.
1028
00:42:33,720 --> 00:42:37,658
And that's a real challenge
in our U.S. health care system.
1029
00:42:37,724 --> 00:42:40,060
- More so all the time.
- More so all the time.
1030
00:42:40,127 --> 00:42:41,295
You're absolutely correct.
1031
00:42:41,361 --> 00:42:43,397
- Well, how do they handle
something that would be,
1032
00:42:43,463 --> 00:42:47,000
you know, major operation,
a lot of money involved?
1033
00:42:47,067 --> 00:42:50,671
- So, what they do is they
tend to negotiate discounts.
1034
00:42:50,737 --> 00:42:53,540
So, they say,
"We want to pay our fair share,
1035
00:42:53,607 --> 00:42:55,876
just not much more
than our fair share, please."
1036
00:42:55,943 --> 00:42:57,678
And so, basically
what they do is they try
1037
00:42:57,744 --> 00:42:59,913
and get the so-called
chargemaster rates
1038
00:42:59,980 --> 00:43:02,449
down to something close
to what insurers would pay,
1039
00:43:02,516 --> 00:43:06,520
which is about 70% discount,
or the medical assistance rate,
1040
00:43:06,587 --> 00:43:08,422
which is like Medicaid
and Medicare,
1041
00:43:08,488 --> 00:43:11,124
which is somewhere
between 80% and 85%
1042
00:43:11,191 --> 00:43:15,195
off the so-called
sticker price for health care.
1043
00:43:15,262 --> 00:43:18,799
- So, all of these contemporary
conveniences and necessities
1044
00:43:18,866 --> 00:43:22,135
that I mentioned at the
beginning of the conversation,
1045
00:43:22,202 --> 00:43:25,439
they pretty much can live
without,
1046
00:43:26,073 --> 00:43:29,009
if we're talking about,
for example--
1047
00:43:29,076 --> 00:43:30,811
Well, actually we have a chart
for that too,
1048
00:43:30,878 --> 00:43:32,412
come to think of it.
- Yeah, yeah.
1049
00:43:32,479 --> 00:43:37,951
- As to what various kinds of
Amish are willing to live with.
1050
00:43:40,587 --> 00:43:43,924
And it's really
quite interesting.
1051
00:43:44,491 --> 00:43:45,592
Go through that for us.
1052
00:43:45,659 --> 00:43:47,394
- Mark: Yes,
so there are about 40,
1053
00:43:47,461 --> 00:43:49,196
at least 40 different
Amish subgroups,
1054
00:43:49,263 --> 00:43:51,398
and so on this chart here,
we've got about a dozen--
1055
00:43:51,465 --> 00:43:53,767
that's the column
on the far left there--
1056
00:43:53,834 --> 00:43:56,203
from the most traditional
or most conservative
1057
00:43:56,270 --> 00:43:58,539
to the most progressive, right?
1058
00:43:58,605 --> 00:43:59,940
Those are from top to bottom.
1059
00:44:00,007 --> 00:44:01,341
And then going
from left to right--
1060
00:44:01,408 --> 00:44:03,744
and this is taken
from Wikipedia--
1061
00:44:03,810 --> 00:44:06,813
from left to right
you see aspects of technology
1062
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:08,048
that have been sort of,
1063
00:44:08,115 --> 00:44:09,716
where there have been
differences of opinion
1064
00:44:09,783 --> 00:44:11,385
across different groups.
1065
00:44:11,451 --> 00:44:12,819
So, by and large,
1066
00:44:12,886 --> 00:44:15,789
on the far left column there,
we see "Tractor for fieldwork."
1067
00:44:15,856 --> 00:44:20,093
So, rather than using draft
horses for field cultivation,
1068
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,230
tractors are okay, but only in
a very small number of groups.
1069
00:44:23,297 --> 00:44:25,732
So, that's the green "yes" box
at the bottom there.
1070
00:44:25,799 --> 00:44:27,935
Everybody else
has that sort of orange "no."
1071
00:44:28,001 --> 00:44:29,369
- Norman: They still use a team.
1072
00:44:29,436 --> 00:44:31,071
- Mark: Still use a team, right?
1073
00:44:31,138 --> 00:44:33,874
But then, if you go all the way
to the right of that chart,
1074
00:44:33,941 --> 00:44:35,676
you see
"Motorized washing machines."
1075
00:44:35,742 --> 00:44:38,278
Now, this is where Amish females
have kind of put their foot down
1076
00:44:38,345 --> 00:44:40,881
and said, "You know,
six to seven kids per family,
1077
00:44:40,948 --> 00:44:42,516
"even if we're not doing
laundry every day,
1078
00:44:42,583 --> 00:44:45,085
that's a lot of clothes
to wash."
1079
00:44:45,152 --> 00:44:48,055
And there's a big difference
between a washboard,
1080
00:44:48,121 --> 00:44:50,224
taking your washboard down
to a creek
1081
00:44:50,290 --> 00:44:52,125
versus using
a motorized washing machine.
1082
00:44:52,192 --> 00:44:54,761
So, motorized washing machines
are essentially
1083
00:44:54,828 --> 00:44:56,096
all but universal.
1084
00:44:56,163 --> 00:44:58,799
Now, they're not electric,
electricity driven.
1085
00:44:58,866 --> 00:45:00,801
- I was gonna say, yeah,
how does that work?
1086
00:45:00,868 --> 00:45:02,436
- So, they're basically
the old wringer washers,
1087
00:45:02,503 --> 00:45:04,571
like, that Maytag made
until the 1980s.
1088
00:45:04,638 --> 00:45:05,739
- No kidding?
1089
00:45:05,806 --> 00:45:07,341
- So, it's a little bit
like the,
1090
00:45:07,407 --> 00:45:09,543
you know, the '50s cars in Cuba
or something like that.
1091
00:45:09,610 --> 00:45:11,979
The Amish keep the wringer
washers going and repaired,
1092
00:45:12,045 --> 00:45:14,381
but they're run
by little Honda motors.
1093
00:45:14,448 --> 00:45:16,884
So, little gasoline motors
or diesel motors.
1094
00:45:16,950 --> 00:45:18,285
- Not by mules.
1095
00:45:18,352 --> 00:45:21,054
- Not by mules, no.
[both laugh]
1096
00:45:21,121 --> 00:45:22,890
- But it does give you
a good sense,
1097
00:45:22,956 --> 00:45:26,260
this graph again,
the varieties of Amish out there
1098
00:45:26,326 --> 00:45:31,498
and how various groups range
from very ultra conservative
1099
00:45:31,565 --> 00:45:35,202
to what would be called
more conventional.
1100
00:45:35,269 --> 00:45:37,738
Your experience as Amish?
1101
00:45:40,541 --> 00:45:42,843
- Experience in terms of, like,
how I've...
1102
00:45:42,910 --> 00:45:44,611
- Yeah.
- ...gotten into this?
1103
00:45:44,678 --> 00:45:46,013
- Yeah.
1104
00:45:46,079 --> 00:45:50,784
- So, I was not raised
in a churchgoing home as a kid.
1105
00:45:50,851 --> 00:45:52,519
I was not baptized as a child.
1106
00:45:52,586 --> 00:45:56,156
But I felt a draw
to the Christian faith
1107
00:45:56,657 --> 00:45:57,991
fairly early in life.
1108
00:45:58,058 --> 00:46:00,093
And when I was in college,
1109
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,529
I was visiting a lot
of different churches,
1110
00:46:02,596 --> 00:46:04,498
friends' churches
and that sort of thing.
1111
00:46:04,565 --> 00:46:07,734
On a large college campus,
there's a lot of diversity.
1112
00:46:07,801 --> 00:46:10,270
But my first year
of graduate school,
1113
00:46:10,337 --> 00:46:12,940
I felt particularly drawn
to Anabaptism
1114
00:46:13,006 --> 00:46:14,808
for the peace message,
1115
00:46:14,875 --> 00:46:16,510
and as well
as other aspects in terms
1116
00:46:16,577 --> 00:46:21,114
of, like, valuing humility and
discipleship and nonviolence,
1117
00:46:21,181 --> 00:46:23,050
nonresistance
in all capacities.
1118
00:46:23,116 --> 00:46:24,618
That all kind of spoke to me.
1119
00:46:24,685 --> 00:46:26,220
And I felt that
the sort of logic
1120
00:46:26,286 --> 00:46:29,189
of believer's baptism
sort of spoke to me.
1121
00:46:29,256 --> 00:46:30,424
I was in upstate New York
1122
00:46:30,490 --> 00:46:32,392
in the Finger Lakes region
going to college,
1123
00:46:32,459 --> 00:46:35,329
and there was
no Mennonite church close by,
1124
00:46:35,395 --> 00:46:36,730
but there was
an Amish community.
1125
00:46:36,797 --> 00:46:39,266
And 41 years ago this year,
1126
00:46:40,033 --> 00:46:43,036
I just went up,
and there was a family
1127
00:46:43,103 --> 00:46:45,305
that had a bakery
along the side of the road.
1128
00:46:45,372 --> 00:46:47,774
And I just drove in
and sort of,
1129
00:46:47,841 --> 00:46:49,076
you know, chatted with--
1130
00:46:49,142 --> 00:46:51,612
There was a mom and a daughter
working in the bakery.
1131
00:46:51,678 --> 00:46:53,013
And we were chatting
and she said,
1132
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:54,414
"You ought to talk
to my husband.
1133
00:46:54,481 --> 00:46:55,816
I think he'd like to meet you."
1134
00:46:55,883 --> 00:46:58,519
And so, then we were chatting
with him and talking.
1135
00:46:58,585 --> 00:46:59,887
I knew German at that point,
1136
00:46:59,953 --> 00:47:01,488
but I didn't know
Pennsylvania Dutch.
1137
00:47:01,555 --> 00:47:03,557
And so, he said,
"So, you know German?"
1138
00:47:03,624 --> 00:47:05,959
He said, "Well, we use German
in church," that kind of thing.
1139
00:47:06,026 --> 00:47:07,961
And I said, "Do you ever
allow visitors in church?"
1140
00:47:08,028 --> 00:47:10,364
And he goes, "You're the first
guy that's ever asked us here."
1141
00:47:10,430 --> 00:47:11,565
It was a very small community.
1142
00:47:11,632 --> 00:47:12,866
Said, "Sure."
1143
00:47:12,933 --> 00:47:14,668
He said, "You're welcome
to come to worship services."
1144
00:47:14,735 --> 00:47:16,470
He said, "They're gonna be
actually in our home
1145
00:47:16,537 --> 00:47:17,838
in 10 days."
1146
00:47:17,905 --> 00:47:22,142
And so, I did in that February
of 1985 and never stopped.
1147
00:47:22,209 --> 00:47:23,310
[chuckles]
1148
00:47:23,377 --> 00:47:24,478
- Well, knowing German,
1149
00:47:24,545 --> 00:47:26,980
how much did that help
with Pennsylvania Dutch?
1150
00:47:27,047 --> 00:47:31,518
- Not a lot, except I was
studying Germanic linguistics
1151
00:47:31,585 --> 00:47:33,353
with an emphasis
on dialectology,
1152
00:47:33,420 --> 00:47:35,622
and I had lived
in Munich, Germany, for a year,
1153
00:47:35,689 --> 00:47:37,291
so southern Germany,
1154
00:47:37,357 --> 00:47:41,028
and my ears were kind of primed
to listen
1155
00:47:41,695 --> 00:47:44,464
for certain linguistic features
in Pennsylvania Dutch.
1156
00:47:44,531 --> 00:47:48,869
So, I was doing a little bit of
kind of meta linguistic analysis
1157
00:47:48,936 --> 00:47:50,404
as I was being immersed.
1158
00:47:50,470 --> 00:47:54,341
There were stretches of speech
that I understood just fine.
1159
00:47:54,408 --> 00:47:55,809
And then
there were other things
1160
00:47:55,876 --> 00:47:58,345
where just, like, I had no idea
what people were talking about.
1161
00:47:58,412 --> 00:48:00,547
And a lot of that
had to do with cultural content
1162
00:48:00,614 --> 00:48:02,149
that I was not familiar with.
- Sure.
1163
00:48:02,216 --> 00:48:04,151
- But your average worship
service is--
1164
00:48:04,218 --> 00:48:07,487
Well, in a church service,
aside from singing and praying,
1165
00:48:07,554 --> 00:48:09,223
it's one person talking.
1166
00:48:09,289 --> 00:48:10,824
And this is
two and a half hours.
1167
00:48:10,891 --> 00:48:12,159
These are long services.
1168
00:48:12,226 --> 00:48:13,694
And you've typically got
two sermons:
1169
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:15,195
a short sermon for a half hour
1170
00:48:15,262 --> 00:48:17,798
and a long sermon that's, like,
45 minutes to an hour.
1171
00:48:17,865 --> 00:48:20,000
And those are delivered
in Pennsylvania Dutch.
1172
00:48:20,067 --> 00:48:22,569
And so, if you know
what the basic topic is,
1173
00:48:22,636 --> 00:48:24,571
like the Scriptures...
- Well, I suppose, yeah, right.
1174
00:48:24,638 --> 00:48:26,573
- ...then it's not hard
to sort of follow along.
1175
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,243
So, it's basically
kind of like Duolingo, right?
1176
00:48:29,309 --> 00:48:30,744
[both laugh]
- Uh-huh, uh-huh.
1177
00:48:30,811 --> 00:48:34,381
- In a sort of 16th-century
package, you know,
1178
00:48:34,448 --> 00:48:37,351
but in the 20th or 21st century.
1179
00:48:38,051 --> 00:48:40,020
- Does this happen very often
that you have somebody
1180
00:48:40,087 --> 00:48:45,292
who is not raised as Amish joins
the church and sticks with it?
1181
00:48:45,359 --> 00:48:47,294
- No, it's very rare.
1182
00:48:47,361 --> 00:48:50,497
You know, probably a hundred
years ago was more common
1183
00:48:50,564 --> 00:48:52,833
when the differences
in lifestyle between Amish
1184
00:48:52,900 --> 00:48:54,668
and non-Amish were not as great.
1185
00:48:54,735 --> 00:48:56,670
A lot of it
is less the sort of language,
1186
00:48:56,737 --> 00:48:58,272
although the language is
a part of it.
1187
00:48:58,338 --> 00:49:00,174
The language is a barrier,
definitely.
1188
00:49:00,240 --> 00:49:02,576
But it's really just sort of,
as the Amish people would say,
1189
00:49:02,643 --> 00:49:04,845
"It's a lot easier
for us to go in your direction,
1190
00:49:04,912 --> 00:49:07,915
to gain material things,
than to give it up."
1191
00:49:07,981 --> 00:49:10,017
- Than to shrink back down.
- Exactly.
1192
00:49:10,083 --> 00:49:11,685
But the language is
really important too.
1193
00:49:11,752 --> 00:49:14,087
But there are probably,
there's an estimate
1194
00:49:14,154 --> 00:49:17,658
of, like, maybe 200 people
in the Amish today
1195
00:49:17,724 --> 00:49:20,093
who are not born
to Amish parents.
1196
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:23,564
And I know some
that have done quite well,
1197
00:49:23,630 --> 00:49:25,132
including linguistically.
1198
00:49:25,199 --> 00:49:26,733
And it's
sort of like migrants.
1199
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,636
You move to another country
and you're immersed,
1200
00:49:29,703 --> 00:49:31,371
and there's motivation there.
1201
00:49:31,438 --> 00:49:35,576
You don't have to be, you know,
a linguistic, you know...
1202
00:49:35,642 --> 00:49:37,644
- That's true, it's all about
the immersion, isn't it?
1203
00:49:37,711 --> 00:49:41,048
- Exactly.
- Immersion through these,
1204
00:49:41,114 --> 00:49:43,150
like, an hour and a half or so
of sermon.
1205
00:49:43,217 --> 00:49:44,318
- Right.
1206
00:49:44,384 --> 00:49:46,053
- And then, presumably,
conversation after that
1207
00:49:46,119 --> 00:49:48,355
where you could actually be
kind of guided
1208
00:49:48,422 --> 00:49:50,557
into the meaning of it.
1209
00:49:50,891 --> 00:49:52,960
But now, on the other hand,
1210
00:49:53,026 --> 00:49:56,129
having immersed yourself
for all these, what,
1211
00:49:56,196 --> 00:49:59,867
41 years or so
in Pennsylvania Dutch,
1212
00:49:59,933 --> 00:50:02,269
then is it ever necessary
1213
00:50:02,870 --> 00:50:08,175
for you to actually translate
for Pennsylvania Dutch speakers
1214
00:50:08,242 --> 00:50:11,678
into English or vice versa
in situations?
1215
00:50:11,745 --> 00:50:13,413
- I do serve
as a medical interpreter
1216
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:15,415
and a court interpreter
1217
00:50:15,482 --> 00:50:17,317
in Wisconsin
and in many other states.
1218
00:50:17,384 --> 00:50:19,520
I'm the only official
medical interpreter
1219
00:50:19,586 --> 00:50:21,955
for Pennsylvania Dutch
west of Ohio.
1220
00:50:22,022 --> 00:50:23,957
And so, here in Madison,
1221
00:50:24,024 --> 00:50:27,928
I volunteer for interpreter
services through UW Health.
1222
00:50:27,995 --> 00:50:29,263
So, I spend, when--
1223
00:50:29,329 --> 00:50:32,266
I'm essentially
on call for families
1224
00:50:32,332 --> 00:50:36,770
that would like my services
at the University Hospital
1225
00:50:36,837 --> 00:50:39,239
and American Family
Children's Hospital.
1226
00:50:39,306 --> 00:50:41,308
It's not that they don't know
English, right?
1227
00:50:41,375 --> 00:50:43,510
So, every Amish person that,
you know,
1228
00:50:43,577 --> 00:50:44,878
like, starts school, right,
1229
00:50:44,945 --> 00:50:47,881
so at the age of six
is exposed to English.
1230
00:50:47,948 --> 00:50:52,719
But the language of health care,
the language of the legal system
1231
00:50:52,786 --> 00:50:56,089
in a very emotionally charged,
stressful setting,
1232
00:50:56,156 --> 00:50:59,493
like a courtroom
or a hospital room,
1233
00:51:00,527 --> 00:51:04,631
these are situations where
your "heart language,"
1234
00:51:04,698 --> 00:51:07,434
your first language
is preferred.
1235
00:51:07,501 --> 00:51:09,536
So, yes,
I serve as an interpreter.
1236
00:51:09,603 --> 00:51:11,839
I'm doing sort of
linguistic mediation,
1237
00:51:11,905 --> 00:51:14,408
but I really do a lot
of things,
1238
00:51:14,474 --> 00:51:17,110
like my work overlaps
with what social workers do
1239
00:51:17,177 --> 00:51:18,412
and actually pastoral care,
1240
00:51:18,478 --> 00:51:20,280
'cause we're talking about
a lot of spiritual things.
1241
00:51:20,347 --> 00:51:21,448
I'm a Mennonite myself.
1242
00:51:21,515 --> 00:51:24,117
I was, you know,
sort of continuing the story,
1243
00:51:24,184 --> 00:51:26,720
I was baptized
in a Mennonite church.
1244
00:51:26,787 --> 00:51:29,623
And so, you know, our basic
doctrines are all the same.
1245
00:51:29,690 --> 00:51:32,125
I'm a member here
of Madison Mennonite Church.
1246
00:51:32,192 --> 00:51:33,994
And so, you know,
1247
00:51:34,061 --> 00:51:37,631
a lot of questions about
sort of health and spirituality
1248
00:51:37,698 --> 00:51:39,867
and just sort of, like,
life and spirituality
1249
00:51:39,933 --> 00:51:41,735
that you have
at a patient's bedside,
1250
00:51:41,802 --> 00:51:43,070
those are conversations
1251
00:51:43,136 --> 00:51:46,206
that they find difficult to have
with, say, the providers.
1252
00:51:46,273 --> 00:51:47,474
- Norman: Too personal.
1253
00:51:47,541 --> 00:51:50,677
- It's very personal,
it's very emotional.
1254
00:51:50,744 --> 00:51:53,213
- You do all this while in--
1255
00:51:53,547 --> 00:51:58,285
I'll call it, what, contemporary
American clothing?
1256
00:51:58,352 --> 00:52:02,589
Or you actually put on
the Mennonite panoply?
1257
00:52:04,258 --> 00:52:06,226
- I dress modestly, typically,
1258
00:52:06,293 --> 00:52:09,963
so I would typically wear
sort of darker clothes,
1259
00:52:10,030 --> 00:52:11,698
you know,
long-sleeve button-down shirts,
1260
00:52:11,765 --> 00:52:13,433
maybe short-sleeve button-down
shirts, whatever,
1261
00:52:13,500 --> 00:52:15,402
but not polo shirts.
1262
00:52:16,003 --> 00:52:17,538
I do have an Amish suit,
actually.
1263
00:52:17,604 --> 00:52:19,406
I was married
in that Amish suit.
1264
00:52:19,473 --> 00:52:21,375
And so, when I attend
weddings or funerals
1265
00:52:21,441 --> 00:52:24,044
or special-- or church services,
actually.
1266
00:52:24,111 --> 00:52:26,713
And I have three different hats.
[both laugh]
1267
00:52:26,780 --> 00:52:29,016
- Summer and winter and other?
1268
00:52:29,082 --> 00:52:30,851
- Actually, they're
for different affiliations.
1269
00:52:30,918 --> 00:52:32,753
So, the broader the brim,
1270
00:52:32,819 --> 00:52:34,655
the more conservative
the affiliation.
1271
00:52:34,721 --> 00:52:36,390
So, I have a fairly
broad-brimmed hat
1272
00:52:36,456 --> 00:52:37,558
that was given to me
1273
00:52:37,624 --> 00:52:39,293
by a close friend
from Lancaster, Pennsylvania.
1274
00:52:39,359 --> 00:52:41,862
He said, "Mark, you need this
hat." [laughs]
1275
00:52:41,929 --> 00:52:43,363
And then, I have a shorter--
1276
00:52:43,430 --> 00:52:45,532
a couple of
shorter-brimmed hats also.
1277
00:52:45,599 --> 00:52:47,768
- You travel around much
from Amish community
1278
00:52:47,835 --> 00:52:48,936
to Amish community?
1279
00:52:49,002 --> 00:52:50,337
- Mark: Quite a bit.
- Interstate?
1280
00:52:50,404 --> 00:52:51,505
- Yep, quite a bit.
1281
00:52:51,572 --> 00:52:53,941
Usually, you know, I'm sort of--
1282
00:52:54,007 --> 00:52:56,343
my day job is as a professor,
and so I don't have--
1283
00:52:56,410 --> 00:52:58,412
During the academic year,
there's sort of less free time,
1284
00:52:58,478 --> 00:52:59,847
but especially
in the summertime
1285
00:52:59,913 --> 00:53:01,281
I do a fair amount of travel.
1286
00:53:01,348 --> 00:53:03,517
But I'm on the road
actually quite a bit
1287
00:53:03,584 --> 00:53:06,620
as my schedule permits,
you know...
1288
00:53:06,687 --> 00:53:08,889
- Not with
horse-drawn conveyance.
1289
00:53:08,956 --> 00:53:12,226
- No, no, I mean, I learned
how to drive it myself.
1290
00:53:12,292 --> 00:53:14,228
- How to drive a team?
- Driving is okay.
1291
00:53:14,294 --> 00:53:16,230
It's actually sort of getting
the tack onto the horse
1292
00:53:16,296 --> 00:53:18,432
and making sure that all the
straps and buckles are there.
1293
00:53:18,498 --> 00:53:20,634
- Norman: Lots of details.
- It's a lot of details.
1294
00:53:20,701 --> 00:53:22,636
And you wanna make sure
that you get that right,
1295
00:53:22,703 --> 00:53:24,571
or else the buggy is--
1296
00:53:24,638 --> 00:53:26,440
The horse may get away
from the buggy.
1297
00:53:26,507 --> 00:53:30,310
- Well, it must have been
a fascinating odyssey
1298
00:53:30,377 --> 00:53:33,046
for you to go into that culture
1299
00:53:33,113 --> 00:53:35,649
and then go back and forth
between the two.
1300
00:53:35,716 --> 00:53:37,417
- But, you know, it just,
1301
00:53:37,484 --> 00:53:39,486
it's, it seems
very natural to me.
1302
00:53:39,553 --> 00:53:42,356
It's like, I feel like
I'm the same Mark Louden
1303
00:53:42,422 --> 00:53:44,791
you know,
whether I'm, you know,
1304
00:53:44,858 --> 00:53:47,427
seated in Amish-- singing
in an Amish worship service
1305
00:53:47,494 --> 00:53:51,498
or standing in a classroom
or in my backyard.
1306
00:53:51,565 --> 00:53:53,700
Still the same Mark Louden.
[laughs]
1307
00:53:53,767 --> 00:53:55,669
- Well, Mark Louden,
I certainly appreciate
1308
00:53:55,736 --> 00:53:58,605
you giving us this look
into the Amish life.
1309
00:53:58,672 --> 00:53:59,773
Just a glimpse, really,
1310
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:01,642
but it's fascinating one
at that.
1311
00:54:01,708 --> 00:54:04,444
- Thank you very much
for the invitation, Norman.
1312
00:54:04,511 --> 00:54:05,712
- I'm Norman Gilliland.
1313
00:54:05,779 --> 00:54:07,514
I hope you can join me
next time around
1314
00:54:07,581 --> 00:54:10,584
for University Place Presents.
1315
00:54:11,718 --> 00:54:13,387
[gentle music]