1
00:00:01,368 --> 00:00:03,036
[gentle music]
2
00:00:09,409 --> 00:00:11,411
- Norman Gilliland: Welcome
to University Place Presents.
3
00:00:11,478 --> 00:00:12,913
I'm Norman Gilliland.
4
00:00:12,980 --> 00:00:15,048
The half dozen suites
for unaccompanied cello
5
00:00:15,115 --> 00:00:17,551
by Johann Sebastian Bach
are a mystery.
6
00:00:17,618 --> 00:00:20,954
We don't have Bach's
original manuscripts of them.
7
00:00:21,021 --> 00:00:22,623
We don't know why he wrote them,
8
00:00:22,689 --> 00:00:26,260
and we can only guess at
how he wanted them played.
9
00:00:26,326 --> 00:00:28,662
They were practically unknown
for 150 years
10
00:00:28,729 --> 00:00:31,765
until one prominent cellist
made them famous,
11
00:00:31,832 --> 00:00:34,801
since which time
many cellists have performed
12
00:00:34,868 --> 00:00:36,436
and recorded them.
13
00:00:36,503 --> 00:00:38,839
We'll take some
of the mystery out
14
00:00:38,906 --> 00:00:42,509
surrounding the suites
with my two guests
15
00:00:42,576 --> 00:00:44,545
from the UW-Madison
School of Music.
16
00:00:44,611 --> 00:00:48,248
They're Edward Klorman,
professor of music theory
17
00:00:48,315 --> 00:00:50,417
and author of
Bach: The Cello Suites,
18
00:00:50,484 --> 00:00:53,754
and Matthew Zalkind,
professor of cello.
19
00:00:53,820 --> 00:00:55,889
Welcome
to University Place Presents.
20
00:00:55,956 --> 00:00:57,291
- Edward Klorman:
Thanks for having us.
21
00:00:57,357 --> 00:00:58,692
- Matthew Zalkind:
Thanks for having us.
22
00:00:58,759 --> 00:00:59,893
- Well,
everybody loves a mystery,
23
00:00:59,960 --> 00:01:03,497
and Bach is providing us
plenty of mysteries here
24
00:01:03,564 --> 00:01:07,634
with these six suites
for unaccompanied cello.
25
00:01:07,701 --> 00:01:11,171
And so, let's maybe have
some guesses
26
00:01:11,872 --> 00:01:14,474
and get some facts
along the way.
27
00:01:14,541 --> 00:01:19,446
And why do you think that
Bach wrote these six suites?
28
00:01:20,781 --> 00:01:22,516
- That's one of the toughest
questions to answer.
29
00:01:22,583 --> 00:01:24,451
You know, Bach began
his career mostly known
30
00:01:24,518 --> 00:01:26,320
as an organist
and keyboard player,
31
00:01:26,386 --> 00:01:27,821
and he was mostly
composing music
32
00:01:27,888 --> 00:01:29,289
for those sorts of instruments.
33
00:01:29,356 --> 00:01:30,457
At a certain point,
34
00:01:30,524 --> 00:01:32,459
he became interested
in developing his skills
35
00:01:32,526 --> 00:01:33,727
as a violinist,
36
00:01:33,794 --> 00:01:36,063
and that included using
the violin as an instrument
37
00:01:36,129 --> 00:01:38,632
that could sort of reach
beyond its capacity
38
00:01:38,699 --> 00:01:40,300
to write contrapuntal music.
39
00:01:40,367 --> 00:01:41,902
That means music
with lots of chords,
40
00:01:41,969 --> 00:01:45,939
where one instrument has melody
and bass line and other voices,
41
00:01:46,006 --> 00:01:47,140
and then, at a certain point,
42
00:01:47,207 --> 00:01:49,543
he aspired to try
to do the same thing with cello.
43
00:01:49,610 --> 00:01:52,312
We don't know if he played
the cello during his lifetime.
44
00:01:52,379 --> 00:01:53,981
In German-speaking lands,
45
00:01:54,047 --> 00:01:56,316
the cello was mostly used
as an accompanying instrument
46
00:01:56,383 --> 00:01:57,985
for playing bass lines.
47
00:01:58,051 --> 00:02:00,988
So, what is it exactly
that inspired Bach to try
48
00:02:01,054 --> 00:02:02,155
to develop the cello
49
00:02:02,222 --> 00:02:05,392
sort of beyond what it
naturally might seem
50
00:02:05,459 --> 00:02:06,560
like it's able to do?
51
00:02:06,627 --> 00:02:07,728
So, in these pieces,
52
00:02:07,794 --> 00:02:09,229
often you might have
the impression
53
00:02:09,296 --> 00:02:10,931
that you're hearing
more than one instrument.
54
00:02:10,998 --> 00:02:14,268
He draws a lot of resonance,
a lot of technique
55
00:02:14,334 --> 00:02:16,270
out of what you're
able to do with this instrument.
56
00:02:16,336 --> 00:02:18,472
And then, over the course
of these six suites,
57
00:02:18,539 --> 00:02:20,474
you hear the instrument
in all different kinds of ways,
58
00:02:20,541 --> 00:02:23,076
in different styles,
in major and minor,
59
00:02:23,143 --> 00:02:25,379
playing melodies,
playing chords.
60
00:02:25,445 --> 00:02:27,347
One of the pieces
even has a fugue.
61
00:02:27,414 --> 00:02:29,316
So, that's a piece
where it really sounds
62
00:02:29,383 --> 00:02:31,051
like there's two or three
different instruments
63
00:02:31,118 --> 00:02:33,320
all coming
out of one player and one cello.
64
00:02:33,387 --> 00:02:37,057
- Is there some kind of
overarching idea
65
00:02:39,426 --> 00:02:41,695
that connects all six
of these suites?
66
00:02:41,762 --> 00:02:43,764
Each suite has six movements.
67
00:02:43,830 --> 00:02:44,965
- Edward: Yeah, very typically
68
00:02:45,032 --> 00:02:46,567
a suite would have five
or six movements.
69
00:02:46,633 --> 00:02:48,302
So, all of them
have exactly six movements.
70
00:02:48,368 --> 00:02:50,470
They're all different
stylized versions
71
00:02:50,537 --> 00:02:51,905
of different dance types,
72
00:02:51,972 --> 00:02:53,574
and very common
in Bach's lifetime
73
00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:55,642
to compose pieces
in groups of six.
74
00:02:55,709 --> 00:02:58,212
So, the idea is, over the course
of these six pieces,
75
00:02:58,278 --> 00:03:00,214
you show off sort of
encyclopedically what
76
00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,917
you're able to do in a suite
with this particular instrument.
77
00:03:03,984 --> 00:03:05,586
But one thing that's unusual,
78
00:03:05,652 --> 00:03:07,754
you know, there are these six
pieces for unaccompanied violin
79
00:03:07,821 --> 00:03:09,256
that he wrote around
the same time.
80
00:03:09,323 --> 00:03:12,092
They're all about
the same level of complexity.
81
00:03:12,159 --> 00:03:14,628
But the cello,
as you go across the six suites,
82
00:03:14,695 --> 00:03:18,198
they get more complex
in terms of the technique
83
00:03:18,265 --> 00:03:19,433
it takes to play them.
84
00:03:19,499 --> 00:03:20,767
Also more complex,
85
00:03:20,834 --> 00:03:23,737
maybe emotionally
or in terms of the expression.
86
00:03:23,804 --> 00:03:25,405
I don't know
if this was Bach's idea,
87
00:03:25,472 --> 00:03:27,407
but there are some people
who've responded to it
88
00:03:27,474 --> 00:03:29,476
as being almost like
a human life,
89
00:03:29,543 --> 00:03:32,646
beginning with innocence
and something sort of natural
90
00:03:32,713 --> 00:03:35,816
and aspiring toward things
that are more fraught.
91
00:03:35,883 --> 00:03:37,518
There are even folks
who have interpreted
92
00:03:37,584 --> 00:03:40,053
as having a kind of
a Christian overlay,
93
00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,923
where maybe Suite No. 5,
which is the darkest suite,
94
00:03:42,990 --> 00:03:44,825
having something
to do with the crucifixion.
95
00:03:44,892 --> 00:03:45,993
And then, Suite No. 6,
96
00:03:46,059 --> 00:03:48,462
which is the brilliant climax
of the suites
97
00:03:48,529 --> 00:03:50,497
as having something
to do with the resurrection.
98
00:03:50,564 --> 00:03:53,634
- Well, I've heard that said
of his Well-Tempered Clavier
99
00:03:53,700 --> 00:03:56,470
for keyboard,
where you're getting--
100
00:03:56,537 --> 00:03:59,339
You start out
in the C major key
101
00:03:59,406 --> 00:04:01,708
where you're comfortable.
- Yeah.
102
00:04:01,775 --> 00:04:05,112
- All white notes
on the contemporary piano,
103
00:04:05,179 --> 00:04:06,647
and you get farther
and farther away
104
00:04:06,713 --> 00:04:10,384
into these
relatively exotic minor keys,
105
00:04:10,450 --> 00:04:13,320
implying that, if we're talking
about a religious arc,
106
00:04:13,387 --> 00:04:15,822
you are farther
and farther away from God
107
00:04:15,889 --> 00:04:17,024
by the time you get there.
108
00:04:17,090 --> 00:04:19,660
And then, you have
this resolution at the end.
109
00:04:19,726 --> 00:04:21,428
- Yeah, certainly Suite No. 1,
110
00:04:21,495 --> 00:04:23,630
we'll hear a little later,
the prelude to that first suite,
111
00:04:23,697 --> 00:04:25,699
which is the most famous
movement from the cello suites,
112
00:04:25,766 --> 00:04:28,502
you hear it emphasizes all
the open strings.
113
00:04:28,569 --> 00:04:31,438
This is the cello if you play
a string with no fingers down.
114
00:04:31,505 --> 00:04:33,440
So, these are the easiest notes
to play.
115
00:04:33,507 --> 00:04:34,842
They're the notes
that ring the most.
116
00:04:34,908 --> 00:04:36,476
So, it's almost
like introducing this instrument
117
00:04:36,543 --> 00:04:38,512
in its most natural idiom.
118
00:04:38,579 --> 00:04:41,415
- What is the purpose
of a prelude?
119
00:04:41,481 --> 00:04:44,351
I've heard it said
that it's, in a way, to serve
120
00:04:44,418 --> 00:04:45,686
kind of like an overture,
121
00:04:45,752 --> 00:04:47,354
setting you up
for what's to come.
122
00:04:47,421 --> 00:04:50,591
Is that true of Bach's
preludes in these six suites?
123
00:04:50,657 --> 00:04:53,293
- Yeah, a prelude often
would be improvised.
124
00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:55,095
So, if a composer wrote one,
it's almost
125
00:04:55,162 --> 00:04:58,599
like they've composed something
free enough in the manner
126
00:04:58,665 --> 00:05:00,834
as if it might sound
like you were improvising.
127
00:05:00,901 --> 00:05:02,603
It introduces the key
that the movements
128
00:05:02,669 --> 00:05:04,037
that follow will be in.
129
00:05:04,104 --> 00:05:08,041
Often, they introduce certain
chords or certain musical ideas
130
00:05:08,108 --> 00:05:10,043
that you're going to hear
come back over the course
131
00:05:10,110 --> 00:05:11,211
of the movements.
132
00:05:11,278 --> 00:05:12,412
There were musicians
in Bach's lifetime
133
00:05:12,479 --> 00:05:14,515
who said that the different
movements of a suite
134
00:05:14,581 --> 00:05:16,016
should be like a family.
135
00:05:16,083 --> 00:05:17,818
So, not just
that they're in the same key,
136
00:05:17,885 --> 00:05:19,586
but they have other
little hallmarks
137
00:05:19,653 --> 00:05:20,754
that make them fit together.
138
00:05:20,821 --> 00:05:22,189
So, the prelude would be
responsible
139
00:05:22,256 --> 00:05:24,791
for introducing some of those.
140
00:05:24,858 --> 00:05:28,795
- And, so, Matt,
what do you hear in the prelude?
141
00:05:28,862 --> 00:05:30,464
- Matthew: Yeah,
it's really interesting.
142
00:05:30,531 --> 00:05:33,600
I do realize now,
thinking as you're talking,
143
00:05:33,667 --> 00:05:36,003
that every prelude is
so different,
144
00:05:36,069 --> 00:05:38,172
so unbelievably different
from each other.
145
00:05:38,238 --> 00:05:40,207
When you think about
all the courantes,
146
00:05:40,274 --> 00:05:42,042
for example, there's
a courante in every suite.
147
00:05:42,109 --> 00:05:43,243
There's an allemande
in every suite.
148
00:05:43,310 --> 00:05:45,279
We're talking
about dance movements.
149
00:05:45,345 --> 00:05:47,848
You can sort of feel,
for the most part,
150
00:05:47,915 --> 00:05:49,850
I guess, with some exceptions,
151
00:05:49,917 --> 00:05:53,187
you feel the connection with
all the courantes, for example.
152
00:05:53,253 --> 00:05:57,124
But that each prelude
is so unique and so different,
153
00:05:57,191 --> 00:06:00,327
and it really does set the stage
for the rest of the suite
154
00:06:00,394 --> 00:06:01,995
in a really amazing way.
155
00:06:02,062 --> 00:06:03,430
And you mentioned
the open strings,
156
00:06:03,497 --> 00:06:07,000
and I could demonstrate now just
what the open strings sound like
157
00:06:07,067 --> 00:06:08,735
on the cello.
158
00:06:09,703 --> 00:06:11,371
[bows strings]
159
00:06:14,541 --> 00:06:17,444
I could tune
while we were at it.
160
00:06:18,612 --> 00:06:20,781
In the first suite prelude,
which I'll play in a second,
161
00:06:20,848 --> 00:06:24,218
you'll hear a lot of those
sounds ringing throughout,
162
00:06:24,284 --> 00:06:25,519
and Bach really knew
163
00:06:25,586 --> 00:06:28,388
how to sort of exploit
the resonance of the instrument,
164
00:06:28,455 --> 00:06:29,990
which you hear from--
- And which suite
165
00:06:30,057 --> 00:06:31,458
does this come from,
this prelude?
166
00:06:31,525 --> 00:06:32,860
- The first suite.
167
00:06:32,926 --> 00:06:34,328
And you have some--
168
00:06:34,394 --> 00:06:36,630
I love what you say
about the first suite prelude.
169
00:06:36,697 --> 00:06:38,565
- Oh, I've learned that,
170
00:06:38,632 --> 00:06:40,067
for instance,
on the website Reddit,
171
00:06:40,133 --> 00:06:42,169
people write about "that
cello song," [all chuckle]
172
00:06:42,236 --> 00:06:44,371
and that's what they mean.
- You hear it a lot.
173
00:06:44,438 --> 00:06:46,540
- This is a prelude that is--
it's really ubiquitous.
174
00:06:46,607 --> 00:06:48,342
It's been used in many films.
175
00:06:48,408 --> 00:06:50,410
So, for instance,
the film Master and Commander,
176
00:06:50,477 --> 00:06:52,079
where it represents the ocean.
177
00:06:52,145 --> 00:06:56,583
It's been used in commercials
ranging from pizza to diamonds
178
00:06:56,650 --> 00:06:57,918
to La-Z-Boy furniture.
179
00:06:57,985 --> 00:07:00,287
- And yet, Bach didn't get
a nickel of royalties.
180
00:07:00,354 --> 00:07:02,689
[all laugh]
- That's right.
181
00:07:02,756 --> 00:07:06,894
Even in recent series like on
Netflix, the series Wednesday,
182
00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:08,495
that's the new
Addams Family reboot,
183
00:07:08,562 --> 00:07:10,163
in the very first episode,
184
00:07:10,230 --> 00:07:12,633
there's a long montage where
Wednesday is playing the cello,
185
00:07:12,699 --> 00:07:15,269
and what she's playing is a pop
song arranged for solo cello.
186
00:07:15,335 --> 00:07:19,273
But when you zoom in and Thing
is turning the page for her,
187
00:07:19,339 --> 00:07:20,474
that's the music
from the prelude
188
00:07:20,541 --> 00:07:21,642
to the first cello suite.
189
00:07:21,708 --> 00:07:23,477
- Well, imagine what you will,
190
00:07:23,544 --> 00:07:28,215
as we hear this prelude from
the Suite No. 1 by Bach.
191
00:07:29,650 --> 00:07:31,652
[bright cello music]
192
00:08:29,710 --> 00:08:31,712
[bright cello music]
193
00:09:29,770 --> 00:09:31,772
[bright cello music]
194
00:09:58,632 --> 00:10:00,634
- A lovely sound,
and a lovely beginning.
195
00:10:00,701 --> 00:10:02,569
But you know what
I'm reminded of,
196
00:10:02,636 --> 00:10:07,341
talking about beginnings,
this is probably the most,
197
00:10:07,407 --> 00:10:10,844
let's say, popular, most
heard movement of all of the,
198
00:10:10,911 --> 00:10:14,481
what is it,
36 movements in these suites.
199
00:10:14,548 --> 00:10:17,751
Same thing could be said
of the Prelude No. 1 in C
200
00:10:17,818 --> 00:10:19,419
from
The Well-Tempered Clavier.
201
00:10:19,486 --> 00:10:20,587
Why?
202
00:10:20,654 --> 00:10:23,323
Why are these
so wildly popular?
203
00:10:23,390 --> 00:10:24,925
- Well, they're both
the very first thing
204
00:10:24,992 --> 00:10:26,093
in both of those sets.
205
00:10:26,159 --> 00:10:28,095
So, if
The Well-Tempered Clavier
206
00:10:28,161 --> 00:10:31,565
is a journey through all
the different keys for keyboard,
207
00:10:31,632 --> 00:10:33,400
this is something like this
for cello.
208
00:10:33,467 --> 00:10:34,568
They're similar.
209
00:10:34,635 --> 00:10:36,170
They're both what we call
a pattern prelude.
210
00:10:36,236 --> 00:10:39,806
So, often, if a composer was
composing something like this,
211
00:10:39,873 --> 00:10:41,708
they'd begin
with a chord progression
212
00:10:41,775 --> 00:10:42,876
and then they decide, well,
213
00:10:42,943 --> 00:10:44,211
what's the figuration
going to be?
214
00:10:44,278 --> 00:10:45,846
And, in this case,
it's arpeggios.
215
00:10:45,913 --> 00:10:47,347
And so, with the cello,
216
00:10:47,414 --> 00:10:50,584
you hear on three different
strings, ? dee da dum ?
217
00:10:50,651 --> 00:10:52,786
So, it's a way of getting
the cello drawing a lot
218
00:10:52,853 --> 00:10:54,054
of sound out of it.
219
00:10:54,121 --> 00:10:56,056
You imagine someone
who might be used to the organ
220
00:10:56,123 --> 00:10:58,225
and all of its capacities
for how much sound,
221
00:10:58,292 --> 00:11:01,862
wanting to invite the cello
to be just as ringing as that.
222
00:11:01,929 --> 00:11:04,264
- Is it your favorite, Matt?
223
00:11:04,331 --> 00:11:05,966
- That is a tough question.
224
00:11:06,033 --> 00:11:07,134
That's a tough question.
225
00:11:07,201 --> 00:11:11,138
It's...
impossible to have a favorite.
226
00:11:11,205 --> 00:11:13,774
I think the favorite is what
you're playing in that moment
227
00:11:13,841 --> 00:11:16,643
because you realize,
when you play these works,
228
00:11:16,710 --> 00:11:18,812
that there's so much to discover
229
00:11:18,879 --> 00:11:22,983
and a different way
to treat a harmony or a phrase.
230
00:11:23,050 --> 00:11:24,585
And every time
you come back to it,
231
00:11:24,651 --> 00:11:27,754
you can't help but be
just astonished by all of it.
232
00:11:27,821 --> 00:11:30,290
So, I can't say
that I have a favorite.
233
00:11:30,357 --> 00:11:33,827
- Is relatively simple
compared to the other ones,
234
00:11:33,894 --> 00:11:35,162
from what you've been saying?
235
00:11:35,229 --> 00:11:37,564
- This prelude?
- Mm-hmm.
236
00:11:38,165 --> 00:11:40,601
- Yeah, you know,
that's an interesting question.
237
00:11:40,667 --> 00:11:42,669
Simple, you know,
because, in a way,
238
00:11:42,736 --> 00:11:44,738
when you look at the harmony
of the D major,
239
00:11:44,805 --> 00:11:46,573
the final prelude, which is,
240
00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:50,077
as Ed mentioned, maybe in a way
the most musically complex,
241
00:11:50,143 --> 00:11:52,412
you start looking
at the harmonic rhythm
242
00:11:52,479 --> 00:11:54,815
and the harmony,
and it's actually quite simple.
243
00:11:54,882 --> 00:11:57,951
- Mm-hmm.
- Yeah, so it's hard to say.
244
00:11:58,018 --> 00:12:03,991
I think they're all so touching
in various ways, you know, so.
245
00:12:04,057 --> 00:12:06,560
- Would you say
that one of the reasons
246
00:12:06,627 --> 00:12:10,264
Bach is so popular
still today is that he knew
247
00:12:10,330 --> 00:12:12,132
how to write a tune?
248
00:12:12,499 --> 00:12:14,168
- Hmm,
that's an interesting question.
249
00:12:14,234 --> 00:12:17,404
I mean, often, The New York
Times, a few years ago,
250
00:12:17,471 --> 00:12:20,207
they had this event where,
over the course of a few months,
251
00:12:20,274 --> 00:12:21,875
their readers were supposed
to debate who's the
252
00:12:21,942 --> 00:12:23,477
greatest composer of all time.
- Oh, boy.
253
00:12:23,544 --> 00:12:25,679
- And it's inevitable that
the answer they come up with,
254
00:12:25,746 --> 00:12:28,482
J.S. Bach, is because so much
of the music so many of us
255
00:12:28,549 --> 00:12:31,218
are familiar with who deal
with Western classical music
256
00:12:31,285 --> 00:12:33,520
has some relationship
to Bach's music.
257
00:12:33,587 --> 00:12:35,389
It's interesting to imagine
that there was a time
258
00:12:35,455 --> 00:12:37,658
that this music
was scarcely known,
259
00:12:37,724 --> 00:12:39,393
that, when this was composed,
260
00:12:39,459 --> 00:12:42,763
it probably wasn't played
very much for at least 100,
261
00:12:42,829 --> 00:12:44,831
maybe even 150 years.
262
00:12:45,165 --> 00:12:46,800
And when it first entered
the concert hall,
263
00:12:46,867 --> 00:12:49,169
folks weren't entirely sure
what to make of it.
264
00:12:49,236 --> 00:12:50,737
And now, it is so ubiquitous,
265
00:12:50,804 --> 00:12:53,774
there's over 300 recordings
of these pieces.
266
00:12:53,841 --> 00:12:56,710
At least two albums
have won the Grammy Award.
267
00:12:56,777 --> 00:13:00,013
It's a rare piece
that children can learn to play,
268
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,583
but you also might go
hear a musician at the level
269
00:13:02,649 --> 00:13:04,618
of Yo-Yo Ma go play.
270
00:13:04,685 --> 00:13:07,721
So, it has a lot to find in it
for musicians and listeners
271
00:13:07,788 --> 00:13:09,056
from different kinds
of backgrounds.
272
00:13:09,122 --> 00:13:10,958
- Felix Mendelssohn
sometimes gets the credit
273
00:13:11,024 --> 00:13:14,661
for creating the whole concept
of classical music,
274
00:13:14,728 --> 00:13:16,997
because before that
it was all contemporary music.
275
00:13:17,064 --> 00:13:19,166
- Edward: Right.
- But to actually go back,
276
00:13:19,233 --> 00:13:21,802
an exception might be
Handel's Messiah,
277
00:13:21,869 --> 00:13:27,341
but when Mendelssohn, at
the ripe old age of 20 in 1829,
278
00:13:27,407 --> 00:13:31,245
decides to pull out some Bach
and put it in a concert,
279
00:13:31,311 --> 00:13:34,314
and it's like, everybody is,
as you say, "What's this?"
280
00:13:34,381 --> 00:13:36,250
You know,
this old-fashioned music.
281
00:13:36,316 --> 00:13:40,187
But then, suddenly Bach
just seems to have taken off
282
00:13:40,254 --> 00:13:42,055
to a great extent.
283
00:13:42,122 --> 00:13:43,724
Before we go any further,
284
00:13:43,790 --> 00:13:46,360
though, Matt, what's
the pedigree of your instrument?
285
00:13:46,426 --> 00:13:51,031
- Oh, so this is by a British
maker named Thomas Kennedy.
286
00:13:51,098 --> 00:13:53,233
So, it's an 1801 cello.
287
00:13:54,468 --> 00:13:56,103
It's something
I've been fortunate to play
288
00:13:56,170 --> 00:13:59,706
for a little while, and it's one
that I love a lot.
289
00:13:59,773 --> 00:14:02,009
I love the rich,
low sound of this cello,
290
00:14:02,075 --> 00:14:05,679
which is what drew me to it
initially, so...
291
00:14:05,746 --> 00:14:07,648
- We've talked about
dance movements,
292
00:14:07,714 --> 00:14:11,852
and other than the preludes,
they're all,
293
00:14:11,919 --> 00:14:15,522
for all six suites,
dance movements of some kind.
294
00:14:15,589 --> 00:14:20,928
Did people actually dance
to these genres in Bach's time,
295
00:14:22,529 --> 00:14:24,131
or were they already
kind of fossilized?
296
00:14:24,198 --> 00:14:25,899
Except for the minuet,
of course.
297
00:14:25,966 --> 00:14:27,334
- Matthew: Such
a great question.
298
00:14:27,401 --> 00:14:29,403
- The short answer is
mostly no,
299
00:14:29,469 --> 00:14:32,005
but I need to give
a little background around that.
300
00:14:32,072 --> 00:14:34,408
So, you could think,
when I talk about a dance
301
00:14:34,474 --> 00:14:36,109
being like a stylized
dance movement,
302
00:14:36,176 --> 00:14:38,111
that would be like
if you listen to a symphony
303
00:14:38,178 --> 00:14:39,279
and there's a minuet movement.
304
00:14:39,346 --> 00:14:40,681
That's different from a minuet
305
00:14:40,747 --> 00:14:43,617
that would be danced to in a
ballroom or as part of a ballet.
306
00:14:43,684 --> 00:14:45,752
So, there were these genres.
307
00:14:45,819 --> 00:14:48,288
You'll hear titles
like allemande, courante,
308
00:14:48,355 --> 00:14:49,723
sarabande, and gigue.
309
00:14:49,790 --> 00:14:51,291
Those are the four main dances
310
00:14:51,358 --> 00:14:54,027
that every suite will have,
plus a prelude.
311
00:14:54,094 --> 00:14:56,330
So, that gets us to five
out of the six.
312
00:14:56,396 --> 00:14:58,298
But then, in the
second-to-last position,
313
00:14:58,365 --> 00:15:00,901
so between the sarabande
and the gigue,
314
00:15:00,968 --> 00:15:02,936
Bach used these
more modern dance types
315
00:15:03,003 --> 00:15:05,305
that were still popular
in his lifetime,
316
00:15:05,372 --> 00:15:08,575
such as the minuet, the bourrée,
or the gavotte.
317
00:15:08,642 --> 00:15:10,244
So, for a musician
in Bach's lifetime,
318
00:15:10,310 --> 00:15:11,645
they would know each
of these styles.
319
00:15:11,712 --> 00:15:13,981
They would have seen them
danced in ballet.
320
00:15:14,047 --> 00:15:15,315
Bach, when he was a teenager,
321
00:15:15,382 --> 00:15:18,719
he went to a choir school
that was next door to a school
322
00:15:18,785 --> 00:15:21,288
that was sort of
for aristocratic gentlemen,
323
00:15:21,355 --> 00:15:23,590
young aristocrats,
and those aristocrats,
324
00:15:23,657 --> 00:15:26,260
they aspired toward
French culture.
325
00:15:26,326 --> 00:15:27,928
They often spoke
the French language,
326
00:15:27,995 --> 00:15:29,763
even though their
native language was German.
327
00:15:29,830 --> 00:15:31,331
They would have learned
comportment
328
00:15:31,398 --> 00:15:32,933
from a French dance master
329
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,202
who probably had spent time
at Versailles.
330
00:15:35,269 --> 00:15:38,138
So, there was a real pedigree
to these French dances,
331
00:15:38,205 --> 00:15:40,140
and it was maybe something
like what,
332
00:15:40,207 --> 00:15:41,441
for a generation later,
333
00:15:41,508 --> 00:15:44,044
for composers like Haydn
or later Mozart,
334
00:15:44,111 --> 00:15:46,380
they write a sonata that has,
you know, four,
335
00:15:46,446 --> 00:15:49,416
three or four movements,
and that's a kind of a cycle.
336
00:15:49,483 --> 00:15:51,051
The Baroque suite was
the equivalent of that
337
00:15:51,118 --> 00:15:53,086
with these different
dance types.
338
00:15:53,153 --> 00:15:56,757
- Well, let's hear a couple
of dance movements then.
339
00:15:56,823 --> 00:15:58,192
- Matthew: Sure.
340
00:15:58,258 --> 00:16:00,727
- The courante, and we'll get
into this maybe after the fact,
341
00:16:00,794 --> 00:16:04,164
but the sarabande had a kind of
a scandalous history behind it,
342
00:16:04,231 --> 00:16:08,335
sort of the equivalent
of a tango back in, oh,
343
00:16:08,402 --> 00:16:10,537
as early as the 16th century,
and these--
344
00:16:10,604 --> 00:16:14,341
This is a courante and sarabande
from the Suite No. 3...
345
00:16:14,408 --> 00:16:15,509
- Right.
- ...by Bach.
346
00:16:15,576 --> 00:16:18,579
- And the courante
literally means what,
347
00:16:18,645 --> 00:16:19,746
as a dance?
348
00:16:19,813 --> 00:16:21,448
- Yeah, from the French
verb "courir,"
349
00:16:21,515 --> 00:16:23,717
which means "to run"
or "to flow."
350
00:16:23,784 --> 00:16:24,985
- Right, so, in this case,
351
00:16:25,052 --> 00:16:28,255
this movement, the courante
is a very fast dance,
352
00:16:28,322 --> 00:16:30,457
which I'll try not
to play too fast,
353
00:16:30,524 --> 00:16:32,793
but you'll hear
the wonderful energy
354
00:16:32,860 --> 00:16:34,461
that comes in all the courantes.
355
00:16:34,528 --> 00:16:39,867
And we'll talk about the
sarabande after, I guess, right.
356
00:16:40,601 --> 00:16:42,603
[lively cello music]
357
00:17:40,661 --> 00:17:42,663
[lively cello music]
358
00:18:23,103 --> 00:18:25,105
[gentle cello music]
359
00:19:23,163 --> 00:19:25,165
[gentle cello music]
360
00:20:23,223 --> 00:20:25,225
[gentle cello music]
361
00:21:04,064 --> 00:21:05,732
- Norman: After hearing
that sarabande,
362
00:21:05,799 --> 00:21:10,470
it's easy to see why people
would think this is Bach
363
00:21:11,705 --> 00:21:14,741
thinking about his relationship
with the cosmos,
364
00:21:14,808 --> 00:21:16,343
if you wanna look at it
that way.
365
00:21:16,410 --> 00:21:20,714
I mean, there's this kind
of wondering quality to it.
366
00:21:20,781 --> 00:21:22,049
- Mm-hmm.
- Yeah.
367
00:21:22,115 --> 00:21:23,550
These movements, the sarabandes,
368
00:21:23,617 --> 00:21:26,320
I think, at times,
can have the most introspection,
369
00:21:26,386 --> 00:21:29,089
wouldn't you say,
within the suites, you know?
370
00:21:29,156 --> 00:21:30,891
- Yeah, they're often played
a little bit slower.
371
00:21:30,958 --> 00:21:32,492
Well, you hear these two
back to back,
372
00:21:32,559 --> 00:21:34,494
and you really hear the
contrast, the kind of scampering
373
00:21:34,561 --> 00:21:37,331
and the kind of virtuoso quality
of the courante that you played,
374
00:21:37,397 --> 00:21:40,000
followed by the repose
and the timelessness
375
00:21:40,067 --> 00:21:41,802
and maybe introspection.
376
00:21:41,869 --> 00:21:42,970
- Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
377
00:21:43,036 --> 00:21:46,573
- We'll get into timelessness
again, I'm sure.
378
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:51,111
But how do we know
what kind of instrument exactly?
379
00:21:51,178 --> 00:21:53,780
We say the cello today,
we just say the cello.
380
00:21:53,847 --> 00:21:55,249
And back in the day, of course,
381
00:21:55,315 --> 00:21:58,952
even now, you still see
violoncello.
382
00:21:59,019 --> 00:22:01,655
But if you go back and look
at pictures, and I know, Ed,
383
00:22:01,722 --> 00:22:03,590
you have a wonderful book
about these suites
384
00:22:03,657 --> 00:22:06,426
with illustrations
of people holding the instrument
385
00:22:06,493 --> 00:22:09,496
various ways
and the instrument various sizes
386
00:22:09,563 --> 00:22:11,765
and even numbers of strings.
387
00:22:11,832 --> 00:22:13,100
- Edward: That's right.
388
00:22:13,166 --> 00:22:15,235
You know, nowadays when
we talk about a full-size cello,
389
00:22:15,302 --> 00:22:16,870
this is pretty much
what we're thinking about.
390
00:22:16,937 --> 00:22:18,705
We, it has four strings.
391
00:22:18,772 --> 00:22:20,307
You play it with an endpin
392
00:22:20,374 --> 00:22:23,043
connecting it to the floor,
usually.
393
00:22:23,110 --> 00:22:24,878
In Bach's lifetime, there were
many different kinds
394
00:22:24,945 --> 00:22:26,413
of instruments,
all called cello,
395
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,815
some larger, some smaller.
396
00:22:28,882 --> 00:22:31,218
Rarely played
with anything like an endpin,
397
00:22:31,285 --> 00:22:34,655
but sometimes people would put
them on a stool to hold them up.
398
00:22:34,721 --> 00:22:36,423
But then, there were
even instruments called
399
00:22:36,490 --> 00:22:38,158
"violoncello da spalla."
400
00:22:38,225 --> 00:22:40,160
That means something
like "shoulder cello,"
401
00:22:40,227 --> 00:22:42,696
which were played like this
with a neck strap
402
00:22:42,763 --> 00:22:44,331
and fingered something
like a violin.
403
00:22:44,398 --> 00:22:45,832
So, there are
folks who speculate.
404
00:22:45,899 --> 00:22:47,835
Could it be
that Bach played the violin,
405
00:22:47,901 --> 00:22:50,237
and then he considered
the violoncello da spalla
406
00:22:50,304 --> 00:22:52,706
to be its larger cousin?
407
00:22:52,773 --> 00:22:54,041
The jury's out about that
408
00:22:54,107 --> 00:22:57,444
because there aren't surviving
instruments of that type
409
00:22:57,511 --> 00:22:59,913
that would give us a sense
of how large were they?
410
00:22:59,980 --> 00:23:01,915
Would this music be playable
on that instrument?
411
00:23:01,982 --> 00:23:05,352
But when I read writings
by people in Bach's circle--
412
00:23:05,419 --> 00:23:07,554
So, Bach had a cousin
who wrote a dictionary of music,
413
00:23:07,621 --> 00:23:09,156
and he writes
about "What is a cello?"
414
00:23:09,223 --> 00:23:10,791
He writes more about
that da spalla instrument
415
00:23:10,858 --> 00:23:13,393
than about this instrument,
so it makes you wonder.
416
00:23:13,460 --> 00:23:15,395
Musicians we know historically
who played the cello,
417
00:23:15,462 --> 00:23:18,131
could that be an instrument
they sometimes might have meant?
418
00:23:18,198 --> 00:23:20,701
- And what about five
versus four strings?
419
00:23:20,767 --> 00:23:23,370
You'd have completely different
fingering, wouldn't you?
420
00:23:23,437 --> 00:23:24,638
- Absolutely.
421
00:23:24,705 --> 00:23:27,975
So, we know fairly certainly
that the sixth suite,
422
00:23:28,041 --> 00:23:31,311
which we'll, I think, come back
to a little bit later,
423
00:23:31,378 --> 00:23:34,982
that that was intended to be
played on a five-string cello.
424
00:23:35,048 --> 00:23:37,251
And most of the time today,
425
00:23:37,317 --> 00:23:39,086
you'll hear that suite
on a four-string cello.
426
00:23:39,152 --> 00:23:43,690
It's not super practical to lug
around a five-string instrument
427
00:23:43,757 --> 00:23:45,492
when you're playing
a concert or something.
428
00:23:45,559 --> 00:23:46,994
And it's also difficult to learn
429
00:23:47,060 --> 00:23:48,929
if you've never played
a five-string cello before.
430
00:23:48,996 --> 00:23:51,899
So, we have to just compensate
for that loss
431
00:23:51,965 --> 00:23:54,034
of an extra string
on a four-string cello.
432
00:23:54,101 --> 00:23:56,803
And it's very hard.
[laughs]
433
00:23:56,870 --> 00:23:58,639
- Not exactly, as we say,
idiomatic
434
00:23:58,705 --> 00:24:00,274
on a four-string cello?
435
00:24:00,340 --> 00:24:01,575
- No.
436
00:24:01,642 --> 00:24:05,679
Would you say that the
five-string instrument was...?
437
00:24:05,746 --> 00:24:07,214
- I think it's most likely.
438
00:24:07,281 --> 00:24:09,016
And there are folks
who would disagree with me,
439
00:24:09,082 --> 00:24:11,752
but the consensus is probably
these pieces were written
440
00:24:11,818 --> 00:24:13,620
for a cello
that looks something like this.
441
00:24:13,687 --> 00:24:14,788
Do we know exactly?
442
00:24:14,855 --> 00:24:16,790
Was it this size,
or could it have been smaller?
443
00:24:16,857 --> 00:24:17,958
We don't know.
444
00:24:18,025 --> 00:24:19,760
Bach grew up in a family
that was responsible
445
00:24:19,826 --> 00:24:21,361
for a lot of different kinds
of instruments.
446
00:24:21,428 --> 00:24:24,131
His father had a title
called "The Town Piper"
447
00:24:24,198 --> 00:24:25,933
in the city of Eisenach.
448
00:24:25,999 --> 00:24:28,402
One imagines maybe
the young Johann Sebastian
449
00:24:28,468 --> 00:24:30,470
was put to work stringing
450
00:24:30,537 --> 00:24:33,774
and repairing instruments
as part of the family work.
451
00:24:33,841 --> 00:24:36,143
The violin he seems
to have mostly taught himself,
452
00:24:36,210 --> 00:24:37,377
so it's not impossible
453
00:24:37,444 --> 00:24:39,947
he could have played
some version of the cello,
454
00:24:40,013 --> 00:24:42,449
but we don't have any evidence
that we did.
455
00:24:42,516 --> 00:24:44,651
But it's almost like over
the course of the six suites,
456
00:24:44,718 --> 00:24:46,787
he wants to explore everything
possible on the cello.
457
00:24:46,854 --> 00:24:49,656
So, Suite No. 5 is written
for a different tuning
458
00:24:49,723 --> 00:24:52,492
that makes some different chords
and different colors possible.
459
00:24:52,559 --> 00:24:54,962
And then, Suite No. 6
for the five-string instrument
460
00:24:55,028 --> 00:24:57,731
means you can play
much higher, more brilliantly.
461
00:24:57,798 --> 00:24:59,633
And then, if you have
only a four-string instrument,
462
00:24:59,700 --> 00:25:02,536
it's possible, but it requires
a lot of compensation
463
00:25:02,603 --> 00:25:04,371
to get that high register
on an instrument
464
00:25:04,438 --> 00:25:06,707
that's missing
that high top string.
465
00:25:06,773 --> 00:25:10,911
- How about Bach's use of major
versus minor?
466
00:25:12,279 --> 00:25:16,416
What effects does he accomplish
when he goes into a minor key?
467
00:25:16,483 --> 00:25:19,286
We've been hearing
from major suites so far.
468
00:25:19,353 --> 00:25:21,221
- Yeah, it's really interesting.
469
00:25:21,288 --> 00:25:24,424
I mean, we call-- I don't wanna
speak out of turn here
470
00:25:24,491 --> 00:25:26,393
with a theorist present,
471
00:25:26,460 --> 00:25:30,297
but the relative major
or the relative minor key
472
00:25:30,364 --> 00:25:33,133
is, if you're in a suite
like the C Major Suite,
473
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,504
for example, the key of A minor
would be the relative minor
474
00:25:37,571 --> 00:25:39,106
because the key signature
is the same,
475
00:25:39,173 --> 00:25:40,908
the same number
of sharps and flats.
476
00:25:40,974 --> 00:25:42,509
Is that correct so far?
- Mm-hmm, yeah.
477
00:25:42,576 --> 00:25:45,579
- White keys, white keys,
I can tell you that much.
478
00:25:45,646 --> 00:25:47,481
- And, so, very often in,
479
00:25:47,548 --> 00:25:51,785
I'd say maybe most of the time
in the dance movements
480
00:25:51,852 --> 00:25:53,887
of the Bach suites
and the preludes,
481
00:25:53,954 --> 00:25:58,425
you'll see Bach go into the
relative of the original key.
482
00:25:58,492 --> 00:26:01,595
So, in the D Minor Suite,
for example,
483
00:26:01,662 --> 00:26:06,200
you see F major pretty early on,
which is its parallel key.
484
00:26:06,266 --> 00:26:07,601
And it's very interesting
485
00:26:07,668 --> 00:26:10,304
'cause in the context
of a minor suite,
486
00:26:10,370 --> 00:26:12,673
when you hear a major key,
I'm not sure--
487
00:26:12,739 --> 00:26:15,943
You know, we think sometimes
hearing a major key is happier.
488
00:26:16,009 --> 00:26:18,745
Sometimes I think the major keys
in the minor suite
489
00:26:18,812 --> 00:26:22,950
sometimes feel sadder
and even more reflective.
490
00:26:23,016 --> 00:26:25,085
And I think his use of that,
491
00:26:25,152 --> 00:26:27,921
of going into the major
and minor
492
00:26:27,988 --> 00:26:29,857
is really quite something.
493
00:26:29,923 --> 00:26:31,158
How do you feel about the...
494
00:26:31,225 --> 00:26:32,993
- Over the course
of a collection,
495
00:26:33,060 --> 00:26:34,595
so if you have these six suites,
496
00:26:34,661 --> 00:26:36,997
usually they'll be about half
and half major and minor.
497
00:26:37,064 --> 00:26:38,732
In this case, it's interesting.
498
00:26:38,799 --> 00:26:40,434
The first three suites
are major,
499
00:26:40,501 --> 00:26:42,769
minor, major,
and the next three,
500
00:26:42,836 --> 00:26:45,472
four, five and six, are also
major, minor, major.
501
00:26:45,539 --> 00:26:48,075
That could have been part of
how he designed the collection.
502
00:26:48,141 --> 00:26:49,243
And you're absolutely right.
503
00:26:49,309 --> 00:26:51,278
A piece in minor kind of
tends to aspire
504
00:26:51,345 --> 00:26:52,513
toward its relative major.
505
00:26:52,579 --> 00:26:55,516
So, if we start in C minor,
maybe E-flat major,
506
00:26:55,582 --> 00:26:58,118
which is the major key with the
same key signature, is a place
507
00:26:58,185 --> 00:27:00,721
we want to go
or the music trends toward.
508
00:27:00,787 --> 00:27:04,191
But also, we mentioned before,
those up-to-date dances
509
00:27:04,258 --> 00:27:06,026
that are in
the second-to-last position,
510
00:27:06,093 --> 00:27:07,227
often he does those in pairs.
511
00:27:07,294 --> 00:27:10,097
So, you'll have
minuet one, minuet two,
512
00:27:10,163 --> 00:27:11,598
and then back to minuet one.
513
00:27:11,665 --> 00:27:13,734
Those are often also major
and minor,
514
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,003
so you get those
juxtaposed as well.
515
00:27:16,069 --> 00:27:19,773
- A device very much with us
today still.
516
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:24,111
Well, let's hear a prelude
from a minor key.
517
00:27:24,178 --> 00:27:26,180
- Oh, sure, right,
yeah, sounds good.
518
00:27:26,246 --> 00:27:28,815
This is the D minor prelude.
519
00:27:30,651 --> 00:27:34,588
And you'll hear some--
Listen for the F major
520
00:27:34,655 --> 00:27:36,990
throughout that as well.
521
00:27:38,325 --> 00:27:39,993
Okay.
522
00:27:45,866 --> 00:27:48,001
[melodic cello music]
523
00:28:45,926 --> 00:28:48,061
[melodic cello music]
524
00:29:45,986 --> 00:29:48,121
[melodic cello music]
525
00:30:46,046 --> 00:30:48,182
[melodic cello music]
526
00:31:25,686 --> 00:31:27,287
- Norman: Also quite soulful.
527
00:31:27,354 --> 00:31:29,022
- It is, it is.
528
00:31:30,357 --> 00:31:32,993
- Well, I set up
three mysteries at the beginning
529
00:31:33,060 --> 00:31:34,394
of our conversation,
530
00:31:34,461 --> 00:31:37,064
and we've done our best
to answer one of those,
531
00:31:37,130 --> 00:31:40,267
which is
why Bach wrote these six suites
532
00:31:40,334 --> 00:31:42,369
for unaccompanied cello.
533
00:31:42,436 --> 00:31:45,772
But we don't have
his original manuscript.
534
00:31:45,839 --> 00:31:47,174
What do we have?
535
00:31:47,241 --> 00:31:50,210
- So, these four
manuscript copies,
536
00:31:50,277 --> 00:31:53,113
one written by his second wife,
Anna Magdalena Bach,
537
00:31:53,180 --> 00:31:56,683
one written by an organist
who was sort of in his circle,
538
00:31:56,750 --> 00:31:58,685
maybe his student,
Peter Kellner.
539
00:31:58,752 --> 00:32:00,087
And then, there are
these two copies
540
00:32:00,153 --> 00:32:01,722
that were made
about 50 years later
541
00:32:01,788 --> 00:32:04,558
by professional copyists
working from a manuscript
542
00:32:04,625 --> 00:32:06,593
that had been
in the collection of his son,
543
00:32:06,660 --> 00:32:08,428
Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach.
544
00:32:08,495 --> 00:32:10,030
And they're all
a little different.
545
00:32:10,097 --> 00:32:12,032
So, the notes are mostly
the same,
546
00:32:12,099 --> 00:32:13,433
but there are some differences.
547
00:32:13,500 --> 00:32:16,069
There are a lot more ornaments
in the later two copies.
548
00:32:16,136 --> 00:32:18,605
So, some folks have said,
well, they're much later,
549
00:32:18,672 --> 00:32:20,941
so surely we should rely
on the sources
550
00:32:21,008 --> 00:32:22,609
that were made closer to Bach.
551
00:32:22,676 --> 00:32:25,312
But the new thinking around that
is, well, they're later,
552
00:32:25,379 --> 00:32:27,881
but they were made from a copy
that belonged to Bach's son,
553
00:32:27,948 --> 00:32:30,584
the treasured copy that
he kept his entire lifetime.
554
00:32:30,651 --> 00:32:32,019
So, a cellist--
555
00:32:32,085 --> 00:32:34,221
And then the other thing that's
quite different is the slurs.
556
00:32:34,288 --> 00:32:35,956
So, that's a marking
saying, basically,
557
00:32:36,023 --> 00:32:37,925
how many notes do I play
on one bow?
558
00:32:37,991 --> 00:32:40,394
Is it ? dee da dum bop
bop bop bum? ?
559
00:32:40,460 --> 00:32:42,563
Or is it
? dee-ah da da dum bop? ?
560
00:32:42,629 --> 00:32:44,565
Or is it
? dim bop bop bop bum? ?
561
00:32:44,631 --> 00:32:45,966
And so,
if you're playing these pieces,
562
00:32:46,033 --> 00:32:47,968
you really would like to know,
if you're a violinist,
563
00:32:48,035 --> 00:32:50,871
you have Bach's handwriting
for his solo violin pieces.
564
00:32:50,938 --> 00:32:53,941
But a cellist, we have to
grapple with these differences
565
00:32:54,007 --> 00:32:55,542
and ultimately make
our own creative choices
566
00:32:55,609 --> 00:32:56,844
about how to approach it.
567
00:32:56,910 --> 00:33:00,214
- Does it help at all to have
those violin indications?
568
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,282
Does it translate over
to the cello at all,
569
00:33:02,349 --> 00:33:04,685
in terms of the phrasing?
- I think yes,
570
00:33:04,751 --> 00:33:06,887
because you can get some sense
for the kinds of slurs
571
00:33:06,954 --> 00:33:08,288
that Bach composes.
572
00:33:08,355 --> 00:33:11,024
But also, this is a kind of
Rosetta Stone kind of a story.
573
00:33:11,091 --> 00:33:14,027
Some of the copyists
who copied the violin pieces--
574
00:33:14,094 --> 00:33:16,463
the cello pieces
also copied the violin pieces.
575
00:33:16,530 --> 00:33:18,065
So, there are scholars
who have looked closely
576
00:33:18,131 --> 00:33:19,399
and sort of graded them.
577
00:33:19,466 --> 00:33:22,269
What percentage of their slurs
matched J.S. Bach's slurs
578
00:33:22,336 --> 00:33:24,938
for the violin pieces,
and what does that tell us about
579
00:33:25,005 --> 00:33:28,008
how we can rely on their copies
of the cello suites?
580
00:33:28,075 --> 00:33:31,411
- So, what do you go with?
[chuckles]
581
00:33:32,846 --> 00:33:33,947
- It's hard to say.
582
00:33:34,014 --> 00:33:36,283
I think, comparing the editions
583
00:33:36,350 --> 00:33:40,053
and being really thoughtful
about certain things,
584
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,857
you know, there's even--
There are a couple of moments,
585
00:33:43,924 --> 00:33:47,027
let's see, in the D minor suite,
for example,
586
00:33:47,094 --> 00:33:49,796
with an A flat
versus an A natural.
587
00:33:49,863 --> 00:33:52,733
And sometimes I ask
the students, like,
588
00:33:52,799 --> 00:33:54,401
"How do you feel about this?"
589
00:33:54,468 --> 00:33:58,539
Because it could sound, I mean,
they both work so beautifully,
590
00:33:58,605 --> 00:34:00,874
and it's so hard
to know the answer.
591
00:34:00,941 --> 00:34:02,843
And it's always interesting
to see the students say,
592
00:34:02,910 --> 00:34:04,378
"Well, I gravitate
toward the A flat
593
00:34:04,444 --> 00:34:05,979
'cause it sounds a little more
interesting," or,
594
00:34:06,046 --> 00:34:09,149
"The, you know, the A natural
sounds right to me."
595
00:34:09,216 --> 00:34:11,351
And in that case, I say, "Okay,
596
00:34:11,418 --> 00:34:14,888
"well, you know,
published, you know,
597
00:34:14,955 --> 00:34:17,791
literature here would agree
with you on either account."
598
00:34:17,858 --> 00:34:20,060
So, sometimes you have
to make those,
599
00:34:20,127 --> 00:34:21,762
those determinations, you know?
600
00:34:21,828 --> 00:34:23,964
- Oh, well,
I suppose in Bach's time,
601
00:34:24,031 --> 00:34:26,600
a piece was never played
exactly the same way twice.
602
00:34:26,667 --> 00:34:30,804
Even if you could, probably,
it would be more inviting
603
00:34:30,871 --> 00:34:34,508
to improvise a little bit
on the fly.
604
00:34:34,575 --> 00:34:35,843
- Right.
- All right.
605
00:34:35,909 --> 00:34:39,580
Well, Pablo Casals,
the great cellist,
606
00:34:40,414 --> 00:34:41,748
the one I teased
at the beginning
607
00:34:41,815 --> 00:34:46,920
as having made these suites
famous, before we get to him,
608
00:34:46,987 --> 00:34:51,558
what happened between about,
what, 1720 and 1900
609
00:34:53,126 --> 00:34:54,995
or so to these suites?
- Yeah.
610
00:34:55,062 --> 00:34:56,997
It's funny, when I set out
to write this book,
611
00:34:57,064 --> 00:34:58,398
I thought there wasn't much
to say
612
00:34:58,465 --> 00:35:01,001
between around 1720
and around 1903.
613
00:35:01,068 --> 00:35:03,003
I discovered there's
actually a lot you can trace.
614
00:35:03,070 --> 00:35:06,240
So, one is, when Bach died,
one of his students
615
00:35:06,306 --> 00:35:09,076
and one of his sons together
wrote an obituary
616
00:35:09,142 --> 00:35:10,878
describing his greatest
accomplishments,
617
00:35:10,944 --> 00:35:13,280
and they list all of his
compositions
618
00:35:13,347 --> 00:35:14,448
that they were aware of
619
00:35:14,515 --> 00:35:16,116
because they only knew
some of them.
620
00:35:16,183 --> 00:35:17,751
And, you know, it's mostly
keyboard music.
621
00:35:17,818 --> 00:35:20,554
It's mostly church music,
vocal music.
622
00:35:20,621 --> 00:35:21,755
But then they highlight
623
00:35:21,822 --> 00:35:24,591
a handful of pieces
that are instrumental pieces
624
00:35:24,658 --> 00:35:26,593
that they single out
for special mention,
625
00:35:26,660 --> 00:35:29,363
and they mention the solo violin
and the solo cello pieces.
626
00:35:29,429 --> 00:35:31,298
So, C.P.E. Bach certainly knew
this music.
627
00:35:31,365 --> 00:35:32,666
He had a copy of this.
628
00:35:32,733 --> 00:35:35,636
We know that Bach introduced
this music to his students,
629
00:35:35,702 --> 00:35:39,540
but it wasn't published
until around 1820 in Paris.
630
00:35:39,606 --> 00:35:40,974
And even then,
when it was published,
631
00:35:41,041 --> 00:35:42,276
it was published in an edition
632
00:35:42,342 --> 00:35:45,646
that described it more
as études than as concert music.
633
00:35:45,712 --> 00:35:46,914
- Norman: Yeah.
634
00:35:46,980 --> 00:35:49,116
- And we don't even think
people played it very much.
635
00:35:49,183 --> 00:35:50,717
There's actually
only one copy of that edition
636
00:35:50,784 --> 00:35:52,553
that still exists
in the world today.
637
00:35:52,619 --> 00:35:55,722
So, the story really picks up
around 1860,
638
00:35:55,789 --> 00:35:57,791
when there's now
many more editions and people
639
00:35:57,858 --> 00:35:59,526
are beginning
to incorporate this music
640
00:35:59,593 --> 00:36:01,295
into their concert repertoire.
641
00:36:01,361 --> 00:36:04,431
And we can trace in the reviews
that musicians--
642
00:36:04,498 --> 00:36:05,832
audiences were a little mixed
about this.
643
00:36:05,899 --> 00:36:07,935
Sometimes, they'd say,
you know, it was extraordinary
644
00:36:08,001 --> 00:36:09,970
to discover this music
by J.S. Bach.
645
00:36:10,037 --> 00:36:11,471
It's his highest accomplishment.
646
00:36:11,538 --> 00:36:13,640
The music are true poetry.
647
00:36:13,707 --> 00:36:15,342
And other reviews saying,
648
00:36:15,409 --> 00:36:17,878
well, it's really nothing but
a bunch of scales and arpeggios.
649
00:36:17,945 --> 00:36:19,746
It really should
never leave the classroom.
650
00:36:19,813 --> 00:36:22,916
It's to learn to play the cello,
it's not for concerts.
651
00:36:22,983 --> 00:36:25,352
There were musicians,
including Robert Schumann,
652
00:36:25,419 --> 00:36:28,021
but also others who composed
piano accompaniments,
653
00:36:28,088 --> 00:36:30,724
and their idea was
to modernize this music
654
00:36:30,791 --> 00:36:32,392
to suit the tastes
of their listeners,
655
00:36:32,459 --> 00:36:35,095
to make it something
more people might appreciate.
656
00:36:35,162 --> 00:36:37,965
There was another cellist,
Friedrich Grützmacher.
657
00:36:38,031 --> 00:36:39,800
He was probably the first
658
00:36:39,867 --> 00:36:42,769
to play a complete suite
regularly in recital,
659
00:36:42,836 --> 00:36:45,205
and he wrote this version
that's sort of souped up.
660
00:36:45,272 --> 00:36:48,275
He added more showy fingerings,
661
00:36:48,342 --> 00:36:50,777
more chords,
more up-bow staccato.
662
00:36:50,844 --> 00:36:53,614
That's where you play many notes
in a row, all in one bow.
663
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,817
And his feeling was,
he's taking the "bare original,"
664
00:36:56,884 --> 00:37:00,854
that's his words, and turning it
into what Bach would have done
665
00:37:00,921 --> 00:37:04,525
if he had fully appreciated what
was possible in his writing.
666
00:37:04,591 --> 00:37:05,726
- Well, that's the same thing
667
00:37:05,792 --> 00:37:07,361
Mahler said about souping up
Beethoven.
668
00:37:07,427 --> 00:37:08,829
- Right.
- You know, so, yeah,
669
00:37:08,896 --> 00:37:11,765
it belongs to us now,
and we can stylize it
670
00:37:11,832 --> 00:37:13,200
for our time.
- Precisely.
671
00:37:13,267 --> 00:37:15,202
- And, of course,
they had to sell tickets, too,
672
00:37:15,269 --> 00:37:17,304
if he was playing it in concert.
- Yeah.
673
00:37:17,371 --> 00:37:18,505
- Yeah, the Schumann
doesn't seem
674
00:37:18,572 --> 00:37:19,706
to have taken off very much.
675
00:37:19,773 --> 00:37:21,475
It got kind of, I think,
676
00:37:21,542 --> 00:37:23,510
bad reviews from the get-go,
didn't it?
677
00:37:23,577 --> 00:37:25,179
- He wasn't able to find
a publisher
678
00:37:25,245 --> 00:37:26,914
for his cello suites edition.
679
00:37:26,980 --> 00:37:28,315
He did for the violin pieces.
680
00:37:28,382 --> 00:37:31,385
And so, even as late
as the 1920s,
681
00:37:31,818 --> 00:37:33,253
there were people
performing the violin
682
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:35,856
and the cello pieces
with piano accompaniments.
683
00:37:35,923 --> 00:37:38,458
Not so much Schumann's,
since he didn't publish it,
684
00:37:38,525 --> 00:37:39,760
but there were many
other accompaniments
685
00:37:39,826 --> 00:37:40,994
that were published.
686
00:37:41,061 --> 00:37:42,196
You can hear them on YouTube,
687
00:37:42,262 --> 00:37:44,398
and it's interesting
to imagine, around the turn
688
00:37:44,464 --> 00:37:46,600
of the 20th century, people
who heard the cello suites,
689
00:37:46,667 --> 00:37:48,402
this was how many of them
heard it.
690
00:37:48,468 --> 00:37:50,304
And then, when we compare that
to Pablo Casals,
691
00:37:50,370 --> 00:37:54,274
whom you mentioned,
he really set a kind of standard
692
00:37:54,341 --> 00:37:56,643
that has influenced
generations of musicians
693
00:37:56,710 --> 00:37:58,145
in terms of the idea
694
00:37:58,212 --> 00:38:01,548
that a serious cellist should
know all six of these suites.
695
00:38:01,615 --> 00:38:02,716
If you perform it,
696
00:38:02,783 --> 00:38:04,418
you should perform
an entire suite in order
697
00:38:04,484 --> 00:38:07,054
with all the repeats
and definitely no piano.
698
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,356
So, that idea sort of died
with Pablo Casals.
699
00:38:09,423 --> 00:38:12,125
He made the first complete
recording in the late 1930s.
700
00:38:12,192 --> 00:38:13,927
- There's one piece
in particular from these suites
701
00:38:13,994 --> 00:38:16,563
that seems to be popular
among Suzuki players.
702
00:38:16,630 --> 00:38:18,065
Which one is that?
- Matthew: Yeah.
703
00:38:18,131 --> 00:38:22,202
So, the first Bach movement
that I learned as a kid
704
00:38:22,269 --> 00:38:24,371
and that we see quite often
705
00:38:24,438 --> 00:38:28,041
is the bourrées
from the third suite.
706
00:38:28,108 --> 00:38:32,279
And I don't know for sure if
it's still in the Suzuki books.
707
00:38:32,346 --> 00:38:37,251
It's sort of a discussion
among many of us to say,
708
00:38:37,317 --> 00:38:40,988
how early should
we introduce Bach to kids
709
00:38:41,054 --> 00:38:43,290
when they maybe don't know
the theory
710
00:38:43,357 --> 00:38:46,593
when Bach is, you know,
our grandfather of modern theory
711
00:38:46,660 --> 00:38:47,761
and all these things.
712
00:38:47,828 --> 00:38:49,496
And now, we say,
713
00:38:50,797 --> 00:38:53,834
no, it's so great for kids
to be exposed to this music
714
00:38:53,901 --> 00:38:55,435
and to get it in their ears,
right?
715
00:38:55,502 --> 00:38:58,238
And as I did, I think I was
maybe nine or ten years old
716
00:38:58,305 --> 00:39:01,642
when I learned what I'm
about to play for you.
717
00:39:01,708 --> 00:39:04,611
And this is a great example
of the major to minor,
718
00:39:04,678 --> 00:39:07,614
which you'll hear
in the second bourrée,
719
00:39:07,681 --> 00:39:09,683
which is entirely in minor.
720
00:39:09,750 --> 00:39:11,418
So, okay.
721
00:39:14,922 --> 00:39:16,924
[lively cello music]
722
00:40:14,982 --> 00:40:16,984
[gentle cello music]
723
00:41:15,042 --> 00:41:17,044
[lively cello music]
724
00:42:02,689 --> 00:42:04,925
- So, how many different ways
are there to play that?
725
00:42:04,992 --> 00:42:06,693
[all laugh]
726
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:08,061
- There are so many ways.
727
00:42:08,128 --> 00:42:09,229
There are so many ways.
728
00:42:09,296 --> 00:42:11,331
You know,
you have something so simple
729
00:42:11,398 --> 00:42:13,300
that can be treated
so differently.
730
00:42:13,367 --> 00:42:15,035
It can be strong.
731
00:42:16,336 --> 00:42:18,338
[lively cello music]
732
00:42:19,339 --> 00:42:21,008
It could be light.
733
00:42:21,074 --> 00:42:23,076
[softer cello music]
734
00:42:24,077 --> 00:42:25,512
It can be playful.
735
00:42:25,579 --> 00:42:28,081
It can be so many
different things, you know?
736
00:42:28,148 --> 00:42:30,384
- How did Casals play it?
737
00:42:32,152 --> 00:42:33,253
- It's interesting.
738
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,423
Casals, when you hear
the recordings now,
739
00:42:36,490 --> 00:42:37,691
we look at those recordings
740
00:42:37,758 --> 00:42:41,094
and we say just
how unbelievable it was
741
00:42:41,161 --> 00:42:44,097
that he recorded these pieces
with no standard.
742
00:42:44,164 --> 00:42:45,632
He was the standard.
743
00:42:45,699 --> 00:42:46,867
It's really amazing
744
00:42:46,934 --> 00:42:49,837
because now, when we
are performing these suites,
745
00:42:49,903 --> 00:42:52,372
we can listen to hundreds
of recordings
746
00:42:52,439 --> 00:42:55,075
for inspiration and ideas
and thoughts
747
00:42:55,142 --> 00:42:56,677
and what we love,
what we don't love.
748
00:42:56,743 --> 00:43:00,214
And to imagine Pablo Casals
recording these with,
749
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,616
you know,
just his own commitment,
750
00:43:02,683 --> 00:43:04,985
it's really unbelievable.
751
00:43:05,052 --> 00:43:08,856
A lot of Casals,
maybe by today's standards,
752
00:43:08,922 --> 00:43:12,593
you'd say that the
interpretations are very robust,
753
00:43:12,659 --> 00:43:17,130
very earthy, and with a
really full, rich sound,
754
00:43:18,398 --> 00:43:22,636
which now, as we're starting to
learn about period performance,
755
00:43:22,703 --> 00:43:24,438
where we're trying
to kind of go back
756
00:43:24,505 --> 00:43:27,975
to what maybe was
more likely the case
757
00:43:28,909 --> 00:43:31,879
when Bach wrote these pieces,
758
00:43:31,945 --> 00:43:34,882
we maybe wouldn't treat
articulations the same way,
759
00:43:34,948 --> 00:43:38,819
and we wouldn't treat vibrato
and certain things like that
760
00:43:38,886 --> 00:43:43,824
in the same way that Casals did
now that we've learned so much.
761
00:43:43,891 --> 00:43:48,695
But still amazing to hear
how he treated all those pieces.
762
00:43:48,762 --> 00:43:50,764
- Well, if they do get
progressively difficult,
763
00:43:50,831 --> 00:43:54,368
these six suites
for unaccompanied cello,
764
00:43:54,434 --> 00:43:55,936
let's tap into that last one.
765
00:43:56,003 --> 00:43:57,538
Put you on the spot, Matt,
[Matt laughs]
766
00:43:57,604 --> 00:44:00,107
and see how tough
we can make it on you
767
00:44:00,174 --> 00:44:02,976
with a couple of the dance
movements from that,
768
00:44:03,043 --> 00:44:04,811
and an up tempo on that.
769
00:44:04,878 --> 00:44:06,647
- Yeah, did you want
the demonstrations
770
00:44:06,713 --> 00:44:07,881
of why it's so challenging?
771
00:44:07,948 --> 00:44:09,550
- Yeah,
why is it so challenging?
772
00:44:09,616 --> 00:44:13,954
- Well, as Professor Klorman,
as Ed was saying,
773
00:44:14,721 --> 00:44:19,426
we have four strings
instead of five for the suite.
774
00:44:19,493 --> 00:44:23,063
There would have been
an E string above this A string.
775
00:44:23,130 --> 00:44:25,866
And what that would have
meant is playing the gavottes,
776
00:44:25,933 --> 00:44:27,067
for example,
from the sixth suite,
777
00:44:27,134 --> 00:44:29,369
which, on a four-string cello,
we have to...
778
00:44:29,436 --> 00:44:31,104
[bright notes]
779
00:44:34,708 --> 00:44:38,111
...contort our hand
in these crazy ways
780
00:44:38,178 --> 00:44:40,380
just to be able to play
these chords.
781
00:44:40,447 --> 00:44:43,050
If we had our open strings,
it would sound more like...
782
00:44:43,116 --> 00:44:44,785
[gentle notes]
783
00:44:45,118 --> 00:44:47,087
It'd be so easy.
[Norman laughs]
784
00:44:47,154 --> 00:44:48,622
It'd be so great.
785
00:44:48,689 --> 00:44:51,925
And yet, there's something
about hearing these pieces
786
00:44:51,992 --> 00:44:54,161
in their original key in D major
787
00:44:54,228 --> 00:44:56,964
that requires us to try
and navigate this.
788
00:44:57,030 --> 00:44:59,299
So, that's what you'll hear.
789
00:44:59,366 --> 00:45:02,069
Shall I play both movements,
the gavottes and the gigue now?
790
00:45:02,135 --> 00:45:03,470
- Oh, for sure.
- Yeah.
791
00:45:03,537 --> 00:45:07,241
So, you'll hear the gavottes
from the sixth suite
792
00:45:07,307 --> 00:45:10,110
and you'll then hear
the gigue which follows,
793
00:45:10,177 --> 00:45:13,714
which I think are two of the
most challenging movements
794
00:45:13,780 --> 00:45:16,083
in all six suites, so...
- We'll be watching.
795
00:45:16,149 --> 00:45:19,286
- Here it goes,
yeah, no promises.
796
00:45:19,353 --> 00:45:21,021
Okay.
797
00:45:24,791 --> 00:45:26,793
[lively cello music]
798
00:46:24,852 --> 00:46:26,854
[lively cello music]
799
00:47:24,912 --> 00:47:26,914
[lively cello music]
800
00:48:24,972 --> 00:48:26,974
[lively cello music]
801
00:49:25,032 --> 00:49:27,034
[lively cello music]
802
00:50:20,487 --> 00:50:23,290
- Well, given the number of
miles traveled by your fingers,
803
00:50:23,357 --> 00:50:26,126
[all laugh]
I'd say that alone rates...
804
00:50:26,193 --> 00:50:28,295
- Matthew: Yeah.
- ...the most difficult part
805
00:50:28,362 --> 00:50:30,964
of this exercise.
- This is a lot.
806
00:50:31,031 --> 00:50:33,000
Yeah, it's very hard.
807
00:50:33,066 --> 00:50:36,937
- But it also struck me
that those two movements,
808
00:50:37,004 --> 00:50:40,140
it was a gavotte and gigue.
- Yes.
809
00:50:40,207 --> 00:50:45,078
- Gigue being just a jig
originating in English form,
810
00:50:45,145 --> 00:50:46,680
so far as we know.
811
00:50:46,747 --> 00:50:49,683
Struck me as being the most
like folk music
812
00:50:49,750 --> 00:50:52,386
that we might hear today.
- Yeah.
813
00:50:52,452 --> 00:50:53,587
- Actually,
this is the gavottes.
814
00:50:53,654 --> 00:50:56,290
We heard those two gavottes,
one after the other.
815
00:50:56,356 --> 00:50:59,459
The second one had a nickname
that was given to it
816
00:50:59,526 --> 00:51:00,627
sometime around 1870.
817
00:51:00,694 --> 00:51:02,129
It was called "La Musette."
818
00:51:02,196 --> 00:51:04,264
And that's a word
that refers to, like, a bagpipe
819
00:51:04,331 --> 00:51:05,666
kind of an instrument
with a drone.
820
00:51:05,732 --> 00:51:07,467
- Yeah.
- And there's a segment in it.
821
00:51:07,534 --> 00:51:09,870
? Ya da da da da
da da da da da ?
822
00:51:09,937 --> 00:51:11,271
Maybe we could hear
a little bit.
823
00:51:11,338 --> 00:51:13,674
And you'll hear a droned low D
that's meant to sound
824
00:51:13,740 --> 00:51:15,676
a little bit like a bagpipe
sort of an instrument.
825
00:51:15,742 --> 00:51:16,844
- Hurdy-gurdy?
- Yeah.
826
00:51:16,910 --> 00:51:18,912
[lively cello music]
827
00:51:21,515 --> 00:51:23,450
So, when you hear
those two gavottes back to back,
828
00:51:23,517 --> 00:51:25,752
one of them is in a more
sophisticated register,
829
00:51:25,819 --> 00:51:26,920
you could say.
830
00:51:26,987 --> 00:51:28,722
And the other is
in a more folk register.
831
00:51:28,789 --> 00:51:31,725
So, that's a kind of contrast
Bach composed into them.
832
00:51:31,792 --> 00:51:33,493
- Getting back to Casals
for a minute,
833
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:34,795
he said something interesting.
834
00:51:34,862 --> 00:51:39,266
He played these six suites
for seventy years or more.
835
00:51:39,333 --> 00:51:41,869
- Edward: He began every day...
- All the way into his 80s.
836
00:51:41,935 --> 00:51:43,737
- Playing The Well-Tempered
Clavier at the piano,
837
00:51:43,804 --> 00:51:45,272
followed by the cello suites.
838
00:51:45,339 --> 00:51:47,474
And when people asked him
when he was in his 80s
839
00:51:47,541 --> 00:51:48,809
and no longer playing concerts,
840
00:51:48,876 --> 00:51:50,477
"Why do you still practice
every day?"
841
00:51:50,544 --> 00:51:52,546
And he would joke, "Well,
I believe I'm making progress."
842
00:51:52,613 --> 00:51:54,147
- I know, isn't that
a great line,
843
00:51:54,214 --> 00:51:55,582
though?
- It's a great line.
844
00:51:55,649 --> 00:51:58,685
- I mean, because even Casals
was saying, who may have been,
845
00:51:58,752 --> 00:52:00,921
well, probably was more
acquainted with these suites
846
00:52:00,988 --> 00:52:03,457
as a performer
than anyone else over those,
847
00:52:03,524 --> 00:52:06,126
course of those 75 years or so.
848
00:52:07,995 --> 00:52:10,097
Interpreting them
slightly differently
849
00:52:10,163 --> 00:52:13,166
each time he played them.
- Yeah.
850
00:52:14,034 --> 00:52:17,504
- Well, how's it working
for you? [Matthew laughs]
851
00:52:17,571 --> 00:52:19,006
- It is very interesting.
852
00:52:19,072 --> 00:52:21,008
I mean, I've only been playing
these suites
853
00:52:21,074 --> 00:52:24,278
for maybe 15, 20 years,
[laughs]
854
00:52:24,344 --> 00:52:27,881
but when I come back and hear
an old recording or something,
855
00:52:27,948 --> 00:52:32,286
I realize, you know,
as we grow and as we change,
856
00:52:33,020 --> 00:52:35,522
our feelings about these pieces
change.
857
00:52:35,589 --> 00:52:38,225
And I think the most
amazing example of this
858
00:52:38,292 --> 00:52:41,161
is hearing Glenn Gould's
Goldberg Variation recordings.
859
00:52:41,228 --> 00:52:43,463
- Uh-huh, he did 'em twice.
- He did them twice.
860
00:52:43,530 --> 00:52:45,632
- Many years apart.
- There's the 1955,
861
00:52:45,699 --> 00:52:47,668
and then there's the--
- 1980, I think.
862
00:52:47,734 --> 00:52:51,104
- Yeah, and to hear just
how different that is,
863
00:52:51,171 --> 00:52:53,473
it's sort of
the lived experience
864
00:52:53,540 --> 00:52:54,842
and the thoughtfulness.
865
00:52:54,908 --> 00:52:57,811
And not to say that the '55
recording isn't spectacular,
866
00:52:57,878 --> 00:52:59,746
because it is, but...
867
00:52:59,813 --> 00:53:01,415
- And of course,
not on the harpsichord,
868
00:53:01,481 --> 00:53:04,585
but both on the piano,
contemporary piano,
869
00:53:04,651 --> 00:53:06,486
and, as you say,
870
00:53:06,553 --> 00:53:09,590
very different interpretations
over the course of time.
871
00:53:09,656 --> 00:53:10,757
- Matthew: Absolutely.
872
00:53:10,824 --> 00:53:12,960
- And that gets us back
to this question of time.
873
00:53:13,026 --> 00:53:14,895
What is it that
you think makes Bach,
874
00:53:14,962 --> 00:53:16,797
and particularly,
I'm going to call it this
875
00:53:16,864 --> 00:53:22,102
really stripped-down Bach,
just one instrument, so...
876
00:53:23,570 --> 00:53:28,709
So contemporary and, at the same
time, so traditional?
877
00:53:29,343 --> 00:53:30,978
What is it that makes it endure?
878
00:53:31,044 --> 00:53:32,913
- This is music
that musicians live with
879
00:53:32,980 --> 00:53:35,182
over the course of a lifetime,
so it grows with them,
880
00:53:35,249 --> 00:53:36,683
and there's so many
different ways
881
00:53:36,750 --> 00:53:39,653
to do it
that it's endlessly enriching.
882
00:53:39,720 --> 00:53:41,388
So, I think that's one
piece of it.
883
00:53:41,455 --> 00:53:43,423
I think some
of the mysteries surrounding it,
884
00:53:43,490 --> 00:53:45,259
how, you know, why this music?
885
00:53:45,325 --> 00:53:48,462
When Bach wrote for solo violin,
he had precursors.
886
00:53:48,529 --> 00:53:51,131
He had heard other musicians
who had written for solo violin.
887
00:53:51,198 --> 00:53:52,432
He had contemporaries.
888
00:53:52,499 --> 00:53:55,302
But solo cello was, he
was sort of doing his own thing,
889
00:53:55,369 --> 00:53:58,105
at least in
German-speaking lands.
890
00:53:58,172 --> 00:54:00,574
So, this is music that people
have always wondered around.
891
00:54:00,641 --> 00:54:03,310
Then, this story around Casals,
you know, there's the narrative
892
00:54:03,377 --> 00:54:05,212
that Casals discovered
the cello suites.
893
00:54:05,279 --> 00:54:06,513
And I push back at that
894
00:54:06,580 --> 00:54:09,249
because there's a history
before Casals.
895
00:54:09,316 --> 00:54:11,952
But there's
a kind of romance about the idea
896
00:54:12,019 --> 00:54:13,220
that this was music
897
00:54:13,287 --> 00:54:15,122
that was believed to have been
completely forgotten
898
00:54:15,189 --> 00:54:17,591
and single-handedly resurrected
by one person
899
00:54:17,658 --> 00:54:18,759
in an unlikely story.
900
00:54:18,825 --> 00:54:20,761
The story is that he,
as a teenager,
901
00:54:20,827 --> 00:54:24,798
found a used copy on a shelf
and never heard of this music.
902
00:54:24,865 --> 00:54:26,066
And then, the other thing
903
00:54:26,133 --> 00:54:28,435
that I think Casals
has to do with this legacy is,
904
00:54:28,502 --> 00:54:31,438
you know, Casals, you know,
he was Catalonian.
905
00:54:31,505 --> 00:54:34,675
And when Franco came to power,
he fled Spain.
906
00:54:34,741 --> 00:54:39,012
He refused to perform in any
country that recognized Franco.
907
00:54:39,079 --> 00:54:42,482
So, his leftist values were
very tied to his idea
908
00:54:42,549 --> 00:54:44,351
of freedom in music making.
909
00:54:44,418 --> 00:54:46,553
That inspired many other
musicians who followed him.
910
00:54:46,620 --> 00:54:49,656
I'm thinking of the Russian
cellist Mstislav Rostropovich,
911
00:54:49,723 --> 00:54:51,592
who played the Bach cello suites
912
00:54:51,658 --> 00:54:53,961
as the Berlin Wall was falling.
- Norman: Checkpoint Charlie.
913
00:54:54,027 --> 00:54:56,129
- Exactly, there's a statue
commemorating this.
914
00:54:56,196 --> 00:54:57,798
There's a children's
book about Yo-Yo Ma
915
00:54:57,865 --> 00:55:00,234
playing the cello suites
at the U.S.-Mexico border.
916
00:55:00,300 --> 00:55:01,969
So, many people have found
in this music
917
00:55:02,035 --> 00:55:05,506
a kind of humanitarian
or pro-peace,
918
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:09,977
and something that maybe
transcends barriers of language,
919
00:55:10,043 --> 00:55:11,645
barriers of culture.
920
00:55:11,712 --> 00:55:14,248
- Is that more so, do you
think, than other works by Bach?
921
00:55:14,314 --> 00:55:17,217
Is it singular to these suites?
922
00:55:18,318 --> 00:55:21,788
- I think Bach has a way
of reaching our souls
923
00:55:21,855 --> 00:55:25,425
in such a special, unique way,
I think.
924
00:55:26,293 --> 00:55:28,028
You know, hearing
St Matthew's Passion
925
00:55:28,095 --> 00:55:29,830
or something has a way
926
00:55:29,897 --> 00:55:34,668
of being a truly moving
spiritual experience.
927
00:55:34,735 --> 00:55:38,672
I think there is something
so unique about being a single--
928
00:55:38,739 --> 00:55:40,541
a single instrumentalist
929
00:55:40,607 --> 00:55:43,243
and playing so many voices
and playing polyphony,
930
00:55:43,310 --> 00:55:44,444
which is what you've
been hearing,
931
00:55:44,511 --> 00:55:45,612
all the chords, you know,
932
00:55:45,679 --> 00:55:47,748
multiple things happening
at the same time,
933
00:55:47,814 --> 00:55:50,717
but all coming from one person.
934
00:55:51,618 --> 00:55:55,055
I think there is something very
special about that too, so.
935
00:55:55,122 --> 00:55:56,623
- One person aspiring
to do more
936
00:55:56,690 --> 00:55:58,792
than their equipment
is really able to do.
937
00:55:58,859 --> 00:56:02,262
So, a lot of it is this fantasy
that you're hearing more,
938
00:56:02,329 --> 00:56:03,864
or you're aspiring
towards something greater
939
00:56:03,931 --> 00:56:05,365
than your instrument
is equipped.
940
00:56:05,432 --> 00:56:06,533
- Yeah.
941
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:08,735
- Well, that is the story
that you tell of Bach,
942
00:56:08,802 --> 00:56:12,172
who always wanted to get more
out of the instrument.
943
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:13,574
And then...
944
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:16,610
And he was always interested
in the latest instruments too.
945
00:56:16,677 --> 00:56:19,847
Keyboards
or apparently cellos as well.
946
00:56:19,913 --> 00:56:22,049
You know, "What can
this one do that I haven't been
947
00:56:22,115 --> 00:56:23,517
able to do before?"
- That's right.
948
00:56:23,584 --> 00:56:26,119
He wrote this music while he was
working in the city of Kürten,
949
00:56:26,186 --> 00:56:28,555
but not too many years later,
he moved to Leipzig,
950
00:56:28,622 --> 00:56:30,290
where he spent much
of his career,
951
00:56:30,357 --> 00:56:31,758
and it was there
he was interested
952
00:56:31,825 --> 00:56:33,760
in different versions
of the cello.
953
00:56:33,827 --> 00:56:36,597
So, he wrote some music for what
seems to be a five-string cello.
954
00:56:36,663 --> 00:56:38,899
He worked
with an instrument maker
955
00:56:38,966 --> 00:56:41,368
to develop something
called the viola pomposa,
956
00:56:41,435 --> 00:56:45,105
which is another variety
of a cello-type instrument.
957
00:56:45,172 --> 00:56:46,640
Since some of those
had five strings,
958
00:56:46,707 --> 00:56:48,041
that's led some people
to speculate
959
00:56:48,108 --> 00:56:49,776
maybe the cello suites
had something
960
00:56:49,843 --> 00:56:50,944
to do with those instruments
961
00:56:51,011 --> 00:56:53,447
and were written at that time
in Leipzig.
962
00:56:53,514 --> 00:56:55,849
But most folks agree
that they were probably written
963
00:56:55,916 --> 00:56:57,351
at that previous position
in Kürten.
964
00:56:57,417 --> 00:56:59,686
That was where
he specialized in secular music.
965
00:56:59,753 --> 00:57:01,421
So, a lot of his
instrumental music pieces,
966
00:57:01,488 --> 00:57:03,690
like The Well-Tempered Clavier
were finished there,
967
00:57:03,757 --> 00:57:07,094
the Brandenburg Concertos,
many of the keyboard suites,
968
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:09,096
and then the unaccompanied
violin and cello pieces,
969
00:57:09,162 --> 00:57:10,497
most likely.
970
00:57:10,564 --> 00:57:13,634
- And there he is, what, in his
mid 30s writing this music.
971
00:57:13,700 --> 00:57:16,103
- Very impressive
and mostly self-taught musician
972
00:57:16,170 --> 00:57:19,540
who really dreamed
a lot about what's possible
973
00:57:19,606 --> 00:57:22,409
with limited, limited means.
974
00:57:23,377 --> 00:57:25,913
- Well,
Ed Klorman and Matt Zalkind,
975
00:57:25,979 --> 00:57:29,149
a great pleasure having
you share your music
976
00:57:29,216 --> 00:57:31,552
and your insights
into the music with us.
977
00:57:31,618 --> 00:57:32,719
- It's been our pleasure.
978
00:57:32,786 --> 00:57:33,887
Thanks for having us.
979
00:57:33,954 --> 00:57:35,289
- Thanks for having us,
thank you.
980
00:57:35,355 --> 00:57:37,291
- I'm Norman Gilliland,
and I hope you'll join me
981
00:57:37,357 --> 00:57:40,594
next time around for
University Place Presents.
982
00:57:40,661 --> 00:57:42,329
[gentle music]