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[gentle music]
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- Norman Gilliland: Welcome
to University Place Presents.
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I'm Norman Gilliland.
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As the smoke cleared
at the end of World War II,
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it became obvious
that one of the casualties
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of the war was colonialism.
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Between 1945 and 1955,
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some 20 colonies
gained their independence,
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said to be the greatest change
in the world order
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since the fall
of the Roman Empire.
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How did the war bring about
that wave of independence?
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We're going to look at a world
profoundly changed
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with Christopher Kolakowski,
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the director of
the Wisconsin Veterans Museum.
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Welcome to
University Place Presents.
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- Christopher Kolakowski:
Well, thanks for having me.
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- I remember maps from prior to,
let's say, 1955 or so,
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you see a map of Africa
in particular,
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not many different colors
on that map
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because you had so many
countries,
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or colonies that became
countries
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that belonged
to France or Britain or Italy,
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and things changed
very quickly after 1945, 1955,
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that profound change.
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- So, that's not our phrase.
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That's not your phrase.
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That's actually their phrase.
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The U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff
in August of 1944,
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during-- as it became clear
that World War II
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was gonna draw
to a close in 1945,
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and it was going to produce
Allied victory,
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the State Department
asked for an assessment
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from the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
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What's that gonna mean?
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What are the projections?
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And they came up with,
and they said it's going to be
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a world profoundly changed.
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And they were
the ones who identified
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in the last 1,500 years--
then, 1,500 years--
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since the fall of Rome
in AD 476,
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this is gonna be the greatest
remaking of the world.
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And they talked about the
emergence of the United States
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and the Soviet Union
as superpowers,
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Britain and the British Empire,
French Empire coming out,
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as they put it,
greatly diminished,
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and what that was gonna mean
for the world.
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It was a change.
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They were absolutely right
in my opinion.
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It was a change
that's still with us today.
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In fact, I would argue that, if
you look at most of the world,
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1945 is yesterday.
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And so, to understand
the world that we live in,
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you have to start with
World War II and its aftermath.
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- It happened so quickly,
though, this profound change.
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The war ends August of 1945.
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By, well, by 1949, the Soviets
have a nuclear bomb.
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- Christopher: Right.
- And it's a face-off.
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- And that's one of the things
that really
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kind of overshadows all this
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is if you look at the previous
250 years of history
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before 1945,
the great nations of the world,
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the Spanish Empire,
the British Empire,
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the French Empire,
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and then you get, you know,
a developing United States.
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We were still the 13 colonies
and then all that.
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But the western Europe
was really the center
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of global geopolitical power.
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In 1945, that's all changed.
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And it's changed for two--
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It's really the culmination
of two reasons.
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First is 30 years of warfare
that ends, starting in 1914.
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From 1914 to 1918,
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one Frenchman died every seven
seconds on the Western Front.
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The British Empire,
it's been said,
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was hollowed out
by its losses in World War I.
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There were one in three
military-age males
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that were a casualty,
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killed, wounded, or captured,
in the First World War.
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- Including a lot in the upper
classes, which was unusual.
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- A lot in the upper classes.
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But it's also where
you get Imperial troops
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that come from around the world.
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You know,
we think of the Australians
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and the New Zealands.
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There was also, you know,
Indian Army that were there.
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The French
brought African troops,
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they brought Vietnamese that
fought on the Western Front.
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And what that does is that
begins to plant a seed of,
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"Well, wait a minute.
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We can defend ourselves."
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It creates that sense of...
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"We're people.
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We may be within an empire,
but we are people."
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And that seed begins
to branch into nationalism.
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To me, it's no accident
that Ho Chi Minh,
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who is obviously well known
to students of the Vietnam War,
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attended the Versailles
Peace Conference in 1919
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asking for the independence
of French Indochina and Vietnam.
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- That far back.
- That far back.
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So, you've got these empires
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that, all of a sudden,
are becoming more fragile
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because of the costs
of the war,
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physical, monetary, people,
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and then you get
this budding nationalism
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that begins to build up.
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Then, you go to
the Second World War.
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France falls in 1940.
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Britain has a real problem
holding on to the Empire.
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In fact, in 1942,
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when Winston Churchill
and Franklin Roosevelt
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meet to divide the world,
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basically,
who's gonna run the war
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in this part of the world,
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who's gonna run the war
in this part of the world,
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after Pearl Harbor,
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Britain cedes most
of its Pacific possessions
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to the strategic direction
of the United States
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because we can't defend them.
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And to my mind, that's a
big admission at that moment
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that the British Empire is...
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the tide of the British Empire
is now receding.
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So, you put all this together,
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and then you add in the fact
that the Soviet Union
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advances, basically,
into the middle of Europe,
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the United States advances
to the other end of Europe.
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The United States has a key role
in winning the Pacific War
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and runs the occupation
of Japan,
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and it becomes very clear
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that what the Joint Chiefs
were saying
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came to be true.
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And they said that,
you know, the British Empire
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would be diminished,
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but would be a valuable ally
for one side or the other.
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- Just for a moment,
I wanna skip
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to our contemporary situation.
- Sure.
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- And use that same phenomenon
of empire funneling its colonies
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and their military power
into the survival of the empire,
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and apply that
to the Soviet Union,
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which, as we know, is not
a homogeneous population at all.
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- Right, very much so.
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- And even though, of course,
it has lost some of its...
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satellite states, let's say,
to independence
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or greater independence already,
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how does that forebode for
some of those other republics
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that are still part
of the Soviet Union,
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if they see we're ethnically
different from the Russians,
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and yes, Russia is capable
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of quite
the amount of blundering
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in their military conflicts.
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What do you think?
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- I think that's
one of the reasons
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why the Soviet Union was
structured the way that it was,
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particularly with
the activities of the KGB.
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And you look
at the secret police
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and you look at the structure
of the Soviet state,
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and how centralized
everything was in Moscow.
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There was no question
that Moscow was boss.
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But there was always
a certain uneasiness.
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And now that you see some of
the papers that have come out,
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you notice that there's
a certain uneasiness
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about some
of the Soviet leaders,
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about how much control
can they cede,
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and that's also why, you know,
glasnost and perestroika,
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under Gorbachev
in the late '80s,
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it pulled the lid off of that.
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And so, all of a sudden,
the Latvians,
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the Lithuanians, the Estonians,
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which were independent nations
between the world wars,
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and then annexed
by the Soviets,
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very quickly, first opportunity,
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jumped ship
and became independent.
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Same with the Ukrainians,
same with the Kazakhs.
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You know, you look
at all of these different...
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The Soviet Union timeline
was a little bit different,
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but it was very much
experienced,
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very much the same sort of,
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same sort of dissolution that
the British and the French did
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in the middle part
of the 20th century.
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They just did it
in 1989 to 1991.
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- And to some extent,
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places like
the former Czechoslovakia,
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Poland...
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Moldova, countries that
we barely know where they are
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because they were parts of
other countries for so long,
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were colonies
of the Soviet Union.
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- Very much, and actually,
I think the map
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that we're showing here
illustrates that.
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And that's why I like to start
a discussion of this period
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with this map.
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To understand Russia today
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and to understand
the Soviet Union after 1945,
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you've got to understand
their experience during the war.
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The Soviets had been involved
as an ally of the Germans
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from 1939 to 1941.
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And then, on June 22, 1941,
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the Germans
invaded the Soviet Union.
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The Soviets lost by...
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Depending on whose estimates
you believe,
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I've seen-- The most consistent
estimates I've seen
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is 35 million people in 4 years.
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- Civilians and military.
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- Civilians, military,
most of them dead.
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And the Germans
advanced 1,500 miles
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into the gates of Moscow,
to the gates of Stalingrad.
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It would be the equivalent today
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if somebody
were to invade the East Coast
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and advance to Kansas City,
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and then have to be forcibly
evicted from the United States.
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So...
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And some of the
bloodiest battles in history
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were fought between
the Germans and the Soviets
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on the Eastern Front.
- Notoriously.
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- Exactly.
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And preventing that
from ever happening again
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has been something--
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First of all,
it maimed a generation.
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It burrowed itself very deeply
into the Russian psyche.
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But preventing that
has been something
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that every Russian leader
and Soviet leader since
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has wanted to do.
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I would argue today
that if you want to understand
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Vladimir Putin's thinking,
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you have to start
with his parents' experience
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in the Second World War
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where they survived
the horrific siege of Leningrad.
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At one point, his mother
was given up for dead,
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but his father
was able to rescue him.
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Putin was born after the war,
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but that's the story
he grew up with.
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And then, this whole,
with the, you know,
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with the German invasion,
things like that,
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that's why Joseph Stalin,
at the end of the war,
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wanted to set up
the chain of satellites.
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We know it
as the Warsaw Pact after 1955,
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and it's a series
of buffer states
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to provide for some
additional layers of security
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to the Soviet Union.
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Of course, as soon
as the Soviet Union fell,
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virtually all
of those Warsaw Pact states
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wanted to join NATO.
- Yes,
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which was a little much,
wasn't it, for the Soviets?
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- Well, and think about it.
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All of a sudden, the NATO
borders start marching east,
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and then,
they start talking about
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bringing in
the Baltic countries,
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which used to be part
of the Soviet Union proper,
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and start talking
about bringing in Ukraine.
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Which, all of a sudden,
if that were to happen,
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the NATO borders now
start to approximate
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the German front line
for most of the German invasion.
251
00:11:04,131 --> 00:11:06,033
- No buffer.
- Bingo.
252
00:11:06,099 --> 00:11:08,802
And so,
when you understand all of that,
253
00:11:08,869 --> 00:11:12,172
you begin to realize,
some of Putin's statements--
254
00:11:12,239 --> 00:11:13,373
I don't say...
255
00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:14,608
You begin
to understand why Putin
256
00:11:14,675 --> 00:11:16,777
has the perspective he has.
257
00:11:16,844 --> 00:11:19,046
- And well,
we could kind of guess
258
00:11:19,112 --> 00:11:21,849
as to whether
that's the, kind of...
259
00:11:21,915 --> 00:11:24,818
front line motive for Putin,
260
00:11:24,885 --> 00:11:27,754
or whether there's
a lot of ego involved
261
00:11:27,821 --> 00:11:30,390
in just rebuilding the empire.
262
00:11:30,457 --> 00:11:33,293
But contrast him
with Gorbachev, then,
263
00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,130
who, apparently, I mean,
from our standpoint in the West,
264
00:11:37,197 --> 00:11:39,399
allowed the dissolution
of the Soviet Union.
265
00:11:39,466 --> 00:11:42,503
Why would Gorbachev
be willing to dissolve it?
266
00:11:42,569 --> 00:11:45,239
He had the same--
actually more, I think,
267
00:11:45,305 --> 00:11:48,242
of a wartime experience
than Putin,
268
00:11:48,308 --> 00:11:51,144
who was born in 1952.
- Right.
269
00:11:51,211 --> 00:11:53,213
- How would you account
for the contrast
270
00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:54,948
between those two attitudes?
271
00:11:55,015 --> 00:11:56,383
- Gorbachev
lived through the war,
272
00:11:56,450 --> 00:11:59,186
but Gorbachev,
from everything that I've seen,
273
00:11:59,253 --> 00:12:01,722
Gorbachev made a calculation,
274
00:12:01,788 --> 00:12:04,258
and he realized--
He didn't just see
275
00:12:04,324 --> 00:12:05,592
through the prism of the war.
276
00:12:05,659 --> 00:12:07,794
He also looked at 1956,
277
00:12:08,562 --> 00:12:11,932
when the Soviets brutally
overthrew some peace movements,
278
00:12:11,999 --> 00:12:13,901
1953 in East Germany,
same thing.
279
00:12:13,967 --> 00:12:15,702
- Hungary in particular.
- Hungary, '56.
280
00:12:15,769 --> 00:12:17,538
There was also in Poland
at the same time.
281
00:12:17,604 --> 00:12:19,439
Most people don't realize that.
282
00:12:19,506 --> 00:12:20,774
And then, of course, '68,
283
00:12:20,841 --> 00:12:22,743
the brutal suppression
of Prague Spring.
284
00:12:22,809 --> 00:12:25,212
- Yes.
- And then, solidarity.
285
00:12:25,279 --> 00:12:26,980
And the police state
that, you know,
286
00:12:27,047 --> 00:12:31,151
it's becoming
increasingly clear that...
287
00:12:31,218 --> 00:12:33,620
The communists have
to grip tighter and tighter
288
00:12:33,687 --> 00:12:36,690
to keep the control
on their countries.
289
00:12:36,757 --> 00:12:39,426
And Gorbachev realized,
"I can either grip tighter
290
00:12:39,493 --> 00:12:41,428
"and start wading
through a sea of blood,
291
00:12:41,495 --> 00:12:45,666
"which makes me, puts me in
the category of Joseph Stalin,
292
00:12:45,732 --> 00:12:47,334
"or we can try to open up
293
00:12:47,401 --> 00:12:50,871
and try to let
some of the pressure out."
294
00:12:50,938 --> 00:12:54,041
And obviously, when he did that,
295
00:12:54,107 --> 00:12:56,844
a lot more--
And it just basically collapsed.
296
00:12:56,910 --> 00:12:58,745
The tensions
couldn't hold it together.
297
00:12:58,812 --> 00:13:01,715
- The differences between
Putin and Gorbachev
298
00:13:01,782 --> 00:13:03,750
seeming to be
that Putin wouldn't care
299
00:13:03,817 --> 00:13:06,286
if he were compared to Stalin.
300
00:13:06,353 --> 00:13:08,722
- Actually, he has glorified
the Second World War
301
00:13:08,789 --> 00:13:12,059
and has used the memory
of World War II,
302
00:13:12,125 --> 00:13:13,727
to-- and the propaganda--
303
00:13:13,794 --> 00:13:16,330
And I will admit, I have
some serious problems
304
00:13:16,396 --> 00:13:18,398
with how he interprets
World War II,
305
00:13:18,465 --> 00:13:20,300
but nonetheless, the creating it
306
00:13:20,367 --> 00:13:23,470
and actually analogizing
what they're doing in Ukraine
307
00:13:23,537 --> 00:13:25,205
to World War II.
308
00:13:26,874 --> 00:13:28,575
And it's, you...
309
00:13:28,642 --> 00:13:30,577
- It touches a nerve.
- It touches a nerve.
310
00:13:30,644 --> 00:13:32,579
But it also points up exactly
what we're talking about,
311
00:13:32,646 --> 00:13:34,648
about how 1945 is yesterday.
312
00:13:34,715 --> 00:13:37,784
And you got to understand
World War II and its aftermath
313
00:13:37,851 --> 00:13:40,287
to even begin to understand
314
00:13:40,354 --> 00:13:43,290
his thinking and his country's
thinking today.
315
00:13:43,357 --> 00:13:46,093
- Well, then,
let's go back to before,
316
00:13:46,159 --> 00:13:50,764
let's say, September 1, 1939,
and look at Europe.
317
00:13:50,831 --> 00:13:54,067
- So, Europe
in September of 1939 is
318
00:13:55,502 --> 00:13:57,437
a place that's teetering
on the balance.
319
00:13:57,504 --> 00:13:59,840
Hitler's taken power
in Nazi Germany
320
00:13:59,907 --> 00:14:01,341
and he's been expanding.
321
00:14:01,408 --> 00:14:04,878
He's annexed Austria,
he's annexed Czechoslovakia,
322
00:14:04,945 --> 00:14:06,647
and he's aiming at Poland.
323
00:14:06,713 --> 00:14:09,716
- Norman: This is all without
firing a shot so far.
324
00:14:09,783 --> 00:14:11,752
- Christopher: That's right,
that's right.
325
00:14:11,818 --> 00:14:13,153
And it's because of that
326
00:14:13,220 --> 00:14:15,355
he's becoming
increasingly emboldened.
327
00:14:15,422 --> 00:14:17,691
Six months after the annexation
of Czechoslovakia,
328
00:14:17,758 --> 00:14:18,859
which was in March,
329
00:14:18,926 --> 00:14:21,461
the final annexation
was in March of 1939,
330
00:14:21,528 --> 00:14:26,800
he decides to go after Poland,
and his big, big thing is the...
331
00:14:26,867 --> 00:14:28,502
If you look
at the border of Poland,
332
00:14:28,569 --> 00:14:29,903
you'll see
there's a little finger
333
00:14:29,970 --> 00:14:32,039
that extends up
to the Baltic Sea.
334
00:14:32,105 --> 00:14:34,341
That was actually there
for 500 years
335
00:14:34,408 --> 00:14:37,811
until the partition of Poland
in 1772.
336
00:14:37,878 --> 00:14:40,013
And so, when
they redrew Poland's map
337
00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:44,585
at Versailles in 1919,
they redrew the 1772 borders.
338
00:14:44,651 --> 00:14:46,887
But that didn't-- don't let
the facts get in the way...
339
00:14:46,954 --> 00:14:48,555
- Norman: Right.
- ...in the German chancellor--
340
00:14:48,622 --> 00:14:50,357
in Hitler's office.
341
00:14:50,424 --> 00:14:53,794
So, he decides to go after
Poland and invades Poland.
342
00:14:53,861 --> 00:14:57,664
And at that point,
it precipitates two things.
343
00:14:57,731 --> 00:15:00,467
Number one,
the British and the French
344
00:15:00,534 --> 00:15:02,936
go to war to protect Poland.
345
00:15:03,003 --> 00:15:05,472
- Because of treaties.
- Because of treaties.
346
00:15:05,539 --> 00:15:08,008
And the Germans have conducted
a treaty of their own,
347
00:15:08,075 --> 00:15:09,610
on August 23, 1939,
348
00:15:09,676 --> 00:15:12,946
a nonaggression pact
with the Soviet Union,
349
00:15:13,013 --> 00:15:15,516
which also includes
a secret clause
350
00:15:15,582 --> 00:15:17,718
that, once Poland
is overrun in six weeks,
351
00:15:17,784 --> 00:15:20,420
they will activate, which is
the fourth partition of Poland
352
00:15:20,487 --> 00:15:22,923
to cut Poland down the middle.
353
00:15:22,990 --> 00:15:25,692
The border that was drawn
in 1939
354
00:15:25,759 --> 00:15:28,862
is, today,
the eastern border of Poland.
355
00:15:28,929 --> 00:15:31,698
So, all that land that was given
to the Soviet Union
356
00:15:31,765 --> 00:15:34,635
is, today, either part
of Belarus or Ukraine,
357
00:15:34,701 --> 00:15:36,570
and some of it's Lithuania.
358
00:15:36,637 --> 00:15:39,439
- You could argue
that those borders, of course,
359
00:15:39,506 --> 00:15:41,575
witness, you know,
1772 or whatever,
360
00:15:41,642 --> 00:15:44,611
have been shifting around a lot
over the centuries, anyway.
361
00:15:44,678 --> 00:15:49,283
- Right, the borders of Europe
start moving in 1939, again.
362
00:15:49,349 --> 00:15:51,285
They move, you're right,
they move in fits and starts
363
00:15:51,351 --> 00:15:52,653
all through European history.
364
00:15:52,719 --> 00:15:57,057
The latest of that sequence
starts in September of 1939.
365
00:15:57,124 --> 00:15:59,793
And when the borders of Europe
stop moving,
366
00:15:59,860 --> 00:16:01,995
we get the modern map
that we have,
367
00:16:02,062 --> 00:16:03,564
and they don't
really stop moving
368
00:16:03,630 --> 00:16:06,567
until you get the final breakup
of Yugoslavia
369
00:16:06,633 --> 00:16:08,302
in the 1990s.
370
00:16:08,602 --> 00:16:10,537
But that also,
that does two things
371
00:16:10,604 --> 00:16:11,939
that we need to think
about today.
372
00:16:12,005 --> 00:16:14,107
Number one, it sets a precedent
373
00:16:14,174 --> 00:16:15,876
for what's gonna happen
after the war.
374
00:16:15,943 --> 00:16:18,512
More borders will move
because of force,
375
00:16:18,579 --> 00:16:22,316
but it also creates a desire
to codify in international law.
376
00:16:22,382 --> 00:16:25,919
And you see it in the
negotiations over Ukraine,
377
00:16:25,986 --> 00:16:28,021
where one of the big issues
is, you know,
378
00:16:28,088 --> 00:16:31,692
do we really wanna move borders
as a result of force?
379
00:16:31,758 --> 00:16:34,628
- Even if you can do it
relatively successfully,
380
00:16:34,695 --> 00:16:36,964
it sets a precedent.
- Right.
381
00:16:37,030 --> 00:16:40,601
And it all goes back
to September 1939.
382
00:16:41,802 --> 00:16:44,805
A lot of the international laws
that were put in place,
383
00:16:44,872 --> 00:16:46,373
the United Nations, for example,
384
00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:48,542
and the Geneva Conventions
in 1949,
385
00:16:48,609 --> 00:16:53,480
are a direct reaction to
World War II and its conduct.
386
00:16:53,547 --> 00:16:56,683
- So, we're looking
at colonial powers there,
387
00:16:56,750 --> 00:17:00,320
Britain, France,
Belgium, and Italy.
388
00:17:01,355 --> 00:17:02,456
- Yep.
389
00:17:02,523 --> 00:17:06,693
- And before '39,
Italy was already on the move,
390
00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,663
colonizing
parts of North Africa.
391
00:17:09,730 --> 00:17:11,665
- They were making
a lot of trouble
392
00:17:11,732 --> 00:17:14,034
down in the Mediterranean,
absolutely right.
393
00:17:14,101 --> 00:17:15,669
- And the Britons, the Brits,
394
00:17:15,736 --> 00:17:17,604
already had
big chunks of Africa,
395
00:17:17,671 --> 00:17:20,841
and of course, the French, also,
and the Belgian Congo and so on.
396
00:17:20,908 --> 00:17:22,176
- By the way, Hitler believes
397
00:17:22,242 --> 00:17:23,844
he's building
a new German empire.
398
00:17:23,911 --> 00:17:27,181
Reich, Third Reich,
translates as empire.
399
00:17:27,247 --> 00:17:30,050
And actually, some of the
German, the Nazi politicians,
400
00:17:30,117 --> 00:17:34,288
referred to Poland,
but especially the Soviet Union,
401
00:17:34,354 --> 00:17:36,023
as "our India."
402
00:17:36,356 --> 00:17:40,127
"We want to take control of it
and we want to make it our...
403
00:17:40,194 --> 00:17:42,362
what India is to the British."
404
00:17:42,429 --> 00:17:45,499
- It's a strange thing
to say, but...
405
00:17:45,566 --> 00:17:48,402
colonizing was fashionable.
- Yeah.
406
00:17:48,468 --> 00:17:49,903
- Empire building
was fashionable.
407
00:17:49,970 --> 00:17:51,071
- Very much.
408
00:17:51,138 --> 00:17:52,973
- I mean, even
Theodore Roosevelt, you know,
409
00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,243
America is not above
that empire building.
410
00:17:56,310 --> 00:17:57,511
The Philippines, Caribbean...
411
00:17:57,578 --> 00:17:59,513
- We have our own empire
in the Philippines, exactly.
412
00:17:59,580 --> 00:18:01,615
Yep.
- Even some Germans would say,
413
00:18:01,682 --> 00:18:03,851
"Well, war is
an honorable pursuit.
414
00:18:03,917 --> 00:18:07,054
And what we can get by war
is ours."
415
00:18:07,788 --> 00:18:08,889
- Christopher:
Right of conquest.
416
00:18:08,956 --> 00:18:10,757
- Yes.
- And it's...
417
00:18:12,759 --> 00:18:15,229
That precipitates
a lot of things.
418
00:18:15,295 --> 00:18:20,000
And when you accept that
as part of your philosophy,
419
00:18:20,067 --> 00:18:22,069
it leads to a lot of...
420
00:18:22,603 --> 00:18:24,137
It leads to a lot of blood
421
00:18:24,204 --> 00:18:26,273
and it leads
to a lot of atrocity,
422
00:18:26,340 --> 00:18:29,910
as you see in the history
of World War II in Europe.
423
00:18:29,977 --> 00:18:31,912
And it took the combined forces
424
00:18:31,979 --> 00:18:35,082
of the United States, Britain,
the Soviet Union,
425
00:18:35,148 --> 00:18:37,885
and a variety of other allies
426
00:18:37,951 --> 00:18:41,655
to ultimately crush
Nazi Germany in 1945.
427
00:18:41,722 --> 00:18:43,390
And...
428
00:18:44,091 --> 00:18:45,692
One of the things
that you'll see
429
00:18:45,759 --> 00:18:50,130
is the way that they set it up,
in contrast to World War I,
430
00:18:50,197 --> 00:18:52,566
the way they set it up
is the four powers,
431
00:18:52,633 --> 00:18:53,734
Britain, France,
the United States,
432
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,603
and the Soviets,
will occupy Germany
433
00:18:56,670 --> 00:19:02,910
and they will also move borders
and expel millions of Germans.
434
00:19:02,976 --> 00:19:05,245
Because one of the arguments
that Hitler had made
435
00:19:05,312 --> 00:19:08,148
is, you know, there are
ethnic German minorities
436
00:19:08,215 --> 00:19:10,050
in all these countries.
- Yes.
437
00:19:10,117 --> 00:19:12,653
So, we should control them.
- Right.
438
00:19:12,719 --> 00:19:14,454
And so, well, we're
not gonna do that anymore.
439
00:19:14,521 --> 00:19:15,956
We're gonna expel them,
440
00:19:16,023 --> 00:19:18,859
and we're going to put them
all in Germany
441
00:19:18,926 --> 00:19:22,729
and make these states
to be very, very homogenous.
442
00:19:22,796 --> 00:19:25,032
And so, you get a lot
of population transfers,
443
00:19:25,098 --> 00:19:27,701
and then you get others, quite
frankly, like my grandfather,
444
00:19:27,768 --> 00:19:30,370
who was in the Polish Army
in 1939,
445
00:19:30,437 --> 00:19:32,172
spent two and a half years
in the Gulag,
446
00:19:32,239 --> 00:19:33,574
ended up in London
during the war
447
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:35,776
with the free Poles,
and at the end of the war,
448
00:19:35,843 --> 00:19:37,177
didn't wanna go live
under the communists,
449
00:19:37,244 --> 00:19:38,779
so ended up here
in the United States.
450
00:19:38,846 --> 00:19:42,082
So, there's this massive
population transfer
451
00:19:42,149 --> 00:19:45,552
that, for a variety of reasons,
occurs in eastern Europe.
452
00:19:45,619 --> 00:19:48,088
And also, the borders
of Europe move as well.
453
00:19:48,155 --> 00:19:50,457
If you look at--
you compare the map,
454
00:19:50,524 --> 00:19:54,261
that we're looking at right now
to the map we had before,
455
00:19:54,328 --> 00:19:56,530
you'll see
how Poland has changed,
456
00:19:56,597 --> 00:19:58,532
but you'll also see
how the Soviet Union itself
457
00:19:58,599 --> 00:19:59,967
has moved west.
458
00:20:00,033 --> 00:20:02,536
And I direct your attention
to East Prussia,
459
00:20:02,603 --> 00:20:04,705
which is that little red glob
460
00:20:04,771 --> 00:20:07,307
right at the northern
top of Poland there
461
00:20:07,374 --> 00:20:09,376
that's split in half.
462
00:20:09,877 --> 00:20:12,913
The northern half
went to the Soviet Union.
463
00:20:12,980 --> 00:20:14,114
And the reason
they wanted that
464
00:20:14,181 --> 00:20:17,150
is because Joseph Stalin
wanted a warm water,
465
00:20:17,217 --> 00:20:18,986
all ice-free port all year.
466
00:20:19,052 --> 00:20:21,054
- Norman: The Russians
have always longed
467
00:20:21,121 --> 00:20:23,357
for being more European.
468
00:20:23,423 --> 00:20:25,158
- Christopher: That's right.
469
00:20:25,225 --> 00:20:27,561
After the fall
of the Soviet Union,
470
00:20:27,628 --> 00:20:29,863
that enclave is still Russian.
471
00:20:29,930 --> 00:20:31,665
If you look at a map
of Russia today,
472
00:20:31,732 --> 00:20:33,800
it's known
as the Kaliningrad Enclave.
473
00:20:33,867 --> 00:20:35,202
- Yes, it's just, as you say,
474
00:20:35,269 --> 00:20:37,304
that little finger
going up to the Baltic.
475
00:20:37,371 --> 00:20:40,274
- Bingo, and it's still there.
476
00:20:40,340 --> 00:20:43,510
It's packed with all kinds
of troops and defenses,
477
00:20:43,577 --> 00:20:46,013
and it's surrounded
by NATO territory,
478
00:20:46,079 --> 00:20:47,514
but it's there.
479
00:20:47,581 --> 00:20:50,584
And just like East Prussia was
for the Germans,
480
00:20:50,651 --> 00:20:54,254
kind of that European,
eastern European outpost,
481
00:20:54,321 --> 00:20:56,223
this is for the Russians.
482
00:20:56,290 --> 00:20:58,859
But it's still a geopolitical,
geostrategic fact.
483
00:20:58,926 --> 00:21:00,661
And it's right there.
484
00:21:00,727 --> 00:21:03,063
You know, people look at that
and say, "Oh, what is that?
485
00:21:03,130 --> 00:21:04,364
How did that come to be?"
486
00:21:04,431 --> 00:21:07,634
It came out of 1945,
World War II and its aftermath.
487
00:21:07,701 --> 00:21:08,836
- It's interesting what you said
488
00:21:08,902 --> 00:21:11,972
about relocating
Germans and Czechs,
489
00:21:12,039 --> 00:21:16,777
and there were a number of--
well, and Poles, also,
490
00:21:16,844 --> 00:21:21,949
the distinction between
nationality and nationalism.
491
00:21:22,015 --> 00:21:25,485
In other words,
a lot of those Germans
492
00:21:26,086 --> 00:21:28,956
may have been happier
not moving back to Germany,
493
00:21:29,022 --> 00:21:32,926
you know,
given that they were already...
494
00:21:34,161 --> 00:21:38,232
comfortable, incorporated
into other nation states.
495
00:21:38,298 --> 00:21:41,034
- Well, a good example of that
is the Germans that are,
496
00:21:41,101 --> 00:21:45,038
the ethnic Germans that are
expelled from Czechoslovakia.
497
00:21:45,105 --> 00:21:46,907
They were actually
part of the Austrian Empire.
498
00:21:46,974 --> 00:21:49,576
They had never been
citizens of Germany,
499
00:21:49,643 --> 00:21:51,178
and they were part
of the Austrian Empire
500
00:21:51,245 --> 00:21:54,715
until Czechoslovakia
became independent in 1919.
501
00:21:54,781 --> 00:21:56,717
And so, they lived
under the Czechs.
502
00:21:56,783 --> 00:21:58,318
And when they were
expelled to Germany,
503
00:21:58,385 --> 00:22:00,320
most of them didn't really,
504
00:22:00,387 --> 00:22:02,489
you know,
didn't feel any alliance.
505
00:22:02,556 --> 00:22:03,957
Most of them pined to go home.
506
00:22:04,024 --> 00:22:05,759
Of course, they were
never gonna go back home.
507
00:22:05,826 --> 00:22:08,695
- Well, think about
Germans in this country.
508
00:22:08,762 --> 00:22:11,431
They would not have wanted
to be deported to Germany.
509
00:22:11,498 --> 00:22:12,599
- That's right.
510
00:22:12,666 --> 00:22:14,401
- Obviously, they came
over here for a reason.
511
00:22:14,468 --> 00:22:16,203
- Yeah, that's right.
- Same for any other,
512
00:22:16,270 --> 00:22:18,338
you know, Irish,
or any other nationality
513
00:22:18,405 --> 00:22:20,207
that you want to pick.
- Christopher: Exactly.
514
00:22:20,274 --> 00:22:23,043
- We have some traveling to do
now that we've looked at Europe.
515
00:22:23,110 --> 00:22:25,112
- Sure.
- And these repercussions
516
00:22:25,179 --> 00:22:28,282
that we're talking about
at the end of World War II,
517
00:22:28,348 --> 00:22:30,584
definitely global
because of these colonies
518
00:22:30,651 --> 00:22:32,819
that we've talked about.
- Christopher: Right.
519
00:22:32,886 --> 00:22:34,688
- And one of the ones
520
00:22:35,355 --> 00:22:36,857
in the news
practically every day
521
00:22:36,924 --> 00:22:41,094
and has been, ever since 1948,
at least, is Palestine,
522
00:22:41,161 --> 00:22:43,997
Israel,
that part of the Middle East.
523
00:22:44,064 --> 00:22:46,266
- So, the map
of the modern Middle East
524
00:22:46,333 --> 00:22:48,502
starts with the destruction
of the Ottoman Empire
525
00:22:48,569 --> 00:22:52,506
at the end of World War I,
to continue with our theme here.
526
00:22:52,573 --> 00:22:54,908
And the British
and the French drew it
527
00:22:54,975 --> 00:22:56,577
in such a way
to serve their interests.
528
00:22:56,643 --> 00:22:59,079
They didn't know
the Arabian Peninsula had oil.
529
00:22:59,146 --> 00:23:01,048
It wasn't discovered
until the 1920s.
530
00:23:01,114 --> 00:23:03,817
And by then, from their
perspective, it was too late.
531
00:23:03,884 --> 00:23:07,354
But the British also accept
a mandate for Palestine,
532
00:23:07,421 --> 00:23:09,790
and they create
a land route to India
533
00:23:09,857 --> 00:23:11,825
from Haifa across to Basra.
534
00:23:11,892 --> 00:23:13,627
That's why Iraq
is shaped the way it is
535
00:23:13,694 --> 00:23:15,462
and Jordan is shaped
the way it is.
536
00:23:15,529 --> 00:23:17,331
So, the British would
always have that
537
00:23:17,397 --> 00:23:20,701
in case the Suez Canal
ever got closed.
538
00:23:20,767 --> 00:23:24,771
But the British, at the end
of the Second World War,
539
00:23:24,838 --> 00:23:27,641
particularly
as Jews are coming from Europe,
540
00:23:27,708 --> 00:23:30,844
Holocaust survivors are coming
in increasing numbers
541
00:23:30,911 --> 00:23:32,579
to Palestine,
542
00:23:33,447 --> 00:23:36,250
the British realize
they can't, they have--
543
00:23:36,316 --> 00:23:38,252
To use the analogy we used
earlier with the Soviets,
544
00:23:38,318 --> 00:23:41,889
they've got a lid
on a pressure cooker
545
00:23:41,955 --> 00:23:43,190
that is just building.
546
00:23:43,257 --> 00:23:47,160
- The enmity between the
Palestinians and the Israelis
547
00:23:47,227 --> 00:23:50,864
or the Jews.
- The Jews, right, and...
548
00:23:50,931 --> 00:23:55,802
They were given a mandate
to kind of protect the area
549
00:23:55,869 --> 00:23:57,604
after World War I,
550
00:23:57,671 --> 00:24:00,274
and they said, "Our mandate
is almost over.
551
00:24:00,340 --> 00:24:01,775
We can't keep this."
552
00:24:01,842 --> 00:24:03,911
So, they go to the U.N.
553
00:24:03,977 --> 00:24:07,181
and try
and negotiate a partition,
554
00:24:07,247 --> 00:24:09,516
and you'll see that word again
with some other places.
555
00:24:09,583 --> 00:24:12,519
It's a fairly popular thing
in the late '40s,
556
00:24:12,586 --> 00:24:14,988
to try and negotiate
a partition,
557
00:24:15,055 --> 00:24:18,025
which one side accepts,
and one side does not,
558
00:24:18,091 --> 00:24:19,860
precipitates what becomes
559
00:24:19,927 --> 00:24:22,329
the Israeli War of Independence
in 1948,
560
00:24:22,396 --> 00:24:26,066
and then every Arab-Israeli
conflict ever since.
561
00:24:26,133 --> 00:24:29,870
But it comes out of that
post-World War II.
562
00:24:29,937 --> 00:24:31,672
And then, if you look at the,
563
00:24:31,738 --> 00:24:34,241
you know,
Yad Vashem in Jerusalem
564
00:24:34,308 --> 00:24:36,343
and what it means
for the memory of the Holocaust
565
00:24:36,410 --> 00:24:38,445
and what the Holocaust means
566
00:24:38,512 --> 00:24:42,449
in the national identity
of Israel today,
567
00:24:42,516 --> 00:24:44,084
you know,
that's another nation where,
568
00:24:44,151 --> 00:24:48,188
to understand what it is,
who they're about,
569
00:24:48,255 --> 00:24:50,891
you have to understand
the experiences of World War II
570
00:24:50,958 --> 00:24:52,793
and its immediate aftermath.
571
00:24:52,860 --> 00:24:55,929
- Well, the Jews had been there
since time immemorial,
572
00:24:55,996 --> 00:24:57,965
as the Palestinians had been.
- Correct.
573
00:24:58,031 --> 00:25:00,868
- The Jews had the diaspora,
which lasted
574
00:25:00,934 --> 00:25:03,804
a couple thousand years.
- Christopher: Right.
575
00:25:03,871 --> 00:25:07,241
And have gone through
this horrific genocide
576
00:25:07,307 --> 00:25:10,944
during World War II,
6 million, roughly,
577
00:25:11,011 --> 00:25:16,350
Jews killed during World War II,
which, to a great extent,
578
00:25:20,621 --> 00:25:24,157
meant that there was
a lot of sympathy for the Jews.
579
00:25:24,224 --> 00:25:26,527
- There's some evidence
that a lot of people
580
00:25:26,593 --> 00:25:28,395
wanted to give them Israel.
581
00:25:28,462 --> 00:25:30,397
- Norman: Give them
the homeland.
582
00:25:30,464 --> 00:25:34,034
- Give them the homeland,
as a way to...
583
00:25:34,735 --> 00:25:36,270
I don't wanna use
the word "atone,"
584
00:25:36,336 --> 00:25:38,005
but as a way to...
585
00:25:41,008 --> 00:25:42,843
What's the word
I'm looking for here?
586
00:25:42,910 --> 00:25:44,478
- Accommodate.
- Yeah.
587
00:25:44,545 --> 00:25:47,681
That's a good way to put it,
that's a good way to put it.
588
00:25:47,748 --> 00:25:50,117
And of course,
the Palestinians in the area...
589
00:25:50,184 --> 00:25:52,119
- Didn't have
much say-so in that.
590
00:25:52,186 --> 00:25:53,287
- No, they didn't.
591
00:25:53,353 --> 00:25:56,190
And I understand that side too.
592
00:25:56,256 --> 00:25:57,357
You know, it's...
593
00:25:57,424 --> 00:25:58,959
- They've been there
for thousands of years.
594
00:25:59,026 --> 00:26:01,361
- And that's a population that,
a lot of them got displaced
595
00:26:01,428 --> 00:26:02,596
into neighboring countries
596
00:26:02,663 --> 00:26:05,933
and still are displaced
to this day.
597
00:26:05,999 --> 00:26:09,837
And the right of return
remains a big sticking point
598
00:26:09,903 --> 00:26:13,473
in any negotiations between the
Israelis and the Palestinians.
599
00:26:13,540 --> 00:26:15,809
Again, all of these issues
600
00:26:15,876 --> 00:26:17,477
come right
out of those decisions,
601
00:26:17,544 --> 00:26:20,714
'45 through '48, '49 time frame.
602
00:26:20,781 --> 00:26:22,449
- Norman: So...
603
00:26:22,516 --> 00:26:25,485
Israel goes,
what we call Israel today,
604
00:26:25,552 --> 00:26:27,988
goes from being,
was it a protectorate?
605
00:26:28,055 --> 00:26:30,290
Not exactly a colony...
606
00:26:30,657 --> 00:26:32,192
What was it?
- It was a protectorate.
607
00:26:32,259 --> 00:26:33,594
- It was a protectorate?
- Yeah.
608
00:26:33,660 --> 00:26:34,795
- It goes from that status,
609
00:26:34,862 --> 00:26:37,998
which is pointing
toward colonialism.
610
00:26:38,065 --> 00:26:40,067
- Yeah, it's one foot--
611
00:26:40,133 --> 00:26:41,401
It's not completely a colony,
612
00:26:41,468 --> 00:26:43,070
but it's got one foot
in that direction.
613
00:26:43,136 --> 00:26:47,174
- It goes from that status
to independence in 1948.
614
00:26:47,241 --> 00:26:49,443
- Right.
- And that's,
615
00:26:50,477 --> 00:26:53,213
as they say, a story that's
still very much with us today.
616
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,883
- Absolutely, absolutely.
617
00:26:55,949 --> 00:27:00,153
- Well, that leaves us
a lot of southeast Asia
618
00:27:00,220 --> 00:27:02,256
and other parts of Asia
to look at too.
619
00:27:02,322 --> 00:27:04,157
Colonies there that,
probably, most of us
620
00:27:04,224 --> 00:27:06,693
were barely even aware of.
621
00:27:07,027 --> 00:27:09,029
- So, southeast Asia,
622
00:27:09,630 --> 00:27:11,932
and this is another area that's
very much in our headlines.
623
00:27:11,999 --> 00:27:15,836
In fact, I would argue that
most of the conflicts in Asia
624
00:27:15,903 --> 00:27:19,239
have their roots in some way in
World War II and its aftermath.
625
00:27:19,306 --> 00:27:21,041
You know, the map
we're looking at right now
626
00:27:21,108 --> 00:27:22,643
is Asia in 1941,
627
00:27:22,709 --> 00:27:25,679
right before Japan
attacks Pearl Harbor.
628
00:27:25,746 --> 00:27:28,448
And you'll notice
the various colonial powers,
629
00:27:28,515 --> 00:27:31,351
particularly in the
southwestern part of the map,
630
00:27:31,418 --> 00:27:32,686
the French in Indochina,
631
00:27:32,753 --> 00:27:34,755
which, today, is Vietnam,
Laos, and Cambodia,
632
00:27:34,821 --> 00:27:37,624
the Dutch East Indies,
which, today, is Indonesia,
633
00:27:37,691 --> 00:27:40,827
British Malaya,
British Burma, British India,
634
00:27:40,894 --> 00:27:42,596
Australia, New Zealand,
and then, of course,
635
00:27:42,663 --> 00:27:44,431
the United States
and the Philippines.
636
00:27:44,498 --> 00:27:46,033
- Norman: Yeah,
when you think about it,
637
00:27:46,099 --> 00:27:47,634
you throw in, yes,
Australia and New Zealand,
638
00:27:47,701 --> 00:27:49,503
also colonies at one point.
639
00:27:49,570 --> 00:27:53,140
Obviously, long before the time
we're talking about here.
640
00:27:53,207 --> 00:27:55,642
But yeah, all of that area.
641
00:27:55,709 --> 00:27:57,244
- Christopher: They're parts
of the British Empire,
642
00:27:57,311 --> 00:28:00,280
as is Canada on this map.
- Norman: Sure, yeah, right.
643
00:28:00,347 --> 00:28:02,916
Hard to believe, isn't it?
- Christopher: Yeah, I know.
644
00:28:02,983 --> 00:28:05,886
Japan, when they attack, one
of the things Japan wants to do,
645
00:28:05,953 --> 00:28:08,055
they've been fighting a war
in China since 1939.
646
00:28:08,121 --> 00:28:11,892
That's that big red splotch that
you see in northeastern China.
647
00:28:11,959 --> 00:28:13,360
And it's been bogged down.
648
00:28:13,427 --> 00:28:16,763
And to seize the resources that
they need to continue the war,
649
00:28:16,830 --> 00:28:18,966
they attack south,
to the Philippines,
650
00:28:19,032 --> 00:28:21,401
to all the places I just named,
651
00:28:21,468 --> 00:28:24,104
and they conquer them
in about six months.
652
00:28:24,171 --> 00:28:26,773
- Norman: Yeah, quite quickly,
they just fold like cards.
653
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:28,475
- Christopher: Yeah, they fold,
yeah.
654
00:28:28,542 --> 00:28:31,211
And basically, conquer
most of what you see
655
00:28:31,278 --> 00:28:34,181
on the map west
of the International Date Line.
656
00:28:34,248 --> 00:28:37,818
It's a huge loss of prestige
for these empires.
657
00:28:37,885 --> 00:28:39,786
The British suffer
the greatest surrender,
658
00:28:39,853 --> 00:28:41,788
the greatest defeat in the
history of the British Army
659
00:28:41,855 --> 00:28:43,724
at Singapore
in February of 1942.
660
00:28:43,790 --> 00:28:45,726
I actually had ancestors
get captured there.
661
00:28:45,792 --> 00:28:48,662
- It was apparently
very poorly defended.
662
00:28:48,729 --> 00:28:52,266
- It was very poorly defended,
very poorly led.
663
00:28:52,332 --> 00:28:55,669
And come to find out,
after the war,
664
00:28:55,736 --> 00:28:59,473
30,000 Japanese
captured 90,000 British,
665
00:28:59,540 --> 00:29:02,509
Indian, and Australian troops
on that island.
666
00:29:02,576 --> 00:29:06,046
So, you can imagine
the absolute humiliation.
667
00:29:06,113 --> 00:29:08,348
The other thing that it does
is the Japanese create
668
00:29:08,415 --> 00:29:12,786
what they call the Greater
East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere.
669
00:29:12,853 --> 00:29:15,055
In reality, it's a way
to organize all these countries
670
00:29:15,122 --> 00:29:17,057
so that they feed
the Japanese war effort.
671
00:29:17,124 --> 00:29:19,326
But one of the things
that they do
672
00:29:19,393 --> 00:29:23,730
is they give each country
a puppet government.
673
00:29:23,797 --> 00:29:27,134
So, for the first time,
you get these former colonies
674
00:29:27,201 --> 00:29:29,536
that glimpse self-rule.
675
00:29:30,971 --> 00:29:34,508
Aung San Suu Kyi of Burma,
who I know has been in the news,
676
00:29:34,575 --> 00:29:36,810
her father was
in the puppet government
677
00:29:36,877 --> 00:29:39,246
the Japanese set up in Burma.
678
00:29:39,313 --> 00:29:42,015
That's one of the ways
the family got so prominent.
679
00:29:42,082 --> 00:29:43,617
- That became Myanmar,
ultimately.
680
00:29:43,684 --> 00:29:45,786
- Yeah, it's also
known as Myanmar.
681
00:29:45,853 --> 00:29:49,656
So, Japan obviously
is defeated in 1945.
682
00:29:51,258 --> 00:29:53,560
Some of these colonial powers
try to come back
683
00:29:53,627 --> 00:29:55,295
and try and reset the clock,
684
00:29:55,362 --> 00:29:58,565
the British, the French,
the Dutch in particular.
685
00:29:58,632 --> 00:30:00,467
The United States
is not part of that
686
00:30:00,534 --> 00:30:03,203
because the United States had
actually promised in the 1930s
687
00:30:03,270 --> 00:30:05,873
that we were gonna give our
independence to the Philippines
688
00:30:05,939 --> 00:30:07,841
on July 4, 1946.
- We did, in '46.
689
00:30:07,908 --> 00:30:09,910
- We kept that promise.
690
00:30:09,977 --> 00:30:11,745
And also, Douglas MacArthur,
691
00:30:11,812 --> 00:30:13,847
when he left the Philippines,
said, "I shall return."
692
00:30:13,914 --> 00:30:16,583
And he kept that promise too.
693
00:30:17,751 --> 00:30:19,887
We weren't part of that.
694
00:30:19,953 --> 00:30:21,121
But that idea of coming back
695
00:30:21,188 --> 00:30:22,990
and being able
to turn back the clock
696
00:30:23,056 --> 00:30:25,492
precipitates a lot of conflicts.
697
00:30:25,559 --> 00:30:27,961
The Indonesians fight
a war of independence,
698
00:30:28,028 --> 00:30:30,264
very bloody war of independence,
for four years,
699
00:30:30,330 --> 00:30:32,132
from 1945 to 1949,
700
00:30:32,199 --> 00:30:35,969
before the Dutch finally
quit and go home.
701
00:30:36,036 --> 00:30:39,006
The British-- we can talk about
India and the partition
702
00:30:39,072 --> 00:30:40,741
and what happens there.
703
00:30:40,807 --> 00:30:42,509
Just incredibly bloody.
704
00:30:42,576 --> 00:30:45,412
And the British realize
shortly after World War II,
705
00:30:45,479 --> 00:30:47,881
not only
can't we hold the Middle East,
706
00:30:47,948 --> 00:30:49,783
we can't hold
the Eastern Empire.
707
00:30:49,850 --> 00:30:52,252
And so, Myanmar becomes Burma
at the time,
708
00:30:52,319 --> 00:30:53,887
becomes independent in 1948.
709
00:30:53,954 --> 00:30:57,391
Sri Lanka, Ceylon at the time,
independent in 1948.
710
00:30:57,457 --> 00:31:00,027
You start looking at all these--
Malaya in the '50s.
711
00:31:00,093 --> 00:31:03,864
You know, these dominoes
begin to fall very quickly.
712
00:31:03,931 --> 00:31:05,732
One of the empires
that tries the hardest
713
00:31:05,799 --> 00:31:09,670
to hang on to their colonies
is the French.
714
00:31:09,736 --> 00:31:12,639
And that precipitates
the first Indochina War,
715
00:31:12,706 --> 00:31:15,509
which ends at Dien Bien Phu
in 1954.
716
00:31:15,576 --> 00:31:17,744
- And then, they needed
somebody to take over.
717
00:31:17,811 --> 00:31:19,947
- It's funny you mention that
because one of the things
718
00:31:20,013 --> 00:31:22,916
in my recent research
I discovered is, by 1954,
719
00:31:22,983 --> 00:31:26,153
the United States
was paying 80% of the bills
720
00:31:26,220 --> 00:31:28,789
for the French
to fight that war.
721
00:31:28,856 --> 00:31:30,858
- I mean, in this case,
722
00:31:31,758 --> 00:31:35,662
is it all really
the domino theory that...
723
00:31:37,030 --> 00:31:38,932
I realize it became
even more of a thing
724
00:31:38,999 --> 00:31:41,935
by the time we got into the
later '50s and into the '60s,
725
00:31:42,002 --> 00:31:47,241
but the idea that, "Well,
as French Indochina/Vietnam,
726
00:31:48,075 --> 00:31:51,979
"Cambodia, Laos falls to the
Chinese, presumably,
727
00:31:52,045 --> 00:31:54,214
"so might
the rest of Southeast Asia
728
00:31:54,281 --> 00:31:58,118
right on down to and
perhaps including Australia."
729
00:31:58,185 --> 00:31:59,720
- I'll give you
two thoughts on that.
730
00:31:59,786 --> 00:32:01,021
Number one, that goes back--
731
00:32:01,088 --> 00:32:03,357
That's why I started this
discussion with the Cold War,
732
00:32:03,423 --> 00:32:05,025
is because that conflict,
733
00:32:05,092 --> 00:32:08,495
and I would argue even
the American period in Vietnam,
734
00:32:08,562 --> 00:32:10,497
is all viewed through
the prism of the Cold War.
735
00:32:10,564 --> 00:32:12,065
It's a fight against
the communists.
736
00:32:12,132 --> 00:32:14,101
So, that's the first part.
737
00:32:14,168 --> 00:32:18,038
The second part is there's
something to that, because,
738
00:32:18,105 --> 00:32:19,873
that domino theory.
739
00:32:19,940 --> 00:32:21,875
Because in 1940,
after France fell,
740
00:32:21,942 --> 00:32:23,944
the Japanese
moved into northern Indochina,
741
00:32:24,011 --> 00:32:25,779
occupied the northern half,
742
00:32:25,846 --> 00:32:28,282
summer 1941,
they occupied the southern half.
743
00:32:28,348 --> 00:32:31,818
That then became
one of the major springboards
744
00:32:31,885 --> 00:32:37,424
for their attacks into the rest
of Asia during World War II.
745
00:32:37,491 --> 00:32:38,992
And when...
746
00:32:39,059 --> 00:32:40,460
Who's running the United States?
747
00:32:40,527 --> 00:32:42,829
Who's running--
Who's the world leaders?
748
00:32:42,896 --> 00:32:46,567
People like Dwight Eisenhower
and people who had been...
749
00:32:46,633 --> 00:32:49,169
- World War II experience, yeah.
- ...had fought in World War II.
750
00:32:49,236 --> 00:32:51,171
- Right, and so, they look
at that and say,
751
00:32:51,238 --> 00:32:54,241
"Well, the communists are trying
to run the same playbook."
752
00:32:54,308 --> 00:32:56,243
- As the Japanese?
- As the Japanese did.
753
00:32:56,310 --> 00:32:58,345
And they're trying
to do exactly the same thing,
754
00:32:58,412 --> 00:32:59,913
just ten years later.
755
00:32:59,980 --> 00:33:03,183
Ten, fifteen years later
at this point.
756
00:33:03,250 --> 00:33:04,918
And so, when you realize that,
757
00:33:04,985 --> 00:33:06,954
you know, we look
at these historical events
758
00:33:07,020 --> 00:33:09,022
as discrete events,
759
00:33:09,089 --> 00:33:11,992
but never forget that they're
all part of a continuum.
760
00:33:12,059 --> 00:33:16,430
You know, when Eisenhower
is president in the 1950s,
761
00:33:16,496 --> 00:33:17,764
his view of the world,
762
00:33:17,831 --> 00:33:20,934
his view of how to approach
strategic issues
763
00:33:21,001 --> 00:33:22,769
and security issues
764
00:33:22,836 --> 00:33:26,240
is informed by
General Eisenhower of the 1940s.
765
00:33:26,306 --> 00:33:28,141
- Sure, and why build
an interstate system?
766
00:33:28,208 --> 00:33:30,143
It's so that you could
land planes
767
00:33:30,210 --> 00:33:33,981
or move military material
more quickly in this country.
768
00:33:34,047 --> 00:33:35,716
- Exactly.
769
00:33:36,650 --> 00:33:41,622
- There's a famous conversation
between Robert McNamara,
770
00:33:41,688 --> 00:33:44,958
who was one of the proponents
of the domino theory
771
00:33:45,025 --> 00:33:47,494
during the Kennedy
and Johnson administrations
772
00:33:47,561 --> 00:33:50,898
and ambassador
from North Vietnam,
773
00:33:52,900 --> 00:33:55,502
formerly North Vietnam,
who said, "Mr. Secretary,
774
00:33:55,569 --> 00:33:58,005
"did you really think
we were gonna let China
775
00:33:58,071 --> 00:33:59,373
"come into Vietnam?
776
00:33:59,439 --> 00:34:02,643
We've been fighting the Chinese
for a thousand years."
777
00:34:02,709 --> 00:34:06,914
Were those domino theorists
really that far off?
778
00:34:06,980 --> 00:34:09,249
That-- Again,
we're getting into nationalism,
779
00:34:09,316 --> 00:34:11,218
post-colonialism.
780
00:34:11,818 --> 00:34:14,788
Would the Chinese
have been dissuaded
781
00:34:14,855 --> 00:34:17,624
from going farther south
because of the nationalism,
782
00:34:17,691 --> 00:34:19,760
rising nationalism
of these former colonies?
783
00:34:19,826 --> 00:34:21,795
- This is a whole talk
in itself.
784
00:34:21,862 --> 00:34:23,397
This is a whole other episode
in itself.
785
00:34:23,463 --> 00:34:24,598
- We'll come back.
- Yeah.
786
00:34:24,665 --> 00:34:26,300
But I...
787
00:34:26,366 --> 00:34:29,203
The Vietnamese
were fighting a nationalist war.
788
00:34:29,269 --> 00:34:32,239
Ho Chi Minh allied himself
with the communists
789
00:34:32,306 --> 00:34:36,343
because that gave him the best
chance for independence.
790
00:34:36,410 --> 00:34:38,879
From the outside looking in,
from Washington,
791
00:34:38,946 --> 00:34:42,850
from McNamara's perch,
he didn't see a nationalist.
792
00:34:42,916 --> 00:34:44,751
He saw a communist.
793
00:34:44,818 --> 00:34:47,487
- Yes, right, again,
that dichotomy.
794
00:34:47,554 --> 00:34:49,423
- Right.
- The way of viewing the world.
795
00:34:49,489 --> 00:34:51,024
- And we now know, at the time,
796
00:34:51,091 --> 00:34:53,360
that they didn't seem
to fully appreciate
797
00:34:53,427 --> 00:34:56,763
that the communist bloc
was not a united front.
798
00:34:56,830 --> 00:35:01,001
That the Chinese,
the red Chinese, the Soviets,
799
00:35:01,068 --> 00:35:04,404
the North Vietnamese were
not all marching in lockstep.
800
00:35:04,471 --> 00:35:06,907
We now know
that was not the case.
801
00:35:06,974 --> 00:35:08,675
But at the time,
there was a perception
802
00:35:08,742 --> 00:35:10,277
that they did march in lockstep.
803
00:35:10,344 --> 00:35:11,879
- And that you had
to move quickly.
804
00:35:11,945 --> 00:35:13,146
- Right.
805
00:35:13,213 --> 00:35:17,484
And it was a much more
monolithic approach to Asia
806
00:35:17,551 --> 00:35:19,119
than it really was.
807
00:35:19,186 --> 00:35:21,121
As a matter of fact,
the best evidence of that
808
00:35:21,188 --> 00:35:22,456
is the 1979 war.
809
00:35:22,523 --> 00:35:26,126
The Chinese tried
to invade Vietnam in early 1979,
810
00:35:26,193 --> 00:35:28,195
and it did not go well.
811
00:35:28,629 --> 00:35:30,597
And that's something
that the Chinese armed forces
812
00:35:30,664 --> 00:35:34,601
has always remembered and has
informed their approach
813
00:35:34,668 --> 00:35:36,670
to what they're trying
to do now.
814
00:35:36,737 --> 00:35:38,405
- It's, well...
815
00:35:39,139 --> 00:35:43,477
making a more efficient
military in many ways.
816
00:35:44,378 --> 00:35:48,782
But again, getting back to,
kind of, the domino theory,
817
00:35:48,849 --> 00:35:50,617
from a distance,
it would be easy to think,
818
00:35:50,684 --> 00:35:54,488
Well, look, China,
upwards of a billion population.
819
00:35:54,555 --> 00:35:56,957
The rest of southeast Asia,
what?
820
00:35:57,024 --> 00:35:58,325
Far less than that.
821
00:35:58,392 --> 00:36:03,931
How could they possibly resist
this power that was China?
822
00:36:05,999 --> 00:36:08,669
- The U.S. ambassador told
Ernest Hemingway in 1941,
823
00:36:08,735 --> 00:36:13,173
China is so big, China will do
whatever it chooses to do.
824
00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:14,942
And that's very close
to a quotation.
825
00:36:15,008 --> 00:36:16,910
And it's true today.
826
00:36:17,177 --> 00:36:18,912
We haven't even talked
about the Chinese Civil War,
827
00:36:18,979 --> 00:36:21,782
which ended in 1949 and
ended without a peace treaty.
828
00:36:21,849 --> 00:36:23,717
And that's why you get
the whole Taiwan Strait,
829
00:36:23,784 --> 00:36:26,019
South China Sea crisis.
830
00:36:26,553 --> 00:36:29,957
That's a very big domino
that fell for the communists.
831
00:36:30,023 --> 00:36:32,893
And the difference is, though,
832
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,629
is once you get
into southeast Asia,
833
00:36:35,696 --> 00:36:38,198
the terrain,
and you look at the conduct
834
00:36:38,265 --> 00:36:39,533
of the Southeast Asian War,
835
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,402
both the French War
and also the American War,
836
00:36:42,469 --> 00:36:44,404
you see how the terrain
and the jungles
837
00:36:44,471 --> 00:36:46,840
really make it
much more difficult
838
00:36:46,907 --> 00:36:49,810
to operate and sustain a force.
839
00:36:50,711 --> 00:36:52,246
You know, there's a reason
why the French
840
00:36:52,312 --> 00:36:54,348
came to grief Dien Bien Phu,
841
00:36:54,414 --> 00:36:56,283
once they lost control
of the airstrip,
842
00:36:56,350 --> 00:36:59,052
because overland communications
were so difficult
843
00:36:59,119 --> 00:37:00,787
into that valley.
844
00:37:02,055 --> 00:37:03,524
And they didn't think
the Vietnamese
845
00:37:03,590 --> 00:37:05,425
would be able to do
what they did
846
00:37:05,492 --> 00:37:07,261
to move an army
and fight that battle.
847
00:37:07,327 --> 00:37:09,229
- Always, always...
848
00:37:10,831 --> 00:37:12,733
...in the top list
of things not to do
849
00:37:12,799 --> 00:37:14,535
when you are moving an army
850
00:37:14,601 --> 00:37:17,771
is do not underestimate
your opponent.
851
00:37:17,838 --> 00:37:19,106
- Absolutely.
852
00:37:19,173 --> 00:37:21,108
So, you know,
you look at all of that
853
00:37:21,175 --> 00:37:22,843
and there's a...
854
00:37:24,845 --> 00:37:26,713
as the Vietnamese
proved again and again,
855
00:37:26,780 --> 00:37:28,782
it's a relatively...
856
00:37:29,082 --> 00:37:31,652
it's a good place
to go fight a guerrilla war.
857
00:37:31,718 --> 00:37:35,088
And it's a good place
to ensnare a conventional army
858
00:37:35,155 --> 00:37:39,493
and basically force them to,
you know, do a lot of things,
859
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,796
but ultimately, to very little
profit on the battlefield.
860
00:37:42,863 --> 00:37:47,668
- So, it wasn't a war
of communism versus democracy,
861
00:37:49,403 --> 00:37:51,071
let's say, or Americanism.
862
00:37:51,138 --> 00:37:53,373
It was a nationalist war
863
00:37:53,774 --> 00:37:57,044
that the Vietnamese
were fighting.
864
00:37:57,110 --> 00:37:58,846
- They were using communism
to their own end.
865
00:37:58,912 --> 00:38:01,448
But at the end of the day,
it was a war for independence.
866
00:38:01,515 --> 00:38:03,050
As a matter of fact,
Ho Chi Minh,
867
00:38:03,116 --> 00:38:04,518
on September 2, 1945,
868
00:38:04,585 --> 00:38:07,955
when he proclaimed the
Democratic Republic of Vietnam,
869
00:38:08,021 --> 00:38:12,559
he borrowed a lot of the U.S.
Declaration of Independence
870
00:38:12,626 --> 00:38:14,294
for his language.
871
00:38:14,628 --> 00:38:17,097
And there's a guy
named Bernard Fall,
872
00:38:17,164 --> 00:38:18,599
wrote some great stuff,
873
00:38:18,665 --> 00:38:20,100
and he talked
to the North Vietnamese,
874
00:38:20,167 --> 00:38:21,668
and they talked about
how we're about
875
00:38:21,735 --> 00:38:23,670
something
called revolutionary war.
876
00:38:23,737 --> 00:38:25,439
It's a political war,
it's a military war,
877
00:38:25,506 --> 00:38:26,773
it's an economic war.
878
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,277
But it's our population
fighting for our independence.
879
00:38:30,344 --> 00:38:32,112
And we are willing
to do whatever it takes
880
00:38:32,179 --> 00:38:34,815
for however long it takes.
881
00:38:34,882 --> 00:38:37,084
And ultimately, we will win.
882
00:38:37,150 --> 00:38:39,586
- Well, that is-- isn't it
kind of the underpinning
883
00:38:39,653 --> 00:38:42,556
of this whole decolonizing...
884
00:38:43,190 --> 00:38:46,293
These countries have
this national identity,
885
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,863
and they are willing
to make greater sacrifices
886
00:38:49,930 --> 00:38:53,500
than those trying
to impose colonialism on them?
887
00:38:53,567 --> 00:38:55,602
- Remember when we talked
about Versailles
888
00:38:55,669 --> 00:38:57,204
and I talked
about Ho Chi Minh there,
889
00:38:57,271 --> 00:38:58,572
and the seeds of nationalism
890
00:38:58,639 --> 00:39:02,209
that were planted
in the wake of World War I?
891
00:39:02,276 --> 00:39:03,810
In this case,
and there are other cases
892
00:39:03,877 --> 00:39:06,280
that we could talk about,
but this case
893
00:39:06,346 --> 00:39:08,415
is one of those examples
of how it has flowered
894
00:39:08,482 --> 00:39:12,352
over the decades between 1919
and the end of World War II,
895
00:39:12,419 --> 00:39:16,223
and how it found
very fertile soil in the,
896
00:39:17,357 --> 00:39:20,360
you know, the immediate
aftermath of World War II.
897
00:39:20,427 --> 00:39:25,332
And how World War II
led directly, and its aftermath,
898
00:39:26,033 --> 00:39:28,368
carried directly
the seeds of the conflict.
899
00:39:28,435 --> 00:39:30,637
First, the French Indochina war
900
00:39:30,704 --> 00:39:32,206
and then
the United States' involvement.
901
00:39:32,272 --> 00:39:35,409
As a matter of fact,
I would argue that...
902
00:39:35,475 --> 00:39:37,010
Whenever I lecture
about Vietnam,
903
00:39:37,077 --> 00:39:40,214
I always start in 1945,
and I say it's a 30-year war
904
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,015
that ends with the fall
of Saigon,
905
00:39:42,082 --> 00:39:45,819
and it starts
with the Japanese surrender.
906
00:39:45,886 --> 00:39:47,421
And there are
a lot of other places
907
00:39:47,487 --> 00:39:48,822
where you can draw these
as well.
908
00:39:48,889 --> 00:39:51,892
Vietnam being very prominent,
obviously, to us
909
00:39:51,959 --> 00:39:53,060
and the American memory
910
00:39:53,126 --> 00:39:55,162
of the latter part
of the 20th century.
911
00:39:55,229 --> 00:39:58,098
But again, 1945 is yesterday.
912
00:39:58,165 --> 00:39:59,766
This is just
another example of it.
913
00:39:59,833 --> 00:40:04,338
- Well, and getting back
to this rising nationalism
914
00:40:04,404 --> 00:40:07,374
versus the colonial overlord,
915
00:40:07,441 --> 00:40:11,545
I mean, same thing in the
American Revolution, really.
916
00:40:11,612 --> 00:40:13,814
You know, I mean,
we were much more determined
917
00:40:13,881 --> 00:40:17,417
and knew the ground
better than the Britons
918
00:40:17,484 --> 00:40:20,187
who were the colonial power.
919
00:40:20,254 --> 00:40:22,055
- And the Vietnam analogy
has been drawn
920
00:40:22,122 --> 00:40:25,392
by some Revolutionary War
scholars
921
00:40:25,459 --> 00:40:26,727
who know their military history,
922
00:40:26,793 --> 00:40:30,364
have said that
a lot of the same problems
923
00:40:30,430 --> 00:40:34,701
that the French and the
Americans faced in Vietnam,
924
00:40:34,768 --> 00:40:37,738
the British
faced the same issues
925
00:40:37,804 --> 00:40:40,240
in the 1770s and the early 1780s
926
00:40:40,307 --> 00:40:42,009
in the American war
for independence.
927
00:40:42,075 --> 00:40:43,177
So, yeah.
928
00:40:43,243 --> 00:40:44,778
- Well, I think it was
Mark Twain
929
00:40:44,845 --> 00:40:46,847
who said history doesn't repeat,
but it does rhyme.
930
00:40:46,914 --> 00:40:49,216
- That's right.
[Norman chuckles]
931
00:40:49,283 --> 00:40:52,219
We have a lot more to look at,
both in southeast Asia
932
00:40:52,286 --> 00:40:55,422
and in other parts
of that sphere.
933
00:40:57,457 --> 00:41:01,495
For example, we haven't really
done more than mention India,
934
00:41:01,562 --> 00:41:05,365
which is certainly
a huge former colony.
935
00:41:06,166 --> 00:41:08,135
Obviously, completely
different history
936
00:41:08,202 --> 00:41:11,305
and culture,
or group of cultures,
937
00:41:11,371 --> 00:41:14,274
and one of the former
British colonies.
938
00:41:14,341 --> 00:41:16,510
- Christopher: British India
was known as the jewel
939
00:41:16,577 --> 00:41:18,345
in the crown
of the British Empire,
940
00:41:18,412 --> 00:41:20,013
was what it was called.
941
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,083
And the Indian Army
in World War II was 2 million.
942
00:41:23,150 --> 00:41:25,652
It was an all-volunteer force,
2 million strong.
943
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:27,154
It's the largest
all-volunteer army
944
00:41:27,221 --> 00:41:28,822
in the history of the world,
945
00:41:28,889 --> 00:41:31,225
and the Indian troops
fought everywhere.
946
00:41:31,291 --> 00:41:33,160
They were quite literally
on every battlefront
947
00:41:33,227 --> 00:41:34,895
fighting for empire.
948
00:41:34,962 --> 00:41:38,465
45,000 of them
got captured at Singapore,
949
00:41:38,532 --> 00:41:40,467
which I'll get back to here
in just a second.
950
00:41:40,534 --> 00:41:43,136
I do wanna point out, as
people are looking at this map,
951
00:41:43,203 --> 00:41:45,339
the dates of independence,
952
00:41:45,405 --> 00:41:46,974
which shows exactly
what we were talking about,
953
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:52,412
how, just this wave in the
10, 15 years after World War II.
954
00:41:52,479 --> 00:41:54,815
So, India, during the war
955
00:41:55,282 --> 00:41:57,117
and even today,
has a very complicated memory
956
00:41:57,184 --> 00:41:59,753
of World War II,
because on the one hand,
957
00:41:59,820 --> 00:42:02,656
so many Indians
fought for the British.
958
00:42:02,723 --> 00:42:06,760
But there was this politician
named Subhas Chandra Bose.
959
00:42:06,827 --> 00:42:08,896
He had a falling out
with Mohandas Gandhi
960
00:42:08,962 --> 00:42:10,063
right before the war
961
00:42:10,130 --> 00:42:12,332
because Bose wanted
more direct action,
962
00:42:12,399 --> 00:42:14,034
more political action,
963
00:42:14,101 --> 00:42:16,270
whereas Gandhi was much more
nonviolent resistance
964
00:42:16,336 --> 00:42:17,938
to the British.
- Sure.
965
00:42:18,005 --> 00:42:20,474
- Bose escapes to the Germans.
966
00:42:20,541 --> 00:42:23,110
He ends up with the Japanese
and recruits an army,
967
00:42:23,177 --> 00:42:26,313
the Indian National Army,
out of these prisoners of war.
968
00:42:26,380 --> 00:42:28,515
- Yeah, that's one of those
odd little sidelights
969
00:42:28,582 --> 00:42:29,883
of history, isn't it?
970
00:42:29,950 --> 00:42:32,219
- It's a sidelight,
but I'll tell you something.
971
00:42:32,286 --> 00:42:33,720
He is a national hero.
972
00:42:33,787 --> 00:42:34,888
They've named streets after him.
973
00:42:34,955 --> 00:42:36,690
- To the Indians.
- To the Indians.
974
00:42:36,757 --> 00:42:38,559
He's a national hero in India.
975
00:42:38,625 --> 00:42:40,594
And to understand,
976
00:42:40,661 --> 00:42:42,863
they're using him today
to stoke some of their,
977
00:42:42,930 --> 00:42:45,599
kind of, national identity.
978
00:42:45,666 --> 00:42:47,901
And the idea is he was
anti-British.
979
00:42:47,968 --> 00:42:50,370
We're not gonna worry about
the fact he fought with the,
980
00:42:50,437 --> 00:42:52,005
you know,
he fought with the Japanese.
981
00:42:52,072 --> 00:42:54,942
- My enemy's enemy is my friend.
- Exactly.
982
00:42:55,008 --> 00:42:57,344
At the end of the war,
he dies in a plane crash.
983
00:42:57,411 --> 00:42:58,745
But at the end of the war,
984
00:42:58,812 --> 00:43:00,147
they capture
some of his top subordinates,
985
00:43:00,214 --> 00:43:03,817
and they try them
in the Red Fort in New Delhi.
986
00:43:03,884 --> 00:43:07,554
And most Indians had not heard
of the Indian National Army
987
00:43:07,621 --> 00:43:09,456
until the trial.
988
00:43:09,523 --> 00:43:12,893
They get convicted,
and all of a sudden,
989
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,796
the Indians are like,
"Hey, wait a second.
990
00:43:15,863 --> 00:43:19,499
"They were just
fighting for a free India.
991
00:43:19,566 --> 00:43:20,868
We don't like this."
992
00:43:20,934 --> 00:43:22,903
You know, Britain,
this is not...
993
00:43:22,970 --> 00:43:25,038
And so, all of a sudden,
national strikes happen,
994
00:43:25,105 --> 00:43:29,343
the Indian navy mutinies,
and it lights that fuse
995
00:43:29,409 --> 00:43:33,947
that will lead directly
to the partition in 1947.
996
00:43:34,014 --> 00:43:35,916
The reason India is partitioned
997
00:43:35,983 --> 00:43:40,454
is the subcontinent
has majority Muslim areas,
998
00:43:41,522 --> 00:43:43,056
up on the eastern
and the western sides
999
00:43:43,123 --> 00:43:44,958
you see as Pakistan
and Bangladesh today,
1000
00:43:45,025 --> 00:43:48,829
it was known as East and West
Pakistan at the time.
1001
00:43:48,896 --> 00:43:51,999
They originally try
and hold the Pakistanis,
1002
00:43:52,065 --> 00:43:54,067
the Muslims, and the Hindus,
1003
00:43:54,134 --> 00:43:55,469
all try
and hold 'em all together.
1004
00:43:55,536 --> 00:43:56,937
There's also Christians
and Sikhs.
1005
00:43:57,004 --> 00:44:00,507
It's a real tapestry
of ethnicities.
1006
00:44:00,574 --> 00:44:03,243
They try and hold them in one,
but they can't.
1007
00:44:03,310 --> 00:44:07,781
And so, Earl Mountbatten
realizes we have to partition
1008
00:44:07,848 --> 00:44:10,851
and we're gonna create
Pakistan east and west.
1009
00:44:10,918 --> 00:44:13,554
And then in 1971,
East Pakistan breaks off
1010
00:44:13,620 --> 00:44:14,922
and becomes Bangladesh.
1011
00:44:14,988 --> 00:44:17,658
They fight
a war of independence.
1012
00:44:17,724 --> 00:44:19,326
And so,
on the 15th of February--
1013
00:44:19,393 --> 00:44:22,663
or, 15th of August, 1947,
they partition India.
1014
00:44:22,729 --> 00:44:25,199
But they don't draw the borders
for a couple of days.
1015
00:44:25,265 --> 00:44:27,601
So, there's a lot of people...
- Moving back and forth.
1016
00:44:27,668 --> 00:44:29,603
- Moving back and forth,
who, all of a sudden,
1017
00:44:29,670 --> 00:44:32,039
they're "on the wrong side
of the line."
1018
00:44:32,105 --> 00:44:34,274
And so, and if you've seen
the movie Gandhi,
1019
00:44:34,341 --> 00:44:36,310
they actually show some of this
1020
00:44:36,376 --> 00:44:38,612
where you'll see caravans
going back and forth,
1021
00:44:38,679 --> 00:44:40,581
and there will be fighting.
1022
00:44:40,647 --> 00:44:46,653
Because, you know, the hatreds,
the tensions have built so much.
1023
00:44:47,154 --> 00:44:49,122
They're still in conflict today.
- Right.
1024
00:44:49,189 --> 00:44:51,625
Yeah, and the atomic powers...
1025
00:44:51,692 --> 00:44:53,727
- Well, and now,
they're both nuclear powers.
1026
00:44:53,794 --> 00:44:57,731
But this conflict comes
right out of World War II
1027
00:44:57,798 --> 00:44:59,600
in its immediate aftermath.
1028
00:44:59,666 --> 00:45:01,568
And if you want
to understand India
1029
00:45:01,635 --> 00:45:04,171
and understand some level
of kind of what it believes
1030
00:45:04,238 --> 00:45:07,407
about itself, particularly
during World War II,
1031
00:45:07,474 --> 00:45:11,745
you've got to understand Bose
and the Indian National Army.
1032
00:45:11,812 --> 00:45:13,747
- That's one thing
we haven't gotten into too much,
1033
00:45:13,814 --> 00:45:18,318
except, I think, by implication,
and that is the colonial powers,
1034
00:45:18,385 --> 00:45:22,823
while they were in control
of these now former colonies,
1035
00:45:22,890 --> 00:45:26,393
could be rather cavalier
about drawing borders.
1036
00:45:26,460 --> 00:45:28,829
- Yes, they could,
and in the--
1037
00:45:28,896 --> 00:45:32,432
Actually, the India-Pakistan
border is a great example.
1038
00:45:32,499 --> 00:45:35,235
The guy who drew it
was a guy named Stafford Cripps.
1039
00:45:35,302 --> 00:45:38,805
And he had not a lot
of Indian experience.
1040
00:45:38,872 --> 00:45:42,576
He showed up,
took an ethnographic map,
1041
00:45:42,643 --> 00:45:44,144
and started drawing.
1042
00:45:44,211 --> 00:45:46,013
Started drawing lines.
1043
00:45:46,079 --> 00:45:47,748
And if you are...
1044
00:45:48,582 --> 00:45:52,352
In the case of New Delhi,
there still is a large Muslim--
1045
00:45:52,419 --> 00:45:54,988
There's 25 million Muslims
that live in India.
1046
00:45:55,055 --> 00:45:56,690
One of the largest mosques
in the world
1047
00:45:56,757 --> 00:45:58,959
still is in New Delhi today.
1048
00:45:59,026 --> 00:46:00,794
But New Delhi was significantly,
1049
00:46:00,861 --> 00:46:03,130
had a significant
Muslim minority.
1050
00:46:03,197 --> 00:46:07,534
They all packed up
and went west into Pakistan.
1051
00:46:09,169 --> 00:46:12,906
Most of them did, I'm being
a little bit too general,
1052
00:46:12,973 --> 00:46:14,741
but that population
just, you know,
1053
00:46:14,808 --> 00:46:19,146
millions of people
in this population change.
1054
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:21,548
It rivals...
1055
00:46:22,049 --> 00:46:23,750
In fact, it's even bigger,
1056
00:46:23,817 --> 00:46:25,352
just the number of people,
than anything
1057
00:46:25,419 --> 00:46:27,554
that we were talking about
going on in Europe,
1058
00:46:27,621 --> 00:46:29,423
which is going on
at the same time,
1059
00:46:29,489 --> 00:46:31,191
in the late 1940s.
1060
00:46:31,258 --> 00:46:34,494
- When the Indians
and populations
1061
00:46:36,163 --> 00:46:38,432
from some of the other
British colonies, we'll say,
1062
00:46:38,498 --> 00:46:41,001
and may well apply
to the French, also,
1063
00:46:41,068 --> 00:46:44,438
when the British and the French
got into these wars
1064
00:46:44,505 --> 00:46:46,840
that were a little more
than they could handle,
1065
00:46:46,907 --> 00:46:49,209
armies always seemed
to need more men,
1066
00:46:49,276 --> 00:46:51,411
more firepower than they have,
1067
00:46:51,478 --> 00:46:56,750
did the British, and the French,
and the other colonial powers
1068
00:46:56,817 --> 00:47:00,521
promise those colonial
populations anything?
1069
00:47:00,587 --> 00:47:05,726
"If you will support us in
the war effort with, you know,
1070
00:47:06,093 --> 00:47:07,995
men and resources?"
1071
00:47:09,730 --> 00:47:11,565
- I'll give you
the historians' answer.
1072
00:47:11,632 --> 00:47:12,933
It depends.
[Norman laughs]
1073
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:16,036
- That's always a good answer.
- For the African colonies
1074
00:47:16,103 --> 00:47:18,272
that provided divisions
to the British army,
1075
00:47:18,338 --> 00:47:20,440
it was greater self-government.
1076
00:47:20,507 --> 00:47:21,975
You'll still be part
of the empire.
1077
00:47:22,042 --> 00:47:23,644
Greater self-government.
1078
00:47:23,710 --> 00:47:25,646
Those colonies
don't get independent
1079
00:47:25,712 --> 00:47:29,683
until the '50s and '60s
for the most part.
1080
00:47:29,750 --> 00:47:31,985
India, actually,
it was a real issue
1081
00:47:32,052 --> 00:47:33,687
because the Viceroy of India,
1082
00:47:33,754 --> 00:47:37,357
when he got the telegram saying
"We're declaring war on Germany"
1083
00:47:37,424 --> 00:47:40,761
because he is basically the
king's representative in India,
1084
00:47:40,827 --> 00:47:43,830
he went ahead and said,
"Well, we're going to war too."
1085
00:47:43,897 --> 00:47:45,899
And there were a lot
of Indian politicians,
1086
00:47:45,966 --> 00:47:47,768
Gandhi, Jawaharlal Nehru,
1087
00:47:47,835 --> 00:47:51,004
who later became the first prime
minister of independent India,
1088
00:47:51,071 --> 00:47:53,006
who said, "Wait a minute,
you've been talking to us
1089
00:47:53,073 --> 00:47:54,441
"about self-government.
1090
00:47:54,508 --> 00:47:58,078
"You've been talking about us
having a say in how to govern.
1091
00:47:58,145 --> 00:48:00,414
"And then, you go ahead
and take a unilateral decision
1092
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:02,182
to take us to war?"
1093
00:48:02,249 --> 00:48:05,252
- And the Brits obviously
had their backs to the wall.
1094
00:48:05,319 --> 00:48:06,720
I mean, look at Dunkirk,
for example.
1095
00:48:06,787 --> 00:48:08,889
- Christopher: Right.
- So, they're desperate.
1096
00:48:08,956 --> 00:48:10,757
They don't really
have time to consult.
1097
00:48:10,824 --> 00:48:13,894
But what do they say
to the Indians?
1098
00:48:13,961 --> 00:48:16,263
- Well, the viceroy at the time
basically says,
1099
00:48:16,330 --> 00:48:19,933
"It's my power,
I'm gonna do what I want."
1100
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,236
As the war doesn't go very well,
1101
00:48:22,302 --> 00:48:25,472
and the Japanese
actually invade Burma in 1942,
1102
00:48:25,539 --> 00:48:28,475
there's the movement
called the Quit India movement,
1103
00:48:28,542 --> 00:48:32,446
a nationwide strike
in the summer of 1942,
1104
00:48:33,146 --> 00:48:35,816
and basically, the British
throw Gandhi and Nehru
1105
00:48:35,883 --> 00:48:38,051
and many of these
nationalist leaders
1106
00:48:38,118 --> 00:48:39,653
into jail
for the rest of the war.
1107
00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:41,455
- Norman: They just
don't wanna hear from 'em.
1108
00:48:41,522 --> 00:48:43,190
- Right.
1109
00:48:43,690 --> 00:48:46,260
But that still stokes the fire,
and it makes them martyrs.
1110
00:48:46,326 --> 00:48:48,095
So, when they are released,
1111
00:48:48,161 --> 00:48:50,931
"Hey, look at what we did,
look at the sacrifice we made.
1112
00:48:50,998 --> 00:48:52,933
"And oh, by the way,
look at how our troops
1113
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:54,868
"fought overseas
and helped save the empire,
1114
00:48:54,935 --> 00:48:56,870
and this is the thanks we get."
1115
00:48:56,937 --> 00:49:00,274
I'm putting it very simply,
but that's the message.
1116
00:49:00,340 --> 00:49:02,776
And then,
you add the Red Fort trials,
1117
00:49:02,843 --> 00:49:05,179
and you can see
how it very quickly...
1118
00:49:05,245 --> 00:49:08,182
- How did those trials turn out?
1119
00:49:08,248 --> 00:49:10,584
- There were three,
the three principal subordinates
1120
00:49:10,651 --> 00:49:13,787
were tried and convicted
in 1946,
1121
00:49:14,588 --> 00:49:15,923
and they were not
gonna be executed.
1122
00:49:15,989 --> 00:49:18,492
They were gonna be exiled.
1123
00:49:18,559 --> 00:49:19,826
- From India?
1124
00:49:19,893 --> 00:49:21,662
To where?
- Wherever.
1125
00:49:21,728 --> 00:49:23,363
They were probably
gonna end up in Japan.
1126
00:49:23,430 --> 00:49:25,132
They hadn't gotten that far...
1127
00:49:25,199 --> 00:49:27,301
- Home sweet home.
- Yeah.
1128
00:49:27,367 --> 00:49:30,304
...when they decided
to reverse the ruling.
1129
00:49:30,370 --> 00:49:31,905
They hadn't gotten
as far as to say,
1130
00:49:31,972 --> 00:49:33,073
"Well, where are you going?"
1131
00:49:33,140 --> 00:49:34,408
It's
"You're getting out of here."
1132
00:49:34,474 --> 00:49:35,576
And then, after the strikes,
1133
00:49:35,642 --> 00:49:38,045
the viceroy,
who was a new viceroy,
1134
00:49:38,111 --> 00:49:39,213
came in and said,
1135
00:49:39,279 --> 00:49:41,215
"Okay, I'm gonna
commute the sentences
1136
00:49:41,281 --> 00:49:43,317
and reverse the convictions,"
1137
00:49:43,383 --> 00:49:45,118
in a way to try
and tamper it down.
1138
00:49:45,185 --> 00:49:46,920
But by then,
the fires of independence
1139
00:49:46,987 --> 00:49:49,056
and the fires
of anti-British feeling
1140
00:49:49,122 --> 00:49:50,424
were just burning too hot.
1141
00:49:50,490 --> 00:49:52,826
And in a matter of months,
1142
00:49:53,427 --> 00:49:55,662
it became clear
that the British were going.
1143
00:49:55,729 --> 00:49:57,497
The question was, were
they gonna leave two nations,
1144
00:49:57,564 --> 00:50:00,200
or were they gonna leave
one behind?
1145
00:50:00,267 --> 00:50:04,171
- We've certainly
been looking a lot at Asia,
1146
00:50:04,238 --> 00:50:07,341
central Asia, southeast Asia.
1147
00:50:07,407 --> 00:50:10,277
And I know
it falls chronologically,
1148
00:50:10,344 --> 00:50:13,881
mostly, out of this
1945 to '55 phenomenon
1149
00:50:13,947 --> 00:50:16,817
we've been talking about,
but if we go into the late '50s,
1150
00:50:16,884 --> 00:50:19,753
into the early '60s,
and we look at Africa,
1151
00:50:19,820 --> 00:50:21,088
which, as you say, Chris,
1152
00:50:21,154 --> 00:50:25,158
did provide troops
to the colonial powers,
1153
00:50:25,993 --> 00:50:28,529
and again,
you look at some of the way
1154
00:50:28,595 --> 00:50:30,631
those boundaries were drawn,
1155
00:50:30,697 --> 00:50:34,168
just straight lines through
who knows how many tribes
1156
00:50:34,234 --> 00:50:37,337
and cultures and everything.
- Yep.
1157
00:50:37,404 --> 00:50:39,173
- Why do you think
it took longer
1158
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:44,811
for those African countries
to ask for their independence?
1159
00:50:45,612 --> 00:50:48,482
Or did it, for that matter,
in terms of asking for it?
1160
00:50:48,549 --> 00:50:51,685
- There were
independence movements.
1161
00:50:51,752 --> 00:50:53,854
I'd say the communists,
the Soviets
1162
00:50:53,921 --> 00:50:56,290
really pushed a lot of that.
1163
00:50:57,324 --> 00:50:58,659
They took the opportunity
to do that.
1164
00:50:58,725 --> 00:51:00,861
I think part of it is...
1165
00:51:01,795 --> 00:51:05,666
The colonial regimes
and that part of the world,
1166
00:51:05,732 --> 00:51:08,435
like South America, remained
relatively physically untouched
1167
00:51:08,502 --> 00:51:10,337
by the Second World War.
1168
00:51:10,404 --> 00:51:13,574
What supercharged
what we're talking about here
1169
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:15,776
is where you get governments.
1170
00:51:15,843 --> 00:51:18,178
Armies moved across these areas,
1171
00:51:18,245 --> 00:51:20,581
but you also get governments
that were either deposed
1172
00:51:20,647 --> 00:51:23,383
or weakened
as a result of fighting.
1173
00:51:23,450 --> 00:51:28,488
And that was indirectly--
That was not directly the impact
1174
00:51:28,555 --> 00:51:31,658
in Africa, with the notable
exception of North Africa,
1175
00:51:31,725 --> 00:51:34,394
Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia,
1176
00:51:35,095 --> 00:51:38,665
Egypt, Libya, actually,
and all of those
1177
00:51:38,732 --> 00:51:40,968
prove the rule because, by 1962,
1178
00:51:41,034 --> 00:51:44,271
they are all
independent nations.
1179
00:51:44,872 --> 00:51:47,841
Sub-Saharan Africa
has a little bit longer process
1180
00:51:47,908 --> 00:51:49,543
because they weren't
as directly affected
1181
00:51:49,610 --> 00:51:52,312
by fighting, direct fighting
on the battlefront.
1182
00:51:52,379 --> 00:51:54,481
- Well, North Africa,
of course, certainly was.
1183
00:51:54,548 --> 00:51:57,651
- Right.
- Extensive, extensive war.
1184
00:51:57,718 --> 00:51:59,386
And...
1185
00:52:00,053 --> 00:52:02,422
I also have to wonder
a little bit about,
1186
00:52:02,489 --> 00:52:05,826
I'll say whether it was
exactly colonial status,
1187
00:52:05,893 --> 00:52:10,230
but certainly influence
of colonial powers
1188
00:52:10,297 --> 00:52:13,534
for places like Iraq,
in particular,
1189
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:15,936
and to some extent, Iran.
1190
00:52:16,336 --> 00:52:17,838
- They were
nominally independent.
1191
00:52:17,905 --> 00:52:19,740
There was a fascist movement,
1192
00:52:19,806 --> 00:52:23,143
and the British actually
occupied and administered Iraq,
1193
00:52:23,210 --> 00:52:26,613
and we actually
used the Persian Gulf
1194
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,883
and up through Tehran
and up through Basra,
1195
00:52:29,950 --> 00:52:32,553
into the Soviet Union
as a Lend-Lease area.
1196
00:52:32,619 --> 00:52:35,155
So, there actually
is a significant U.S.
1197
00:52:35,222 --> 00:52:37,691
and British presence,
and Soviet presence,
1198
00:52:37,758 --> 00:52:39,359
in that region.
1199
00:52:39,426 --> 00:52:41,461
And then, they all withdraw
after World War II.
1200
00:52:41,528 --> 00:52:44,198
Fun fact, Norman Schwarzkopf?
- Yes.
1201
00:52:44,264 --> 00:52:46,300
- You know, the victor
of the Persian Gulf War.
1202
00:52:46,366 --> 00:52:48,635
- Yeah.
- He's Norman Schwarzkopf Jr.
1203
00:52:48,702 --> 00:52:51,071
Norman Schwarzkopf Sr.,
as a brigadier general,
1204
00:52:51,138 --> 00:52:52,906
was one of the administrators
1205
00:52:52,973 --> 00:52:56,443
of the Persian Gulf Command,
as it was known at the time,
1206
00:52:56,510 --> 00:52:58,912
of Lend-Lease through Iraq
1207
00:52:58,979 --> 00:53:01,748
into the Soviet Union
during World War II.
1208
00:53:01,815 --> 00:53:04,051
- He was also the host of a show
called Gangbusters
1209
00:53:04,117 --> 00:53:06,720
on radio for a time,
Schwarzkopf Sr.
1210
00:53:06,787 --> 00:53:07,888
- I didn't know that.
1211
00:53:07,955 --> 00:53:10,057
- [chuckles] Yes, a man
of many different parts.
1212
00:53:10,123 --> 00:53:12,593
- Yeah.
- But there was then
1213
00:53:15,095 --> 00:53:17,931
considerable cooperation
at that point,
1214
00:53:17,998 --> 00:53:21,401
as we get into World War II,
between the colonial powers,
1215
00:53:21,468 --> 00:53:23,136
and I'll include
the United States in that,
1216
00:53:23,203 --> 00:53:26,640
fighting as part
of the Allied forces,
1217
00:53:26,707 --> 00:53:29,710
with Iran and Iraq
at that point.
1218
00:53:30,611 --> 00:53:32,646
- Yes, I would agree with that.
1219
00:53:32,713 --> 00:53:35,115
And there's a reason
why the Tehran conference
1220
00:53:35,182 --> 00:53:38,018
is there in November of 1943.
1221
00:53:39,052 --> 00:53:41,221
It's right on the back door
of the Soviet Union,
1222
00:53:41,288 --> 00:53:43,123
but you know,
Churchill and Roosevelt
1223
00:53:43,190 --> 00:53:44,291
are able to meet there.
1224
00:53:44,358 --> 00:53:45,893
It's the first big meeting...
- And Stalin.
1225
00:53:45,959 --> 00:53:48,529
- ...of the big three--
Yeah, with Stalin.
1226
00:53:48,595 --> 00:53:50,430
And that's where
they plan to win the war.
1227
00:53:50,497 --> 00:53:52,966
And so, to me,
that's the perfect, you know,
1228
00:53:53,033 --> 00:53:55,702
one of the perfect pieces
of evidence.
1229
00:53:55,769 --> 00:53:57,771
In fact, the Poles,
like my grandfather,
1230
00:53:57,838 --> 00:54:00,040
are evacuated
from the Soviet Union.
1231
00:54:00,107 --> 00:54:01,275
They're collected
at the southern border
1232
00:54:01,341 --> 00:54:03,877
of the Soviet Union
and evacuated through Persia.
1233
00:54:03,944 --> 00:54:05,879
And some of them end up
fighting in the Mediterranean.
1234
00:54:05,946 --> 00:54:07,147
Others, like my grandfather,
1235
00:54:07,214 --> 00:54:09,283
end up with the free Poles
in Britain.
1236
00:54:09,349 --> 00:54:11,785
So, you know,
you put those two things,
1237
00:54:11,852 --> 00:54:14,454
and that illustrates exactly
the support that we're getting
1238
00:54:14,521 --> 00:54:16,456
from that part of the world,
1239
00:54:16,523 --> 00:54:18,659
or the Allies are getting
from that part of the world.
1240
00:54:18,725 --> 00:54:21,061
- Well, we could certainly
do another hour, Chris,
1241
00:54:21,128 --> 00:54:23,263
from an Allied standpoint,
1242
00:54:23,330 --> 00:54:28,101
how a lot of it fell apart
after all that independence.
1243
00:54:28,168 --> 00:54:31,305
But for now,
we see pretty clearly
1244
00:54:33,373 --> 00:54:37,144
how quickly things happened
in, really, just ten years,
1245
00:54:37,211 --> 00:54:39,446
from '45 to '55.
- Right.
1246
00:54:39,847 --> 00:54:45,319
- Because of the alliances and
the way World War II played out.
1247
00:54:45,385 --> 00:54:48,055
- You know, I bring it back
to the thing we started with,
1248
00:54:48,121 --> 00:54:49,890
a world profoundly changed,
1249
00:54:49,957 --> 00:54:53,493
and it changed
comparable to the fall of Rome.
1250
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:56,063
Every corner of the globe
got touched in some way
1251
00:54:56,129 --> 00:54:58,498
and still is touched
by World War II
1252
00:54:58,565 --> 00:55:00,467
and its immediate aftermath.
1253
00:55:00,534 --> 00:55:01,635
And I think, you know,
1254
00:55:01,702 --> 00:55:05,572
what we've been able
to talk about today,
1255
00:55:05,639 --> 00:55:06,974
we've given
a pretty good survey,
1256
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:08,375
but there's a lot more to learn.
1257
00:55:08,442 --> 00:55:10,077
But it's...
1258
00:55:10,143 --> 00:55:12,412
1945 is yesterday,
it really is.
1259
00:55:12,479 --> 00:55:14,014
- But it's still
in the newspapers today.
1260
00:55:14,081 --> 00:55:15,749
- Yes, it is.
1261
00:55:15,816 --> 00:55:19,419
- Chris Kolakowski, a pleasure
touching bases with you...
1262
00:55:19,486 --> 00:55:21,522
- Christopher: My pleasure.
- ...on the aftermath,
1263
00:55:21,588 --> 00:55:22,856
which we still live with,
1264
00:55:22,923 --> 00:55:26,093
of World War II
and postcolonialism.
1265
00:55:26,159 --> 00:55:27,928
- Thanks for having me.
1266
00:55:27,995 --> 00:55:29,096
- I'm Norman Gilliland,
1267
00:55:29,162 --> 00:55:31,098
and I hope you can join me
next time around
1268
00:55:31,164 --> 00:55:33,133
for University Place Presents.
1269
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:34,868
[gentle music]