- Angela Fitzgerald: According to the Madison School District,
57% of school suspensions in 2019
were given to Black students.
Why is that?
Large education gaps, poverty levels,
and zero-tolerance policies are huge issues
that affect Black education in Wisconsin.
Today, we'll talk to one survivor
of the school-to-prison pipeline and how they're using
their story to help Black youth in Wisconsin.
But first, let's explore why race matters
when we talk about education.
[upbeat music]
The Landmark 1954 Brown vs Board of Education
Supreme Court case declared that racial segregation
in public schools was unconstitutional.
Even then, it wasn't until 1976
that federal judge John Reynolds issued a court order
to desegregate Milwaukee's Public Schools.
However, Black students are still segregated
by school policies.
The 1990s saw ineffective zero-tolerance policies that led
to the hyper criminalization of Black students.
Yet, school districts still pushed for extra precautions.
In 2007,
Milwaukee Public Schools brought police officers known as
school resource officers or SROs to their district,
which led to an increase in school arrests and citations.
In Madison Metropolitan School District,
Black students made up 81% of citations
and 64% of arrests
made by police between 2019 and 2020.
Organizers and activists like Rudy Bankston
work tirelessly to address
the criminalization of Black students
and the pipeline between schools and the criminal justice system.
Well, thank you for joining us today, Rudy.
- Rudy Bankston: Thank you for reaching out and inviting me.
- Of course, you have a lot to share on this topic.
So, to get us started, though,
can you tell us your story and how it has landed you
in the field and area of work that you're in?
- I grew up in Milwaukee, the youngest of four.
Grew up on the north side of Milwaukee
and this is the '80s and '90s
and attended public education.
A lot of bussing was happening back then, so...
- Does that mean students being bussed to other schools
outside their neighborhood?
- Yeah, predominantly white communities.
And there's a wooded area.
So it was the school, it was a parking lot.
And it was like two, three blocks of wooded area
where folks would go, students would go hang out.
We would sneak out during lunch
and just kick it a little bit.
Some-- sometimes skip,
sometimes just hang out after school in there.
'Cause it was just place where folks went--
students went and hung out.
And one day, there was a group of us
in that wooded area with a fake gun.
And it was not the serious looking fake guns today. [chuckles]
It was like a real fake gun.
The next day, I think it was,
I'm sitting in the classroom
and a security guard come get me in the classroom,
pull me out, and say, "Hey."
Started talking to me about a gun,
and I don't know what the hell he's talking about.
'Cause his tone was like a real gun.
I'm not even drawing a connection
to when we were kicking it in the woods.
I'm not drawing any connections.
So, I didn't realize what they were talking about
till I got into the principal's office,
and two police officers are in there
and they throw me in handcuffs.
Tell me the details.
I say, "Listen, that's a fake gun."
I told them where it was at; it was at home.
I told them where it was at.
They put me in handcuffs and took me away
and locked me up in the detention center.
They expelled me from the school.
- Wait... wait, wait!
So, this is over allegations around a toy gun
that was in the woods at your school...
- Yeah, a fake gun.
...that you were arrested and expelled?
- Expelled immediately.
No, you know...
I was expelled
and I was placed in an alternative.
I spent maybe two, three days in a detention center.
And this alternative school where--
Alternative schools in Milwaukee at that time,
you had some folks who were really trying
but they were under-resourced and they were seeing some
of the worst teachers and maybe not worst
but teachers with the poorest records.
That that became my new peer group and it spilled over.
We kicked it.
We started hanging out in this,
but this became my new peer group.
Meanwhile, my mother working full time.
But by the time I was 18 years old,
I was arrested for first-degree intentional homicide party to the crime,
first-degree reckless endangering the safety party to the crime.
This was during the OJ trial
when I was going to trial.
And I was just really understanding a lot more
about race and what not.
But I had two trials.
First trial ended in a mistrial.
Second trial, I had an all-white jury and it was,
and again, this was at--
This was at the height of the OJ Simpson trial,
and the racial divide that was being exposed--
not new, but exposed.
And I recall one of the jurors, she was tryna--
she was tryna exclude herself from doing it
and the judge asked why.
She said, I was on a highway one day
and I cut off this group of Black guys, and I cut 'em off.
And I think she said, she gave them the finger
and they caught up with her and, like,
threw a soda out the window and it splattered all--
She's like graphic and all the people in the jury pool
they're like looking all sad and like sympathizing.
And then, she was like, and they never got caught.
And it felt like in that moment they looked--
The energy was like, this one won't get away though.
You know what I mean?
So. I'm there paranoid.
- Angela: But I wasn't in the car.
- This is... you know.
So meanwhile, I get found guilty.
And I always say, I'm not innocent
in terms of, like, I fell off into the streets.
You talking about the '90s in Milwaukee.
Like, you know what I mean?
But I was not guilty of this particular case.
While in prison,
I began to educate myself.
My cell truly became a classroom.
- Mm-hmm.
I ordered books and I can say it now--
We can only have a limit on books in prison.
So I started building libraries
in other guys' cell that didn't read
and just have my people send them books.
- Wait, what was the maximum of books?
- Twenty-five publications.
Through that reading, I started to really discover how resilient
and beautiful and how much genius Black people hold.
And growing up, in education always got the slave story.
- Right.
- But even with that slave story, I got us as victims.
And knowledge became...
Like, it became innate,
like this is a part of who we are,
you know what I mean?
And this is stuff I never learned.
And again, even when we got to slavery,
the story was different.
Like how much genius and resilience it took to survive,
even in some instances thrive when the world
was set up to crush you and make you feel less than.
I learned about why we went from Africans to Negroes.
And when you rob people or their names
then you can define who they are.
And so, it was just so much stuff that I was learning
during that time.
And I began to really-- truly realize
that our ignorance is weaponized against us.
It helps you to...
to have this intimate relationship with your humanity.
And when you know, you're a human
you're not finna accept slavery or oppression.
And it's similar to today.
when we know what we're truly worth,
we're not gonna accept.
So just that education piece became critical
but not a white-centered education.
- I was gonna say
'cause when people hear the word education,
a certain idea comes to mind, the assumption is like,
well, we have education, but as you've already pointed out,
like, what type of education, what sort of messaging
is that education communicating to Black students?
And if it's reinforcing this negative narrative
then how is that going to make that student feel empowered
in your classroom?
Right?
Like, stereotype threat is a thing.
It's an absolute thing, right?
How is that causing me to view myself
in a way that is empowering, that I can then perform well?
Or is it feeding these defeatist victim mentalities to me
so I don't even think that I can?
And I'm so hard trying to disprove this idea
that I can't, that I'm underperforming.
Right?
Yeah, overhauling education
and just confronting how we go about it.
Like, absolutely.
Like, who is it serving?
And if it's not equally serving everyone
then what needs to change?
- Like, the prison system is a cemetery
of some of the best talent in the world, just sitting there.
And a lot of these men would rediscover writing,
and music, and philosophy,
and just deep, deep stuff.
- Well, let me ask you this because--
And thank you. - Yeah, yeah.
Your story, I feel like you could get
a movie, docuseries, something. - Make it happen, let's get it.
- I mean, we are a media company.
I was like, I can do that.
Wait a minute. - Yes, you can.
- We can talk about that. - No doubt.
But I'm thinking about like,
those who are listening to this and are thinking, okay,
we started off talking about like his time in school.
And then we talked about your time
within the criminal justice system.
I want to elevate why it's so important to
talk about those two systems being connected.
- Because they-- one feeds the other.
My school-to-prison pipeline started in middle school
when they said, "Get out."
That changed the trajectory of my life.
When I got kicked out of that middle school
and went to that alternative school,
the streets became a part of who--
like, they said, "Get out," and you know what I mean?
So, that story started in middle school
as it often does with young people.
Part of the work that I do also,
not only where I mainly work with adults
and work with adults around race and racism and things
and it can be anything from curriculum development
to building just and equitable learning environment
but I also contract with a part of
one of my contracts is working with these young people
in the juvenile system right here, downtown in JRC.
And I'm seeing the same thing in terms of like
smart, gifted, in unique ways that don't fit the mold of,
but like--
And you just want to like,
how do we pull these resources and get them what they need?
Our young people spend more time in these schools.
- Yes.
- And their reality of themselves and the world
is getting shaped.
And education is like it's always been.
It's like a serious hit or miss.
You don't show up with all the answers.
You show up, you listen to the people,
they give you all their thoughts, their wisdom
jumbled all up and your job as the revolutionary
is to go and organize that knowledge and wisdom
and give it back to the people.
And I think that's the same relationship that has to be done
with young people where you have to show up
expecting them to teach you some things.
'Cause they're gonna teach us like a parent and a child.
That child is gonna teach you how to be a father.
You don't have to have all the answers.
You just need to pay attention to what--
Yeah, yeah.
And it's the same with education.
But it's really difficult because if you're an educator,
and you're showing up with all this bias
that society has.
When you think about white supremacy culture,
it's the air we breathe, the water we swim in.
So, we've all internalized that,
but you show up in a classroom
and you've not done any of your own identity work,
and you're showing up with this.
And then, the district is constantly pounding data
in your head about how Black kids cannot learn.
And then they say go in the class and change
and teach Black kids.
So you have to have some very deep
and intentional unpacking.
- I feel like sometimes it's not even data that
specifically says that, but it's the comparisons, right?
So, if you're saying,
oh, that Black students are performing in this way,
by comparison to white students,
that's setting up white students as the norm
by which everyone else is then expected to level up with.
- That's the very epitome of white supremacy.
Because if you're the norm, you're the superior.
- Right. - You know what I mean?
And if you're not learning in that dominant way,
if you're not fitting into that cookie cutter approach
to education, then that's how so many people
end up in prison with such deep intelligence.
But they may learn in unique ways.
Again, people of color,
specifically speaking for myself as a black person,
we internalize this stuff as well.
So we have to continue to do our own work.
The struggle is we're expected to do the work
of teaching white folks... - Right.
- ...and then also doing our own healing.
You know what I mean?
- And that's been a consistent theme
in all these conversations that I've had to date
is that there are folks like you
who are in the field doing the work,
but that doesn't absolve you
from needing to manage your own stuff.
I mean, you've had
like a super traumatic experience for decades.
You're still having to deal
with aspects of what that still means for you
on top of how you're pouring into other people
and trying to fix this corrupt system or systems.
- Yeah, yeah.
And the daily chipping away of micro-traumas.
I mean, I had to create space for myself
because I was carrying a story of institutionalization.
And for me, it freaked me out
to start seeing the same fear that I saw
in the prison system,
amongst the staff who wanted to treat quote unquote inmates
more humane and how they would be scrutinized.
And I show up in education--
I did not get that level of fear.
And it really shocked me
and not from a place of judgment
but from a place of, like, how is this living?
But that is capitalistic white supremacy culture
where it thrives off of keeping people in place.
Education is more about compliance
than really helping students to become critical thinkers.
And when you're focused on compliance
that stuff, it trickles down.
So the principal is compliant with the school district.
The school district is compliant with the board
and then the teacher's feeling like they don't have power.
So, their classroom becomes the only place of power.
So then now they have to get compliant.
And that energy around that,
it makes it extremely difficult
to have those just and equitable learning environments.
How can we make sure the well- being of everyone is centered?
And how do we make that a part of the curriculum?
Like, how do we turn that into lessons?
Because one thing that George Floyd
and all this other stuff that's happening,
that's all curriculum and it's what's impact.
It's what we carryin'. - Right.
- So we can create healing environments,
where education is anchored
into the reality of what we're grappling with.
But it's also led with hard work.
It's still that headiness head and it's--
Folks are burnt out.
- I love everything that you just said
and especially the emphasis on how we can re-imagine.
'Cause since we've gone virtual
there's been little catch phrases
about what's the re-imagining of education and
what's it gonna look like that's different and you're right.
But it's catchphrasey to say that.
It's easier to default to what's familiar.
I feel like some folks are trying to transition
but that's hard to do when the system is structured
in a very specific way that this is how education works.
But I am seeing more conversations about,
how are we centering social-emotional needs?
and social and emotional learning
such that we're not ignoring
the realities of our students and our families and our staff
in this point in history
on top of, like, we gotta figure out online learning.
Oh, yeah, and it's COVID.
Oh, yeah, and all the other things, right?
We can't ignore that human side of people
which you've already too talked about.
So if we keep ignoring that cell,
then that's not going to serve.
Those who we're trying.
- And cell for not only students, but adults.
- Right.
- It's for a community, but the threat
to radically re-imagining anything
is how the human, the conditioning around going back
to what you're familiar with.
People will prefer a familiar slavery
than an unfamiliar freedom
because it's what they're-- - They know.
- You know what I mean?
Even though it's dysfunctional as hell.
- Angela: There's comfort in that dysfunction
'cause at least I know what it is.
- Yeah, yeah.
And that is the biggest threat.
But that's the biggest threat
to any real fundamental revolutionary change
is you have to conquer that inclination
to go to what you're familiar with, especially
when what's familiar is not benefitting the whole community.
- So again, you've highlighted the issues around
school-to-prison pipeline.
You gave your own personal story of how that started off.
And I hope people understood
that entry point and what that looked like
and how it just escalated over time.
And then kind of how that culminated for you.
One of the things I did wanna elevate
because you've mentioned men quite a few times
is the plight for Black girls in particular.
And there are books pushed out
that are tryna call attention to,
"Hey, there's this issue."
But again, it's not being spoken about.
So, is this something you can speak to briefly
before we close? - Thank you for elevating that.
It's just-- it's still that old belief
that it's just a threat to Black males.
But I'm in education.
Black girls are being criminalized.
It's an adultification of Black girls.
You can have-- I've witnessed it.
You can have a group
of white female students running down the hall
and it's symbolic and people wouldn't bat a eye.
But you have a group of Black girls running down the hall,
and it's just, you know, ring the alarm.
And that's symbolic.
It's a small thing, but it's symbolic.
But we have got--
I worked with our young sisters, particularly,
I just-- We just had-- Our last--
They're quarantining in JRC
and our last two students were Black girls.
Struggling, like, wanting to do good,
wanting to do great things.
But society is mean on our Black girls
and they are being made to feel
that they are not smart enough.
They're not pretty enough.
And some of it happens within the family.
Some of it happens through media.
Some of it happens through school
but they internalize that.
And there's a phenomenon
in education where Black girls are fighting
and they don't understand where it's coming from.
But what you internalize, you externalize particularly
on those who, if you've been made to feel
you're not pretty enough, you're not smart enough.
And you begin to develop some stuff
and I'm not talking about all
because some of our little sisters is just like--
they get it, they get it.
But there are some of our little sisters,
they're suffering in deep ways.
And instead of folks asking, what happened,
they're asking, what's wrong with you.
- Exactly. - You know what I mean.
- It's-- that's lack of recognition
around how trauma, however that's manifested
maybe contributing to what you're seeing in the classroom.
- Yeah, it definitely is.
- And how that's been leading
to other sorts of issues in school,
which could then land you in the juvenile justice system.
And that could just accelerate from there.
- And then, to be treated,
as a young person, to be treated as an adult.
Or like, treat young people like whole human beings,
but give them space to develop.
When you're made to-- when people treat you
as if what is happening in your life, you deserve it,
you begin to believe that, and then
that just creates this spiral.
But thank you for lifting that up and checking my patriarchy
in the process because it is. [Angela laughs]
It is, and I need that, I need that.
But I-- and it's not like I'm blind to it because I see it.
I've checked other people about it.
When they say our Black boys, our Black boys...
No, our Black girls are suffering now.
And it's about creating healing spaces for them.
And allowing them, excuse me,
allowing them to co-create these spaces.
- Angela: Like you said before,
not coming in with the solutions and the hero cape on,
but saying, 'what do you need?'
and 'what would you like to create?'
that then provides what is it you need.
- Yeah, for sure. - Wow.
Well, thank you for speaking to that.
Definitely didn't want that piece to go unnoticed.
- I needed that. - I know.
It's this weird kind of juxtaposition
of an invisible hypervisibility that I think Black women
and Black girls in our state and in our city,
like, deal with on a regular basis.
And constantly confronting that
I think is what we want to take place here.
So I feel like you've dropped so many nuggets
just during our entire time together.
So I don't want you to feel
you have to say something that's like a closeout
but if there's anything that you want
people watching this to take away from,
whether they can relate to your story or not,
whether they're like, this is new information for me.
I wanna help.
Or, I've been in this
and I'm trying to move the needle and I'm just struggling.
What do you want them to--
what do you want them to connect with the most?
- For me, anti-racism work is about tearing down the barriers
that gets in the way of us seeing one another humanity.
And that work is critical during this time
whether you are a 80-year-old or you eight years old.
I think our mission is a onion mission
where you're gonna peel, you're gonna peel.
You're gonna peel, and you're gonna keep peeling.
'Cause it's gonna be lifelong work,
regardless of what your race, or your sexuality, or gender is.
And sometimes that onion is gonna make you cry.
It's gonna make you cry because
right when you think you got it,
and it's another thing shows up
and I'm speaking from experience, you know.
- That is so true.
This work is not a checklist.
- Mm-mmm.
It's not checkbox work.
Like you said, it's lifelong continuous commitment.
- Mm-hmm.
Thank you for that, Rudy. - For sure.
- Public education is just that, education for the public.
The school-to-prison pipeline and other disparities
within the education system can have huge negative effects
on people of color, especially within the Black community.
A lack of representation in classrooms,
administrations and on school boards is also an issue.
One of the list of problems that need solutions.
To hear more of Rudy's incredible journey,
including how he won his freedom from incarceration,
subscribe and listen to our podcast
at pbswisconsin dot org slash whyracematters.
There, you can also find links
and resources to help keep you informed,
as well as additional episodes of Why Race Matters.
[instrumental music]
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is provided by
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Park Bank,
Alliant Energy,
Madison Museum of Contemporary Art,
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and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.