[bright music]
- Announcer: The following program
is a PBS Wisconsin original production.
- Angela Fitzgerald: Black spirituality
in the United States is deeply rooted
in the resilience and creativity
of African-descended communities.
But where did the Black church originate,
and what are its impacts on topics such as slavery,
civil rights, and Black joy?
Let's explore why race matters
when it comes to Black spirituality.
Religion has always been central to the lives of Black Americans.
When enslaved Africans were brought to the U.S. in 1619,
they carried with them the traditional religions
of West Africa.
Over time,
interactions with missionaries introduced Christianity.
Enslaved people were often barred from attending church
or were forced to sit through sermons justifying slavery.
To push back, they held secret services,
blending African traditions like spirit possession,
call-and-response singing, and dancing
with Christian practices.
Faith also became a source of resistance.
In 1831, Nat Turner, an enslaved preacher,
believed God called him to free his people,
sparking one of the most notable slave rebellions
in U.S. history.
In Wisconsin,
many Black churches grew during the Great Migration,
where millions of Black people moved north.
These churches became safe havens,
offering job assistance and food pantries.
During the Civil Rights Movement,
Black churches provided leadership, funding,
meeting spaces, and a sense of community.
Today, Black religious communities
are still sources of hope, guidance, and support.
Pastor Coliér McNair shares his journey
as a Black religious leader in Wisconsin,
keeping this powerful tradition alive.
How are you doing today, Coliér?
- Coliér McNair: Hey, I am, I am here.
- You're here. [both laugh]
Well, that's good, right?
- That is really good.
- Okay, I'm gonna take that to mean that's a positive thing.
And definitely appreciate you joining us for this episode
of Why Race Matters with a focus on Black spirituality.
- Mm-hmm.
- So do you wanna kick us off by just introducing yourself
and your connection to this topic?
- My name is Coliér McNair, and I,
I've been in Madison area for a while.
I was a pastor for 12 years
at a predominantly Black African-American church
here in the city.
And now I am working as a multicultural pastor
at a predominantly white church here in the city.
And my connection, obviously, to the topic tonight,
being a Black African-American man
and a rich history of spirituality,
religious background, and just growing up in church,
my mom and my dad and my brothers.
And that's just something that's always been a part
of my life and experience.
So, yeah.
- Awesome, thank you for that, that synopsis,
'cause, I mean, we definitely are gonna get into
the professional space in which you exist,
which also connects to your personal beliefs.
But you mentioned growing up in church
and that you also have been in Wisconsin for a while.
So, originally, where are you from,
and how did that shape your formative years
around faith and spirituality?
- Well, yeah, I was born in Michigan, Muskegon, Michigan,
and I don't think we stayed, what, maybe a year
or two years before my father moved us to his hometown
in East St. Louis, Illinois.
Some people might be familiar with that area.
So we toggled between East St. Louis, Illinois,
and St. Louis, Missouri, is where we went to church a lot.
So really grew up in, you know, those two areas.
Mostly during the week in the East St. Louis area,
I went to church, but Sundays were really
St. Louis, Missouri, experience.
And then we moved to my mom's hometown in Tuskegee, Alabama,
middle school, high school years.
And so really, the first 18 years of my life,
18, 19 years of my life,
I grew up around all African American people.
And that has truly impacted, you know,
the lens through which I experience,
you know, African American, you know,
people in this city in particular,
coming into this city with that outside perspective
and rich history.
You know, I think it's something
that I really take a lot of godly pride in having that,
because, you know, Madison is, you know,
people joke about it's kinda its own little bubble, you know,
and if you're born in this city
and there's not a lot of outside channels
through which African Americans
who may be born in this city have exposure to that--
I keep using the word rich African American,
Black African American experience and culture.
So I better stop, 'cause I can keep going.
- No, I mean, you've touched on a couple different things
I definitely want to circle back on,
but kind of just getting back to, you were mentioning
the Black religious traditions
that you were steeped in growing up
before even becoming a Wisconsiner.
As someone who grew up in the D.C. area,
I self-identify as a church kid,
even though I am revisiting some of the things
that I was taught that I'm questioning right now.
- Yes, yes, absolutely.
- But we'll also get to that later.
But for those who maybe are unfamiliar
with the Black religious traditions
that are deeply rooted in the Black community,
kind of what that looks like,
'cause when you look at statistics,
Black people in the U.S. as a whole
do identify as a pretty religious group
compared to some others. - Very much so.
- What were those religious traditions,
and what was that experience like for you?
- You know, so, for me, obviously, in Black culture,
it really is about community.
It's about that connection.
And the one beautiful thing about, you know, even music,
when you think about the spirituality piece, you know,
when you go back to our ancestors
and singing songs like "Follow the Drinking Gourd"
or "Wade in the Water" and what have you, for our culture,
music is intertwined, along with preaching,
all these other dynamics,
it's intertwined with expression, you know.
It's something, because when you didn't have a place
you can go to be yourself or to be seen or heard,
you know, the church became that place
through which that expression can take place.
And, you know, the thing about just any of us
when we go through things,
especially when you're experiencing trauma
and what have you, we're talking about the Black experience
and spirituality and what have you,
and we, you know, I imagine people have an idea,
you know, this country and whatever.
We talk about why race matters, right?
Because we're still talking about it, right?
- Absolutely. - We live in a country,
we have people think it's not an issue, right?
And when the reality is this country was built
on racial discrimination, bias, prejudice, and all of that.
So when you have a people that's a part of that
and centuries of laws or decades of laws
and what have you that didn't really allow for them to be seen
and expression, that had to get out some way.
That trauma had to get out someplace.
And the beautiful thing about the church
and the music, the preaching,
the testimonies, and the community and what have you,
that was the place where we were able to cry out or lament,
let all of that happen.
And it looks crazy to people on the outside.
But, man, what's crazier? - Served a purpose.
- Being in church worshiping God like that,
or being on the outside tearing up stuff, you know?
- Oh, absolutely, and there are even health benefits
to, you know, having a faith,
having a belief in a higher power
that things can get better.
Like, psychologically... - That's right, that's right.
- ...there is an impact there.
And when you talk about the expressiveness,
I guess a funny thought that came to mind for me was,
it wasn't until adulthood when I visited other church spaces
that I didn't realize there were churches that weren't loud.
Church was always loud. - Yes.
Like, it was loud with music, it was loud with the singing.
It was loud with the shouting, the dancing.
Like, everything was loud. - Yes, yes.
Because you're right, there may have been very little
alternative settings in which that, what needed to come out
could come out. - Yes, yes.
- Where I could cry, where I could do all the things
that reflect, this is what I've been experiencing
up 'til this one day of the week, potentially.
I could get it all out and get what I need to keep it pushing
for the week that's coming up. - That's right, that's right.
So beyond just maybe what religion might mean
for other groups who have not experienced oppression
in the same way, when you bring that into the mix,
then religion may take on a different meaning and purpose.
- Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
I mean, the toxicity of trauma and, you know,
oppression, disenfranchisement, all of that,
that stuff will kill you.
It will destroy you,
you know, whether it's mentally, emotionally.
Psychologically is mentally, whatever,
you know, relational dynamics or whatever.
So the church, and things have, you know, changed a lot,
but it was so instrumental and still is.
- Absolutely. - You know, for Black folks,
the Black church was everything.
It wasn't just going to church and, you know, for one hour.
Nothing wrong with that.
I like doing church quick, you know.
- You like efficient church, too.
- Yeah, yeah, efficient church.
You know, we was two, three hours.
- Sometimes all day.
- Yeah, you know, hey, that's the one place you'd be.
But, you know, people got things to do now,
places to go, what have you, and so I'm a believer
you can get in and get out and do what you got.
But that's, you know,
that's that time together we got and whatever.
- No, but you were saying how even beyond
just the physical expressiveness
and the things that more, might more traditionally be thought of
that you're getting from church in terms of, okay, yes,
reinforcing belief in a higher power
that things can get better,
especially during periods of enslavement
when things were looking very, very bleak for us.
That gave some glimmer of hope for some people.
But it was also a space of organizing
when you think about the civil rights movement,
when you think about the Underground Railroad.
- It was everything, it was everything.
- It was a strategy center,
because it was one of the few spaces
in which there was the allowance, at times,
right, of Black leadership,
where it wasn't questioned that that was a safe space to go
that then wouldn't draw scrutiny from those who felt like, "Okay,
if they're gathering in this way, what are they doing?"
Right?
So, just so much tied to Black religious spaces
that led to our, and continue to, right,
lend to our shared liberation in that way.
- Yes, absolutely.
You know, it had to be everything.
It was self-contained.
You know, it was wraparound services, man, you know.
- Right, and still is, still is. - Yeah, it still is.
And so that's an interesting dynamic,
you know, being in a multicultural space
and trying to communicate a lot of those things, you know,
because if you're gonna do multiple,
you know, have multiple people from different cultures
come together, obviously, you know,
you're gonna have some tension,
you're gonna have some clashing and what have you.
One thing that I think came to an understanding
as I began to grapple and ask, "Well, who am I?
"What is my purpose?
What am I trying to, what's unique about who I am?"
And the one thing that I learned about myself
is that I'm kind of a bridge-builder guy, you know?
And that's kind of the term that I,
you know, you hear it out there now.
Not everybody can do that work.
But I really struggle with this idea
of going to do the work that I do, because, you know,
and I'm going to tell on myself, a lot of times
when I see a Black person in a majority white space,
they ain't Black to me. - And you're not even
talking about a religious space, just in general.
- Just any space, you know.
That's the first thing, going, you know, like,
"You too comfortable," or whatever.
And, I mean, it'd be for a whole lot of reasons.
That's not, it's not fair to, you know, to think that.
But there's a reason why I came to that, you know,
line, a way of thinking,
because of my encounters with those individuals.
And so, and then, you know,
being a part of African American community,
you hear us talk about, you know, other, you know, people.
You just, it really goes back to the early slave days.
Uncle Tom, house Negro, field Negro,
all that stuff is still pervasive.
You know, it's in our psyche, light-skinned, dark-skinned,
all that crazy stuff, you know?
And so for me, I had to overcome that.
I struggled because it's like, I need my Black people
to know I'm straight, whatever that's supposed to be.
Like, I'm as Black as they come, you know.
[Angela laughs] It's hard to get it out of me
because I brought it with me, you know.
Whatever that means, right?
- But you are saying some great things, because you're right.
The representation of the belief system itself
is sometimes the very thing
that causes people to not wanting to engage,
because when we look at the numbers,
younger generations aren't identifying as religious
in the same way as older generations,
because they've seen a lot.
They've seen even their parents and grandparents
and maybe some ideals that have been shared
that they don't agree with.
And then they are choosing
to adopt different belief systems.
- They're tired of hypocrisy. - Right.
They're choosing to adopt different belief systems
or just say, "I'm spiritual,"
versus belonging to a specific group,
which I completely understand and respect,
because you're like, "I can't get with the ways
in which you're representing this specific belief."
- That's right, yeah.
It's a misrepresentation of who Christ is,
what it's supposed to represent.
And it's devastating when you lose hope.
Then we're in trouble.
And that's why it's so important
to be able to move towards one another.
You know, I just think that Black spirituality
is critical to the American church,
to this country because of what we've been through.
Really, when you think about it,
and we talk about an association with Christ,
well, you know, the Scriptures talk about, you know,
if you wanna reign with him, you gotta suffer with him.
Well, who knows any, there are other people,
we know about suffering, right?
There are people that know about it,
and all of us have our sufferings
in our own individual ways.
But as a group and as individuals,
who's more familiar and acquainted with suffering
than, you know, the Black African American.
It's not a competition.
But what we're trying to say
is that there's something beautiful in that.
And yet we still try to come to the table
releasing all that hatred and resentment,
because that's what the enemy wanted.
When you feel harmed and wronged,
the one thing you wanna do, I gotta get you back, you know.
And that's one of the fears of, what if this thing was inverted?
You know, the same thing happened to us.
Well, that's not, again, how are we gonna reflect Christ?
He didn't do that, you know.
You know, so, but that's hard, that's easier said than done.
And so the ability to release that and what have you,
there's a lot to be learned
from the Black experience, spirituality,
however way you want to call it and what have you.
And, you know, so I want to be a part of that.
And so doing the work that we did,
because more often than not,
you're not gonna get white people coming to Black people.
- Like Black churches, specifically.
- Yeah, like Black churches, which needs to happen.
You know, you need to get outside of--
there's a statement, a friend, a long time--
I think he's passed away now.
But he made an incredible statement.
And I've always remembered,
He said, "Any privilege that people have in their race
"or a particular race,
"and it could be white, Black, brown, yellow, red, whatever,
"if you're the majority culture
"and you have privilege over a minority group,
it's gonna be invisible to you."
We learn how to code switch.
We learn how to adapt, we learn,
you know, it's actually a skill, it's an advantage.
You know, I won't say much more about that,
but, you know, I'll just say this.
I probably know more about than you know about your own self,
you know, because I'm in a position
always studying, always looking, whatever, you know, so.
And then you're self-reflecting on your own self, too, as well,
because you gotta adapt, you gotta be able to,
you know, maneuver through different places
and what have you.
It's just a super skill, you know, and what have you.
And so there's just a lot to be learned
when you take that position of low degree.
- Kind of going back for a second
and kind of drawing the historical reference
of the significance that Black religious spaces and practices
have held for us over time,
would you say, being in the role that you're in now,
that that significance remains,
or, in some ways, has it shifted a bit?
Like, does Black religion and spirituality
not have the same level of significance it once did
when legally we weren't permitted to exist
in the ways that we are to some degree now?
- Yeah, I would say that we're hurting
because we don't have that youth connection, you know.
Well, and I'll just kind of frame it
with my experience here in this city.
You know, that may not necessarily be the case
in other places and what have you.
Say what you will about church.
I always tell people, you know,
it's not the church that's the problem.
It's the people in the church that's the problem.
You know, it's people, right?
One day, you know, depending on what you believe
and what I believe, God is coming back for his church.
He's coming back for his church, right?
So that's gonna be made whole.
But it's people, it's about people.
And what are we doing to make those connections?
And, you know, to your earlier point,
these young people are different.
They got relationships, man.
They have a sensitivity,
a compassion for, you know, their peers.
I mean, whether you're talking about race
or you're talking about gender stuff
or you're talking about LGBTQ+ stuff
or it doesn't matter what.
Everybody's got something, right?
But we've just lost the art
of conversation and communication
and that love and whatever.
And so that connection has to be made first
before you can even get back to a place of, okay, what is truth?
You know, what does it mean to be on the right path?
What is it?
We don't, we can't even have that conversation
unless we're just being people who get other people
and willing to meet people where they are.
And so I would say that the Black church is still rich.
That's not going away.
You know, I think there's good, rich theology, you know.
But there's a whole lot of bad.
You gotta cut through stuff, right?
That's just how it is. - No, that's a good point,
'cause if there is this intergenerational loss,
then over time, it won't,
the Black church as it has been known will cease to exist.
So how does it sustain itself? - That's right.
- And possibly differently in spaces within Wisconsin,
right, within the Midwest,
where there may be smaller populations
that have Black church needs, right?
So if the Black church within, like, a Madison
is smaller to begin with, because the numbers are smaller,
how does it differently sustain itself versus in Atlanta
or, like you mentioned, Alabama,
where it might be a little bit easier
just 'cause there's greater numbers?
So that might speak even to the heightened significance
within a setting where you are such a small percentage.
Your needs might actually be greater,
'cause statistically they are.
What role differently might the Black church play,
you know, in that setting? - You know, and what I do love,
I know that we've talked a lot about, you know,
just kind of the, you know, some of the disadvantages
or the ways through which we're challenged.
But there's also, I think there's an opportunity
for something unique, something beautiful,
something that's actually original or cutting edge,
because we don't necessarily have that critical mass group
or where you just kinda get caught in the cycle
of doing things a certain way and what have you.
I think what I love about this city,
and the one thing that I'm hoping before my time is up,
man, I think we got some people here,
some young people here.
I think God wants to do something
that's so beautiful, so amazing
that would actually be a beacon of light
for cities everywhere,
because it is, it does feel like dearth.
It is more challenging.
So imagine what we could, you know,
create or experience if we could make those connections.
What is that gonna look like, whatever?
It's gonna be different, it's gonna be fresh,
it's gonna be energetic.
And, man, we talk about the spirit.
Then you get that Black church experience
and that spirit thing moving in that, too,
look out, man. [Angela laughs]
You know, I want a piece of that.
I want, that's what, I want to say more.
We got some vision, ideas, and plans.
But boy, that's what we need though.
We need a shift, we need something.
And it's, young people are at the heart of it.
I think every culture, every race,
if you will, has something.
There's something godly, unique, and spiritual
that we all bring to this thing.
The fact that we are segregated most of the time
and everywhere, what have you,
it actually does a disservice to the whole
because we're not able to leverage the gifts,
the talents that each group brings.
And I get it, we're tribal.
Everybody wants to do their things.
You get in your own tribal.
You got echo chambers, you got,
okay, you're gonna have some creativity there,
but it's not gonna be anything like
when you bring that whole thing.
Because no matter how hard I try,
I'm never gonna be white, you know.
Right, never gonna be Black, you know?
You can throw in Latinx, Hispanic, whatever.
There is something rich that each of us bring.
And when you bring that all together
and you start to work that, massage that thing
and work it together,
now you're creating something that smells like heaven.
It smells like glory.
And then we get a, so now I get a piece of you
that I needed that was missing, you know,
because that's, you know, we,
you know, we tend to kind of demonize and put each other,
but there's something good about each of us
that I need that I can't get without you.
And there's something that I got that you need
that you can't get.
And I'll just say for the Black experience,
being out where I am, majority 2020, I was experience--
I was around mostly white folks when COVID happened, and man,
just the things I would hear about,
"Oh, my God, I don't know what we gonna do,
business and all these--"
I mean just, you know, it was crazy, right?
And then I'm sitting there and think, "Pfft!
I'm used to this," you know, all the struggles or whatever.
You know, "How do we," like, we know,
we know what to do that's right.
Man, we pray all night.
You know, we lament, we start fasting.
So how does that inform?
Because that's not something, even though it's a part
of my background, my experience,
it's etymological,
if you will, if you want to describe it that way.
But it don't belong to me, just me alone.
The only reason I'm the only one that got it
because we don't have exposure to one another.
But when we start to come together,
now I can release that in you.
Now, what do you got?
You got resources over there?
Now you can release that to me because I don't care
how many resources you have.
If you're sick and can't get well,
and your mind is messed up and your resources can't pay for it,
what is it gonna do? - Right.
- So I need, so, and what does that group have?
You know, what does this group have, what are we?
And you start to bring that all together
and now you're creating a new culture.
So how do we handle it?
Because, you know, at the core of who we are,
we're God's people.
We're human beings who have decided
that we're supposed to be different and something belongs.
And you don't get that unless we come together.
So, I don't know.
That's just a little bit of, you know, obviously,
you know, you start studying everybody and what, you know,
man, I love being out.
I've learned so much, and I see--
And you know what?
I take all of that.
So now I got what you got.
But if you don't let me. - Also...
- Offer, you ain't gonna get what I got.
That's your loss.
- Is there any final anything you wanna share with us
before we wrap today? - That's it, hey, everybody.
- No? - Thank y'all
for letting me be here. - Thank you, Coliér.
Definitely appreciate your time today.
- All right, thank you so much.
- Black spirituality stands as a testament to the resilience,
creativity, and profound faith
of African-descended communities in the United States.
From its roots in ancestral traditions
to its evolution through the Black church and beyond,
it has been a well of strength, healing, and resistance.
It has shaped justice movements,
provided sanctuary in times of hardship,
and celebrated the fullness of Black joy and identity.
Watch additional episodes and content
at WhyRaceMatters.org.
[gentle music]
- Announcer: Funding for Why Race Matters is provided by
Park Bank,
UnityPoint Health Meriter,
UW Health,
donors to the Focus Fund for Wisconsin programs,
and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.