[bright music]
- Announcer: The following program
is a PBS Wisconsin original production.
- Angela Fitzgerald: In 2020,
the world was forced to confront hard truths
about race and justice after the killing of George Floyd.
His death ignited a global movement,
and it was the catalyst for this digital series,
Why Race Matters,
where we amplify voices that often go unheard.
Now, in season four,
we go deeper, exploring the intersection of race
with history, spirituality,
journalism, and cultural identity.
On this episode,
we're bringing you highlights from the new season:
powerful moments, compelling stories,
and voices that deserve to be heard.
This is Why Race Matters.
- Announcer: Funding for Why Race Matters is provided by
Park Bank,
UnityPoint Health Meriter,
UW Health,
donors to the Focus Fund for Wisconsin Programs,
and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.
- For many, Black communities in the Midwest
are linked to the Great Migration.
However, Black presence in the region dates back much earlier,
even to the era of slavery in the North.
Though slavery was less common and eventually illegal,
it still existed.
In this highlight,
we chat with Professor Christy Clark-Pujara
from UW-Madison's Department of African American Studies
and find out why race matters
with the history of Black Midwesterners.
- Christy Clark-Pujara: Because of the Northwest Ordinance,
which most people learned about in school, right?
That at the dawn of the American Revolution,
you know, you have the Northwest Ordinance
that then becomes the Midwest, right?
And then that expands later.
But the Northwest Ordinance states,
and it's been a minute since I've quizzed myself on this,
are Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Wisconsin, and Minnesota,
right, are carved out of the Northwest Territories,
and the Northwest Territories were part of the concessions
that the British give the Americans at the end
of the American Revolution.
So America is born an empire, right?
Has territories
at the same time it becomes a republic, right?
And so those five states are carved out of those territories.
But those territories already had a history of colonization.
And that history of colonization was Spanish
and then French and then British and then American, right?
And so you're talking about successive colonial experiences.
So if we just think about Wisconsin in the 1720s,
you have Black people that are both free and enslaved,
and enslaved people are usually with the French fur traders
or military people, right?
So you might be accompanying a captain
and you might be in charge of reloading his rifle,
or you might be with a fur trapper.
And that's what you are doing.
You are catching beavers, right?
You are running down foxes,
and then you are stretching those animal skins
that are then being transported back to the East Coast,
that then go across the Atlantic and are sold.
Right, and so it's really varied.
You may be building a fort,
the very first fort in a place, right?
Because that's a colonial exercise.
That's how you claim a space
and try to get control over that space.
So you might literally be building the first roads
and homes and buildings.
And so there wasn't "a" experience.
There was a variety of experiences.
So often when people think about American slavery,
they just immediately go to, like, cotton or tobacco.
But what made enslaved people so incredibly valuable
was the fact that they were people.
So they could be a translator.
They could be a master carpenter.
They could be a fur trapper.
They could lead, mine lead.
They could build roads.
They could keep notes, all kinds of things.
And so you have a really varied experience.
What makes the Midwest unique
is that the experience of enslavement was
sparse and really varied.
You don't have plantation slavery.
- Got it. - Right?
Which is what people often think about
when they think about American slavery.
That was one type,
but that wasn't the only kind, right?
And so you have people
who were doing agricultural work in the Midwest,
but you have people who never did any agricultural work.
- So for the examples that you gave of individuals
who might be,
you said, supporting a captain and loading a rifle,
or fur trade involvement professionals,
were those folks enslaved in doing that work?
Were they free, like, what was their status
and proximity to slavery
as in the way that we understand it?
- During the French period,
we would understand them as chattel.
The French had something called the Code Noir.
So they had a very centralized colonial government,
where there was the law and procedures
of what enslavement was supposed to look like.
Now, whether that was actually happening in the hinterlands...
- Is a different-- - ...was one thing.
- But there was a code. - Okay.
When the British come in, it gets diffuse,
because the British is a lot,
the British system was more decentralized.
And when the American comes in, it gets even more diffuse.
And it gets super confusing
because the Americans in the Northwest Ordinance
say that slavery is prohibited in the Northwest Territories.
- So that's what the law says. - Right.
- Article 6 of the Northwest Ordinance says
that slavery is prohibited in the Northwest Territories.
But there is law and then there is the practice, right?
And now we have to think about who is settling,
what Americans are settling the Northwest Territories
that are basically invading native land,
right, that are involved in land theft,
and claiming it for their own
in the name of the government.
So you have people from places like New England,
and these are people who have grown up
with race-based slavery,
as well as the other northern states
like New York and New Jersey.
And I always just like to kind of remind folks
that slavery dies a really slow
and haphazard death in the North.
Right, everyone knows how slavery ends in the South,
the Civil War.
How does slavery end in the North?
Well, the first thing is you have to,
I have to remind my students almost always
that slavery existed in every colony legally,
and initially in every state legally.
When does New York abolish the institution of slavery?
1828.
When does Rhode Island?
1842.
Connecticut, 1848.
New Jersey, 1865, right?
And so you have people who have grown up in an American republic
in which race-based slavery as a system has been normalized.
It was a system that had been created
during the colonial period,
completely artificial, nothing inevitable about it.
But by the time they're coming along,
they're generations into it,
and they have, see it as being normal.
So these are the people that are settling.
The Americans that are settling the Midwest.
And then you have people that are coming from places
like Missouri and Kentucky and Tennessee.
Slaveholding states.
When we think about our first territorial governor,
Henry Dodge, where is he from?
He's from Missouri.
He's born into a slaveholding family.
Who does he bring with him?
Toby, Tom, Lear, Jim, and Joe,
who he illegally holds in bondage
for nearly a dozen years.
Has them mining lead year-round.
And then you have to think about the military forts,
because, again, this is how you exert your power
as a colonial force.
So if you want to map out areas of slavery in the Midwest,
just look for the first forts, right?
And in Wisconsin, you think of places like Prairie du Chien,
where Fort Crawford was, right?
It had previously been a place
where the French military fort was,
becomes an American fort,
and military officers were actually given an allowance
to hire or buy slaves.
They could have servants or they could have slaves.
- Even though slavery was illegal?
- Yes, but military officers,
one of the perks of being a military officer
was an allowance to pay you back for the use
of your own slave.
Enslaved person, excuse me.
I'm trying to make sure my language stays on point.
We say enslaved people to recognize their humanity.
Nobody is a slave.
Somebody, people are made to,
their labor is stolen.
So we refer to them as enslaved people.
So I'm gonna turn it on you just a little bit.
Who was the president of the Confederacy?
Do you remember? - Ooh, I don't.
- Jefferson Davis, right? - Okay.
- Where's Jefferson Davis's first military posting
before he becomes Jefferson Davis,
president of the Confederacy?
As an officer.
- In the South, I'm assuming.
- In Prairie du Chien. - In Wisconsin.
- Where he brings enslaved people with him
and he is reimbursed for their use.
- So the practice of slavery was clearly a thing.
- It was a thing. - Even though legally,
like you're saying, it wasn't.
And so is that where some of the thinking
around the idea of slavery not existing
in our area comes from? - Yeah, so there's this idea
that slavery doesn't exist in the Midwest.
Now, I don't want people to get the wrong impression.
Slavery was sparse and irregular.
- Okay.
- Especially in the American Midwest.
It is sparse, and it was irregular,
but it persisted well into the 1840s.
And it's because of the cultural comfort with slavery.
Who is coming to these places?
People who grew up in the slaveholding American republic.
America is born a slaveholding republic.
- And it's not--
- Most of the presidents are slaveholders.
This isn't something notorious or strange to anyone.
- It's not as though when people move,
they're like, "Okay, we're done with that.
"We're going to not do the thing that we've been steeped in...
- Let's do it, right?
- ...up until this point of my life."
Let's continue it, yeah. - Absolutely.
So the practice of slavery in the Midwest
in the American colonial period rests on community consent,
not legal consent, but cultural and community consent.
Because when does Henry Dodge, our first territorial governor,
finally "emancipate" these people
who weren't supposed to be held in bondage in the first place?
When it becomes a political liability
because statehood is becoming imminent
- So we need to-- - And those votes are coming up.
So, okay, now I need to do this.
And he actually writes emancipation papers.
You can go to UW-Platteville, to the Wisconsin Room,
ask for the papers of Henry Dodge,
and see a manumission document that was brought to the county
as if it were normal practice.
Right, in which he says
that he had promised to free them at a convenient time.
Well, they were never was supposed to be held in bondage.
- In the first place. - You weren't at a fort.
You held them with community consent.
You're emancipating people
who weren't supposed to be held in bondage in the first place.
But your community allowed it and your neighbors allowed it.
- It's safe to assume there was no pushback
or no response to him carrying out this practice
that could be seen as, like, "noble"
and the right thing to do, even though
he shouldn't have been doing it in the first place.
- Well, there were people who were critical of it.
- Okay. - But he continued to do it.
And they made him very rich, right?
He was mining lead year-round with these five people, right?
And that's what allows him to buy plots of land
and become a prospector and have a successful mine
and become Henry Dodge.
And now, my students just know Henry Dodge as the,
you know, hardy founding father
who the state park is named after.
That the pavilion is named after,
that the library is named after,
and they've never heard of Toby, Tom, Lear, Jim, and Joe.
- In America, identity is complex.
Terms like Black and African American
are often used interchangeably, but carry distinct meanings.
And for many, questions like, "Where are you from?"
add another layer, reflecting history,
migration, and belonging.
In this highlight,
we talked with Harry Kiiru and Naman Siad
as we unpack why race matters
when it comes to Black versus African American identity.
Like, do you appreciate when people are inquisitive
because they feel like there's something different,
and I don't quite know how to ask, but I wanna know.
Like, what is the best way
that you appreciate people inquiring about your identity?
Or just don't ask me and just leave me alone?
- Is that-- [Harry laughs]
That's also an okay answer.
- Naman Siad: I think the way it's asked, like,
"What are you?" I think would send me off.
I think it just would...
It wouldn't, it wouldn't be received well.
I think especially just wearing a hijab,
you get questions all the time.
I remember my first semester here at UW-Madison,
my lab partner just assumed that I didn't speak English,
and so he would just kind of gesture during lab
and like, speak really slowly and stuff
and then eventually asked me, like,
in a way, like, "What are you?"
Instead of just, "Oh, like, where are you from?" or...
And I think, even for me, I struggled because I,
obviously I'm, like, tied to my Somali heritage
through my parents, but if I went back to Somalia
or went to Somalia for the first time,
I'd be labeled as American.
There's really nothing about--
My Somali is very broken.
I don't have the lived experience of living there,
and so I think I would get upset if people assumed
that I wasn't fluent in English, because I think it just,
it's the only identity that I really had
because English was the language that I was most fluent in.
I was born and raised here, Madison is where I grew up.
And so that question, that othering
used to bother me a lot more when I was younger.
But then, now I feel like I,
if someone asks me in a respectful tone,
I'm fine with it, but it is,
it is interesting because it does put you in a position
where you're othered,
and if you haven't become comfortable with being othered,
it really does kind of take you
out of feeling like you belong,
especially if you're a young child growing up in Madison
and you're the only person of color in your entire class,
and you're trying to hold on to being just like everybody else.
I think the older you get,
you realize how identity is so much more complicated
and intersectional than just what some,
like, 10th grader thinks of you in your class.
- For me, one of the issues, as you brought up, Naman,
is about the question, the questioning.
- Angela: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- One of my favorite places to visit
is a monastery in Middleton.
And I love this place 'cause it's quiet.
And I could just, I...
Having a day of solitude and silence is just,
it just fills me up.
And I remember being there not that long ago.
And this person, of course,
decided to rudely interrupt my quiet and peace
by greeting me, and I said, "Hi."
And I talked a little bit and he's like,
"Oh yes, I noticed you have an accent,"
which is fairly typical.
And the next question is, "So where are you from?"
[chuckles]
And for a while, you know, I would say things like,
"Oh, I'm from Detroit, or I'm from LA.
I'm from, like..."
- They're like, "No." - Harry: "No, no, no.
But where are you really from?"
And that question of, "Where are you from?"
followed by, you know.
This person ended up saying, "Your English is so good."
It was fascinating to me
because it's not something that I've encountered once or twice.
It's a very regular occurrence.
And I think part of how,
I'm gonna use a very big word that, you know,
this might throw off some people.
Part of being, you know, being part of empire.
So U.S. is empire, is not having to think of others
in relation to you.
You know, like, as empire, you know,
you don't have to learn about anyone else.
- Angela: Right.
Everyone else gets to learn about empire.
And so the assumption then that I,
my English has to be good does not take into account
that, you know, Kenya was a former colony
where we had to learn English so that we could be part of empire.
For the immigrant coming here,
what is fascinating is to encounter
people who claim to speak English,
but their English is fascinating
because it's not textbook English.
Which is what we grew up with. [laughs]
- Angela: Right. - So, so, yes.
So someone would say, "Oh, your English is so good."
Yes, because I say the word "yes" and not "yeah."
[laughs]
- Angela: So your English is technically more accurate
than native English speakers.
I hear you, not disagreeing. - Harry: Much like going
to the UK where you discover,
oh, these former colonizers do not speak the English
that they made us learn.
So language then becomes, you know, again,
another way of othering, where it is,
you're always reminded that you're from somewhere else.
That when you encounter empire in its fullness,
that it, that its job is to remind you
that at some point, you have to go back to where you came from.
And so, that this can never be home,
no matter how long.
And so it fascinates me.
I'll meet people who have lived in the U.S.,
you know, for 30, 40, 50 years.
And they're always like, "Yeah,
"someday I'll go back home to Ghana,
I'll go back home to Nigeria."
I'm like, "Wait.
When are you going home?" [laughs]
Yes, so yeah.
So it is an interesting question in terms of what--
And I don't think there's a good way to ask that question
because what it's trying to get after is difference,
that you're different.
And yeah, so no matter how,
you know, we won't sugar coat it
with our liberal logics and ideas.
It is, it still gets at difference.
Yeah, yeah.
- Which, I think there's a way people can ask
or what's driving the inquiry around difference.
I think you can pick up on
if it's coming from a place of,
I perceive you as not belonging here
versus, like, a true curiosity,
or there might be a connection here
and I wanna explore that further.
And I say that because being physically within Madison,
within the state of Wisconsin, the data suggests, right,
shows that just lumping us all under the Black category,
we are a small minority, relatively within the state.
Going to other states,
other cities, that's not the case.
And so those questions
wouldn't necessarily emerge in the same way.
Like, I think when I fly home to D.C.,
Reagan National Airport,
and I'm seeing loads of women who look just like you,
who are from Ethiopia or other places,
and they're looking at me like they,
especially when we just had masks,
you know, 'cause of COVID, they're looking at my eyes.
They're like, "Are you from...?" I'm like, "No, I'm sorry.
I'm not, I'm-- [laughs]
I wish I were, but no, I took the test. I'm not.
But...
So the question feels to me, it comes from a different place
that feels like, "Oh, where, are we...?
Is there a similarity or connection here,"
versus "Wait a minute.
"You don't look like how the rest of us look.
Where are you from?"
And granted, I don't wanna assume, right,
the intent behind people's questioning.
Maybe there is a genuine curiosity
'cause that's just our human nature.
But I think there is something about
the question that can come across as negative.
And I appreciate you all sharing your experiences,
'cause that can challenge those of us
who ask those questions to think about,
where is that question coming from,
and how could it be framed differently
so as not to be off-putting to the person
that you're asking said question to.
So I appreciate that.
Navigating Black culture, what has that been like?
And I do want to just add the disclaimer
that I am defaulting to the term Black,
because I personally prefer that term over African American.
I mean, everyone has their preferences.
I know some people feel differently
about African American versus Black.
Black, to me, just denotes
a broader connection to the diaspora.
It doesn't feel as limiting, so I like that.
And African American feels a little bit sanitized to me.
So I kind of push up against that.
But again, to each his own, right?
But that's just the term I choose to use.
And however you all would like to use
that terminology, feel free. - I think it's a good question.
You know, as I said early on,
I think part of the challenge is recognizing that
my cultural memory and history is much shorter
in terms of being in the U.S.
So part of the reason for that, again, as I said,
you know, in coming to grad school was to be able
to understand myself better and my sons better,
and so, or to help them, again, you know, have the tools
to navigate what it means for them to be Black
because they're born and raised in the U.S.
And so Africa for them is only in relation to their dad,
and whether they choose to pick it up or not,
you know, that's up to them.
So, but I remember
I was sharing early on in being in LA
and came across these two Black young men.
I had only been in LA for about a month.
And I remember these two guys speaking.
They're clearly talking to me,
but I had no clue what they were saying.
And...
And, you know, it went back and forth where I'm like, "Huh?"
I have no idea what is happening.
And at some point they're like, "I guess
you're not understanding what is happening."
And so they walked away.
And the ways I like to think of that moment
as an invitation into Blackness.
And at the same time, Blackness becomes
taken away from me because I am not,
I don't understand what is happening.
And I think that moment
comes to play out in different ways
in my life, living in the U.S. in that
my immigration usually
is always at the forefront of how I navigate my Blackness.
And so yes, there, you know, I've learned a lot of,
you know, Black history
in terms of just understanding what I'm,
what I am both thought of,
or someone is suggesting that I am,
or that I am part of a history and a genealogy.
And at the same time, for solidarity.
Because again, as I said,
at some point-- not at some point.
For me, I know where home is.
It is Kenya.
And so my primary being in the U.S.
is much more of an immigrant
and a global Blackness in that sense.
And so, so solidarity for me then becomes very important
in saying I may not understand necessarily what
your journey is like as a Black American
because I am an immigrant.
At the same time,
because I am racialized in the same ways
that you are racialized,
that I can stand in solidarity against, you know,
white supremacy that seems to, you know,
come down on us wherever it is that we're coming from.
In the same way that,
you know, my Black American brother, sister
cannot understand what it means to be an African immigrant
because Africa within a Western consciousness
will always be one of negation.
Africa will always be a continent with, you know,
wars, with famine, with disease, or exotic.
You know, it's this place of, you know, animals.
And so there's absolutely no way
for someone to understand this position of Africa
much in the same way.
And one of the reasons why I do notice that
a lot of African immigrants will end up
being friends with other immigrants from other countries
is because we do,
there's a way this, you know,
migration allows us to be able to empathize
and sympathize with each other.
We know what it means to be asked,
you know, about how we speak, how we dress, the foods we make,
those kinds of, or even the suggestion that,
you know, we can go back to wherever we come from.
So...
So, so there's a sort of a tension
that then exists, and that's hard.
And it's a tension because it's hard to unravel it.
Yeah, it really is hard to unravel it.
And I think that's part of what white supremacy does,
is create that tension
that we all have to somehow inhabit.
And yeah, it's icky.
- Black spirituality in the United States
is deeply rooted in the resilience and creativity
of African-descended communities.
But where did the Black church originate,
and what are its impacts on topics such as slavery,
civil rights, and Black joy?
In this highlight, we'll explore why race matters
with Pastor Coli?r McNair
when it comes to Black Spirituality.
- Pastor Coli?r McNair: I can actually enjoy music
that moves me and inspires me,
and I could sing it to God.
I can give him the glory.
And so, you know,
that's something that I think is unique,
something that you may not necessarily get in a place
like a Madison that doesn't necessarily have those outlets,
those channels through which
inspirational music can be heard.
You know, you go to other major cities like Milwaukee
down the road or a Chicago or Minneapolis,
critical mass of African Americans.
So there's more culture, there's more nuance there.
And so you're more apt to be exposed to something that,
you know, rap, hip-hop, or what have you,
but you hear the positive message
and yet something that's,
you know, captures the imagination of a young person,
you know, that could have a serious impact on,
you know, just what you listen to and, you know,
and we know that matters, you know?
I mean, just what you put in your spirit and what have you.
So I don't know, I don't know.
I think I forgot what your question is. [both laugh]
- No, it's fine.
So I was asking about your more so
defining what Black religious traditions for you
have looked like for those who might not be familiar,
because maybe they didn't grow up in the space
that you grew up, or they may not identify as Black.
I'm just curious because as we were saying,
that Black people as a whole in our country
identify more religiously.
- Yes. - Regardless as to what
that religion may be.
So there's something about the shared experiences
that we have as Black people in the U.S.
that draws us to this connection to a higher power.
- Yes. - And music plays
a significant role in that.
You're right. - Absolutely.
- There are some people who are like,
"I'm not down with the whole church thing.
But that music, though." - Yep, yep, yep, yep.
- I can get with the music because of how it makes me feel.
- That's right.
- And how that just brings us together.
It's just such a great unifier.
Even without having a religious identity or label
that you might attach yourself to.
And that is something you're more likely to experience
if you're in a city where there are more people
that look like you. - That's right.
- There might be more musicians or just more...
- That's right. - ...options.
Like, it's a little trickier here.
And so kind of bringing us to the space of
not only do you have a set of beliefs
that you grew up in and identify with,
but professionally, you also took on a lane of,
I'm gonna do this work of being a pastor,
being a minister. - Yes.
- So tell us about kind of just your journey
to taking on that identity
and then what that looked like for you
when you started that work here in Wisconsin.
- Well, just to kind of put a ribbon
on your question and then transition into that.
You're right that for me,
that Black African American experience in the spirituality.
You said something about just that communal aspect.
And you know, we did a survey recently out at, you know,
our church maybe a couple of years ago.
And there's something about most of your communities of color
that there's this communal connection that we all have
and their strength.
And, you know, we all know that anybody
that remembers COVID knows how
devastating isolation, you know,
to be isolated and what have you.
This idea of individualism okay, I get it.
But it really is about community.
It's about that connection.
And the one beautiful thing about,
you know, even music, when you think about
the spirituality piece,
you know, when you go back to our ancestors
and singing songs like "Follow the Drinking Gourd"
or " Wade in the Water" and what have you.
For our culture,
music is intertwined along with preaching
and all these other dynamics.
It's intertwined with expression, you know.
It's something because when you didn't have a place
you can go to be yourself or to be seen or heard,
the church became that place through which
that expression can take place.
And you know, the thing about just any of us
when we go through things,
especially when you're experiencing trauma
and what have you, and we're talking about
the Black experience and spirituality and what have you.
And we, you know, I imagine people have an idea,
you know, this country and whatever.
We talk about why race matters, right?
And because we're still talking about it, right?
- Absolutely. - We live in a country.
We have people think it's not an issue, right?
And when the reality is this country was built
on racial discrimination, bias, prejudice, and all of that.
So when you have a people that's a part of that.
And centuries of laws or decades of laws
and what have you that didn't really allow
for them to be seen and expression,
that had to get out some way.
That trauma had to get out someplace.
And the beautiful thing about the church
and the music and preaching, the testimonies,
and the community, and what have you,
that was the place where we were able to cry out or lament,
let all of that happen.
And it looks crazy to people on the outside.
But man, what's crazier, being in church,
worshiping God like that,
or being on the outside tearing up stuff, you know?
- Absolutely, and there are even health benefits to, you know,
having a faith, having a belief in a higher power
that things can get better.
Like, psychologically. - That's right, that's right.
- There is an impact there.
And when you talk about the expressiveness,
I guess a funny thought that came to mind for me
was it wasn't until adulthood
when I visited other church spaces
that I didn't realize there were churches that weren't loud.
- Church was always loud. - Yes.
- Like, it was loud with music, it was loud with the singing,
it was loud with the shouting, the dancing.
Like, everything was loud because you're right.
There may have been very little
alternative settings in which
that what needed to come out could come out.
- Yes. - Where I could cry.
Where I could do all the things that reflect,
this is what I've been experiencing up
to this one day of the week potentially.
- Girl, you gotta talk. - I can get it all out
and get what I need. - That's right.
- To keep it pushing for the week that's coming up.
So beyond just maybe what
religion might mean for other groups
who have not experienced oppression in the same way,
when you bring that into the mix,
then religion may take on a different meaning and purpose.
- Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
I mean, the toxicity of trauma and, you know,
oppression, disenfranchisement, all of that,
that stuff will kill you, it will destroy you.
You know, whether it's mentally, emotionally,
psychologically is mentally or whatever, you know,
relational dynamics or whatever, so the church--
And things have, you know, changed a lot.
But it was so instrumental
and still is. - Absolutely.
- You know, for the Black, for Black folks,
the Black church was everything.
It wasn't just going to church and, you know, for one hour.
Nothing wrong with that.
I like doing church quick, you know?
- You like efficient church too. - Yeah, yeah, efficient church.
You know, we was two, three hours.
- Sometimes all day. - Yeah.
You know, hey, that's the place to be.
But, you know, people got things to do now,
places to go, what have you, and so I'm a believer in
you can get in and get out and do what you gotta.
But that's, you know.
That's that time together with God and whatever.
- No, but you were saying how even beyond just
the physical expressiveness and the things
that more, might more traditionally be thought of
that you're getting from church in terms of okay,
yes, reinforcing belief in a higher power
that things can get better. - Yes.
- Especially during periods of enslavement
when things were looking very, very bleak for us.
That gave some glimmer of hope for some people.
But it was also a space of organizing.
You think about the civil right movement.
- That's what I was saying.
- You think about the Underground Railroad.
- It was everything. - Yes.
- It was everything. - It was a strategy center.
- Yes, yes.
- Because it was one of the few spaces
in which there was the allowance, at times, right,
of Black leadership where it wasn't questioned,
that that was a safe space to go,
that then wouldn't draw scrutiny from those who felt like, okay,
if they're gathering in this way, what are they doing, right?
So just so much...
There is so much tied to Black religious spaces.
- Yes, absolutely.
- That led to our-- and continue to, right?
Lend to our shared liberation in that way.
- Yes, absolutely, you know, it had to be everything.
It was self-contained.
You know, it was wraparound services, man.
- Right, and still is. - Yeah, it still is.
- It still is.
- And so that's an interesting dynamic.
You know, being in a multicultural space
and trying to communicate a lot of those things, you know,
because if you're gonna do multiple, you know,
have multiple people from different cultures
come together, obviously, you know,
you're gonna have some tension,
you're gonna have some clashing and what have you.
What's unique about who I am,
and the one thing that I learned about myself
is that I'm kind of a bridge-builder guy.
- Reentry after incarceration is a critical issue.
Black individuals in Wisconsin face incarceration rates
that far exceed those of other racial groups.
How do these individuals feel upon release
as they reenter society after prison?
What challenges do they encounter
regarding employment and housing?
We speak with former reentry specialist Dynae Saba
about why race matters
when it comes to incarceration and reentry.
So, Dynae, tell us about the significance
of your work with the reentry population,
and especially considering the stark disparities
that exist in our state.
- Dynae Saba: With our population,
it is evident that from education, from high school,
you can see the disparities between the races.
There are major gaps within our housing market,
within home ownership.
Like, it's evident in every single aspect in our community.
If you look at the population of Black individuals
and that reside and make up Wisconsin,
and then you look and compare that to the population
that is incarcerated, it is overwhelming.
So then that leads you to wonder,
- Why?
- Is this community being overpoliced?
Is this community lacking resources
that other communities have received?
It's a systemic pattern, and it's going to continue
over and over again until there are enough resources
and services put in place
to prevent those reoccurring patterns.
- Absolutely.
I think one of the reminders of that,
and I forget what setting I was in,
but they were looking at a map of the state
and they were using kind of like those heat measures
to show, like, where concentrations
of certain populations based on race.
I remember them calling out Green Bay,
and, like, there was a part of Green Bay
that looked like it had a a significant Black population,
but it was a prison.
They were like, "This is where
the Black people in Green Bay are."
They happen to be in this particular,
you know, prison setting.
So examples like that, like you said,
reinforce this notion of,
there are Black people in Wisconsin,
but there is an overrepresentation
of Black people in Wisconsin
within the criminal justice system.
Why is that and what can we do about it?
From your end, it's the, how are we transitioning folks out
to avoid any sort of interaction in the future
with the criminal justice system?
But that's part of the solution.
But that's, there's the foundational systems work
that we still have to require people pay attention to
to avoid even the need for someone like you.
- Early childhood education on up.
Like, there needs to be changes.
The education system, there needs to be changes.
The post-graduation resources,
there needs to be changes.
Mental health resources need to be changed.
Accessibility in general, it needs to--
And I don't have all the answers,
but I would love, I would love,
if anybody wants to invite me to sit down
and have a meeting and discuss this,
please call me.
Saba Empowerment Strategies.
Because it is,
it's evident and it's consistent and it's sad.
And no matter how much we discuss it,
it seems to just continue to reoccur.
It's just like a wheel and it keeps going.
The challenges that I see frequently with folks
are repeating those family patterns.
You know, trauma happened,
trauma is repeated, and not knowing how to break the cycle.
So breaking cycles,
there needs to be a resource for identifying
and assisting with it.
And I don't even know what that looks like.
But systemically, absolutely, there are major gaps
between the races.
And as a person who is biracial,
I see that more than most,
living on both spectrums and seeing both spectrums.
But the support,
if people are looking to contribute and assist,
like, supporting in the way that you can fit in, is appreciated.
Being an advocate, educating people
that think that this is nonexistent and that say,
"I don't see any color." [laughs]
Because that is problematic in itself.
I encourage a lot of folks
to just have meaningful conversations
and be open to learning and exposing yourself to things,
because that belief that this isn't a thing and that,
you know, those disparities are over
and slavery was hundreds of years ago.
No, that's not a thing.
It's still reoccurring and it's still impacting us to this day
and will continue to.
- Journalism can be a challenging field
for many Black journalists.
For some, it's a balancing act, navigating authenticity
while meeting the expectations of viewers and listeners.
In this highlight,
journalists Earl Arms and Enjoyiana Nururdin
discuss why race matters for Black journalists
when it comes to authenticity and identity.
- Enjoyiana Nururdin: And representation includes
your looks, like, being-- I wanted to be a TV girlie.
So I had the opportunity to intern
for the Today Show in New York and I was like,
"Ah, oh, my gosh!"
And I was so happy and so excited.
And then when I came back to Madison,
I worked at a TV station
and it was a totally different experience.
And I did not expect that experience.
But there are a lot of things that I learned about
the politics of the newsroom
that play a role into racism and race and journalism,
and even the community that I'm from.
That was just a totally different experienc, so.
That was something else I wanted to add.
But... [laughs] - Angela: Mmm.
'Cause TV is different.
- Earl Arms: Yeah, it is. - TV is different.
- It's a different monster. - Earl: That's real.
- Angela: Absolutely. - Enjoyiana: Yeah.
- And that's, yeah, when I first kind of stepped
into this journalism space,
it was interesting 'cause, again,
I don't have a background in any of this.
I was doing community work
and the opportunity presented itself.
But I remember getting some feedback
because I stepped into the role of hosting a show
that did not have a host prior.
It was just all voiceovers and like,
produced stuff, didn't have a person to, like,
guide the viewer along the episode.
So they introduced me as the host,
and one of the pieces of feedback
that someone wrote in and said,
"When I saw that Angela was gonna be the host,
"I thought it was gonna be different,
but she's all right."
And I'm thinking like, "Okay, so what,
what are they actually..." - What do you mean by that?
[Earl laughs] - Was I, was I not quite,
like, should I've worn, like, bigger earrings?
Been more of, like, the stereotype, or like,
what are you actually trying to say?
But it was interesting,
just kind of navigating that space of acknowledging,
I'm a Black person that's on TV, on public television,
in a very white state.
And I am in some case low key, but not, aggressively Black.
Like, my hair is what it is.
I mean, like, I am just who I am.
- Earl: Ooh, okay. - So I'm not changing that.
So this is me,
but also, yes, I'm here to show the state off.
So it was just, it's been very interesting.
And sometimes, that still comes back up in terms of stories
or just feedback.
But I will say, the team here has been very supportive of me.
I have not felt like I needed to change anything about myself,
other than the pronunciation of certain cities
that I didn't know that's how it was said.
Say the correct, 'cause I'm not originally from Wisconsin,
so they had to fix how I said certain things.
Other than that, I felt like I could show up as my full self,
but it was still navigating what I felt
like I was being perceived as by the core audience.
- I faced the battle of facial hair going into TV
because I wanted to--
I basically had this facial hair since early 20s, right?
I could grow a full beard when I was in grad school.
But I wanted to keep it.
Not necessarily because of aesthetics, but really--
Well, yeah, it was aesthetics, right?
You know, Black man, I get razor bumps, right?
So, you know, I wasn't trying to deal with that, right?
But, you know, when I was coming up in TV,
everyone's clean-shaven.
You know, you gotta be clean-shaven.
You gotta look the part.
I've had consultants,
I've had people tell me directly, you know,
"In the Black community, beards might matter,
"but you're not anchoring,
you're not reporting to the Black community."
I've had other consultants tell me,
like, "Your beard threatens me.
"When you don't have your facial hair,
"I don't feel threatened by you.
But when I see a beard, I'm threatened by you."
I'm like, "Okay, just call me Willie Horton, why don't you?"
You know, just, like, dag.
Like, I fit the description?
Like, is that what you're saying, like?
- Very specific feedback. - No, yeah, that's TV.
It's so subjective, right?
It's about, you know, the colors you're wearing,
how you look, the facial expressions you're making.
You mentioned, you know, pronouncing words or,
you know, the way you enunciate.
I mean, they're looking at every little detail,
and I get it because it's an investment, right?
But I mean, we're talking, like, my humanity here.
We're talking humanity again.
So in thinking about that, it's like, yeah,
I don't want to be, you know, the angry Black man.
But also, you know, I don't wanna have to,
you know, walking around or,
you know, be shown on television having everyone see me
and my face is all bumpy and I gotta, you know,
throw on all this makeup over all these bumps
- Right. - Earl: And then, you know,
it makes it that much more unhealthy for my skin.
So, you know, you gotta kind of fight those battles, too.
And, you know, I like to say I, you know, kind of paved the way
a little bit. - That's good.
- 'Cause now you're seeing people with facial hair
and all types of stuff.
So I'm like, look, okay, I'm glad.
I'm glad, right, you know?
That we've kind of evolved from a point of everyone
kind of looking cookie cutter and making a Black man
or even Black women in cases, you know, with the hair,
try and look the part of someone that,
you know, doesn't have, what is it?
I forget the type of hair you call it,
but, you know, we got, you know, curly hair, I think.
What is it, C2 or I forget what--
- Oh, you talking about the grade.
The four Cs and the grades. - Earl: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- The 3Cs and the... - Earl: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
The grade, whatever grade of hair we have.
Right, you know, it grows back into the skin.
So just really thinking about it from that sense
and you know, just, you know,
trying to represent in that way too.
- Yeah, I'm unapologetically Black and I can't hide it.
And it's funny that you mentioned
you don't wanna be the angry Black man.
Sometimes I wanna be the angry Black woman.
Because what are you gonna say about my hair?
It looks the way it looks,
but you know, I do my job and I did the best that I could.
And so it's a shame that society,
and I know we're talking about Wisconsin,
but, you know, it's a shame that Black people,
Black journalists are scrutinized so much
that if you, if your hair isn't done,
you don't even feel like doing anything
because you just don't feel presentable.
That goes into presentability politics,
that goes into colorism and the three Bs
and the three Cs and all of that stuff.
And so I'm grateful that
I've gotten to a place in my personalhood,
my personal individual Enjoyiana that I'm gonna wear my braids,
I'm gonna wear my hair how I want to.
I actually try to do more braids, more protective styles,
because what I'm not gonna do is be late to a meeting
'cause I need to re-flatiron my hair.
That's not gonna-- That just doesn't make sense.
Then I'm known for being late for whatever.
So you're gonna get me, all of me, 100% of me.
And I think that it took a while to get there,
but, you know, pave the way.
- Absolutely, I appreciate both of you
being trailblazers in that way.
In terms of, "I'm gonna show up authentically as myself,
"and I'll work through what that may mean for you,
"but ultimately, you're gonna get the best of me
"if you allow me to show up as me.
'Cause that's who you want, I assume, right?"
- Earl: Exactly, exactly. - You asked me to be here.
So don't take away from that experience by then
trying to control how it is that I show up.
So, awesome.
And I know earlier in our prior conversation,
we were talking about acknowledging our own identities
and how that can show up in terms of the work that we do.
So I know sometimes it's references
like a positionality statement.
So, like, what are all the things about me?
Sorry, I'm putting my researcher hat a little bit,
but, like, as a researcher, I'm all these things.
And that's gonna influence what I'm interested in studying
and how I approach what I'm trying to study.
So I'm a Black woman in the Midwest
who identifies as cis, hetero, and dot dot dot dot dot.
So in thinking about...
I mean, I know we've been talking about race, right?
You as Black people, but also, there's privilege.
There's other sorts of things that also influence
how we show up and do what we do.
So how do you personally manage
or at least create awareness around, like,
"Yes, I am a representative.
"I'm doing things and also in service to my community,
"but I'm not the sole voice,
the sole, like, reflection of my entire community."
- Just not being shy about it.
I know people who, especially in TV because we can be so...
What's the word I'm thinking of?
You know, kind of be full of ourselves, right?
You know, to where, you know,
we don't want to talk to anyone else.
Or, you know, we made it, we're in front of the camera.
You know, anyone else is like,
you know, take an appointment or, you know,
what have you, just being that type of person, but--
- Oh, that's how I'm supposed to be acting?
- Yeah, they didn't tell you? - Okay.
I'm gonna work on that, I didn't get that memo.
[Earl laughs] So now I know, okay.
- No, but I think really, just like you mentioned NABJ,
or, you know, just having younger people
who want to, who may see you, right?
'Cause I mean, I think about people
who I used to watch, right?
Talking about representation and how important that is,
thinking about people I watched and who I reached out to
and people who poured into me, right?
So why wouldn't I pour into the next generation, right?
So, yeah, I mean, there's room for all of us to eat, right?
There's not, you know, just one plate.
Only one of us can, you know, have this job or,
you know, be in this space and there's no room for anyone else.
No, we all have a purpose
because we all bring a different perspective.
Yeah, we're the same skin color.
Yeah, our hair may be the same texture.
We may even wear the same clothes or, you know,
have all those similarities.
But our experiences
and how we take in information is different.
How we tell stories are different, right?
So even the diversity within that
is so important within our community
to where it can't just be myself having the lone opinion
for Black people within a particular community, right?
So yeah, I think just really encouraging others,
empowering others to not only come up in this space,
but to be able to be their authentic selves
in this space as well.
- Yeah, that's really important.
I think I like to use that in my interviews as well,
because I let everybody kind of,
you know, decompress like, "It's okay," you know?
And I like that you mentioned, you know,
different parts of your identity because I ask everyone,
okay, name, pronouns, how do you pronounce your name?
'Cause I know what it's like for people
to not know how to say my name.
So I try to give people that same grace and say, you know,
you're allowed to be yourself.
And then, I think sometimes it's a little bit
of compartmentalizing where,
okay, I know that this article is about this.
I'm gonna have to talk about this.
But then that's when we have that conversation and say,
Okay, in the future, what can we do?
Or how would you like to go about this in the future?
And I think that gives space for people to also not feel
like they have to have it all together at the same time,
because as Black people, like I said,
we have so much scrutiny on us.
We feel like we have to be 100% all the time,
and that's not realistic.
And so I think giving my sources
the opportunity to be themselves
and then also give me other connections.
Who else would you recommend that I talk to?
Because you may have a network in another community
that maybe I'm not a part of.
And I think that that also helps bridge those gaps too.
So then everybody knows, "Oh, wait.
"You know such-and-such?
I know such-and-such."
Like we were talking about the stuff earlier.
And so, it's just cool because it's like,
the world is really as big as you make it,
and it's really as small as you make it, so.
Gotta pop your bubble and be a part of the world.
- Because we all cousins, right? - Angela: We all cousins.
[Earl laughs] When it comes down to it.
- Enjoyiana: Hey Cos!
Like you talk about the plate, like, sometimes it's really,
you want me to get a plate for you 'cause I understand.
You know, like sometimes making those connections.
And so people have been asking me, like,
"Do you know anybody, or can I talk to you?"
And that's, I was like, "Oh, my gosh."
Now I'm the person connecting people.
And it was that weird moment of like, wow, young adulting.
But you know, our generations are starting
to blend a lot more.
And I think talking about social media,
I think social media also helps to do that.
- Angela: I love that. - Yeah.
- It's only gonna increase as you get older.
- Enjoyiana: I know, I know. - Just so you know.
- You're the go-to person, I love that.
How do you all take care of you?
- I just learned that my company
has an employee assistance program,
so I will be taking advantage.
And also just, I try to do a lot
of scheduling and time management so that,
okay, when I'm working, I'm working,
which doesn't help when you have two phones,
but when I'm working, I'm working.
And then when I'm not, I'm not.
And I've started to feed my inner child
and play video games and watch cartoons
and go cycling and do really silly things,
but things that genuinely fill me with joy.
And that does branch outside of politics.
It does branch outside of the community a little bit.
So, like, getting the chance to go travel
and just not plan everything.
Like, I have to completely turn my brain off sometimes.
It helps to have a good support system,
helps to have good family and friends
who know that you're doing politics,
who know that you're doing stuff,
who sometimes you have to tell 'em,
"Don't talk to me about work.
"Don't ask me about this.
"I know we wanna talk about it,
but I don't wanna talk about it."
And sometimes, I have to get out of that habit
of just shutting down as well.
So I mentioned I was in grad school,
I got therapy, and it was really,
really helpful to talk to someone.
And she was a Black woman, and I was like,
"Oh, my gosh, this is so cool."
And so having those systems
where you also can find mentorship and other people,
regardless of what their identities are,
but just to decompress and say, "I wanna talk about this,"
or "I don't wanna talk about this."
And I think part of that too,
is learning when you need to take a break,
because there was a period in my career where I was like,
"I am not gonna be a journalist right now."
And I had to--
I was staying with family in Illinois
and I was working at a bookstore,
and it was so much fun and I made the best connections.
But I really needed that, my spirit needed that.
Because when I went back into journalism,
I was able to go 100, I was able to be my best self.
And so finding those opportunities
to still do what you love to do,
but still finding the time to consume other forms of content
and also unplug and not watch anything
and not do anything related to journalism.
- In this episode,
we've shared important stories and perspectives,
but there's so much more to explore.
You can watch more episodes at whyracematters.org
or on PBS Wisconsin's YouTube channel.
Thank you for joining us.
We appreciate you being part of the conversation.
[bright music]
- Announcer: Funding for Why Race Matters is provided by
Park Bank,
UnityPoint Health Meriter,
UW Health,
donors to the Focus Fund for Wisconsin Programs,
and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.