- The following program
is a PBS Wisconsin original production.
- Hi, I'm Angela Fitzgerald.
This is a special presentation of Why Race Matters,
a PBS Wisconsin digital series
elevating issues affecting Black communities.
In the next half hour,
we'll present clips from one-on-one conversations
featured in the series.
To see more, you can visit
pbswisconsin.org/ whyracematters.
This first excerpt
comes from an episode about Black mental health.
Racial trauma is constant in Black communities,
but how have events such as the killing of George Floyd,
Breonna Taylor, and the shooting of Jacob Blake,
and countless others added to this trauma?
What about the barrage of media coverage, YouTube clips,
and social media posts showing Black people dying?
I sat down with a therapist
to talk about Why Race Matters when it comes to mental health.
? ?
- Funding for Why Race Matters is provided by
CUNA Mutual Group,
Park Bank,
Alliant Energy,
Madison Museum of Contemporary Art,
Focus Fund for Wisconsin programming,
and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.
- The impact of racism on Black communities
is not a matter of obscurity,
but one of life or death.
A 2018 study shows that media coverage,
police brutality, and Black death
indirectly affects the health of Black people across the country
with the mental health burden comparable to that
of chronic illnesses like diabetes.
The president of the American Psychological Association,
Dr. Sandra L. Shullman, says,
"We are living in a racism pandemic,
"which is taking a heavy psychological toll
"on our African American citizens.
The health consequences are dire."
The Wisconsin Public Health Association
declared racism to be a public health crisis,
citing more than 100 studies
that link racism to worse health outcomes for Black residents.
And yet, only 5% of psychology professionals are Black.
So what does an equitable response
that supports Black mental health look like?
And what are the barriers to treatment
that need to be addressed?
Licensed mental health professional, Myra McNair,
has a few ideas at her practice
that are positively impacting the mental health
of Black people in her community.
Thank you for joining us today, Myra.
- Thank you for having me.
- So, tell me, what's your story in terms of what's brought you
to the point that you are now in the profession that you're in?
- My husband is in ministry,
so I saw a lot of mental health issues in the church,
and there's always been this narrative in the Black Church
that if you had Jesus, you didn't need to have
a mental health professional in your life.
- Right.
- That you shouldn't have any mental health issues.
You should just pray everything away.
You shouldn't be sad if you have Jesus, right?
And so, being a minister's wife and seeing all the issues,
and seeing that it was much more
than you could just really pray about,
and that knowing that we wouldn't tell that from--
to anyone if there was a physical health issue, right?
We would never just say not to go to your doctor.
And so, that's what really pushed me right into that field.
- You've made an excellent point around how
there's a stigma that's like intersecting with religion,
specifically within the Black community,
and how that can create a barrier
to folks seeking out mental health support.
So, in terms of, like, you going into that field,
for one, can you tell us, like, your--
I don't want to minimize, like,
your profession or your certification.
So, if you can tell us what that is?
And then, how you try to circumvent
some of those barriers that you've mentioned
that might prevent your community
from seeking out support?
- I would say there are a lot of different barriers
why people don't receive mental health within our community.
So, there is the spiritual, right, or the religious factor,
I think, that keeps us--
or there's, like, that stigma that has come from the church.
There's been a stigma also
that Black people don't even commit suicide
within the church,
that people just don't believe that that is something.
And because we've carried that narrative for so long,
we're seeing these huge spikes in suicide, right?
And we're behind because
we don't even think that happens within our community.
I would say there's a lot of different barriers.
So, one is health care, right?
One is the stigma that we just carry within our community.
We have heard this narrative of we, our ancestors,
have experienced slavery, and we're very resilient.
We're very strong, right?
And if my ancestors have gone through that
without any therapy, then why would I need therapy now, right?
What I'm going through now isn't as bad as slavery.
And so, we're strong, we're resilient.
We don't need this, right?
So, there's this like really negative kind of narrative that
we hold within our community about being strong,
not needing these extra supports.
Also, it has been--
psychology has been a very white field, right.
It was created-- When we look at psychology,
we look at the fathers of psychology.
They're all white males, right.
And so, what do what does psychology or what does therapy
know about me and my community, about my traumas, right?
And we also know that there's been so many,
so much different research on Black people, right?
Whether it's been the health care field
with medical, physical health,
and then, also with psychology, right.
And, can I trust a psychologist?
Can I trust a therapist?
Will they understand?
Do I have to educate my therapist
about myself and my community
before I can even get down to what's actually
my issue or my problems that I'm coming to talk about?
Given that we're in the state that we're in,
we're in a pandemic,
and there's been a resurgence,
thankfully, of refocused attention
on the Black Lives Matter movement.
But unfortunately, it's come at a cost in terms
of more lives being lost
and just, visually, our being inundated
with videos and other images of, like, Black death.
I'm wondering, from your professional standpoint,
what does that mean
to the mental health of Black people now?
Like, it's a lot for everyone,
but for our community specifically,
what do you think that means?
And how is it even showing up, too, within your practice?
- Myra McNair: Yeah, this has been a...
This is a huge challenge right now
for Black and Brown people,
but especially, I would say, for Black people.
With COVID hitting, it hit our community first,
and it's still, it's, it's the numbers
of how many Black people are dying from COVID
and being affected is just,
it-- it's just huge, right, the impact.
And so, we had that first to deal with
with the pandemic, right?
And that right alone, just that alone,
we were seeing an increase at our clinic
for mental health, right?
And so, that was a lot.
And then, after the murder of George Floyd, right.
He said, "I can't breathe."
We've heard countless Black men say, "I can't breathe."
And I always explained with COVID and then
with all of the racial unrest,
we can't breathe as a community.
[Angela sighs]
It was almost like we were suffocating.
And I think, as clinicians,
we process this a lot at our clinic.
We were also feeling that, right?
Because we have that shared experience
but then also seeing the impact in our community, right?
And the increase of numbers
of people coming in--
It was like, we couldn't breathe.
And that's the way I explain it.
As a community, it's a shared experience
that we're having right now in the United States.
It was to the point, clinically,
that I had to even shut down our clinic for a day.
- Wow. - Just for an extra day.
So we could catch our breath a little bit as clinicians
because, like I said, we were having this shared experience
with our clients, and we needed some time to slow down
and for some self-care and processing.
- I love everything that you just said
especially to like the mindfulness that you brought
to your staff because there's so often--
I've talked to, like, Black professionals
in this city alone, who were like,
I have to figure out how to put on the face
when I joined my Zoom call
because I'm dealing with so much, but because it's not--
this experience is not shared amongst my coworkers.
- Right.
- Like, I don't have a space even to process at work.
So, I have to file it away,
do what I have to do to make it through the day.
And then, hopefully, I have another safe space
outside of the workday.
But the fact that you've embedded that
because you're like, "We get it."
- Yeah.
- We're not only supporting, like, our community,
but we are part of the community and are being impacted, as well.
So, how are we taking care of ourselves
so that we're in a position to be of support
and to provide that, like...?
because you're right-- being in a pandemic,
we can't all come together like we normally would.
And so, what does that look like now?
How is that different? - Yeah.
- So, I love that you are attentive to that
in a way that I think that perhaps other people
might not have been as thoughtful around.
What do you think are the effects of
our being inundated by the media with images of Black death,
whether it's, you know, George Floyd,
him being kneeled on his neck until he suffocated,
Black men being shot, like, whatever the case may be?
On the one hand, those images are put out there
to kind of force, to propel people to care.
But for those of us who already care, it could be a lot.
So, what are you seeing or hearing
that you think is a reflection of that impact of those images?
- Yeah, it's a huge impact.
And I would say the hugest is it's really
like a trauma response that's happening within
a lot of Black people that are seeing these videos,
and they're being shared over and over and over again.
And for a lot of people, sometimes people don't even know
that they're opening it
or they're about to watch a video like that.
I talked to one of my other colleagues in DC
who's actually a clinician,
and she was so traumatized over Tamir Rice.
And she didn't know what she was about to watch.
And literally, like, those images just kept replaying
over and over of Tamir Rice and just how young he was.
And being a mom, right?
And having a son,
it's just, it's a trauma response.
And so, I tell a lot of people
to really try to take a step back
and take social media breaks because
sometimes you don't know that you're opening these things
or you're about to see a video like that.
And I get that, you know, they're needed sometimes
for education, but I would say,
you know, right now, we've seen enough, right.
And now I think, we need change to really happen.
But it's really hard, I think, for Black people
to really just be exposed to that kind of trauma.
And it's not new, unfortunately.
This trauma is not new.
These types of traumas have been
within our communities really since slavery, right?
And we talk about lynching
and now, we're, we're-- it's just a different form of it.
It's shooting, right.
But it's not helpful to our mental health at all.
We know these things happen within our communities.
And so I really, I think the best thing is,
you know, really is if our nation could change, right,
and these things don't repeat themselves.
- Yeah, that's does feel like the frustrating thing that...
The need for this to continue
because that was Emmett Till's mother's--
Like, her whole reason for having an open casket funeral
for her son--
and we've all seen the images of what he looked like--
was to show, "This is what you've done.
This is what we need to change."
But we're still then feeling the need to show these images
to encourage that same line of thinking.
It becomes frustrating.
Like you said, it has a super negative and triggering impact.
And on the flip side, I see some folks
who are opting out of
so closely following certain headlines,
and instead trying to put out funny content or other things
being criticized for not focusing on the issues at hand.
They're like, I need a break.
Like I cannot take this in 24/7.
So what do you say to those who are like,
"Yes, let's pivot, let's present some joy," right?
In the midst of what we're seeing
as some very, very violent, very graphic,
like, images of representations of themselves, essentially.
- Yeah, I think it's a balance, right?
Because I think, you know,
I have a younger daughter, she's 18, just turned 18.
And for her, when she saw
a lot of her friends who are white from high school
start, like, just posting things
about cooking and, like, other things like that,
she was really offended.
She really felt like, you know,
our whole community is hurting, and we're grieving,
and you're carrying on like nothing even happened, right?
- Has happened.
- And so, I think that there's a balance
I think for Black people, it is great--
I, I have posted myself
about restoring the joy, restore Black joy
and finding ways to take care of ourselves.
Finding ways to have joy in the middle of a pandemic.
I would say pandemics for us...
- Yes, multiple. - ...is really important.
So, I think it's a balance.
I think that, you know,
to use our social media platform
for those different things.
But I think also to remind ourselves
that we are human and we need joy.
- Yes. - We need peace.
And it's so hard for us.
I would say so much more hard, harder
because we have, yes, COVID,
but then we have all of the other things that come
with the systemic racism in our nation as Black people.
So it's not so much us being Black,
but it's all of the racism that we have to deal with.
- Absolutely.
- That makes it so hard to find joy and to find peace.
- Like you mentioned, the structural racism
didn't just stop because of George Floyd and others' deaths
and because of COVID.
So you have all the things that were already there
on top of what's being layered on those, those existing issues.
So, taking care of self, like I would say, being,
like, an intentional act.
There are those who might feel like I need to do something.
And then there are people outside
of the Black community that are looking to us
as the solvers of an issue that honestly we didn't create.
So for those of us who feel
as though I am personally impacted
by what's happening while at the same time,
like feeling this compelled to do something,
feeling this call to action placed on me.
That has to be draining.
Like, that has to do something to us.
So what do you say to that?
- Yeah, I would say it's really hard, right?
It's a really huge impact on our mental health
because we don't get a chance to pause and heal.
And I think it kind of makes sense
because we can't really fully heal when we're talking
about a whole shared experience, right?
We're talking about a collective healing.
We can't really do that until there's some type of change.
So I think it's really a human instinct
to want to say, okay, we got to solve this problem
even if we didn't create the problem,
- Right.
- We have got to help
or create some type of change because we,
for the next generation.
- Exactly. - There can't be a healing
if this keeps happening, right?
Because then we're going to try to heal,
and then there's something else that happens.
And then we try to heal
and then, something else happens, right?
and so it really does make sense of,
like, we gotta get to the root of this issue,
and then, our collective healing can come about.
But it doesn't make it easy right?
And I think it creates a lot of toxic stress.
And I always say that toxic stress
causes a lot of inflammation in our body,
which then causes a lot of other health issues.
And I think that's why we're also seeing a lot of issues
within our community with health,
as well as mental health too.
- [sighs] So it's just managing that maybe expectation
of even though, yes, you want to solve this
for your own children, for generations to come
that the approach may need to be managed
to not create those other sorts of health problems
that you've mentioned.
- And I think, again, it goes to balance right?
And creating this balance and making sure that yeah
we are making things better for our next generation
as much as we can and as much as we have the power to do so.
But I think also we do have to push back
within the white community, right?
And say that, you know,
you really need to create change.
This just can't be on Black people.
We didn't create this system.
We didn't create racism, this can't...
And also, us letting white people in
[Angela laughs] on some of the movements, right?
Because knowing that this isn't our movement,
this is-- this has to be all of our movement, right?
This change has to be with all of us.
- Yes, and historically, that has happened, right?
- Where there were white people who took part
in the Freedom Rides, for example,
and lost their lives alongside those who were Black
that were part of that movement.
So, absolutely, this is not just our issue right?
It's all of our issue, and we didn't create it,
but we need everyone involved to help solve it.
- And, and creating change happens
on a lot of different levels.
I tell a lot of parents, sometimes the biggest change
and the most like revolutionary thing that
you can do is just playing with your kids
which I know sounds like really like crazy.
But yeah, like in a pandemic
during racial unrest,
letting our kids in the next generation have joy
is not what society is telling us right now.
And so that's why I say it's revolutionary, right?
Is to just love each other, love our families, love our kids,
that is creating huge change.
I tell people, it may not--
you may not be a protester, right?
Because maybe you're with your kids, right?
- Right. - Or you can't just drive
to the next city and protest with them
because you got to get your kids to bed on time
[laughs]
for their virtual school lesson the next day.
And that is revolutionary.
That is creating change, in your own small way.
- I love that.
Like, reframing what revolutionary acts are
because you're right.
Protesting, marching, all of those acts are appreciated.
But for those who can't do those things
for whatever reason, what can you do
that still speaks to like self-care, love, joy,
all the things you've mentioned.
- Yes. - Angela: Oof!
Okay, so I have another question for you,
- Okay.
- For people who were formerly like myself,
who are on the fence about pursuing therapy
because, as you mentioned before, even understanding
that there is an issue psychologically
is sometimes lost on us because we've never exposed to
'this is what anxiety looks like,'
'this is what depression looks like.'
And we may call it something else.
Like, I very specifically remember
experiencing a panic attack in school years ago.
And I didn't know what it was.
I thought I was having a heart attack at like,
I was maybe like 22.
And I went to the ER at the time,
the city that I lived in,
and they asked me if I use cocaine
and I was like I've never used drugs
in my life, no. [Myra laughing]
And so, they were like,
we don't understand why someone
your age would be having a heart problem.
They never asked me about school.
Like, that eventually came out.
They were like, "Oh, okay.
You're a student so this is probably why,"
but that didn't click to them to ask me
before they asked the drug question right.
And it didn't click to me that that was probably a connector.
And so, even after having that issue, it didn't register
like, "Oh, I should probably talk to someone."
Now, like 10 year-- plus years later,
I'm-- now have a therapist relationship.
But for so long, because, I think,
the influence of the church, like praying things away,
as well as just not seeing myself
as having a high enough need to go talk to someone.
Like, all those things kept me
from having a relationship
that I think would have been super helpful.
Who knows where I would be now had I
had a 10-plus year foundational relationship with a therapist?
So, in saying all that,
what do you say to people
who recognize that, "Yeah, life is tough.
"I get stressed sometimes.
"But you know, it's-- everyone's stressed,
you know, that's-- or everyone has these issues."
What would you say to them
to maybe encourage them to consider that:
Yes, you're stressed.
Yes, everyone's stressed.
But the therapist relationship could also be beneficial to you?
- Yeah, I would say, you know,
whether it's big or small, right?
Everyone can benefit
from seeing a therapist, seeing a counselor.
No one, no doctor would ever say,
wait until you're having a lot of issues
before you come in for a checkup,
or we want you to come in when you're having a heart attack.
You know, that's when we want you to come into the hospital.
No, no doctor would ever say that, right?
[laughs] - Hopefully, yes.
- And so we, I would say the same thing for,
for families, for individuals to come in
and seek help, seek support.
Even when you don't think it's that big of an issue.
And, and what we kind of, that narrative
that we tell ourselves
so what is big or not?
Also comes from your upbringing, right?
- That's true.
- And so, someone else could think that is really big.
Or you could look at someone else and compare yourself
to someone else and say, "No,
that's a big issue," right?
And so, normalcy is all what we think it is.
- Right.
- Right, based on our upbringing,
based on what society or our own community has told us.
And sometimes, when we go in and see a therapist,
we get a different perspective, right?
And someone can say, "No, that is really stressful."
And you can, you know...
Sometimes it shocks people, like, "Wow, it is?
"I didn't realize I was walking around with this stress.
"Or, I was walking around with this issue
that I just thought I was supposed to have it."
- Right.
- Right, because we were taught that it was normal,
or this is what I'm supposed to be dealing with.
Or maybe you saw a parent that was really kind of--
had a lot of anxiety, right?
And sometimes, we pick up on those things,
right, from our parents.
And we don't even know that.
We just think, "Well,
I thought that's how it was supposed to feel."
- How everyone... - Right. [laughs]
Everyone walked around stressed like that, right.
And so, I think it really gives perspective.
It just, it creates a better you,
and that's different for everyone.
[Angela sighs]
- So, there's still more work to be done.
But it sounds like there's still like hopefulness,
like within the midst of the challenges,
which I appreciate, which is always been at the core
of our community. - Yeah.
- Thank you so much, Myra. - Thank you.
- The constant stream of negative messages
associated with being Black
is exhausting.
On top of this trauma, Black communities
are also tasked with leading the charge on social justice.
This can be devastating for mental health,
and it's why race matters when we talk about it.
But there are ways to find help,
and people like Myra willing to listen.
This was just one conversation from Why Race Matters.
We'll leave you with an excerpt from one more episode.
I moved to Madison in 2014,
and while I saw people talking about race,
the longer I lived here,
the more I felt like it was an academic exercise.
This final clip explains what inspired me
to create the series.
After the death of George Floyd in 2020
and the increased media attention around racial justice,
I felt a responsibility
to use my connections in public broadcasting
to highlight some of these issues in Wisconsin.
Certain spaces in Wisconsin are often credited
as some of the most livable cities, but for whom, exactly?
A 2019 report from the Center on Wisconsin Strategy
showed that Wisconsin ranks near the bottom nationally
on a number of racial disparities,
including worst for unemployment.
Second worst for out-of-school suspension.
Third worst for voter participation.
And fourth worst for infant mortality.
During this season,
we'll talk with Black people living in Wisconsin
and the issues important to them,
like the school-to-prison pipeline
and a white-centered education.
- Roderick Bankston: When you know you're a human,
you're not finna accept slavery or oppression,
and it's similar to today.
When we know what we're truly worth,
we're not going to accept,
so just that education piece became critical,
but not a white-centered education,
- Angela: Civic engagement and the fear behind change.
- Tatiyana Benson: To expect me to feel
like I'm loved in this society, in this country,
is ridiculous.
To, to try to fix a system that literally
was started by stealing land and stealing people
is a ridiculous idea
to ever think that, like, this could be a just system,
- Angela: Black farming and land ownership.
- Robert Pierce: It's so hard to convince people
that what I was doing was the right thing
because it's like they equated it with slavery.
They, you know, the hard work you know it was like, you know,
you know they didn't realize
it was a payout for that hard work.
? ?
- Angela: The Black experience in Wisconsin
needs to be talked about.
Our stories need to be heard.
My journey here started in 2014, but it's still going.
Let's explore and recognize Why Race Matters in our state.
To learn more, go to
pbswisconsin.org/ whyracematters
to find additional links and resources
to help keep you informed.
There, you can also check out the Why Race Matters podcast,
as well as additional episodes.
[gentle marimba music]
[upbeat instrumental music]
- Funding for Why Race Matters is provided by
CUNA Mutual Group,
Park Bank,
Alliant Energy,
Madison Museum of Contemporary Art,
Focus Fund for Wisconsin Programming,
and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.