- Welcome, everyone, to Wednesday Nite @ the Lab. I'm Tom Zinnen. I work here at the UW Madison Biotechnology Center. I also work for UW-Extension Cooperative Extension. And on behalf of those folks and our other co-organizers, Wisconsin Public Television, the Wisconsin Alumni Association, and the UW-Madison Science Alliance, thanks again for coming to Wednesday Nite @ the Lab. We do this every Wednesday night, 50 times a year. Tonight it is my great pleasure to welcome Tamara Thomsen back to Wednesday Nite @ the Lab. She works at the Wisconsin Historical Society and is a maritime archeologist. She was born in Bethesda, Maryland, grew up in Indianapolis, Indiana, and then came here to study horticulture as an undergrad, horticulture and agronomy. Got her master's degree in the plant genetics, plant breeding program working on sweet corn. And then worked for geology, geophysics doing biogeochemistry research. And now, for the last 12 years or so, you've been working for the Wisconsin Historical Society. Tonight, we get to hear another great story about the Great Lakes, and ships and shipwrecks, the things that are making...  Making Wisconsin waters, I think, a national destination for this kind of work. And we now have a national maritime preserve in the works, and a lot of that is due to the work that Tamara and her colleagues have done over the last many years. Tonight, she's going to talk to us about solving the mystery of the SS Lakeland. Please join me in welcoming Tamara Thomsen back to Wednesday Nite @ the Lab.  [audience applauding]   - Hi. I'm going to start out with a confession. I don't know how to change the oil in my truck.  [laughing]  I know very little about cars. You know, I mean, it's easy enough to hire a mechanic to get through things. So I'm not really a car aficionado. I also have, another confession is that my passion really is wooden sailing ships. So when my predecessor wrote a grant for a metal, a steel steamship that was filled with automobiles and then resigned, I really felt like I have a very, very steep learning curve going into this. So I do feel like I've learned an awful lot, and I'm hoping to share. This was actually a very exciting story to sort of peel back the layers from, and I hope you'll find it as interesting and fascinating as I do. I have to say now, I feel like I'm an expert in Nash, Kissel, and Rollin automobiles after this experience.  So this is, this is actually the early version of the Lakeland. She was built as the steamship Cambria in 1887 at the Globe Ironworks in Cleveland, Ohio. She was built for the Mutual Transportation Company, and she was designed to run in the iron ore and coal trade. So she served ports on Lake Michigan, like Escanaba and Superior, Ashland, and carried the iron ore back to ports on Lake Erie. Through a number of company amalgamations, she ended up under the US steel flag. So she was a Rockefeller ship. And she served until this capacity until 1910. At that point, she was sold to the Port Huron Duluth Steamship Company and converted to passenger and package service.  So, it was pretty interesting in that they also acquired two other ships at the time. They acquired one called the Lakewood and one called the Lakemere, and they ran them from 1910 until 1916 in this service. And you can see that they added sort of an upper deck to them, of passenger cabins. And this was all wood from about where the white part is up, and then steel below. And they re-outfitted all of the ships, and really ran a very profitable passenger service until 1916. In 1916, the company declared bankruptcy, and all three ships continued to change hands up until about 1920, when she was acquired by the Tri-State Transportation Company. And at that time, it was owned by a gentleman named Merwin S. Thompson. He was out of Mentor, Ohio, and he decided to get into the automobile transportation business.  And about 1920 or so, she was outfitted to be able to carry cars. So what they did then is they put the side cargo doors in. You can see the ramp here, as they would drive the cars up right into the ship. And there was a car elevator that then could lower the cars only one deck. So the lower deck of the vessel was empty, and they would use that as sort of a ballast area. So when they had a full cargo of cars, they would allow water to come in and fill up halfway, at least into the lower cargo hold, to be able to make the ship stable. So wouldn't it be weird to look down into your cargo hold and have it half-filled with water on purpose? How would you know if you were sinking, right? But that was the way that they sailed this vessel. And so I didn't really understand the full reasoning behind that until we started getting into looking at the ship in detail on the bottom.  So when Merwin Thompson purchased into the ship as part of this Tri-State Steamship Company, he then eventually bought out his partners. It took him about four years to do that. And so in 1924, he took sole ownership of the vessel. He transferred the name of the business into Thompson Transit Company, and took out a $165,000 mortgage on the vessel. And that was early in 1924. He then took licenses to carry cars from Cleveland to Chicago, and that was primarily his route.  So now we can get into the sinking history of it. She came into Chicago on the first of December, 1924. And we know that at that port, she loaded Nash and Kissel automobiles. So Nash is a company that was founded in 1916 in Kenosha, Wisconsin, and Kissel was a Hartford and Milwaukee-based company. And so the question is, we don't really know how many cars were taken aboard. There's some question as to how many were put on at that point.  They also took aboard a new engineer. So what's interesting is that this ship had the same engineer since 1907. So prior to Merwin Thompson taking ownership of this, she lived through all of these changes in ownership, she lived with that engineer. The engineer came with the ship. And then that morning in Chicago, the engineer was abruptly taken off and replaced with a new guy. And they left Chicago and they started for Detroit. Detroit was their destination with this cargo, and they didn't make it all that far. They made it as far as Sturgeon Bay. And on the night of the second of December, they came into Sturgeon Bay to wait out a storm. They came in through the canal, they went into the turning basin, which is just beyond the canal, and they waited until the next morning. Early the next morning, they got up steam. They left probably around 6:30 or so. They departed the canal, and they went five miles out into the lake. There was another vessel that was following them, and one that was coming across the lake. And about eight o'clock in the morning, they sort of all converged in this area about five miles out of Sturgeon Bay. The Lakeland then made a circle, and then the other ships took this to be a distress signal. There was no distress signal that was sent to the Coast Guard. There's a Coast Guard station right at Sturgeon Bay, there was in 1924 as well. And they made no effort to signal them. They're only five miles away, right? They're directly out in front of this Coast Guard station. And so he makes a circle, and the other vessels think that he may be experiencing some sort of distress, may be trying to turn back. He then again faces the vessel out into the lake. And at 8:30 a.m., the Cygnus, which is the boat in the background, another steamer which had been coming across the lake, signaled to the captain and radioed him, and asked him if he was experiencing trouble and if he would want a tow. Now, one thing you need to understand about the bottom topography of the lake off of Sturgeon Bay, you can go about four-and-a-half, almost five miles out, and you're in about 60 feet of water. But once you get to the edge, it drops off to 200 feet very, very quickly. And so if he was experiencing engine difficulty or anything, any of these, either of these boats were capable of towing him half a mile or a mile back in toward shore, where he could sink in a reasonable depth and the boat could be recovered. So instead of receiving this service which was offered to him, it was also offered, by the way, by the boat that was following him, which was the Ann Arbor Number Six. And aboard the Ann Arbor Number Six was a radio operator named Elliott Jacobson, and Elliot Jacobson had a new Brownie camera. And so he saw this going down, and he went out on the deck and he started taking pictures of this vessel that seemed, appeared to be in distress. And there were other boats circling. So again, once the offer was made by the captain of the Cygnus, Captain McNeely of the Lakeland headed back out into the lake and dropped his anchor, and refused any sort of service from either of the vessels. He then started lowering his lifeboats, and he put all of the crew onto the lifeboats. And four of them, however, remained back with the captain aboard the ship. The crew then rowed over to the Ann Arbor Number Six, where they were received and taken aboard. One of the crew that was left behind with Captain McNeely then went and packed all of the luggage that belonged to all of the crew members into a lifeboat. And that's him with the luggage, right nestled up next to the ship. And he rowed that over to the Ann Arbor Number Six. So they didn't lose any of their personal belongings, right? That's good. And still, the Coast Guard is not signaled. So the Coast Guard, about 10 o'clock now, realizes there's three boats that are sort of-- You know, one is anchored and the rest of them are circling. There's something going on. So they launch their lifeboat, which is in the foreground. And about 10:55, they make it out on-site and they try to render   "Since being back from New York, "Bill has been away "so I don't know how he stands on going at this price. "I should think that it would be necessary "for him to obtain leave. "This appears to me as a case of duty, "as our experiments are going to be carried on "under service conditions." So they're going to actually field test this. "Now, if you will help us all the way around "and call the department, "Captain Rock and Mr. Hobson, "and also Lieutenant Commander J.A. Saunders in navigation, "and tell them about it. "Also, what advantages we will gain "through giving our data a service trial." So that's his chain of command. "In other words, we must get some of our data "where it is correct for men, "and this is a good way to do it. "Besides this, I don't mind telling you "that I would like "to earn some of the cold dollars on this job. "I have written to Captain Rock and Saunders "regarding the job, "also paved the way in your bureau for Mr. Yant to go "in case the company does not change its mind "and not want him to go along. "Thank you for whatever assistance "you can give us on this job. "And with the best wishes, "I remain respectively C.L. Tibbals." So Tibbals actually went on in 1926 to start the Navy Diving School. So this is actually pre-diving school, and pre-experimental diving unit, and all of that with the Navy. So this is very, very early. It's just to give you kind of a perspective on how early it is. So this is him asking. And Sayers came back, and he said, "Oh yes, of course I'm going to help you." And he had a medic assigned to go with them. And not only that, but he also got the Navy to agree that they could have a salvage barge assigned to them with a re-compression chamber, in case the experiment should go awry, as well as medical masks for oxygen. So go on vacation to Wisconsin and take the salvage barge here, the Chittendon. And so they had this outfitted at the Brooklyn Navy Yard for them. They had the diving stage, which is the little platform on the side, added to it. And they left for Wisconsin. Additionally, they had the Westinghouse Corporation build these 1,000-watt lights for them, electric lights. And they took those down. There's a really cool quote that says that, "It's as bright as an average city living room. "The men could read the figures on the small gauges." So I thought that was kind of interesting. So all of these things are coming together for their wonderful vacation in Wisconsin. So this is the crew that came out to the Lakeland. You can see they're under the Overseas Salvers flag. And this is them on the Chittendon, presumably anchored over the Lakeland. Amongst the divers were the undersea salver divers, Big Harry Reinhardson. He went by Big Harry, I think that's fun. And then H.A. Grove, S.J. Drellishak, all of those are ex-Navy divers. And then two current Naval personnel, which is G.F. Smith and Joseph Eiven. And I sure wish that this picture were clearer, and that I could figure out who's who amongst this. But this is the only known picture of the group of divers during their time here in Wisconsin. So what they were asked to do by the underwriters was go and look at some ball valves. So there's a series of these valves that are throughout the ship, and they operate the sea cocks. So these are the ways that they could allow water in to be able to ballast the tank or be able to, while it was underway, open it up to be able to drain water out through a Venturi effect. And you're pretty familiar with these same ball valves because you probably have one on the outside of your house. So it looks very, very similar. But these things were everywhere in the ship. So this is actually a blueprint, again from National Archives, that shows all of the different valves that they needed to check, which are all around the engine, and showing that they had checked them, and how far out the stem had been rotated so that you could tell how open or closed the valves were. And it wasn't an easy thing. It wasn't just that you open the valves or you opened all 16 valves or whatever it wa  The many cars, some of them remain latched down, some of them have come loose from their hold inside the deck here. 

 He's going to head over towards this hatchway. There's a little cargo hatch here, and you see one of the cars is sort of askew with its back tire resting into the hatch.  You see the rusticles, kind of like Titanic, that are hanging from all of the beams. And this is the lower cargo hold. And you can see there's really a whole lot of nothing in there. So this would've been where the ballast water was brought up, at least halfway up here. I see one of the wheelbarrows  and some of the cars have fallen down through the hatch.  This is the dashboard of one of the Nash vehicles.  And a fire extinguisher, which still remains attached to one of the beams. A lot of lighting with light bulbs.  And this is John. He's going to head up into-- This is up in the bow. He's heading into the windless room, but he's going to first look right and left where there's a couple little rooms. This is the head, and this is a storage closet. And you can see in here this is one of the brass lantern, accessory lantern. And he's in the windless room now. So this would've been used to raise and lower the anchors, the steam windless. This is his partner, John Scoles, coming in through the door with a bilge pump.  The bow is a pretty interesting area, in that there's some scouring that has occurred just below the bow. And you can swim up about 100 feet under the keel of the ship, which is kind of a spooky thing. You don't get to do that very often. Here they come up over the bow, and you can see the bits on the port and starboard side, but you can also see the capstan.  And he's come back to the break now, and he's looking at the double bottom bilge. So this would've tried to protect it from water entry. Some of the cars that are sitting back by the boiler room. And you can see how the deck has really collapsed, and they've just sunk in from where they were positioned. And you see all the wire, the wire from fishing.  It said some of the upper structure had blown off. This is all that remains, really, of the wooden structure that would've made the cabins. That whole deck has blown away in the sinking. It was pretty fragile. But you can see the sash windows are still in place, which is pretty interesting. And John Scole's swimming out of the smokestack. You can enter from the boiler room below and come out the smokestack. It's kind of a cool shot. The rudder and the propeller were salvaged, but you can tell how it hit stern first. It looks very crushed. And one of the deck winches. And if you look very carefully, you can see an auxiliary propeller blade. This is the very first triple expansion engine on the Great Lakes, so it's a very cool thing to look at. It has steps forged in so that someone could climb up, and oil, put oil in the little greasers. And this is, I'm going to make the screeching noise for John because this is, they're trying to sneak down this hallway and they get caught up here and scratch their lens, just to get the shot where it says drinking water only.  [chuckling]   So this is the officers mess, and there's just beautiful stained glass work. And you can see the portholes are still in place, and they're open, which is something that's very interesting. A lot of pokey things, like John says, in this area. So it's hard to maneuver in there, especially with big cameras. And so our dives were about 45 minutes on the video shoots, and then we would spend about an hour-and-a-half coming up. This is looking down into where some of the valves are for the, for the sea cocks. And I had John come in here and try to stick his camera into this room. And you can see, I'm going to pause this right here for a second. You can see that this is below the windless, and it would've had the chain locker in this area. But they have the chain sort of precariously wound around this stanchion here. And so when you take out the full extent of the anchor, that could really be precarious for the ship. So there are the sea cocks, right there and there. That would have gotten turned on or off, that are in the bow area. So where John was looking is actually right here. So this is in the bow, and you can see that he would've dropped down one deck, gone up into the windless room, gone through a hole in the floor to be able to check those valves. And it would've been this little hole that the divers would've climbed down, which is probably about three-by-three. And I have no idea how they did that because, well, we certainly couldn't have done it with our large rebreathers and bottles on. But they obviously had to, in full diving dress dragging a hose, because they were surface supported to go down into there. So that is where I was going to show that video. The other place that we wanted to look was back by the engine room. And the first time that we got into this area actually was the first time ever. So this is, John Scoles actually shot this video. He's dropping down underneath a catwalk next to the engine. And so he is going to now, you can see one of the gauges, and he's going to spin the camera around. And you can see there's still yellow paint, which has been painted on the engine itself. And there's the pressure in one of the cylinders there. And then he'll come around, and you'll see the revolution counter for the engine right above him. And you can actually read the numbers on this, which is amazing. And he'll eventually turn the camera the other direction, and you'll be able to see the pipes with the other set of sea cocks that needed to be, the valves that needed to be checked. So again, the divers would have come-- There's the valve right above there, one of them anyway. And so the divers would've had to have come down through that portal that removed grating from the catwalk, to be able to go down into this very area to check those valves. And it's tiny. So John Scoles is kind of a smaller guy, too, and we took all of his gear off of him and tried to modify it a little bit so that he could get in there. And he could not make it  So that's what we saw when we went into the room underneath this triple expansion engine.  So other things that we discovered when we were spending a lot of time looking through the shipwreck, that made us wonder, giving us evidence, more evidence as to whether they did intentionally sink this ship is the bilge pump. Here, this is a still from the video. But if you look at the bilge pump, this is a double acting bilge pump. So the handles, which are set in place, they're still in the carrier, would've been pulled out. And those would've been the arms that would rock her up and down. So if your ship was sinking, you would have a guy, if not two guys, on this bilge pump, working the manual bilge pump to try to keep the water out. And they still have the arms for it in the holder, so they obviously weren't concerned with that. I've got kind of an interesting little side story for this. When I was writing the National Register nomination for this, we have to do a full site description. You have to explain what equipment is in every single room. And so I wrote up, you know, you come in through the door, and to the right side there's a bilge pump, and the handles are still there. On the seam, there is a mousetrap. And then I go around and I explain all the other things in the room. Well, they send it back and they have all of these corrections that you need to make. They always come back with a few corrections, and they're like, "Stop using maritime jargon. "We don't know what a mousetrap is."  [laughing]  So I said, "A mousetrap, comma, for catching rodents." And so they thought that was the funniest thing because they thought that it was something, you know, nautical.  [laughing]  The other thing that I pointed out a little bit in the video is that all the windows are open, like all the portals are open. So again, if you're in a sinking ship, one thing that you want to do is go around, have somebody go around and close all the portals and dog them down. And that was, of course, not done either. So that's another red flag. So the thing that I was questioning is in all the testimony, so in all of the cases... 

 no one could say how many cars were aboard. So some people were saying there were 40 cars aboard, some people would like, give these sort of indiscriminate numbers, like some cars were taken off, some were put on. Maybe we had 200. Our capacity was 240. You know, this type of thing they were telling us. No one could say how many cars were aboard. And so we went through and we watched this video, which was very, very thorough, and we came up with 21. There were 21 cars aboard. So where did all the other cars go if there were cars that had been on it, you know? I imagine some could've been lost in the sinking. I doubt it, because they were at anchor. They would certainly be somewhere very close to the ship. Did they stop on their way to Sturgeon Bay and let some off? There was no evidence of that. But there were 21 aboard. And we were told that they were Nash and Kissel automobiles. And again, I know absolutely nothing about cars, especially classic cars. And so when you descend down on this ship, the first thing you see is the jalopy sitting off in the sand. And I really imagine that I would have a difficult time trying to identify these cars. But my boss, state archeologist, told me there's always a guy. There's some guy that knows everything there is to know about a certain nuance of history, or a certain car type or something. So the National Automobile Club actually was started here in Wisconsin. In fact, the guy that holds card number one's name is Jim Dworshak, and he lives in Soldiers Grove. So I thought, well, I'll call him. And so I looked up his phone number and I gave him a call, and I thought this guy's going to think I'm nuts. Well, he didn't answer so I left a message on his voicemail, and I'm like, he'll never call me back. And a few hours later, he called me, and he had actually been over in Milwaukee in a junkyard, grabbing some pieces off some car that was there. And he was on his way back to Soldiers Grove, and he would be through Madison. He says, "Oh, I can meet with you for about an hour." I'm like, all right, so I reserved a room in the library, and I had all this video, and so I pulled out the clips that went with the cars. And he went through and he was like, "Oh, yeah, this one, "this is a two-door Nash sedan." I'm like, this thing, well, it's been in a shipwreck, but it's a car wreck in a shipwreck, you know? So I don't know how he knew this, but he was able to tell me that, you know... "Oh, it's got special six wheels," because he knew by the hub it has an overhead valve engine.  By looking at this, and covered with zebra mussels. And then we went through and we did this one. And this is the one that, when you go through sort of that peaked-up area in the deck, you come down and see this one. And you're like, oh yeah, you look at the lug nuts and you count those. And he knew what all the valves were, and he was able to identify this make and model. And these are two, there's two there that have fallen off at the break. And he said, "Oh, this is very typical "of the construction of Nash doors." And this one had, it was a wooden frame, and so it was very hard top. But Nash was an everyman's car. It was designed so that the average Joe could afford it. And in fact, they would come and they wouldn't have bumpers on them, and they wouldn't have a spare rubber. They came with a piece of paper that told you how to get a hold of your Goodrich dealer to buy rubber if you wanted to have it on the spare carrier. And so, you know, he knew. He was the guy, he knew everything about them. And he was able to tell me which ones were Nashes, but he was also able to tell me which ones were not. So there were--  Let's go to the next one. There were a number of other cars. So we determined there were about nine, maybe 10 Nashes aboard, of the 21 cars aboard. Then he said, "This one's definitely not a Nash." He said, "It's probably a Kissel "because, well, they told me, "the newspaper said they had loaded Nash and Kissel. "So here you go, here's the Kissels." So he said, "I know a woman "at the Wisconsin Automobile Museum, "which is in Hartford. "Her name is Dawn Bondhus, "and I'm going to set you up her. "They've got a couple of my cars there, "so I know her real well." And so he did, and she scheduled an appointment with me. She had the Kissel guy there. She actually had Doug Kissel, who's the great-grandson of the founder of Kissel Car Company. And I sat down with them and I showed, I spent several hours with them, also showing them images of cars that Jim Dworshak had told me that were not Nashes. And so we figured out that there were, I think, six Kissel cars that were aboard. And what was interesting is when we went through the Kissels, and you can see it's got a bumper. But what's very interesting is if you follow the running board back, the fender and then the running board, you can see it's a got a toolbox on this one. And if you actually slide back under that crushed deck, you'll find out that it actually had a carrier on it for your golf clubs. So if you were anybody, if you were a Hollywood star or a person that wanted to be wealthy or the rich and famous, you had a Kissel car in this day. And each one of them was different. They had every model of Kissel that was made and outfitted with all of the accessories. This ship was headed for Detroit, and they believe that this was the full stock of Kissel that was being sent for the Detroit Auto Show, which would've run in January. So here's the, you can see the spoked wheels. Kissel, okay? So you don't have the disk wheel that would've been the everyman's... Only special people got the spoked wheels. So you can say Kissel, Nash, and that was a very easy way of doing it. But as you can tell by my drawing here, there's several that are not Nash, not Kissel, and they said, "We don't know what those are." And so these are my notes from what I was taking, and we numbered all of the cars based on where they fell within the video footage. And I came down to this set of cars that I had no idea what they belonged to.  And I had nowhere to go. So I started thinking around, well, they picked up cars in Chicago. So it might be like a northern Illinois, Wisconsin car company which was producing cars in 1924. What do you have? And the only thing left for me, really, that made sense would be Case, Case known for farm machinery. They made cars up until 1926. So of course I found the Case guys, they met with me at a coffee shop down in, down in New Glarus. And they brought all of their stuff. And they told me, absolutely not, these are not Case cars. And so he pulled out a little handbook there, which showed the underbody and the structure and where all of the suspension and the parts went. And he said, "Every car underbody is a fingerprint. "You can tell the car by where they put the stuff, "where they have the battery box, "where the suspension goes in. "So you just need to find, you know, Cinderella, "the one that fits the slipper." And so they sent me on my way, I had a nice afternoon with them. So I thought, well, I'm going to take a shot in the dark, right? So this originated in Cleveland. And I ran into a newspaper article from Sturgeon Bay that said that there were some divers in the '70s that had removed a car from the Lakeland. It was a botched recovery. So when they brought it up, they forgot that the edge of the escarpment came up from 200 feet to 60 feet. And they lost some air in the lifting bags, and they ended up dragging it up over the lift of the escarpment. And by the time they got it back to Sturgeon Bay, it had lost all of the sheet metal. And so when they pulled it up with the wrecker, it was basically just a frame. And the newspaper said that it was a Rollin. Now, I thought, what is a Rollin? Who here has heard of Rollin car? So I looked it up, and it came up that Rollin automobiles existed in Cleveland, Ohio. They were made from 1923, late 1923 until early 1925. So they were made for a little over a year-and-a-half by a guy named Rollin White. So I thought I'd take a shot in the dark and I sent an email. This was the Wednesday before Thanksgiving at like, five o'clock, and I wrote an email to the guy. There's a curator of Ohio-built cars, and he's at the Western Reserve Historical Society within the Cleveland History Center. And I sent him this picture and a cut of video that John made for me, and I hit go and I went away for Thanksgiving. And I came back on Friday morning to work, and I had a 17-page thesis on why he believes these are Rollin cars. And so he's got the play-by-play lines drawn on here, and what all the parts are identified. And he was very excited. And he went in on Thursday of Thanksgiving and turned on the lights in the museum and climbed under the car and took pictures, because they have one Rollin car that's in their museum. By the way, there are three Rollin cars that are known to exist, okay? Their museum has two of them. One is like their parts car. They don't have all the parts to it, but they have the car. They have the one that's in their museum, which is whole, and then there's a collector that's in Oregon that has the other one, right? So it is the Rollin car. I asked the divers that had done the recovery how they knew it was a Rollin. None of them could remember why they thought it was a Rollin. So I was amazed that the newspaper had gotten it right and it actually was. And here is the schematic of what the underbody is supposed to look like, and that for sure is what we have. So we solved the mystery of how many cars were there. So there were 21 that were on the ship, they recovered one. So there were 22 aboard. Not 40, not 200, unless you misplace a decimal, right? But yeah, there were not very many. So it's still a mystery as to why they decided to sink it. Everyone I've sent the court cases, because those are actually cataloged with the National Archives as well. And I made copies of those and I sent them to mariners, guys that are out sailing on the Great Lakes. And they're reading through these lawsuits, and I'll get messages at like two in the morning. "Oh my gosh, they sunk th