Wisconsin Public Television University Place  John Nicol The Open Source Aircraft Project  July 27, 2012 UP745 cc >> Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the AeroInnovate Technology Showcase Stage here at the AeroInnovate Pavilion here at AirVenture at EAA in Oshkosh. I am the co-founder and director of AeroInnovate here at UW- Oshkosh, and I'd like to welcome you all for today's technology showcase presentations. I just want to share a little bit about AeroInnovate before we get started. AeroInnovate helps entrepreneurs across the globe connect to investors and partners who are starting new companies and bringing related new technologies to the marketplace. We do this with four key pillars. And the first one is the education piece. Educating entrepreneurs to build a pipeline of up and coming aero innovators. We also work to align investors and aero related industry leaders with quality opportunities. We connect aero innovators with people and resources that they need to grow and succeed. And finally, exposing new aero related technologies to the world through presentations such as this on Technology Showcase Stage. 

So, with that, I will hand it over to John Nicol, our first Technology Showcase presenter of the day who is the founder and CEO of MakerPlane. So, with that, please welcome John Nicol. [APPLAUSE] >> Thanks so much, Meredith. So, who here has heard about open source? Okay, well, hopefully almost everyone in the audience. Now, what I'm going to present today is the concept of open source in aviation, so using both hardware and software technologies to help people build aircraft faster, quicker, and safer. Now, digital manufacturing, the whole maker movement, so-called maker movement, The Economist has quite rightly called it the third industrial revolution. So, just a little bit about myself there. So, the maker movement, these are people and this is probably going to be a very familiar paragraph to anyone that has started or is considering starting building an aircraft. The maker movement, in today's terminology, are people that take things apart, they put things together, they play around with technology, and they come up with very cool and creative ideas to build new capabilities. And, in my mind, some that's in aviation that's building their own aircraft is a maker, and they have been for over a hundred years. 

So this should be a very familiar statement to people in the audience. And this person here, Limor Fried, is actually one of the pioneers in the open source hardware movement, and she has a website called Adafruit, and she provides open source electronic kits and plans for people to build really cool little devices. And she also sells kits to help support the open source side of her business. So, one of the key enablers for the maker movement, and, in our case, open source aviation, is that personal digital manufacturing technologies are becoming freely available, they're becoming really cheap, and there's lots of content out there online. They're supported in the community by many, many tinkerers and makers who provide their ideas and their content online for free for anyone to use and to collaborate on and then to improve and put back out into the community, into the space. So what you see here on the image are different technologies, but you can see 3D printers, you can see CNC machines or computer controlled routers and cutting equipment, and also in the middle there is an Arduino board which is an open source microcontroller that you can use to build lots and lots of interesting and cool things. Things like robotics, things like the DIY drones, if you've heard of that. It's an open source UAV, and they use Arduino a lot. So there's a lot of technology out there that can, obviously, be applied into the open source aviation space. So what is the problem that we're trying to solve here? So, a lot of you probably know of projects that have been abandoned, that are lying dead on the side of a taxiway somewhere. 

So after doing my research, and probably you've also seen on Barnstormers or eBay or any other online sales website you've got projects for sale, and of myself, I've actually had a project quite recently for sale, and the reason I did that was because the company went under that I bought the project from. And there's people in the audience here that know of companies that have gone under or plan's designers that have passed away, and the plans are no longer supported. So there is a significant issue. This number really translates into two out of three projects that are started are never completed. Two out of three. That is a massive problem. Really, that's a problem. If two-thirds of projects fail out there, we must be doing something not quite right. And the other problems here, on EAA website they say it takes between one and three thousand hours to actually build an aircraft, on average. I think that might be a little bit optimistic, but that's what the EAA has said. 

Also, it's very complicated to build an aircraft. We start off all enthusiastic. We get our kit and we just get stuck into it straight away. But if you're building ribs, and I've got an example of a rib on my stand which is actually from the project that I had up for sale. It's a -- 3M. It's a Reno racer if you know that particular aircraft. So there's about 50 ribs in the wing. It's a sport version. It's got extended wings. So, if you're doing ribs and it takes you four or five hours to do a rib, in this case there's a three-hour rib here on mine because it was taken from a photo at a workshop here at EAA, you could spend 12 to 18 months building ribs, and by the end of that year you've got a stack of ribs. 

Probably the first one is very cool when you get out of the jig. The second one is great. The third one is okay. By the 20th one, you probably want to do something else. So there's a motivation factor as well. You're making progress rather slowly. But on a CNC machine, a computer controlled cutter, you can do a rib in about two or three minutes. So all of the sudden within an hour, an hour and a half, you have your stack of ribs instead of waiting 12 to 18 months. So you've got an immediate gratification as well that comes with building your parts very quickly. And I think that that maintains the motivation when you're building a plan. 

So, our solution, that's a long-winded explanation to get here, but our solution is to actually provide and create plans, designs of aircraft, from scratch that are optimized to build on CNC equipment or personal digital manufacturing equipment. So in that way you're not necessarily constructing a rib out of 50 different parts by hand. What you're doing is that you're actually cutting out that part on a 2D profile on a CNC machine. What we're also doing is not just the plans and the files itself, but we're creating a process and I'm sort of calling it the MakerPlane process at the moment. Probably vanity coming in here. The thing is, is that what we're doing is that we're not only looking at just throwing a kit or throwing a plan at someone. What we're doing is looking at the whole methodology of assembly and creation of your dream aircraft. So, if you can imagine slots and tabs construction so that you can put an aircraft part into a slot and it only goes in one way and you can't screw it up and it's really easy to do, then that's one way that we can look at improving this whole concept of assembling your own aircraft really easy and quickly. Because I know that there's craftsman in the audience and I know that there are people that will want to do the 50-part rib and do it over many years, and that's the enjoyment that they get. But I think there's a wider issue if two out of three aircraft projects fail, then I think that the majority of people are actually looking for a way to get their aircraft in the air quicker. 

So that's what we're looking at. Now, with this as well, the methodology includes things like 3D images and animations and modern technologies that we can use and apply to our assembly instructions. So what that basically means is minimizing text, minimizing interpretation of plans and assembly manuals, and making it very picture oriented. Pictorial, using images. That's the way that we think. And lots of little arrows saying that slot there goes into that tab. So there's lot of things like that that we can do. We can use modern what we call instructional techniques, learning techniques. So I have a little bit of background in that when I was doing some work with the Canadian forces.  So the problem that you might know is if you've got people going overseas and they're teaching law enforcement or militia how to do things, a lot of those people in different areas are illiterate. 

So there's no sort of benefit in giving them manuals which are written in English or French or Spanish. They just won't get it. So we're using a lot of pictures. We're using a lot of images. That's what we want to do. So you can see here on the bottom picture there is an assembly for a landing gear. So that actually animates, it pulls apart, it comes back together, and you can see where each part goes. You can rotate it, you can look at it from different angles, and you can see how things actually fit together. Now, what we're going to be doing with MakerPlane, and we've actually already started this, is putting together a group of products and services to help support this open source idea. Now, again, all of the plans that we have online are free. 

People can download the avionics plans. And when we have our aircraft designed and built, people will be able to download the plans for those aircraft for free. To support the community, what we'll be able to offer is kits and parts and things that people can purchase if they don't want to build particular parts or the whole kit. That's how we're sustaining everything. So we'll have our aircraft kit, or kits. In fact, there's going to be more, and I'll get on to that in a second. They manufacture equipment as well. So the CNC machine I've got on my booth is very much an early prototype. It's very loose. It's not rigid. 

It's okay but not for your kits. So, we're working with a US-based manufacturer here to provide a full CNC kit capability. It will be open source as well. You'll be able to get the plans if you want to build it yourself, but we also offer the parts. Now, what that means is it's going to be a four by eight built platform. So you can put a whole sheet of plywood down, a whole sheet of foam, and you can cut up all your parts at once. We're also doing avionics as well. So open source avionics. It may be an interesting concept. But what we're doing is there's a lot of people out there that are building their aircraft and also designing and building their own avionics. 

And there's quite a few projects that are out there online that we've gathered up and we've put into a repository through MakerPlane. That includes things like, these are overseas plans, things like radios, traffic collision avoidance system, radar altimeter, antennas for composite aircraft, things like that. And in the next month we'll also be putting up others which include audio mixers to put your cellphone and iPod into your headset for radio and annunciators. And the most exciting thing being at the show this week is that people have come up with projects that I didn't even know existed. So, in the next month, this is quite exciting, we will have an almost complete glass cockpit. So, an EFIS, electronic flight information system, which will have the artificial horizon and the engine monitoring and things like that. So you should be able to put together your own glass cockpit, each panel, for probably under $500. So I'm very excited about that I'm sure there's people in the audience that are quite excited about that. The thing is that code will be up online in the repository for people to download and use but also to hopefully contribute to, to add new features and functions because as a community we've got a lot of interesting ideas and a lot of talent out there. Software developers that might be doing software development in their normal day job but their passion is aviation. 

So those are the people that are really attracted to this idea as well and hopefully will contribute to our project. So you can see some of the things that we're up to there. And also including things like Arduino. For those of you that know Arduino, there's a lot of stuff happening there in the DIY UAV community that is very applicable into full-size aircraft as well. So our vision, after all of that, our vision is to enable you to build and fly your dream aircraft easily, cheaply, and safely. That's our whole goal. Because like you, I've got a couple of projects on the go and I look at my 50-part rib and I'm thinking there's got to be an easier way to do this. So that's the motivation here. We want you to be able to build your dream aircraft easily, cheaply, and safely. And with the worldwide community behind open source aviation, we've got a ton of talent out there that can help us do this. 

Just a little bit about myself, I just finished a two-year contract with Lockheed Martin about six weeks ago. I was principal engineer working through Lockheed Martin global training and logistics in Orlando. So I know that there's a few people that I worked with that are very interested in this project, so I'm hoping to bring those guys on board. We have people contributing on our online forums, including, very early stages, but including a Northrop Grumman avionics engineer. I've had people from larger companies here, like Rockwell Collins, say hey, this is cool, I want to be involved. So what you're seeing here is a group of very interested passionate aviators from different backgrounds coming in and contributing to our project. So I hope as well that that's of interest to people in the audience. So, our first project out of the gate, and this may actually change, I'll give you a bit of a hint. I had someone come up to us with an almost complete project which has the same principals that we're looking at in our design. So there may be some interesting news coming out of us in the next few weeks. 

So hopefully I'll keep you on tenderhooks so you can come on to our website and find out the latest news. But anyway, when we started this project in October of last year, it started when I posted up on the EAA forums, and I said wouldn't it be cool if we could use CNC equipment and 3D printers to help make our airplane? So I got some really good, positive feedback from that. A lot of private messages came through, and people just started saying yeah, this is cool, let's do it, okay. The advice that I got, I don't know if you know Ron Wanttaja, he's an author that did an excellent book, actually, that I use all the time. It's about a Kit Plane Construction, I believe it's called. He's a very well-known community person, particularly in the Fly Baby community. He sort of runs that group. Anyway, I got in touch with him, and he said, okay, piece of advice here: get a small core group of very interested people, and tell everyone else to go away. And what he said, and this is absolutely true, he said if you get two aviators in a room, you're going to have four different opinions about what to build. So, I took his advice to heart, and being someone who's been in the high tech industry and a project manager doing big projects and things, I said, yeah, you're right. 

So, I got a group of four people, in fact it was five and then we went down to four, and we started collaborating, we started getting together on video conferencing and email and chat. In our forums, actually, there's a hidden members only group that you can't even see when you get to the forums, and that is about 10 times the size of the public area that you see. So if you got to our forums, you say there's not much traffic here. Well, actually, the private area is just huge. So we had all of these discussions and I did take Ron's advice and I basically did a benevolent dictatorship. And I said, okay, we are building, after market research, we are building a high wing LSA. It's going to be tricycle gear, and that's what we're building. End of argument. Of course there were some bottom lips quivering about that. The thing was is that we had to start somewhere. 

If we didn't start somewhere, we would never get off the ground, literally. So, Jeffrey Meyer, who is our very talented aeronautical engineer, he's actually a retired UAV engineer living in Israel. So it's truly an international collaborative environment right from the start. So Jeffrey is a wonderful designer, and using the specks that we came up with, that is basically the design that he came up with. The very cool thing with this design as well is that even though we're building 2D on a CNC, you'll see there's lovely curves on the machine. So it really does look nice and modern. So that's our first one. We are still looking for collaborators to help us finish the designs. So if anyone wants to volunteer, please go onto our forums and volunteer so that we can complete this design. We're starting from the pilot out. 

So, you will see that we've just started this process, but I said to the team that, look, don't start with the seat, don't start with the cockpit panel or anything like that, start with the pilot standing outside the aircraft, and you tell me how he's getting into the aircraft, and then how he sits in the aircraft and looks around. So, that's the design philosophy I've told the team is, look, they start from the pilot, figure out how he gets in, and then we'll figure out the rest. So we're building from the pilot out. Currently, our design is for a 6-foot-8 pilot. So there's lots of room. It's also 52 inches wide at the moment. So it's actually the widest cabin in its class. So, it's LSA so there will be speed restrictions and weight restrictions, but those are design criteria right now. So, with all of that, that is the design. We're definitely still looking for volunteers to help us out. 

What I've done is I've created what we call a system of systems approach to this. So I've broken down the aircraft into different systems. So, for example, controls, engine, landing gear. So I've compartmentalized each one so that there can be an owner for each one as well, and then interface back into the main design using Jeffrey as our gateway for that. He is the owner. He is the aeronautical engineer. He is the gatekeeper. So that's our MakerPlane version one, 1.0 LSA. You'll also see some very nice renderings on our website from a recent graduate, industrial design graduate, Jordan. He's put together some quite interesting initial concepts of how the interior of the cockpit looks as well. 

My brief to him was basically I want a really modern looking system and break the mold. Don't necessarily just have a flat, 2D panel. Think about how we can make this look really good when people hop in. So we've got different concepts you'll see. I don't know if I've got, oh, yes I do. Here we go. So, this is some of the ideas here, and also looking at things like pedestals instead of a flat panel. So we really encourage people, just give Jordan some feedback and jump in with your own sketches on the back of a napkin, and we'll take it from there because this is our aircraft. We don't have to be boxed in to current thinking or designs. So, there's a lot of talented people out there that we can make this a really interesting looking aircraft. 

So, our milestones, this is what we're looking at. I am looking at a kickstarter campaign sometime in September so that I can try and get this really off the ground and get some software to the guys that are doing the design, get some components in so we can start building our prototype system. In October we're going to have our avionics kits online. It may be September yet. We may be able to accelerate that, including the CNC kits. Next year, I want to have the one to one scale non-flying prototype here at Oshkosh. Now, I want it non-flying because it's cheaper components. If I have to rebuild something three or four times, I'm not using aircraft grade stuff. I'll just go to Home Depot and use whatever I can find there that's not bent like a hockey stick. So that's why it's going to be non-flying. 

We'll get the design right and we'll get the assembly and processes right. We'll take our time doing the processes. As you saw before, that's one of the most important things is making sure we understand how a builder is going to build this. The year after that, we'll actually fly in our experimental LSA. And then the year after that, maybe we'll look at an SLSA for those people that are really lazy. So, we'll figure all of that out later, but, again, it's something that certainly I think that there would be very interesting to have a certified community-built aircraft out there. And I know if you've invested some of your talent into this aircraft, I think it would be interesting to say, oh, there's my aircraft. So, the other thing, you'll see the dotted line there in the middle, and the dictatorial, benevolent dictatorship that I said will disappear. And what we're going to be doing is opening this up for people to design our next aircraft but also decide on what that aircraft is going to be. So what I want to do is run a competition next year, maybe some prizes, I don't know what they might be yet, maybe a CNC kit or something like that that we'll provide up as a prize, and we'll get designs from all over the world and then the community will decide what the next one's going to be. 

So MakerPlane version 2.0 will be a completely community-derived aircraft. And then, of course, we will get an aeronautical engineer to make it safe and to actually get it into the air. So one thing I just want to say, this is all about safety, and like any other open source project, you always have gatekeepers that make sure the code is secure and safe, and the same thing with our aircraft. We'll make sure that it's as safe as we possibly can. We'll also looking at a ballistic recovery chute as well, by the way. So that's something there. Please, our website: MakerPlane.org. There are some cards on my booth there, which has got the URL for the site. This is where our community gathers. And we also have the hanger workshop. 

Now, the hanger workshop, I couldn't think of a cool idea, so it's a workshop and there's a hanger, so we'll call it that. But this is our open source repository. This is our database of all of the plans and files that you will find for all of the projects. This has our current, I think there's 15 open source avionics designs up there now. And there will probably be another 13 to 15 up in the next few weeks. And plus the EFIS which is coming online too. Anyone can go in there and have a look. Anyone can come in there and download. You don't have to register. If you are running a project or want to own a project, then you can register and actually start your own project. 

So, this is your toolkit, your framework that you can go in and start your own open source aviation project. So if you've got a cool idea and you want to gather a team of like-minded people and create your next best thing for open source aviation, then this is your platform to do it in. I don't have anything to do with that. I'm just the shepherd. This should be and will be a community-driven effort where all I'm doing is providing the framework for everyone to succeed. And that's also where our open source aircraft plans will be as well, by the way. Now, I've already started a project for the LSA, and I you go in there you can actually see the initial very high level system requirements document I put together, as well as that breakdown of systems that I told you about as well. So those are online and available. Also, this is part of the core team project management system that I'm using. For those of you who are in the software development industry, I'm using the process called agile and scrum, which is a software development process, but the neat thing about it is that it's called iterative or spiral development. 

So you do six-week what they call sprints, and at the end of that six weeks you should have a product, and then you do another six weeks. So you've got release schedules every six weeks. Now, of course you're not going to build an aircraft in six weeks. That's not what we're doing with the actual aircraft. But every six weeks we have certain goals that we meet, and then we have something that we can either use and continue to the next sprint, or it's finished and we move on to the next part. So, this particular, you don't have to read it, it's just that's what we're using. Now, I'm also collaborating with other open source projects, open source hardware projects, just so you know. And one of them is called WikiSpeed, and I'll mention those guys because they're cool. The founder, Joe Justice, actually is using the same agile methodology. He's a software geek as well, living in Seattle, and he has a 100-mile-per-gallon open source car which is extremely cool. 

So, the idea here is that maybe you use the WikiSpeed car, your open source car to drive up to your open source aircraft and fly away. Talking about open source, actually one of the things I also want to do, and this is part of, hopefully, the Kickstarter to allow me to do this, is to start creating a series of open source hanger plans as well. There's an organization in Europe called WikiHouse, and they have an open source house which you can put together on a four by eight CNC machine, cut out all of your parts, and then put together a house. So, I'll want to use that same framework and design a hanger as well. So you'll be able to use your CNC machine that you're building your aircraft to also build your hanger, also build, perhaps, your trailer. So you can take the wings off and put it on a trailer and take it to the airport. And maybe, I've said this at the booth, maybe an beach chair so you can sit back and look at all of your handiwork as it comes out. So, all of this is going to be up there. When we say open source aviation, I really mean that in the broadest sense. Anything that you can think of from the deck chair on the flight line rating people as they land all the way up to your hanger and your aircraft and anything in between including the avionics. 

How can you help? This is my call to action here. I do have a newsletter on our website, and I would encourage people to sign up for that. It's just put your email address, and I'll send out newsletters on a regular basis which keeps you up to date with all of the free and core things that are coming up on our website and as they're released. And also any news from the open source community. Contribution to the forums is the key. In fact, that probably should have been the first one on my slide because without the community, we won't prosper. This is all about community collaboration. So, please, contribute. Just go in there and say hi, just sign up online and just talk to people. We've got a very, very small group of people in the forums now. 

So, please, the more the better. Join the design and build team. We would love it if you could contribute to what Jeffrey is doing, and then the other thing that I'm going to announce in the next few weeks which is really cool too. What we need is people to take over some parts that you don't need to be technical. There are some things that we just need some research done on and then contribute back the findings to the team. So you don't need to be an aeronautical designer or an electronic engineer or anything like that. There's still a lot of work to do in some areas. Like, for example, if Jeffrey is designing the landing gear, what wheels are we going to use. If we've got a certain weight, just do some research on the wheels, maybe the brakes, whatever, so that we've got that list together. I mentioned this before, but maybe you want to start your own open source aviation project. 

Now, we have some avionics designs on our website now from a gentleman in eastern Europe called Mathias Vidmar, and if you guys know anything about what he's been up to, he created a whole list of open source radios and transponders and radar altimeters and things like that. They're out of date and they need updating, so I'm looking for owners for those projects. Some of those diagrams, for example, are hand-written and hand-drawn and they need to be turned into electronic files. But it's a start. And I just love the stuff that this guy's been doing. So there are projects that are online now that need some love and tenderness. And just spread the word, I'm not worried about Kickstarter. Spread the word. If you could just talk to people that you know, and also, because I believe that MakerPlane does appeal to a different audience as well, that maker movement, so it's not just aviators, it's people that are interested in aviation, the kids that are using Arduino, the kids that are interested in Android tablets, the guys and girls that are in university or in high school or whatever that are using Arduino and are using open source software and hardware now... [PLANE ENGINE NOISE]  Who invited these aircraft to this thing? What is it about these things? So, spread the word. 

The thing is that I think we appeal to not just the aviators out there but a new audience of wannabe aviators that now have an opportunity to use modern technology and have a 3D printer and a CNC machine that they can build other cool stuff. And, by the way, they can also build an aircraft as well. So, if you could spread the world as well, that would be most appreciated. If you're an EAA chapter, just talk to them about it. So, that really concludes my presentation this morning. I really thank you for listening to me. Does anyone have any questions at all? >> I've got a million questions but one that comes to mind is, this is a collaborative effort... [INAUDIBLE] >> So the question was, are we using open source software to do our 3D modeling? The short answer is yes and no. [LAUGHTER] The aeronautical engineer and a couple of the team members are using SolidWorks. So that is the best payware system that you can use to do this type of design. 

However, the contributors can use any open source software that they feel comfortable with, and we ask them to provide the files in a particular format if they want Jeffrey to have a look at it and put it into SolidWorks. So that information is online. So we can take DXF, so any open source software such as, I don't know, there's lots of CAD programs out there that are open source. I do actually have a list of open source CAD and 3D modeling software in the forums as well. So feel free to go in there and have a look at any of those. And one of our contributors, Heather, on her blog, which we've linked to, also has a whole list of open source 3D software as well. So, the short answer is yes, but the designers are using SolidWorks. Any other questions? Yes. >> [INAUDIBLE] >> So, the question is, what is the power plant for this aircraft? We haven't quite decided that yet. As we go through the design process and look at the weight and balance and what the requirements will be, right now we're sort of tending towards ARV, maybe Corvair, something like that because we want this really low cost. 

If there are other similar cost engines out there or power plants, then let us know and we'll definitely look at them. One of the ideas with this being a collaborative effort is that if people are looking at electric or hybrid and they want to give that design back into the community, that's what it's all about too. So we don't necessarily need to be stuck on one particular type of propulsion or power plant. Out of the gate to make it really simple and have the slot A into tab B type construction we're going to specify a particular power plant, and we're going to put all of the instructions that people need to be successful with the aircraft. So we'll choose one particular power plant and then we will build it for that, but being collaborative, I'm really interested personally in seeing what we can do with hybrid and electric and retrofit this existing platform for that. Any other questions? Did that answer it all right? >> [INAUDIBLE] >> Okay, so the question was, can I describe the four by eight cutting machine? It's a four by eight build platform. So it's slightly bigger, actually than a four by eight. So you can put a four by eight sheet of ply on it or foam. The gantry itself, you've got different options for the gantry. So eight inches above the build platform up to two feet. 

So that allows you to put quite a bit of material underneath the cutting head. I'm working with the manufacturers, so this is a company, and we'll make all of these announcements online as well, based here in the States that have an open source design, and I've been very successful producing and providing CNC kits. And I'm working with them to design some hot wire cutters to go onto this machine as well. So you take the gantry off, and you put motors on each end with a hot wire between it. And you can cut out wing cores and other foam material with it. And on the Zed axis you would have a hot wire that goes the width of the table. So you can put a foam core down on it, and then cut the thicknesses you need for composite construction. You also have an option for a torsion box which is something I built for that particular prototype as well. So you have a honeycomb structure underneath the table to keep it level and flat and stop it from wrecking. The material is basically a sign writing plywood. 

So it's HDF, high density fiber hardwood, sandwiched or laminated onto marine plywood. So it's very steady, very stable under different temperature conditions as well. It's almost as good as metal, but it's a fraction of the price. So, there are other options as well. So, four by eight, five by twelve, and we may look at smaller machines as well. The kits, sorry, I'll talk briefly about the kits. You will have everything in the kit. All the hardware, all of the electronics, all of the motors, everything but the computer. And there are open source software links. We'll either give you the software on a CD or we'll give you a link to download the software from the open source community. 

>> [INAUDIBLE] >> Sorry, what was it? >> [INAUDIBLE] >> The price range of the kit? We're still working through the design so we don't know exactly what. The target is under $15,000. This design may be $10,000 to $12,000. I just don't know yet, but that's definitely the target is under $15K. You may be able to source parts. Hopefully it will be well under that. Hopefully well under that. One of the things is that we're not in here to make a huge profit. What we need is to make money to sustain the effort. So there will be minimal margin on the kits, but for the parts and everything else that you build yourself, definitely the $10,000 to $15,000 but hopefully a lot lower. 

But as we get through the build and design process, we'll start understanding what the cost is going to be. Any other questions? >> [INAUDIBLE] There's different versions of open source. >> Yes. >> [INAUDIBLE] >> So the question, if I could paraphrase, is, what kind of open source license would we be using under this project? So, on our website, in fact maybe I'll just go to the website, I actually have a pile of different licenses that people can use for their particular project. So, under tools and licenses there are four main open source license schemes that you could apply to your project. And one of the things that we're looking for for ours is a creative commons. So it would providing everything for free for non-commercial use. Because one thing that we don't want to do is release everything and all of the sudden we have one of the big aviation companies coming along and taking that design and then creating their own commercial one, and then basically they're cutting the whole community out of what we're trying to do. So, the IP and copyright and all of that, particularly for the MakerPlane derived stuff, will reside back with MakerPlane as an organization but creative commons that everyone can use for non-commercial use. And then commercially, of course, if we're selling the kits and we're selling the avionics then if someone else wants to do that then they would have to come back to MakerPlane and ask us if they wanted to derive a commercial product from that. 

And then, of course, that goes back into the community. So that's one of the ways that Adafruit Industries works as well and also the Arduino community. So it's very important that we get the licensing right so we have the protection for us as a collaborative group that we don't get someone coming along taking the ideas, commercializing it, patenting it, and then saying we can't use it anymore. Okay? That's not very nice, but that's the reason. So there's four different licenses. So if you're starting you own project, then you can read and use one of those licenses that I've got up here. And we're probably looking at the CERN open source hardware license which is the top one. But, again, once we actually get our design and build process up, then we're going to figure out which specific one, but they all do the same thing. They're all sort of creative commons non-commercial use licenses. Each one's got its own little nuance. 

Any other questions? Well, we'll leave it at that then. I want to thank every one in the audience for listening to me, and thank you for your contribution. Even though you're sitting here, you're contributing. So, thank you very much for listening, and I really appreciate your support. Thank you. [APPLAUSE]