Wisconsin Public Television University Place Garden Expo 2012  Shelley Ryan 20 Years of The Wisconsin Gardener  February 11, 2012 UP683  cc >> Okay, I'm going to have you clap again. [LAUGHTER] I would like to welcome you to our panel discussion celebrating 20 years of The Wisconsin Gardener. [APPLAUSE] Thank you. [APPLAUSE] You did that very well. [LAUGHTER] One of the things we're going to do today is talk about highlights of the 20 years of the show, but also highlights of the ups and downs of 20 years in the gardening industry, the gardening field, what's changed, the good and the bad and whatever. I'd like to start out, though, but introducing our distinguished panel. These are some of the regular people that have been on my show, and mostly my favorites. [LAUGHTER] This one's a favorite. Mark Dwyer from Rotary Gardens in Janesville. [APPLAUSE] He's the one that taught me you can grow bananas in Wisconsin. 

[LAUGHTER] Brian Hudelson, Extension pathologist, also lovingly known as Dr. Death. [APPLAUSE] Phil Pellitteri, Extension entomologist. Every time I hear him speak, I think I'm going back to school and I'm going get another degree in entomology because he makes insects fascinating. [LAUGHTER] [APPLAUSE] Neil Diboll, president of Prairie Nursery out of Westfield. And he's the one that influenced me. One of the first things I planted in my garden was a small prairie, and all the neighbors said, what are you doing? "Are them wildflowers?" [LAUGHTER] [APPLAUSE] And that's one of the things that has changed in 20 years, I'd like to say. And then Larry Meiller, who I've actually known for 30-plus years. He's the host of Garden Talk. I've been on with him many times, and occasionally I've been lucky enough to actually replace him. And let me tell you, he makes that job look an awful lot easier than it is. 

[LAUGHTER] [APPLAUSE]  There's two seats for two special people up here in the front row.  Right here. [LAUGHTER] >> Now I'm embarrassed. [LAUGHTER] >> You ain't seen nothing yet. [LAUGHTER] I do want to mention, you have all have a handout on your chair, and it lists the upcoming shows. The next show, March 4, is a brand new show, and it's inspired, it's called "How to Cure a Brown Thumb." It's inspired completely by my sister's gardening. [LAUGHTER] Once you've seen somebody garden with a spaghetti fork... [LAUGHTER] You know they need help. [LAUGHTER] Luckily, she's in Chicago and can't hear a darn thing we're saying. [LAUGHTER] The April show is already wrong in the schedule, but it's a good chance to promote the fact that you can check out all of our shows on our website. 

wpt.org and then click on Wisconsin. We have a brand new website, and you can even watch the videos and actually watch me age 20 years right in front of you. [LAUGHTER] Please don't. [LAUGHTER] In addition to Phil Pellitteri, who was on one of the first shows in 1992, I'd like to introduce somebody else who was on the very first show in 1992. Jim Schroeder, would you please stand up for a minute and turn around. [APPLAUSE] One of the first lessons we learned was don't try to do an entire show in one day. [LAUGHTER] By 5:00 we were sunburned, disgusted, angry and had not a clue what we were doing. [LAUGHTER] And they still let us do this for another 20 years. >> Jim told me once that he thought a five-minute spot would be five minutes. [LAUGHTER] He didn't bring a lunch along with him, he said that day, and he had to run out to McDonald's and get lunch and come back and finish it out. 

>> I don't think any of us, this was my idea but when I first went to the station manager 20 years ago and said, hi, you don't know me but you need a garden show, he said, well, what's your television background, and I said, well, I did a carpet commercial once. [LAUGHTER] I thought it was enough. So we all went into this blindly. A number of people at the station helped me create this. I had the idea; I had no idea how to make it into reality. So there's a number of other people, Laurie Gorman, in particular, and Nancy Ciezki who are not here that I need to thank because I didn't know how to make the picture part. I just knew how to do the weeding and the planting. And even Jim Schroeder helped with that. He was one of my instructors as a master gardener. One of the other inspirations that's really helped me through 20 years to keep going when it was 95 degrees out and I was trying to pretend I was happy. 

[LAUGHTER] I don't like 95 degrees. [LAUGHTER] But through health issues, dislocated shoulders, tripping, falling, things like that, but that has kept me going for 20 years and kept me working through the times when it was hot out and not so fun is somebody else that's in the room, and I'm going to embarrass him. My dad is almost completely blind, and what did he do? He's on the Columbia County board, and when his vision started to go, instead of feeling sorry for himself, he joined the Wisconsin Council for the Blind to try to help other people. And it's that kind of inspiration that has kept me going through my own hard times. So, dad, I really would like to credit you with a lot of inspiration for keeping me going. So if you would stand up, please, dad. [APPLAUSE] Turn around. [APPLAUSE]  And don't come late again. [LAUGHTER] I think I just dropped my glasses, too. So, with that,... 

>> I think we should talk to these guys, or have these guys tell us about their experiences with you. >> Oh. [LAUGHTER] >> I'm pretty sure Brian Hudelson has perhaps a story or two that we might enjoy hearing. Brian. >> Yeah, Shelley's giving me the evil eye because she knows I can say some very embarrassing things if I wanted to. >> You have a time limit. [LAUGHTER] >> Yes, I know. I think my first memory was doing that first show and being absolutely terrified. It was very shortly after I had started in the clinic, and I had never done television before. And Shelley made it look really easy, actually. 

As much as you said it was difficult for you, it was a very pleasant experience and I've had a blast doing that. My favorite episode, though, has to be the one where, this was at garden expo, I came up to you and I said, Shelley, we have to talk smut. [LAUGHTER] And that developed into our, well the particular segment I did was "Where Bad Pathogens Go Good," where I talked about how plant pathogens can actually be beneficial, and you did a segment on huitlacoche. >> Which is corn smut. >> Corn smut. That was one of my favorite episodes. So it's been a lot of fun. I enjoy working with you. >> Thank you. >> And I also enjoy the crews because we can really gang up on her really, really well. 

[LAUGHTER] >> And Phil Pellitteri, were you on the first show? >> The second. >> The second show. >> 1992. >> There's always bugs to complain about so that part can be expected. The fun thing, I guess before when I've done stuff we were allowed to make mistakes because they would edit and cut and paste. So to show up the first time and basically we're going to do five-six minutes and there's no cutting and pasting. It was mentioned, a five-minute shoot might take you about 10 turns through and what not. But the crew was just an absolute hoot in the sense you almost wish you were paid for as much fun, I guess, we've had over the years doing these various things. It's not the easiest thing to get excited about a Japanese beetle and be pleasant about it, but we do. [LAUGHTER] >> A Japanese beetle is probably one of those things that 20 years ago we didn't even hear about. 

>> No. My mentor, Chuck Covell, I know some of you know, he said he was going to retire before that critter got going and he did and I've never forgiven Chuck. [LAUGHTER] >> This summer we're going to air a segment on another new critter, the giant cicada killers. >> Yeah, and that's a neat one. It's big and scary looking but it really is pretty much harmless. It's one of these things when I look at my career, one of the big changes has been the climate has allowed many things to move northward. So this is an insect that was a central Illinois or Indianapolis insect, and now we have it in this state, and we will continue to see those kind of changes, especially when we lack the cold weather. I've said it before on Larry's show, the governor moved us to Missouri, he just didn't tell us. [LAUGHTER] >> And if you see this, folks, watch the show this summer because these wasps are about this big, and they look scarier than all get out but they don't want us. They just eat cicadas. 

And I think one of the things Phil and I have tried to do is do preventative maintenance to teach you about insects that you don't need to run and hide from because hopefully this will prevent a lot of phone calls for you. [LAUGHTER] >> Definitely. And the males can't sting, and the females you'd have to tackle one to get stung. So it's pretty harmless. But to look at things, people tend to react to big and ugly in unfavorable ways. [LAUGHTER] >> Especially with wings. >> Yeah. >> And Mark, the Rotary Garden in Janesville has been in existence to 23 years now, and you've been a part of the show, you've been on my show and you've also been on with Shelley. I'm wondering are there any changes in how people look at various plants? Are there some plants now that are a lot more popular, shrubs, trees, that are a lot more popular now maybe than they were 20 years ago? >> That's a great question. I think what I've observed, and something that Shelley has hit on with her shows at the gardens, is the trend toward ornamental edibles. 

The idea that with limited space we can have plants that are beautiful but also functional in the kitchen. And I think with the economy there was a huge, kind of an increase in home gardening, which is very important, but growing vegetables in tight spaces, growing our own food for food safety issues, I think it's been a great trend and plants, our vegetables are beautiful and should be part of our garden's proper. >> And Neil, for you, I think 20 years ago people probably looked at prairies a whole lot differently than they do today. >> A whole lot differently. Let's go back 35 years ago when I first started working with these plants, we were the whack jobs. [LAUGHTER] So some things never change, I guess. [LAUGHTER] >> Well, as you say, I remember when people thought Queen Anne's Lace was a wildflower. >> And I guess you could classify it as such, but it's not the one I would choose first. >> No. >> But when I went into business 30 years ago, every single plant that I grew was a weed. 

Undeniably, certifiably a weed because there were plants that we plowed up to plant crops, and we planted grandma's flowers from Europe or wherever and we plowed up the prairie. And, in fact, some of our local neighbors called us the weed farm. [LAUGHTER] And I assured them you come over and look at my plants and not one of these will be a weed in your field, and they came over and were duly impressed. But it took a long, long time for people to realize that our native prairie flowers are beautiful, not just the flowers but also the grasses. Phenomenal plants. And I have to credit purple coneflower as being the ice breaker because in the mid-'80s, late '80s suddenly purple coneflower was elevated from wildflower to perennial. [LAUGHTER] >> That made it important. >> Made it important. Suddenly the garden gate opened and in came the prairie plants which were excluded before. So, to me, purple coneflower is the Jackie Robinson of prairie plants. 

[LAUGHTER] It broke the weed barrier and has been great ever since then. So it's been a huge change and I think people realize the environmental benefits, the cost savings, the time savings when you do it right and create a native prairie garden, as well as other native prairie plants, you get such benefits all across the board including saving energy, no chemicals or limited chemicals, saving time. >> No fertilizer. >> No fertilizers and the benefits just pile up over time. So it's really changed. >> That's changed a lot. Actually, I've seen a change too and in Garden Talk, which we've been more than 20 years, actually, that show... >> How many years, Larry? >> I've been on the air for about 44 years. [APPLAUSE]  I was 7 years old when I first... [LAUGHTER] >> Nice try. 

He's here to make me look young. [LAUGHTER] Kidding. >> One of the things that I've really noticed, first, there's a whole lot more interest in vegetable gardening right now. >> Yes. >> So we kind of go through cycles with that. 25 years ago we were at sort of a low cycle, I think, in terms of vegetable gardening. Now we're certainly a lot more interested in that. The other thing I think we're much more interested in sort of low input gardening. So the least amount or no herbicides, the least amount of commercial fertilizers. I think there's a much more of an emphasis on that today among our consumers than there probably was 20-25 years ago. 

And so that's been a big change for me. I wondering about you, how have things... [LAUGHTER] How have things changed for you? >> Well, when I started this show, I was coming out of working at Allen Centennial Gardens, and I was an heirloom nut. And people would look at me and go, what's an heirloom? And that's one of the biggest changes. Now when you say I grow heirloom tomatoes, everyone knows what your talking about. And I think that's just exploded. Everybody's, mainstream nurseries, everybody's growing heirlooms, tomatoes, peppers, apples, and when I was first talking about them, people didn't know what I was talking about. Again, the prairie plants, I think the other, one of the exciting things that I've seen on my show is rooftop gardening. >> Yeah. >> And using that to save water, money, energy, keep buildings cooler. 

Like Mark said, also, I think the ornamental edibles has just skyrocketed. Now there's actually a section in seed catalogs for ornamental edibles. And that's always been a passion of mine just because I'm a lazy gardener. If it looks good and I can eat it, hey. [LAUGHTER] Why plant twice? But then, as you said, 20 years ago people were either a vegetable gardener or a flower gardener and never the twain would meet. And now that's changed too because, again, we're condensing, I don't know if our population is all aging or it's just me... [LAUGHTER] But we're making our time more valuable. We're doing ornamental edibles so that we have a pretty garden that's also of use. So, yeah, that's the biggest change. >> Brian, I'm wondering, we haven't talked, I don't think we've talked about diseases and changes in that over time. 

Are you seeing new things that we haven't seen before? >> I think, like Phil, I'm seeing a lot of pathogens more so that have tended to be more southern pathogens. The one that comes to mind which was at Allen Centennial Garden is southern blight which is a fungal disease. It's like the granddaddy of the fungal pathogens. If you're an herbaceous plant in the path of this particular organism, you're dead. >> He gets very excited about this stuff. >> I do. [LAUGHTER] I'm called Dr. Death for a reason. And as Shelley can attest, she's been to my house and to my yard, she knows what diseases lurk in my landscape. I'm actually trying to plant a disease garden on campus, so that will be interesting to see if that actually flies. [LAUGHTER] But that particular pathogen is very, very aggressive but it tends to be more of a southern pathogen, and we have seen that over time that while probably 20-25 years ago that pathogen didn't survive here in Wisconsin, with our warmer winters it is an organism that will stick around. 

And so we have a continuing problem with that. The other big thing with diseases is probably the emphasis on biosecurity, again. After 9/11 there was actually some legislation that came down at the federal level to link together all of the diagnostic network, or diagnostic clinics at land-grant universities into a network. And so we've been spending a lot of time basically doing monitoring for new and exotic both insect pests and also plant diseases. So if any of you are soy bean farmers, soy bean rust was one of the diseases that was big. Or you may have heard of sudden oak death which is a disease coming out of California and Oregon that's another one that's of interest. So that's been a change from what I used to do. >> Well, that's pretty, do you ever have a situation where you receive something in the mail that you kind of question? >> I know where this is going. [LAUGHTER] >> The best sample I've ever had, well, one that I like to get and one that I didn't want to get. The one I got one time was a jar of toilet water. 

Somebody had a fungus growing on their counter top and had whipped down the counter top and then dumped the water into their toilet, and then after they had done that, they decided they wanted to know what the fungus was and they sent it to me. [LAUGHTER] That sat on my shelf for about two weeks before I finally autoclaved it. The one thing that I do like, which I think is a little bit anatomical here, but I love getting calls and getting samples of stink horns. Those are these fungi that look like a particular part of the male anatomy. Let's leave it at that. [LAUGHTER] And I have to say I was in heaven about three years ago. I went on vacation to Disney World and was staying at a Disney resort and I was able to find three different stink horns on property all in the same day. [LAUGHTER] People love to travel with me. I make their lives really exciting. [LAUGHTER] Occupational hazard. 

>> And Phil, what about you? >> Oh. >> You like stink horns too? >> No. Just in the sense, I do see a lot of interesting things. One of the things that's changed, I guess, is right now about 50% of what I'm processing are digital images. And I could make the argument the digital camera has just been the most phenomenal invention in my career a lot of times. So I get to see critters. One of the things is with dealing with the people that we do, I see people just enamored with nature. And so I'm seeing pictures of just neat looking bugs. They're not worrying anymore about things eating their plants and the like, and that's kind of fun. Now, when somebody sends me a rock and tells me that there are little alien insects in there... 

[LAUGHTER] I've got a rock that's been sitting on my lab bench for six months, and they still haven't come out. [LAUGHTER] >> I would like to see that. >> So I do see a few of those samples. But all and all, it's just always fun and we do intercept things for the first time. The people at USDA hate to hear me call them because usually it's something they don't want to know about. And things do change, as I said. There's definitely a dynamic. I can't go through a season without seeing four or five things I've never seen before. >> Isn't that amazing? >> Have we lost anything? We keep getting new problems. Has an insect left? [LAUGHTER] >> One of the changes we expect, again, not so much in this part of the state because we're similar to the climates in Illinois and in Iowa, but in the northern part of the state, the boreal forest, as I said, as things continue to move upwards, we do find things are getting pushed up into Canada and the like, but for the most part it's been more this migration of south coming north. 

>> Can we get rid of the earwigs? >> Earwigs is an interesting one because when I first started my career the only place we had them was along the lake shore in Milwaukee. And I know we had done a show with this. >> Right. >> And being a naive, young entomologist, I said that's the lake effect. [LAUGHTER] So it was the early '80s when they took off in Madison, and to be honest, they made it up to Ashland about five years ago. It takes a long time for an earwig to walk that far. [LAUGHTER] >> It's those little legs. >> So it's an interesting one to watch. One of the things I think you witness with a lot of these invasives is that the first few years they get here, they're the worst. And over time things do settle down. 

>> The Japanese beetle would be an example. >> At least that's my experience. Now the poor people up in Green Bay that are just seeing it, unfortunately they've got about five, six years of misery yet. But you do see a lot of these patterns where things do balance out over time which is, again, I encourage you to understand the dynamics that are going on there. >> One thing that I've seen that I have to give kudos to Mark is when I first went to Rotary Gardens, which was before you were there, it was nice. [LAUGHTER] Before you were there. [LAUGHTER] And that was one of the biggest changes that I've seen is since you've taken over there is just how awesome. I mean, if you haven't been to Rotary Gardens, get there. It has just, to use the phrase, blossomed. [LAUGHTER] You never know what's going to be the featured area every spring. 

My step-mom and I have gone there and spent way too much on heirloom peppers and things. But it's just, again, the creativity that you've shown there, and I would say one of the high points is watching what you've done with things like bananas. I now have a banana sitting in my basement because of the influence of what you've done with that place. And I just want to applaud you for what you've turned that place into. >> Thank you. >> It's fantastic. >> Is that going to cost me a $20 again? [LAUGHTER] >> $50! >> I do want to point out, Rotary Gardens is a group effort, and the volunteerism there is it unbelievable. And for those that volunteer in your community in any capacity, continue to do that and spread the word because in 23 years of history Rotary Gardens would be nothing without our 400 volunteers. >> Well, and the same with this whole event. This would not be here. 

The master gardeners, of which I am, was one of the best educations I've ever gotten even with Jim Schroeder's help. [LAUGHTER] Actually, it was one of the best educations and that's really where the inspiration for the show came from, because I said here is all this information, now how do we get it out to the gardeners? Here were all these experts and how do we get it out to the public? And that's really where The Wisconsin Gardener came from. >> Absolutely. >> I'd like to think in 20 years we've got a better educated community, too, because they're watching this show. >> Maybe you can talk a little bit more about your experience. I should let you know that Neil has an international reputation. He's considered probably the top person, prairie person, in the world. [LAUGHTER] And, actually, he spends some of his time going around helping in other countries, he has visited many other places and has advised other countries, people in other countries on this whole topic. It had to have been a great experience for you to do that? >> It is. It's a lot of fun and sometimes it raises questions, my whole thing is native plants, and when I'm helping a friend in Germany do his prairie garden, it's kind of like, well, are we maybe going to be causing a problem here? And he has the most phenomenal prairie garden south of Frankfurt, and so far none of the plants have escaped. 

This is my big fear. I want to send them something nasty back. [LAUGHTER] And it's great because you get to work with people, not only internationally, but across most of the eastern half of the United States. And it's really gratifying, not only to have that opportunity, but to bring joy to people and in their landscapes and to create, not just flowers and grasses, but to create habitat where you really get the benefits of the whole ecosystem. And that's what I look at as gardening. It's not just plants, it's the whole concept of plant community within the ecosystem. So you get the birds, butterflies, and a lot of people are understanding now the importance of every element of the ecosystem. For instance, who doesn't like hawks? Everybody like hawks? Who likes owls? You hate owls? Everybody likes owls, right? What do they eat? >> Mice. >> Mice and rabbits and things like that. So without the whole ecosystem, you don't have the charismatic macrofauna. 

You got to have those other guys. So for me, I knew my prairie was a success when I had a meadow jumping mouse. Have you ever seen a meadow jumping mouse? They jump like five feet. They have this tail this long, and they don't go in your house. [LAUGHTER] >> We have to talk. >> Now I got the pieces, the whole pieces. And as Aldo Leopold said, the intelligent tinkerer saves all the pieces. You don't trash the environment. You save all the pieces because ultimately we're dependent on those pieces. And that's the message we try to bring. 

And I think that's the big thing I've seen in 20 years from, okay, your plants are weeds to, wow, this is the foundation of life. And that's a huge, huge jump, consciously, for gardeners and for society in general. And we're only starting that process. >> Can you create that in a backyard setting? >> Absolutely. >> Exactly. >> Depends on what you want. You're not going to get -- on 10,000 square feet of prairie, but you can get an amazing diversity of smaller habitat species. Like a friend of mine, he used to live in Minneapolis, had a garden that was an eighth of an acre and he had a bird list and a butterfly list you wouldn't believe in downtown Minneapolis. So the critters find these places as long as it's appropriate for their scale. So you can really do amazing things even in very small spaces. 

>> And Phil and I have talked about the decline of pollinators. And, again, native prairie plants are like manna from heaven. >> Exactly. They're number one as far as total pollinators per square foot or square meter. They're unsurpassed. And what's the number one food of baby birds? Insects. And that's the other thing is to get people past this thing that bugs are bad. >> Right. >> Bugs are good if you want life. If you want death, cut the lawn, spray it, and you won't have any bugs, you won't have any birds, you won't have any butterflies. 

If that's what you want, that's great, but that's not what I want. Most people. So it's just transition from the total control of the environment to what I call a joint venture with nature. Let's live together and by living together we're going to make a better planet and everything will benefit and we'll be better for it. >> Do you do much work with, I know you do a lot of work with homeowners, do you do much work in corporate type settings? Because I think there's really some opportunities, I think I've seen some that were just wonderful. I've seen others that I've thought, oh, why don't they... >> Why is it all gravel? >> Yeah. So comment on that maybe. >> Yeah, a lot of times we've done quite a bit of work with corporate parks and also public parks. Landfills, re-vegetating landfills. 

We're working on a big project in New York City right now. It's 150-acre landfill and they're putting all prairie on it now. And that's low maintenance. And I can talk all I want about the ecology and the energy savings and how it's good for the environment but you talk to the CEO and say I'm going to save you a bunch of money. >> And time and effort. >> Oh, really? Tell me more. So it's really another benefit for a situation where you're mowing endless acres of lawn to what end. Let's convert that to something sustainable that costs you a fraction of a high maintenance one. >> We forgot to talk about the real fun. >> Oh, we're going to talk about burning? [LAUGHTER] >> I actually met Neil, and I don't even know if you know this, I met you at a talk years before this show was in existence. 

And my husband and I were listening to you and came out of that talk thinking, wow. You were talking about burning right up to people's houses without telling them. [LAUGHTER] >> That was when I was eight. [LAUGHTER] >> Okay, yeah. You and Larry. And I have to tell this story because the first thing we did when we moved to our home in Blue Mounds was we put in the prairie. And we listened to you, and I took notes faithfully. so the next year we thought, okay, we got to burn. And so we called the fire department, we put our hard hats on, we put our boots on, we had hoses at every corner and the neighbors came down to watch even. [LAUGHTER] And, well, of course, it was a young prairie, so we lit it... 

[LAUGHTER] And nothing happened. And my neighbors, who were these crusty old farm folks that never let me get away with anything, kind of like my camera crew, they sat there for about five minutes, and then my neighbor Carol said, I'll go get some kerosene. [LAUGHTER] And I thought of you that day, Neil. [LAUGHTER] >> Well, at least you were safe. [LAUGHTER] >> And the second year then when it had grown up, we didn't take any precautions because we figured it would be as pitiful. And as I brushed off my eyebrows, I said that was fun, let's do it again. [LAUGHTER] >> If you haven't burned some hair, you haven't burned a prairie. [LAUGHTER] >> Talk about low maintenance, one conflagration and you're done. >> Fun maintenance. >> Yeah. 

>> Yeah, fun maintenance. >> But you got to set it up right. >> Right and you should call the fire department and not get too close to the siding, because vinyl siding melts. [LAUGHTER] >> I did that to my office. >> See. Now he's admitting it. >> My problem is at my house I'm always burning every spring. And if I ever actually have a house fire, I'm in trouble because my neighbors will never call. Oh, that's just Neil, just burning Neil. [LAUGHTER] >> Again, that's a change in 20 years. 

People have come to accept that. You say I'm burning my prairie. The first year the fire department says, well, if somebody calls we're going to have to be there. As it turned out, it wasn't an issue. [LAUGHTER] >> And we're really lucky, it's interesting because as long as you're not in an urban area in Wisconsin you have the right to burn in almost every situation as long as it's not a drought situation where there's a burning bin. We have many customers who are farther east, and for them burning is virtually impossible because it is banned, banned, and banned, and people have no understanding of the benefits of burning. So to me it's like a birthright. You can't burn, you better not live there. [LAUGHTER] And I have three basic things that are required for me to live somewhere. I have to be able to leave the keys in the car at night. 

I got to be able fertilize the garden naturally. [LAUGHTER] Without anybody seeing. [LAUGHTER] And I've got to burn. And if those three things aren't met, it's time to move. But we are really fortunate that we have the opportunity to use fire as a management tool. And this was the tool the Native Americans used to create or help to promote the prairies by burning down trees, opening their land up for prairie flowers and grasses because it made for better hunting and various other benefits. So we're just continuing a long, long tradition over the last 12,000-13,000 years from the people that helped create these prairies over time. And so it's really good that we have that. So don't take my burning rights away. [LAUGHTER] >> Okay, well let's see if we can get him off of this. 

[LAUGHTER] >> I wanted to ask Mark a question about the Rotary Garden and botanical gardens, I was thinking of the gardens that we have here in Wisconsin. We have some pretty nice ones. I know there was some fundraising going on for the Green Bay Botanical Garden before it was even built. A listener to my show came and asked me if I would talk at a fundraiser, and I said what do you want me to talk about? And she said the role of botanical gardens in the 21st century. And I said, I don't know anything about the role of botanical gardens in the 21st century. But I wound up actually researching it, like a journalist would do, and I gave that talk and I think it was well received. But that garden, the botanical garden there is just going great. What's your take on the gardens we have here across Wisconsin? We have some great ones. >> Absolutely top notch. Without a doubt. 

Here in Madison, of course, Olbrich, Allen Centennial. Boerner over near Milwaukee. The Green Bay Botanic Garden is wonderful. There's a garden in Appleton. I encourage people to travel and really see what's going on, and, of course, being this far south, if you head into Illinois, there's Chicago Botanic and some other great resources. >> Anderson. >> Anderson Gardens in Rockford. The mission of many of the gardens, including our own, is education. Our sole mission is education. And I'm involved with the flowers and the outside portion of it but using that outdoor living museum to educate everyone. 

And to me, most importantly, the youth. This disconnect with where our vegetables come from and the idea of getting these kids out of their video game dungeons and having them plant and get  involved is so important. And we have a huge amount of programming for youth and also families in general. Absolutely vital. >> And I think that's true, if you went to Green Bay or Boerner or Olbrich, any of them, they all have great educational programs, I think, going on. >> Yeah. >> Do you, Phil, you do some of that too. You get around. >> We have done programs at all those places mentioned and stuff. And sometimes, on the insect side, we're looking the at a little different picture. 

Most the time, honestly, when I'm out people want to talk about the 1% of insects that are not so good. >> Sure. >> But the reality is there's lots of really interesting creatures out there and it's fun. And the fun thing with kids is they're enamored with any insect. They don't have any of these biases, so they're fun for work with. >> It's probably tougher for you, Brian. >> Everything is. [LAUGHTER] I tell folks I'm the harbinger of death and doom. [LAUGHTER] >> If it's alive, he's not happy. [LAUGHTER] >> I have to say people are very, very sympathetic, I guess, to me. 

Maybe they feel sorry for me because of the job that I do, but I do get a sense when I talk to people that I can excite them sometimes about what I look at, and hopefully I've done that. I do a lot of master gardener training, and the best thing that can happen to me after I give my master gardener talk is to have someone come up to me and say I was really dreading coming to this class tonight but this kind of stuff is kind of cool, actually. So when I hear something like that it makes it very worthwhile. But, yeah, I deal with pretty much rotting, slimy. We did do our slime in a bag segment one time. >> Yeah, we did that. >> So everything that I see is pretty much rotten. Although, I have to say, my favorite disease probably, because it is bright and colorful, is cedar apple rust. And we're getting to the time where you can watch for this. >> Something to look forward to. 

[LAUGHTER] >> What does it look like? >> Mid-May to mid-June, check your junipers, particularly if you have red cedar. And when you start to see those great big marmaladey, slimy masses on the branches, that's cedar apple rust. And probably the best story I've ever heard from a plant pathological standpoint was from our former head of grounds who came in and had been talking to a student on the UW-Madison campus, and it was that mid-May, early June period, and the student said this is my favorite time of the year, because it's when the junipers bloom. [LAUGHTER] And I felt really good about that because that was a pathogen that they were looking at. [LAUGHTER] >> What pretty flowers...! >> Yeah. [LAUGHTER] >> Well, you're leading into something else, I think, that has changed in the last 20 years and that's integrated pest management. Instead of looking at a disease or an insect after it's here, or a problem, and going now what do we do? In fact, we've really emphasized this on The Wisconsin Gardener, too, looking ahead and going, okay, if you see this, it's too late. So back up to the spring or the fall before and do proper cleanup and do what we can to not have to deal with the disease or the insect. >> Or go back even further and don't plant that. >> Right. 

>> My favorite example Colorado Blue Spruce. >> I was just going to say. We used, I think, my yard to show all of the evergreens that you should not plant. [LAUGHTER] >> Of course, with me, hazard of my occupation, you tell me any plant and I'll tell you what will go wrong with it. [LAUGHTER] >> Dr. Doom is, yeah. But you also, this is a good chance, as we get a little closer to the end, hard question to ask people: favorite moment, whether it's either involving your area of expertise or even The Wisconsin Gardener, favorite moment in the last 20 years? Larry. >> I've so many, especially for the Garden Talk show. I've had a lot of great memories. I think one kind of nice surprise I had once, I'm trying to remember now who I was talking with, but we got a call in and it was a caller who was calling in from Germany. Live on the show. 

>> Wow. >> And so that was kind of a neat surprise. I once had a person on, this is a totally different topic, to talk about dealing with stress and she stressed out and couldn't answer the questions. [LAUGHTER] >> I don't know, Germany, stress, Germany, stress. I don't know. >> I asked a question and then I had to answer it myself. [LAUGHTER] And then I asked her another one and had to answer that one, and somebody actually called and asked a question, and I saw that nothing was coming out so I said before you say something, let me. [LAUGHTER] >> You handle that really well. >> And after that, she was fine after that third one. But then the next day and for the next two or three days I got emails of comments from people that essentially was, why don't you let your guests do the talking? [LAUGHTER] >> I have had that comment occasionally. 

[LAUGHTER] That's funny. Neil. >> Boy, that's a really hard question to answer, but I guess one of the more interesting moments was I was giving a lecture at the University of Northern Illinois and it was an hour lecture and I got to the end, and, of course, the end is always the big fire pictures with the great big flames and everything. And just as I get into it all the sudden the fire alarms start going off. [LAUGHTER] Like, cue the fire alarms, here's the fire pictures. And everybody had to leave and I never got to finish that lecture. [LAUGHTER] But it was perfect timing. >> We have a few minutes left. Phil, how do you beat that? >> Well, I can just think of a minor point. When I was growing up I would have traded you either my sister or my bike for a giant swallowtail, which, honestly, the swallowtails had a heck of a good year. 

I hope people appreciated that because all of the swallowtails were doing well. So I had never collected one. And then we were over by Blue Mounds Park, not far from Shelley's house, with my kids and we started a family insect collection. And it turned out my son caught a giant swallowtail. So that was neat. We had a specimen for the collection, and, of course, being a typical kid, for the last 20 years I've heard how his incompetent dad couldn't catch one. [LAUGHTER] So it's fun. >> I think for me it was actually getting the job that I do now. I love my job. I really do. 

I get to meet a lot of cool people. Larry, Shelley, I guess you're cool. [LAUGHTER] But I get to meet a lot of really cool people, and I get to see a lot of really cool stuff. And it's been very, very enjoyable for me. I was trained as an epidemiologist, actually, and I did a lot of mathematical stuff in my thesis and just being able to actually work with plants and work with disease-causing organisms and get people to think they're kind of cool, that's been really fun for me. >> Cool. >> Besides every time you visited the garden, which were always enjoyable. >> Okay, I'll give you 50 later. [LAUGHTER] >> We're square. I think my favorite moment was last year we had a young mother, probably 24-25, who came in and had a young daughter and what was neat was the mother said she had come to the gardens as a kindergartner. 

>> Oh, wow. >> And now we're seeing the second generation. We're seeing the kids of the first children that were educated at the gardens coming and that Rotary Gardens has become ingrained, not only in the community, but with our visitors. So it will be nice in a hundred years to have this progression of people visiting and enjoying the gardens. >> And you'll still be there. >> Probably. [LAUGHTER] >> My highlight, I would have to say, is just all of the wonderful people and friends I've made doing this job for 20 years. I've been very, very, very blessed. And a thank you gift we are giving the panel, not you guys, sorry. [LAUGHTER] If you guys would come back to the booth afterward so we're not trying these on in front of everybody... 

[LAUGHTER] We've got a 20-year commemorative t-shirt that we're giving to these guys for giving up their time and to say thank you for everything you guys have done. >> Thank you, Shelley. [APPLAUSE]  >> This was not meant for me, by the way. >> It looks lovely. >> But this is just a token of appreciation for 20 wonderful years. You've done just an absolutely marvelous job, Shelley. >> Thank you. >> And what else are you going to receive but flowers. So pass that on. >> Thank you. 

[APPLAUSE] Thank you. [APPLAUSE]  They're not edible! [LAUGHTER] >> Well, you never know. >> I can try them. Thank you, all, for joining us. >> It's been fun.