Wisconsin Public Television University Place Entrepreneurship In Society  Cathy Dethmers A Conversation With Cathy Dethmers  September 14, 2011 UP620  cc >> Jeanan Yasiri: I want to welcome everybody to a course called Entrepreneurship in Society. It's a course that is offered through the University of Wisconsin-Madison. I'm Jeanan Yasiri. And as we begin today I'd like to extend thanks to some very special partners who make this course possible: the UW Office of Corporate Relations, the UW College of Engineering for their technical support, and the Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation which provides financial support for this course. The Kauffman Foundation, based out the Kansas City, Missouri, and they are committed to advancing academic education in entrepreneurship. Additionally, we'd like to thank our media partners, Wisconsin Public Television and their University Place crew for taping today's lecture. I'm really pleased to introduce our first guest lecturer of the semester. She is Cathy Dethmers. She is owner of the Madison-based High Noon Saloon. And I'll bet a number of you have had an opportunity to go to the High Noon Saloon. 

It's a very fun place. Just as a point of background, Cathy graduated from the UW Madison of May of 1994, and then in November of that year she opened up a live music venue called O'Cayz Corral. O'Cayz featured mostly rock and punk and metal shows, as well as weekly blues jams and Irish rock nights. And on New Year's day, seven years after she opened O'Cayz, it was destroyed in a fire that started, actually, in the bar next door. For the following three and a half years after that devastation, Cathy worked hard at identifying a new location for her business and in 2004 opened High Noon Saloon, a venue that hosts live music in all genres seven nights a week. That experience, among others, is what I've asked Cathy to share with us today. She's a real hands-on business owner and entrepreneur. She manages all aspects of her business including marketing and bookkeeping, day-to-day operations, the entertainment booking, all the staffing, etc. In fact, when I was calling Cathy to try and set her up for this, everybody that answered the phone wanted to know when I was trying to book my band, and I said, well, I'm sorry I can't bring one. I think that Cathy's story is an excellent way for us to start our discussion of entrepreneurship and it is one that I thought appropriately should be titled starting from scratch and then starting all over again. 

I know you join me in welcoming Cathy Dethmers. [APPLAUSE] >> Cathy Dethmers: Thank you. >> Yasiri: Cathy, you've got a remarkable story to tell, and I know that we'll get into some of the challenges that your business has had over the time, but let's kind of go back a little bit and let's understand really who Cathy Dethmers is first. Did you always know that you wanted to run a night club? >> Dethmers: Definitely not always. When I moved to Madison to go to the UW, I started out in psychology and then switched fairly quickly to cultural anthropology as my major and didn't really have a very solid career plan in place at that point. Just was kind of taking classes I was interested in. But I've always been interested in live music. I grew up in a musical family, and I've played instruments my whole life. Since I was 14 started going to see live music shows and it just kind of always been a passion of mine. So I started bartending at O'Cayz while I was in college here, and actually, oddly enough, on a different New Year's Eve showed up for work and found out that the bar was going to be closing the very next day. 

And this was at the beginning of my last semester of school. So I was kind of casting about trying to figure out what I was gong to do once I graduated and found that I really missed the place. I missed the music scene there and just kind of being part of that and part of just kind of making it all happen. And so once I graduated I started looking into what it would take to reopen the place. And I didn't have any business experience and I didn't have any business classes under my belt but found that the previous owner was willing to rent the space and willing to have me start a business there. So that summer I spent a lot of time in the library, a lot of time talking to other business owners that I knew, just kind of trying to figure out what it would take for me to get things rolling. And I was able to open by November of that year. >> Kind of a gutsy move if you think about it. You were just graduating from college in an area that really had nothing whatsoever to do with this kind of business. Can you tell us what you were thinking at that time in your life that really enabled you to take that kind of a risk? >> Yeah, I think part of it was just panic. 

Graduating and not sure what I was going to do. Having some family pressure like figure it out. And I thought it would be an exciting career choice. I felt like I had a little bit of experience just from having worked there for a couple of years and being there and just seeing what happened day-to-day. I certainly didn't have a role in making that happen at the time, but I felt like if I did a lot of research and just put my drive to the test that I could probably, I don't know, sort of reinvent that in my own way and make it work. >> Owning your own place, and again I don't mean to be ageist about it, you were a young person, you were kind of developing your business acumen and your knowledge of the business as you went, did it seem like a burden to you to be opening your own place or kind of a thrill? >> Definitely more of a thrill. It was a ton of work but I was kind of ready for that and I kind of wanted to see what I could do. It was a challenge that I was giving to myself, and I think the fact that I chose a business that already surrounded something I was passionate about made it that much easier and more exciting to come to work every day and try and make it happen. >> We'll be hearing a lot of different lessons over the course of the semester. Some of the students will be hearing from and even considering going into business with family members or friends as partners or all kinds of other folks who might be related in some way. 

Were you completely on your own or were you working with other people in this venture? >> I guess I'd say for the most part I was on my own. I did rehire a couple of staff members that I had worked with there previously. At the time, the guy that had been booking the music, well he had booked the music for a short period of time, I got him to come back. So he had had some experience in that part of the field which I had not dealt with before. And other than that I had a lot of supportive friends that had gone to the place when I was just working there and they just really helped me feel confident that I could pull it off and were supportive by coming there as some of my first customers. I guess I just kind of went for it. >> Sounds excellent. I know at one point we had talked about your earliest stages in the business, and I'll want you to extrapolate on it too in the work you're doing today years later, but was it more difficult as a woman and as  a young woman to get involved in this business? Were there barriers to it? >> I would say it was. I didn't really necessarily anticipate that going in because I had no expectations for what would happen at all, but yeah, I would say, well, I mean so this is what, almost 20 years ago. >> Amazing. 

>> At that time the music industry in general was really male-dominated. I would say it's not so much that way today. But I did get a lot of flack from booking agents and other people just on the music side of the business who didn't necessarily trust that I was going to be able to, I don't know, come through with my promises for their bands and take good care of them and do a good job of marketing and all that kind of thing. Beyond that, even just getting city approvals like liquor license and all of that kind of thing, it was definitely a lot trickier process, a lot more obstacles were put in my way. It was sort of like I had to prove myself more than anyone else had to I think because I was young as much as because I was female. >> Before we go into the story of what happened with O'Cayz and eventually what brought you where you are today, I want to talk a little bit about the work that you were doing early on. So often when people are starting their own business or enterprise they think that they literally have to do it all. And you are doing so many aspects of the business. Did you hire people, though, to help do specific professional technical work? You're talking about going and having to manage liquor license issues, that sounds like legal. Obviously all the accounting might require a CPA. 

Did you do it or hire folks? >> I did have a lawyer that helped me deal with, well, I guess actually I did most of the business set up on my own. That was stuff I could learn how to do. It took a lot of digging and research but all of the Wisconsin State Code is all there. So that stuff I did on my own. I did have a lawyer that helped me make sure my lease was solid when I first started the business and help point me in the right direction on a couple of things. And then I started out doing things like payroll taxes and that kind of business set up where you have to make sure that you have your ducks in a row financially every month. I started doing that on my own but did end up finding an accountant to help me with year-end taxes because I have a corporation and some of that was just more than I wanted to really take on as far as learning. So I've certainly had to hire professionals to help me with certain aspects of the business, but as far as within the brick walls of my space for the most part I'm in charge of what goes on. >> A big part of your story is this remarkable and several year transition from O'Cayz to High Noon Saloon. Tell us about what happened with O'Cayz. 

>> Well, it was New Year's Eve and we had a great night and I got out of there about 6:00 in the morning and headed home and within five minutes got a call that there was smoke coming in. The rest of my staff was still closing up the place, and it turned out that a fire had started in the bar next door after they closed and it wiped us both out. The very next day I was making calls trying to find out can I buy the land, what can I do to rebuild right where I was. And that was not financially feasible for me. I had a little bit of insurance but not much and not a lot else to speak of to start a new business with. So I started a search for another spot where I could rent, and it turned out to be a really huge long process because there's a ton of rules that you have to be conscious of as far as what the city will require for parking and for neighborhood acceptance of your business, particularly for one like mine. And then of course location, location, location is important. And financially, too, finding a space that I could afford and that I thought would be viable for my business. So I had a number of false starts, places that I thought were going to work out and then something fell apart. Often not really anything to do with my specific business but something to do with whoever I was going to be renting from or city approvals for some other piece of the puzzle. 

So it took me quite a while and lots of different types of plans and lots of different meetings with neighborhoods and with the city. And I actually got approved a couple of times for different locations and then whatever else happened to make that fall apart. Finally ended up where I am. >> And your location right now is just off East Washington Avenue. >> That's right. >> Whereas, O'Cayz used to be on Wilson Street. Not too far away but nevertheless a distance. >> Yeah, I'm really just about four blocks from where I started. >> You went on this journey to rebuild your business and it took three and a half years, am I right? >> That's right. >> Talk a little bit about how you were managing that as Cathy, not just as the businessperson that was trying to rebuild her business, but psychologically, how were you managing that? How could you sustain it for three and a half years? >> I don't know. 

If I had to do it over again I would definitely take a vacation somewhere in there because I was really just so driven to reopen that I worked on it that whole time. And meanwhile I had to work other jobs just for income. So it was actually kind of a crazier time than ever while owning a business because I was working full time, trying to find a place, and trying to get my ducks in a row as far as approvals and anything else, and then also working jobs to kind of survive and try to build up some cash flow to have for when I was able to start a business. So it was hard. There were a couple of times I wanted to give up, especially after I had been working hard towards one location and then it would fall apart. But part of what kept me going was I had a lot of community support from people that really missed O'Cayz and really wanted to see me reopen. In some ways that helped keep we going when I wanted to give up because I didn't want to give up and disappoint so many people, and also it was really nice to know that they believed in me that I could make it happen. >> The location that you're at right now you mentioned is about four blocks away from where you were and I know it to be a high traffic area, is it where you wanted to be ultimately? It's a great place for you? >> Yeah, I think it was a little bit of a gamble when we first moved in there because it was kind of a dead zone and in the middle of tons of construction, but kind of thinking long-range it seems like it was a good spot. In some ways it would be nice to be closer to campus, be a little bit easier for students to reach us. But I think as far as being part of the general downtown and kind of looking out at what the city plans to do with that whole strip on East Washington and the area in general, I think we're in a good spot. 

>> And had you any knowledge of those kinds of discussions at the time you put High Noon where it is right now. Because that's really transformed that discussion of that area has transpired in just the last few years. >> Yeah, it ended up being something I really learned a lot about through all of my multiple meetings with the city. I had learned a lot more about how the city functions than I ever thought I would just kind of by being there and being kind of part of those discussions. So I did know a little bit about what their plans were and of course they've changed with the economy tanking and trying to resurface. But I think long-range it's still going to be a big part of what the city's trying to develop. >> Some of what we are going to explore over the course of this semester are some overarching themes in regard to entrepreneurs. And some of those themes involve how passionate people are about the work that they do, how much risk they take on, how innovative they have to be, and innovation can come in a number of forms as we can imagine, new products, new services, new ways of doing things, if you were to step back and think about risks that you took, share some of them with us and the lessons that you may have learned from them. >> Okay. Well, I guess probably the biggest risk was financial. 

When I started O'Cayz I was just fresh out of college so I didn't really have anything. So that maybe wasn't as big a financial risk then. I was able to get a couple of friends that had some money to invest in me and get it going that way. But with High Noon I had to get a big bank loan and I put every penny that I had ever saved into it and that was a really, really scary moment. Opening day was exciting and one of the best days of my life, and I showed up for work the next morning and it just all hit me like oh, my gosh, I've put everything I have into this, what if it doesn't work? Which is always possible. So it was kind of a roller coaster those first couple months especially because we did open in a huge construction zone and it was hard for people to find us and there was some worry if people would make the effort and all of that. So I would say that's probably, even on an emotional level, that was the biggest risk. Just knowing that I could really devastate my life and have to dig out of a hole for years to come if it didn't pan out for me. Beyond that, I guess the fact that I work so much and that I am so hands-on with the business. It's put my social life at risk and relationships at risk and that kind of thing. 

It's been a really tough balancing act trying to make that all kind of work out. And it's something that I've had to learn some tough lessons to get to a place where I feel that now I'm kind of balancing it in a way that's a little bit more healthy. >> At one point when we were talking prior to your coming to the class, I asked you if you had a mentor who helped you through this process, and it's also one of the lessons that we'll talk about over the course of the semester how important it is to connect with people who can inspire you and sometimes teach you and sometimes it's just kick you in the butt and get you going, tell us about whether or not you had a mentor, who it was, and what he or she did for you. >> When I first was trying to put together my plans for O'Cayz I was actually working at Triangle Market on State Street, and the owner there had just recently purchased the store and so he had been through some similar things that I had to do with the city as far as getting licensing. And he had also had to get a bank loan, which at the time I thought I would have to do as well. So he set up some meetings for me with some of the bankers that he had talked to and kind of walked me through that process a little bit. And I think that just beyond the information that he imparted to me, he just helped build up my confidence that it was something I could actually do. Because I was a little insecure being young and just graduating and he didn't look at it that way. He said sure put your mind to it, and just make it happen. So I think that was really important at the time. 

>> How long did you stay in touch with that person? >> A couple years at least. I'd occasionally stop by the store, and he had a staff party at O'Cayz that first year just to kind of support me. I don't think he has the store anymore so I don't see him. >> Sometimes those relationships can last for years and that was part of the reason I was asking. Talk with us about some of the innovative ideas you've had. The students might be thinking now what can be innovative about a night club, about a music venue, but we know that innovation can come in a lot of different forms with virtually any enterprise. And I was delighted when I asked you this earlier and you came up with a very interesting answer. >> Well, I had sort of started out at O'Cayz doing a lot of rock shows, punk shows, and just kind of having a club where we had shows that started at 10 o'clock at night and that was kind of all we did. And I guess in all of my planning for High Noon through those three and a half years, I just sorted pictured I would just rebuild and do the same kind of thing again but just have a bigger space. But once I got that bigger space open and realized that wasn't going to be enough to pay the bills just doing that same sort of formula, I had to do a lot of thinking about what else might work, and I felt that the space that we had because it was bigger and it was newer and it was nicer looking than my previous spot kind of opened the door for us to attract different types of crowds and maybe just utilize the space in ways that went beyond the rock show formula. 

So one of the things that I came up with was doing what we call a happy hour show which is we do a rock show or some other kind of music or entertainment early. So it's not like 10 o'clock time where a lot of people work the day or have school or have kids and just can't stay out that late can't make it to. So now we do music at 5:30, and we can still have a show later and this sort of doubles our opportunity to have an audience if we do two different things in the day. And we get a different type of crowd for each. And that's been something that we just tried as an experiment with one regular band, and they would do it twice a month but it got so popular that other bands started coming to me and saying we really want to play the happy hour show, that's better for us. And I get tons of feedback from people that come to the shows and say I would never be able to see live music if it weren't for these shows. So it's something that has really worked out and now we do them, I don't know, two to four times a week probably. >> Pretty interesting and I am of the generation that is much more likely to be at a happy hour show than up past 9 o'clock, as sad as that probably sounds, but nevertheless I'm imagining that you were probably hearing your customer. Even if it was a customer that wasn't walking through the door already. How did you come up with that? You saw that it was popular but was it customers who shared that with you? >> Yeah, it was partially customers sharing it and partially just sort of seeing it because I was used to a regular crowd at O'Cayz. 

So I was there seven years, fast forward three and a half more years while I was looking for a new space. All of the sudden these people that were my regulars there are 10 years older. Their lives have changed. They can't necessarily come out every night at 10 o'clock and stay till bar time. And I just started realizing that all these people that were still really supportive of me and really loved live music, I wasn't seeing them come out anymore, why is that? And that was kind of what started the whole thing. >> I'm going to open the stage up for questions from the students here very shortly, but before I do that I'm going to ask you to reflect on a failure that you had that may have taught you a lesson that you're comfortable sharing and might also be something that students could learn from. >> Okay. That one's a little tougher. Not that I haven't failed...  >> Or mistakes. 

A mistake? >> Okay, mistakes may be a little easier. So in being excited and feeling all the pressure to get High Noon open after all of those false starts, at this new location I think maybe I was a little bit, I don't know, I moved maybe a little more quickly through the lease process than I probably should have and put a lot more trust into my new landlord than I probably should have, and that came back to bite me. I was the first one in the building so I was, I guess, the anchor tenant and they promised me that they would sort of build the rest of the tenants in there kind of around what I was doing. So my music wouldn't be a problem, my noise wouldn't be a problem, the hours that the venue would be open wouldn't be a problem, and ultimately that turned out not to be the case and they put in a tenant that I was a problem for and suddenly instead of me having precedence because I was there first, I had to close and I had to tear out my floor, tear out my stage, pour six inches of concrete, do all this sound proofing. Things that took me out of business for more than a week that involved many, many, many thousands of dollars worth of expense on my part and also legal fees and everything else to just kind of go through the process. And it was an extremely stressful year of my life trying to deal with all of that. And I guess, long story short, the main thing I learned is you can't trust that every person you're going to deal with in your business is going to have the same value system as you and is going to be someone that's going to be looking out for your best interest. You have to really protect yourself and make sure that you're reading between the lines and getting good legal help when you need it and just making sure that your kind of paying attention to what all possible downfalls could be that would affect you business-wise and financially. >> Thanks for sharing that, Cathy. It's always more difficult to talk about our mistakes than our successes, and we'll ask you about that too in just a second. 

I have a student who has a question, and I just want to remind the class that for those of you who have a question just kind of put your hand up and I'll bring the mic over to you and let you share your name. >> My name is Sarah, and I am in the textile and fashion program, and my question is in design industry there is a palpable product that you can hold on to, in your industry how do you create an atmosphere that makes the consumer want to come back? Like what kind of memorable things do you try to create so that they have this idea that they loved the place and it's somewhere where they feel comfortable and want to come back to? Additionally, do you choose the shows based on your preferences, do you get feedback from customers, and, I don't know, does someone book the shows for you? How does that work exactly? >> Sure. I'll start with the second part. I book the shows, for the most part, myself. I do work with some outside promoters who will approach me with a show idea or a band that they want to book, and then I'll kind of filter it onto my calendar if it seems like something we'd want to have there. I don't book according to my own preferences usually. Ultimately, we're a place that makes money off of selling drinks. So I need to have bands in there that I know are going to draw people that are going to buy drinks. So aside from knowing that I need to get X number of people through the door on a regular basis, I also am kind of paying attention to what bands have played here in the past that have brought in a big crowd, what bands are kind of up-coming that have a lot of buzz right now that are likely to bring a lot of people into the room, and in addition to that, are these bands that are going to bring people that will just drink water or will they be more into a party atmosphere and having a good time and spending some money. And I guess for the first part of your question, I think a lot of it, well, in some ways because we're a live music venue we're all about making people have a good time, and so part of that is just going to be a natural part of the process because if someone's coming to see a band that they really like, unless something goes horribly wrong, they're probably going to enjoy themselves. 

But the things that I try to do on our end to sort of ensure that that will happen is I try to make sure that I have a really knowledgeable and friendly staff that makes people feel comfortable. We try and make the space itself be a comfortable atmosphere. A place where people can feel more at home rather than maybe like some concert venues that maybe you've been to where everything feels very regimented and just kind of like you're a cog in the machine. I guess we try and make it have a little bit more of a neighborhood bar feel rather than a major concert venue feel just so that it is kind of more homey, if that makes any sense. >> We have a question back here. >> I'm Hannah, by the way. My original question for you was how involved you were at High Noon Saloon because I know from personal experience, my dad owns small stores like you and I know he's rarely ever there, but you kind of answered saying you have a lot of hands-on work. So a typical question, I guess, is what's a typical work day like for you? >> Okay, well, usually I'm there for about, I guess I don't have a typical one. So my week varies a little bit. I have office hours. 

I go in, usually, in the morning and I'm there typically between six and eight hours working on booking bands, doing book work, paying taxes, working on payroll, dealing with staff issues like scheduling or having staff meetings or anything that's involved kind of with PR with the staff, prepping for that night's event. A lot of that happens when my employees come in for their shifts. A lot of the bartenders deal with kind of welcoming the bands and getting them set up and making sure that things are starting to flow smoothly for customers and such. But because I do the band booking I have to give them kind of a lot of information in advance so that they're prepared and know what the specifics are for any given show. So there's a lot of that stuff that I do. I also deal with marketing so every week I'm proofing ads or I'm sending out information to my graphic artist for fliers. Kind of fielding calls from people that want to get me to advertise with them. We do a lot of work with our website and with social media so I'm kind of keeping on top of that. I'm sure there are other things that come up, but those are sort of my regular office hours types of things. And then I also bartend a couple of nights a week because I really like to, besides the fact I enjoy it, I really like to be connected with not only my staff but customers that come in and the bands that I've booked, and a really good way for me to do that is to just be there and be right in the thick of it. 

So I guess that's kind of my typical week. >> We have a question over here. >> My name's Andrew Larson. I was wondering, going off of that and referencing your article from April where you said it's a very stressful environment obviously and you can't continue to do it till you're 65, have you ever considered delegating responsibilities and possibly opening new venues taking more of a hands-off approach? >> Yes, and I have actually, it probably doesn't sound like it, but I have delegated quite a lot from what I did when I first opened. I have an office assistant that works full time, deals with a lot of the book work and takes phone calls from customers and deals with concert ticket sales and helps me out with a lot of the marketing stuff, and I do have a really great staff that's been with me, many of them, since we opened. So they have a really strong knowledge and understanding of what needs to happen day-to-day just to make things run smoothly. And I have been working on delegating more and more as I go. And certainly my work weeks now are about half what they used to be. When I first opened I was working 70-plus hours every single week, and now I'm down to more like between 40 and 50. And it's a lot more manageable. 

I think part of it is my personality. I really like to be hands-on. The business is kind of like my baby and I just like to sort of nurture it and find ways to keep growing it and trying to always think of new ideas for things that might be successful there. So I think I'm on kind of a process of maybe phasing myself out a little bit more, but for now I'm pretty satisfied with where I am. I think as far as trying to open another business and be more hands-off, right now that feels like that would be too much to take on, but I can see that maybe being something I would do in the future. >> Hi, my name is Mitch and my question is related more to your advertising as far as what would you say your split is between print advertising and social media? And also, what have you found that doesn't work for advertising for your business? >> Okay, as far as print goes, I've definitely scaled that back over the last few years. It's become less and less viable it seems. I'm in The Isthmus and in The Onion every week, but that's the only regular print that I do. Social media certainly has become a much bigger piece of the puzzle. And in some ways that's great because it's free, but in other ways it's a lot more time consuming than paying a newspaper or paying a radio station to take care of your advertising for you. 

So as far as what works and what doesn't work, I think social media is just going to continue to grow and be sort of the way that you need to be aiming your efforts. Over the last seven years, I've tried tons of different types of advertising. I was on cable for a while. I was on network TV for a while with commercials. I think those had sort of limited success. Definitely I got feedback that people saw them, but whether or not that was drawing any new customers it was a little bit hard to tell. I think in general that's one of the issues that comes up with advertising is there's not really a very good way to track how well it's doing. With social media you actually can, a little bit, figure that out. Because I think it's quicker and easier for people to give you some response about what you're putting out there. So you can get a feel for how many people are seeing a certain thing or are interested in what you're saying. 

I think some radio that I've done as well has been probably a waste of money. I mean, for me it's a little bit tough because my demographic is so wide. I'm not aiming towards a specific age group or anything like that. I'm really, because we do so many different genres of music and we have so many different types of events going on at different times of the day, I'm really, I'm trying to reach everybody. So it's a tall order but I'm hoping that with what we're doing, kind of the spread of what we're doing with advertising that we're reaching most people. >> Hi, my name is Spencer and I was basically just wondering if you were hesitant to go and ask friends for funding when you needed the money because oftentimes people have said they like to avoid using close ones because it can put a strain on things if something does go wrong. And then had the O'Cayz burned down, how did they react? >> Sure. I was definitely hesitant but at the time I wasn't able to get a bank loan. I think ultimately I was just viewed as too young and inexperienced so everybody shot me down. So I really didn't have another option at that time, and I think that that gave me the guts to ask. 

I wasn't asking for a lot of money. It didn't take much for me to get O'Cayz started. So that helped. And I worked out a really favorable deal with them as far as payback and dividends as shares of my corporation. So I think both of them felt comfortable giving up what they had to make that happen. They had already received a decent amount of return, like definitely more than their investments, by the time the fire happened so I think that that kind of negated any negative emotion towards me about it. I think in general they were just bummed out that the place burned down, just like I was. >> Hi, I'm Rachel. I was just wondering if you ever in your business adventure experienced life interferences. I'm doing event planning right now and I'm dealing with a lot of, I have school, I have work, I have a bunch of different things going on. 

I was wondering if you had to deal with that and how did you go about dealing with that? >> So you mean just how I've managed to balance kind of real life with work? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, okay. I like to think I'm getting better at doing that and finding a good balance but I definitely think for a long period of time I always prioritized the business, and I think it just got to a point where the people in my life started to understand that that was just the way things would be, and I definitely lost some relationships over it but also I've had a lot of support in my life. People have understood that that's important to me and to the success of the business and, I guess, who understood that I would try to repay them or get back to them when I could. When I met who's now my husband, he really made a point of making me see that having a life and having relationships with people that were rewarding was just as important as making sure that the business would be run successfully and that there was a balance that I could find, I just needed to make more of an effort to get there. And I think that I have kind of found that. It's been hard for me to back away from the business as much as I have, but I've also found that it's, I don't know, I guess as I'm growing older, I'm realizing I don't want to miss out on everything fun in life just because I'm focused on this one thing. So I guess I've just found a way for it to work, but I don't have a magic formula for it, that's for sure. >> Hi, how's it going? My name is Bruno Rodriguez. I guess my question is about how you mentioned your location was in somewhat a dead zone. 

I guess I'm curious about what efforts you made to reach the campus population? Like have you thought about doing maybe a battle of the bands with student performers, or what efforts have you made just to reach that student population that's just on the other side of the Capitol?  >> Well, some of it's been based around marketing. I don't know. It's been a little bit tricky. I guess one thing is when the licenses became available to have 18-plus shows, we got one right away. I think just being able to offer entertainment to a population that would be more student-aged and that isn't necessarily available as much near campus or on campus is one thing that we've done. And so we've certainly tried to market those shows towards campus as well. We have had quite a few student groups that have done special events there. And a lot that have done like benefits for groups that are related to student activities. I can't think of any specific ones right this second. So I'm really trying to keep my scheduling open to doing things that are going to be attractive. 

Beyond that, I don't know. It's been kind of a tricky thing for us, and it's honestly something that a lot of venue owners have talked about over the last few years is that it seems to be increasingly hard to get students to come out to shows. And all of us are a little bit at a loss as to why that is. Certainly for me I know location doesn't help because we're just a little bit further away than a lot of people want to trek. But beyond that, I don't know. It's kind of a conundrum that we're all trying to work on right now and see how we can access students more. >> We have a question over here. >> Hi Cathy, my name is Natalie. My question for you is I was kind of wondering what advice you have for young people fresh out of college as far as being credible in their entrepreneurial adventures, things like that, how do they kind of gain creditability in that? >> Well, I think a lot of it, for me at least, really came down to the fact that I was very driven to do it. I think that I certainly put a lot of effort towards all the research I was doing to learn everything that I could so that when I did have conversations with people at the city or with loan officers at the bank that I came across as really knowledgeable and just really serious that I wanted to move forward with my plans. 

I think the more that you can talk to people that are involved in the business that you're wanting to go into, gain a little bit of that insider knowledge, it's going to give you maybe a little bit of an edge up. I guess also internships, if you have an opportunity to work in a place, mine was a bartending job so it maybe wasn't quite as viable as it would have been if I could have been interning, helping with the booking or helping with some of the business management when I worked there before, but I think that that's something that would be really helpful as well. >> We have a question way back here, Cathy. >> Hi, I'm Mia. Have you had any genres or particular music groups that have come in and have just been completely disastrous that you have to avoid now and what went wrong? >> No, I wouldn't say that we have. It's definitely a little bit more selective than that, certain bands maybe that just don't work. I can't think of anything that's just been a complete disaster. We've certainly had some shows that have been not good, but for the most part we can learn those lessons with minimal pain. >> Well, I think I'm going to go ahead and ask the final question, Cathy, because you had mentioned it was 20 years ago when you were graduating and you were kind of venturing out as this UW grad in cultural anthropology and you're going to open up a night club, 20 years ago did you envision being where you are today? How similar or different does it look to the vision that you had then? >> Honestly, I guess I'm more successful than I thought I would be at the time. It would have been probably impossible at that point for me to picture having to go through the transition after the fire. 

So I think what I saw as my success or as my possible life success would be running O'Cayz really well and having it just continue on and on. I think when I first started there that seemed like a huge enough business venture for me to take on that it just wouldn't have occurred to me that I would then go on to have like a venue three times as big that did so many more different things. So in some ways the fire was probably a blessing in disguise because it pushed me to make that effort. Yeah. >> That's a marvelous way to end, and we just never know what's ahead of us and how we're going to really turn it into something that is as successful as you've demonstrated you are today. I know the students join me in thanking you so much for spending time with us today. Cathy Dethmers of High Noon Saloon. >> Thanks for having me. [APPLAUSE]