Wisconsin Public Television University Place  Scott Perez Lost Ladybug Project Part 2  January 27, 2011 UP548    cc >> Scott Perez: I heard that about the Coopers Hawk... Was that Congress or the Library of Congress? >> Library of Congress. >> If it was in Congress, it'd be more intelligence than that's been there for years. (laughter) Anyway, I had a good question asked over the break. How do we identify these critters? Again, the disclaimer. I'm not an entomologist, particularly since there's at least one real entomologist in the room. The Asian Ladybugs, as you know, come in all different kinds of shapes, colors, spot patterns, and everything else. We have the two-spotted ladybug, one of our rarer native ladybugs, which may or may not have two spots. We have the seven-spotted, which may have the two ghost spots, and the nine-spotted. We have the nine-spotted, who we don't know because when it just comes out, it doesn't have any spots. 

So they are difficult to identify. That's why we send them to the site and have Rebecca do it. But if you're really into that, and you're trying to identify, and there's a place on the site when you put your picture in, you can take your best guess as to which one it is. I'll tell you if you're right or wrong. If you really want to learn to identify, I'll show you a chart we do have available. What you want to do is look up around the thorax on the back of the head, what would be the head, and stuff, and look at the patterns and the colors up there. The whites, the blacks, the yellows. That's a more reliable guide to what type of ladybug you're looking at than just counting spots. So, the book that's going around, the Acorn book, you can look, some of the pictures in there are really good. You can look and you can really clearly see the patterns on the thorax. 

Some of them look just like the University of Michigan's M, so please don't kill the ladybugs because of that, it's not their fault. (laughter) Yeah, stand them upside down, then you've got a W, good. (laughter) Anyway, that's the best I can answer that, because still, I cannot, even after doing this for a long time, I cannot identify all the ladybugs. I rely heavily on Rebecca.  As a matter of fact, maybe Rebecca should get a raise. >> I would just mention that the bookstore has ordered four of the books that Scott recommended. But as of yesterday, they hadn't come in. So I'll let you know. >> All right, so, while we're on that subject, let's take a look at some of our lesson plans.  Okay, you can read this when you go to the Website. 

It's just kind of an informational toolkit. We've done a lot of work with 4-H, so a lot of this has been geared toward 4-H. It can all be adapted. I have some copies up here, that I'm actually going to leave here at the arboretum for folks. We have ladybug books in Spanish. Anybody working with farm worker communities, or Hispanic communities. This one is really multicultural. This is the Iroquois Thanksgiving address that I referred to earlier. It's a brief version of it, written in Spanish. So we have a tri-cultural thing going on here. 

Young women. Getting young women interested in science has been one of our goals. Here's a book for children, it's called "Girls Who Looked Under Rocks." It's about the lives of six pioneering naturalists. It's really a nice book. And if any of you do work with under-served communities, this is a really good book. It's called "Black and Brown Faces in America's Wild Places." So, we could go into it, and part of my dissertation work is on cultural values in the environment, and why are these people in different communities not well represented in the sciences, and stuff. One thing is a lot of people think that science is just something you do in a lab wearing a white jacket with a microscope and all of that stuff. What I try to tell people is, no, science is something we do every day. Everything we do is science. Walking around is physics. 

I mean, we constantly are evaluating. We're looking at data. We're processing it, and we make decisions based on that. Everything we do is a scientific process. When you get that across to kids, suddenly it becomes a little more relevant to them, and they're not as intimidated by it.  So, we have a coloring book for kids, if you have young kids. All of this stuff is accessible.  You can download this and print it off.  It's all real accessible. It was written by our educators and our PIs. 

If anybody sees anything as I'm whipping through these real quickly that you really want to look at or ask a question about, just stop me. Yeah? (inaudible)  The books can be bought. Which ones did you order for here? >> I'm not sure. We have "Black and Brown Faces" because he was a presenter here some years ago, so we've had that book for a long time. The two Spanish ones, I don't think we have. I'll have to check in the bookstore to see what are the four books that we ordered. >> I know they can all be found online. If you have difficulty finding them, like they're sold out or whatever, contact Leslie, our educator. She's pretty amazing at the things she can find. >> Is there a list of all these books on this Website? >> I don't think they're on the Website. 

We do have one here. I sent one to Molly, so we have a complete list of what's here.  We have the song, which you all have heard. We have a story. This is, again, to read to the children. This project started out really, really to get kids involved, along with gathering our science, but to get kids involved with science, to get kids involved in the academic world. What we're finding is yes, the kids are involved, and we're really getting them involved. But we're really getting their parents involved. We're getting parents out there that are driving their kids crazy. So you know, we have to start changing a little bit. 

We have to start working on the Website to get more age appropriate type information out there. What seems to be with ladybugs, you have pure academic stuff, you have some entertaining stuff like John Acorn's, and then you have the children's stuff. For someone who's a naturalist, or an ecologist, who wants a general good background but doesn't want to have to get into the jargon and other stuff, there's really nothing there yet.  All right, a game for kids. I must have had a deprived childhood. We didn't have this when I was a kid. But anyway, we have the games. We have a whole bunch of games. We also have, and you can buy these sets of all the different life stages of the ladybugs. They're fairly large and kids can use them, and get out there, because if a child sees a ladybug larva, they don't necessarily know that's a ladybug, unless you point it out to them. 

>> Do you have pictures of the larva on the Website? >> I should. (laughter) Let's see if we can get the pictures here in just a few moments.  Anybody want words for ladybugs in 30 languages? (laughter)  There you go.  When it comes to the native languages, the indigenous languages, it's kind of fascinating, because there are all kinds of names for ladybugs. The names they had actually remain for the different spot patterns and things. And we don't have any names for, like the Mohawk word, look at that. That's what one elder told us. Two other elders got in a big argument with him. They really disagreed that that's what it was. But I think Leslie could spell this one. 

(laughter)  There you go. (indistinct) Anyway, this is a pretty good diagram for kids to get into start looking for the different aspects of it. Make sure when you send you pictures in, they ladybugs are right-side up. (laughter) I sent a group in and three of them were upside down, and she called me on it. She said she was good, but not that good. (laughter) How to make an origami ladybug.  Anyway, these are some of the things we have on the education page there. It's a long, long page. Does anybody have any other questions while I'm getting back to a different page? Yes? >> I want to know, on the Website, I do a lot of work with kids in general on insect studies, and work with the sheets. But for ladybugs, you said that particular plants, do you have any information about what some of our native plants are their favorites, or on what we would be most likely to find ladybugs? >> That's a good question. 

Let's see if we have it on the Website. We were kind of developing that, because like I said, we're not sure what that is. And we were developing that just by what we've been finding in the field. I'm not sure if it's on the Website or not. In the early part of the year, milkweed is a good place to look, because there's lots of aphids on the milkweed. Sunflowers, when you're out in the prairie, the sunflowers are another excellent place to look. And of course, crops, any of your garden crops and things like that.  These are all .pdf files that you can download and print.  This is really for your basic, the kinds to look for and most common. This is probably a really good sheet. 

Yes? >> Who decided to go with the term ladybugs? I understand the reason, I think. >> It's on here. >> Oh, okay. Great, okay.  >> All right, so we have--  Like the Checkerspot one. I'm sure you're familiar here with the St. Lawrence Seaway and all the issues that come with exotic species from the seaway. This is one of them that came in from the St. Lawrence, along with who knows what all else. But you normally wouldn't consider that to be a ladybug, probably, if you saw a yellow and black beetle that didn't even have spots. But anyway, the Parenthesis ladybug, you'll see a lot of those around.  The Two-spot. 

Again, if you look through that book that's going around, you'll see all different kinds of patterns and colors for the Two-spot.  We have the brochure, which is going around. Bookmarks. These are really popular for kids.  Just print them off. Print the whole sheet and cut them in strips. Kids really like these, and the stickers. I think a sticker of anything is popular with a kid.  And for another one for kids for the winter, inside, draw your own ladybug. Print it out. 

They have to put their own colors, or their own patterns on the front of them. Anyway, as you can see, there's a lot of stuff available here. Here are the directions for the sweep net. You can buy sweep nets relatively cheap, but if you've got a large group of kids, and you've got a rainy day when you don't want to take them out, this is a pretty easy little project. Again, you can just pull this down.  Just download it, print it and put them to work. Of course, everybody has to have something official. You always have to have some sort of award, so you have your Spotter's Certificate, suitable for framing. (light laughter)  We're back to the ladybug song.  Okay, now for people who are more interested in the data. 

And this is the part we've really been focusing on. We're doing some real experimentation right now, so feed back is really important. Any of you that are really interested in data and crunching data, we can use feedback on this site. What's useful to you and what's not. Or, is it in a format that you can clearly understand, or is it in a format that you have no idea what this is. Granted, some of it is purely for academic purposes, but we're trying to get away from that. We're trying to make every single thing on there accessible to everyone, even if it has to be in several different formats. So feedback on this is important. So make sure, if you're interested in this stuff at all, please don't be shy about commenting to the site about hey, I looked at this, I really enjoyed it, whatever, or I'm not clear on this, or you could do this to make it easier to understand. So we have this broken down in several different ways. 

We do have this map here that's pretty much useless. We do have, you can see, we do have spotters through north and central America. Even over in Hawaii, we do have people looking for ladybugs.  Okay, if you just wanted to see--  If you wanted to, say, find out who's found ladybugs here in Dane County, or what kinds have they found, or whatever, this gives you access to that. We're not going to spend a whole bunch of time on that. But say if you're going on vacation or going to Alabama, well you want to take a look there. This gives you a way to do that.  Just for the heck of it, let's select by state, go to Wisconsin.  Why couldn't you have state that started with an "A". (laughter)  The funny thing is, when you get to the bottom of this list, it has some other ones that don't belong there, either. 

 Well, you know, you might want to take a trip. It's a nice time to go to Wyoming. And there you go. You can just scroll down. You've got your city, your spotter names. So if for some reason, you're going to Bayfield, and you really wanted to get into this, you could probably contact this spotter and say hey, I'm coming up there, I really want to look at ladybugs, would you be interested in showing me where you found them. I've found that the people are really good about sharing that information and letting you come and join their searches. It's been kind of fun driving around the country and just meeting with different folks who have turned in pictures, and get to visit with them and find out why they're into this, and what they've found out so far. Anyway, that's the way you can work this site.  You want to keep scrolling on Wisconsin, sure. 

(inaudible)  There's the nine-spot in Buffalo County. The spotter has several hundred acres of old farmland that she's restoring to native prairie habitat. That's the Lac Courte Oreilles Ojibwe School that I've got set up there. They've been out searching for a couple years now. (inaudible) Up in Hayward. (inaudible)  That was me. It found me. (inaudible) There we go. We've got some in Madison, here. Someone you may know, Rachel, with the school district. 

She's had her students involved.  That one under my name was found right out here, right out front.  >> So we can blitz this, this summer. >> Yeah, I would think you could cover it pretty well this summer. And any of you over at the Aldo Leopold Center, you could cover that prairie over there. There's the other nine-spot that was found. It's actually on the same property as the first one, but found by a different person.  This woman found it and added it to her collection. That's just the way it goes, sometimes.  Look at that, a little difference in size there. 

Some of the spots are fairly large. That's kind of really an exaggeration. >> Do they encourage catch and release? >> Yes. That depends on how you feel about the non-native ones. (laughter) I catch and release everything, but I've had people tell me they take their pictures of the non-native ones and then suck them up in a vacuum cleaner, or do whatever, and make them disappear. I don't have the same respect for doing river surveys. When I find round gobies, I don't catch and release them.  Let's see if there's any more from Wisconsin. Nope. That's what's in from Wisconsin so far. 

I'm sure you guys can triple that by next year.  >> Can you search that by county rather than by city? >> Yeah, I think there was a tab for county, or by person. I'll go back to that.  This is supposed to be set up so you could search by just about any category, including county, group name, genus, species, if you just wanted to see where nine-spots were. >> Can you define though, within Wisconsin, what county? >> Yeah. (inaudible) Let's go back to the summary page or the data, back to that other page. >> When you're on data, can you get us a picture of the life cycle, so we can see what a larva looks like? >> Yeah, I'm sure we've got it here somewhere, but I'm not finding it. We'll get there. I hope.  So if someone wants to do some quantitative work. 

Here's where it gets tricky. If you really wanted to do quantitative work, is this a valid sample to go from? Well, because-- We've got a lot of people looking in New York. We've got a lot of people looking in a few places. But we've got very few people looking in other places. So, can it really tell you anything about the distribution yet? That's why it's important we get the word spread and get more people looking.  Pie charts. Here's one we really want some feedback on.  We've run this through several of us, but we haven't got much feedback from the public yet. All right, say you want a pie chart, you want to know what we found so far. Let's say the US, all states. 

For species, let's just say you want to see natives. Then habitats, let's go with meadow grass, which would be what your prairie would be considered here. I don't know why you'd make a pie chart from "I don't know."  But anyway, let's create the chart and see what happens.  It'll probably come back and tell me I didn't-- There we go.  And there you go. The graphics, I know could use some work. Those lines, the way they're kind of fuzzy, makes it tough, particularly when you get small percentages. From that, you can now look and say, okay, here's what we've got from these different spaces. The "other" just means there were so few of them, you couldn't really delineate them on a pie chart of this size. Okay, Colorado. 

Obviously, we've got a lot of people looking in Colorado. I see Wisconsin is not even on this map. Can we fix that next year? And get you out of the other category. >> Is that all species? >> That's all native species. But you can break it down further. Anyway, this is one we really want feedback on. You know, if you have any ideas on how to make these charts more usable, please let us know. And I still have to find that-- I still have to find our pictures. >> There must be a query box someplace that you can ask a question.  Let's go back to the home page. 

 They've played with this. They're constantly working on this. Every time I open it, I find something new. >> Tell them you need a little box where you can type in something. >> A search for the site. >> So you don't have to go through everything. >> Yeah, that would be useful. >> It's so common. I don't know why you don't have one.  >> Does your links page have resources, as far as any university websites? >> Yeah, there are a lot of those kinds of things on the links. 

>> It looks like the photo gallery is on the kids' page, which was under construction.  >> Here's just some different media sources.  If anybody has any questions, just holler them out while I'm trying-- Yeah? >> A group of young people made their nets and then went into a prairie section to sweep, how likely are they to find more than one kind of ladybug? >> They're pretty likely to find more than one kind. >> Okay, so you would find different kinds. >> Yeah, you should more than one kind around here, in this prairie. But again, that's something that at least I don't know, and I know working with Leslie a lot, she's not clear on, because we don't know when every species is most active or most available what time of the year in what habitat. We're not sure on that. We don't have enough information on that, so you know, you could go out and find only one kind. But I've only had that happen maybe once or twice out of all the searches I've been on. I usually find several different kinds. 

>> Can you point out the ghost spots? >> Ghost spots. (inaudible) >> The white ones? >> No. (inaudible) (laughter) >> Look up above this spot, follow the curve of the wing around and look kind of in the middle. See that? I don't use technology. There's your ghost spots. (inaudible) >> They're gray? >> They're gray. >> Okay.  >> Could you do just a review, sort of a general review for us of the life cycle? I think many ladybugs over-winter as adults. Can you just kind of do a general review of life cycles? >> I can, but I'm not comfortable doing it, because I don't know enough about all the different species. I'm not that comfortable. 

Yeah, adults do over-winter. Adults will over-winter. Besides the ones that come in your house and hang out in the heat, there are, like I said earlier, if we were to go out here and dig around under some of these evergreens down under the duff, there's a good chance we'll find some. You know, get out in the base of trees, under crops, under firewood piles, you'll find them down at the bottom. If you have some firewood that you hardly ever get to, look down in there. Non-natives like stuff like that, too. I've seen firewood brought into the house, and suddenly the house is alive with ladybugs who have come out of the firewood. >> What other countries are doing similar studies? >> I believe they were doing one in Australia, but I don't think anything to this extent. Nothing that I know of. But again, that's not my area. 

>> What about Canada and Mexico? >> Canada and Mexico are all part of this. >> But not Central and South America? >> Right, we're focused mostly on North America. We consider Mexico and the islands Central America. I mean, we were lucky to get an NSF grant. Without the NSF, this project probably would not have happened. It had the important thing. It had the things the NSF was looking for. Okay, you have a valid ecological question here. You know, this is going on. Why is it going on? You had getting citizen involvement in science going on, and focusing also on under-represented communities. 

So we had three of the important things that NSF is looking for when we wrote for this project. (inaudible) >> I'm wondering if the reason it's hard to find a larva is that the adults are infinitely easier to identify. And the purpose of this is to help find these adults. In the book you're passing around now, the Acorn book, it has pictures of the larvae, which kind of look like little hela monsters. They're black on the surface. It shows pictures of the eggs also, but they're a lot harder to identify the species, and I suspect that's why they don't emphasize it very much on the website. >> Yeah, probably. Kids don't-- Ladybugs are kind of cute and cuddly. And the larvae, kind of gnarly looking. (inaudible) They could be kind of scary. 

I'm hoping I'll find a picture here on this site. (inaudible) >> There's one on the Arboretum site. >> Are the native species mostly habitat specific? >> Well, again that's something we don't know. John Losey, one of the PIs, because of where they were finding the first of the nine-spots, he came to the conclusion they were, well okay, they were in arid prairie habitats. Then we started finding them in places that were not that way. That's part of the mapping on here. You can go to the map and you can look at the different locations things were found. Then you can kind of pick them out. Nine-spots were so common, I mean, if it's common enough for kids to want them to be made a state insect, it really couldn't have been too specific. It must have been pretty broad ranging. 

But another thing we'd like to do-- Any history buffs in here? People who like to get into archives and like to dig through old journals and things? We'd really like to get into doing a literature search, not the academic literature, but a gray literature search, getting into the journals from the old naturalists, the old settlers, pioneers, anything that might mention, you know, ladybugs. Say, somebody was a farmer and they settled here in 1850, or something. Did they mention in their journals, oh, I've got ladybugs in my garden to help eat aphids. You know, if we can get some of that kind of stuff back, we can go back and we can get a better idea of distribution patterns and change over time. But there's just so many opportunities and so many options here. I no longer work for the project. My part of the funding is over. But I stick with it, just because it's so much fun. It's a lot of fun to do, and there are so many opportunities, so many questions. When we were talking earlier, in science we don't always find answers, but we come up with some really good questions. 

So, you know, there's half the battle there. Yes, ma'am? >> The name ladybug, where did that come from? >> It's written on the back. >> Oh, is it?  >> For those of you who didn't pick up a folder--  >> But then, how long ago? They're talking about-- >> Well, this looks like it was quite a long time ago. For those of you who didn't pick it up, some people believe ladybugs were given their name in Europe after the Red Rose of Virgin Mary, Our Lady, or because farmers believed they were sent by her to deliver them from the ravages of pests. That kind of infers it was quite a while back. I don't honestly know. In other countries, England calls them Ladybeetles. Like butterflies, people named butterflies "butterflies" when they were originally called flutterbys, which makes more sense if you think about it. They flutter by you. Butterfly? Where'd that come from? Anyway, anybody have any questions? >> Will birds eat them? >> Birds will eat them. 

I don't know about the non-native ones, since they smell so bad. They may taste bad. >> Maybe once. (laughter) >> Then would you just want to bring birds into your house to get rid of them? (inaudible) No, just the Asian ones seem to be the only ones that bite. Yes? >> Can we use the non-native ones as a dye? >> As a dye? It would be a really smelly process. (laughter) (inaudible) Yeah, so far as I can tell. >> About how many genera are there? >> I have no clue. I really know that answer. (laughter) >> If you see one in your house in the late fall, you can't put them outside anymore because it's getting cold. Can you help them over-winter? >> You can put them back outside. 

You can put them back outside. If you've got a wood pile, stick them in there, or under a flat rock. If you've got flat rocks laying out there-- Yeah, if they're non-natives, you may not want to help them over-winter, but you might. No, they can survive outside. Chances are, if they're in your house, they're a non-native anyway. >> Are the non-natives as effective, as far as eating aphids off crops, like soybeans and things? >> For this, I'm going to go to the crop expert, who happens to be here. >> The question was what? >> Are the non-natives as effective eating the aphids and things on crops like soybeans as the native ones? >> The non-native came from Asia, and over there, the soybean aphid is native to Asia. And there, it's a key predator. So yes, it's highly effective. But the problem-- Quite often, the aphid populations are outstripping the harmonia. 

When they finally catch up, it may be before the farmer is willing to put up with that amount of damage. So, they'll get sprayed, or something like that. Yeah, they're as effective. They can be important. I'm thinking, why were not seeing quite as many harmonia right now, the last year or two, as he said up here, is because the soybean aphid populations have been down. Time will tell whether it comes back or not. So that might be why. Yes, to answer your question, they're quite effective, just sometimes it's is it effective enough. The best thing to do is getting the farmers to realize what is an economic level. We have established those numbers. 

They have crop scouts. They check themselves. And if it's not at an economic level, it's not going to hurt their yield, let the population be there. That keeps not only the lady beetles, you have parasitic wasps and other predators that are out there. That's a key feature. I was wondering, are the people at Cornell-- (several people talking) Oh, I'm sorry. >> I forgot about a mic.  The question was, whether the introduced harmonia are as effective as knocking down aphid population in farmers crops as the native species. The answer is yes, because harmonia, the introduced lady beetle, and the soybean aphids are native to Asia. The soybean aphid somehow showed up in the states, we found it in 2001. 

How it got here is conjecture, but its primary host is buckthorn. If you realize how many species of buckthorn we've got in the United States from Asia and places like that, which might be how the aphid got here. In Asia, the aphid is the lady beetle's primary prey. So it's one of the few cases I know of in history of insects where the pest insect got here after the "beneficial" insect was here. Scott mentioned earlier that the harmonia was brought here by the folks, who wanted a better way of controlling insects. Is that your question? I was wondering if your folks at Cornell are contacting museums. Like here in Wisconsin, there is a museum in Russell Labs, and they're vastly collected. They could probably check and see what species of lady beetles are here. I know my state, Nebraska, they were collecting insects in the 1880s. It's wonderful just for historical references. 

>> We've talked about that, but it has not been done so far. I think that's actually written into the follow-up grant, which they just proposed, to get some people to start doing that kind of thing, go back to the journals, go to the museum, go to different places. New York State's Natural History Museum has boxes and boxes of stuff buried in a room that, you know, Adirondack Park is another place where I know there's just thousands of records that no one's looked at in years, you know, about the natural life of the area. So yeah, we'll see if we get another grant. Or we'll see if they get another grant. Any other questions? (inaudible) I would imagine-- Someone just suggested we take ladybugs and make dye out of them. Maybe we could do that with the non-natives. It'd be a smelly process, but I'm not sure. Once again, I'm not an entomologist. I can't tell you how closely related they would be. 

It would make sense, since their names are so close. >> I think the -- beetle feeds directly on the cactus pads, sucking juices, rather than eating aphids, so I don't think it's a predatory beetle. I think the ladybug is, so I don't think it's related. >> I don't know. >> Does anyone know its Latin name? >> One thing that's important that we really would like is, if you go out, say spring comes and you go out with the kids, you do your search, you don't find any ladybugs. Well, with kids, I understand, you want to take them some place that they're going to go find ladybugs, so you'll try a different place next time, or a different place. Come back to that first place. Keep coming back to the place you didn't find any. Because where you may not find any in May or June, you may find a whole bunch of them in July and August, and no more in September. Those are patterns we need to look at, too. 

That's part of the process. Here's some links. There are other citizen scientist projects on here. Like I said, the list of books is here. Fun places to go. Photos. Let's see if we have a picture of, just so we can find one before I shut up, a picture of a larva.  I could do that, I guess.  Okay. (laughter)  Okay, we're going to have to--  (indistinct talking)  (laughter)  There we go! We've got pictures!  You can see why the kids might not be as anxious to pick that one up. 

 So does anybody have any final questions? Yes? >> I'm looking at --, and I'm looking under multi-colored Asian lady beetles. It says this beetle has a huge appetite and has adapted in North America to eat much of the same foods that the native ladybugs eat. Then it says it even eats ladybug larva, including its own. So, what about the native ladybug? Does it eat larva, too? >> They are also cannibalistic. >> Okay. >> At least the ones I'm familiar with. Out of 500+ species, there's probably some that aren't. Any other questions? Well, thanks for your time. Oh, we do have a question. >> I was just wondering, who in the Ladybug Project would be a good mentor for kids, to help them develop scientific questions and choose, you know, go through, basically help them going through the scientific process? >> Leslie Allee and Rebecca Smyth. 

Leslie is our number one educator. She's also one of the PIs on the project. They are definitely the people that you want, if you want to get into the real science of it and really get kids involved in that part of it. Leslie is the person to go to. >> But come to our program, and we'll try to get that into our program. >> That's another part of this. We had a couple hours this morning, but we're going to be running the program this spring. We're going to be in touch with the folks at Cornell. So, you can get a lot more information this spring. I want you to have hands-on. 

It's a lot different than me just standing here talking about it. I mean, had it been nice out, we would've been outside this whole time. I would've skipped the whole website thing, except for about ten minutes, and we would've been outside sweeping and looking for ladybugs. But since it took everybody about an hour to drive in here, I figured you probably didn't want to go back out and walk around. But it's a great project for getting kids outside, even when you don't find anything. Any other questions? Thanks for your time, folks. I'll be around. (applause)