cc  >> Mike Jacobs is from  UW Baraboo Sauk County.  He's an associate professor  there.  He's going to speak about  the Ku Klux Klan in Wisconsin  in the 1920s and 1930s.  Please give him a warm welcome  with a round of applause.  (applause)  >> Mike Jacobs: Thank you  for coming.  It seems to be that what's  apparently an overwhelming  interest here today, that the  idea that, the concern of race  in America has not ended with  the Obama presidency, which you  know, is of course a great  concern of ours.  But maybe as a surprise to you,  this discussion about the Klan  in Wisconsin isn't going to be a  great deal about race.  I know a number of you probably  have an interest about the Klan  currently in Wisconsin.  Considering today's timeframe,  I'm not going to have the chance  to talk about that.  But I can tell you that the best  place to get information about  that is the Seven Poverty Law  Center's Web site. 

 They'll tell you all the places  where there is noteworthy Klan  or white supremacist activity.  But today, my focus is on the  Klan in Wisconsin.  If you don't mind, I'd like to  start, actually, with a little  bit of music.  And if you can, be quiet.  I'm going to play "Name that  Tune," and see if anybody can  call out the song that I'm going  to play.  As soon as you know, flail or  whatever you need to do.  I think we have good enough  volume here.  § §  Hands up, yes.  What's the song?  "The Old Rugged Cross."  The old traditional hymn.  Well, wait a minute, maybe  we better listen to it. 

 § §  I don't know if you heard that,  "Throughout the USA,  the fiery cross we display..."  They changed the lyrics for  their own purposes.  Let me play one other one  that I suspect you'll know.  And we could do this for a long  time.  § §  Nobody?  I thought somebody would get  "Onward Christian Soldiers."  Let me go back just a couple  seconds on that one  so you can hear it.  § §  And then listen  to the first words.  § §  That was,  "Onward valiant Klansmen."  (audience murmuring)  Yeah, it gives me the creeps.  All right, so I wanted to let  you know that they used a lot of  methods to attract people to,  and to sell themselves as  legitimate and as Christian.  Very briefly, back onto the  Klan, you may be familiar with  post Civil War phenomenon in the  south almost primarily, but not  exclusively.  This would be a costume that one  would wear.  The idea of white robes or bed  sheets, as some people say,  doesn't come till much later. 

 The idea that they had, well,  originally, was simply to play  practical jokes on each other.  And then, that didn't seem so  fun anymore, because they knew  each other's jokes.  So they tried to start dressing  as ghosts so they could frighten  newly freed slaves, who would be  more likely, at least they  thought, would be more likely to  fall for their pranks.  And then it turned into, as you  know, a terrorist organization  as an idea to frighten,  particularly, former slaves.  But not only former slaves, also  people called scalawags.  Scalawags were whites who  belonged to the republican party  in the south, or as you know,  Carpetbaggers, northerners who  moved south to take advantage of  opportunities after the war.  And it was at this time that the  Klan was most famously a violent  organization.  You see the depictions here of a  Klansman firing into a home of  African Americans.  You can see in the window, down  below.  The government finally took  action, the federal government,  with the Ku Klux Klan Acts of  1871. 

 What's amazing to me, when I  studied the history of the Klan,  is what happened over the next  40-some years, which is, we have  this cliché that the victors  write the history.  Well, this is one certain  notable exception.  In this case, most of the  history that was written, that  worked its way into American  history textbooks was written  by white southerners,  many of which, by the way, got  exemptions as teachers, and  didn't serve in the Civil War.  And the history that they told  us was that the really dangerous  people that we all had to look  out for as American were those  scalawags, carpetbaggers and now  the freed men.  And that the Klan were the good  guys.  They were saving the values of  America.  And they were saving a value  that was widely held by many  Americans, was white supremacy.  This really comes to the  forefront when you talk about  the movie, "Birth of a Nation,"  which is considered, I mean,  despite its you know, abhorrent  tones on race, it's considered  one of the greatest American  movies, by D.W. Griffith.  And this sold the Klan.  If you've ever seen it, and they  play "Flight of the Valkyries"  at the end, and the Klansmen  come riding in to save the  damsel in distress from apparent  rape and murder. 

 They come out as heroes.  There's reports of men firing  their guns at the screen,  excited.  And there were Klan  representatives outside the  theaters passing out membership  cards.  This was the way that they were  sold that the Klan was a good  thing, and the bad people were  on the other side.  All right, before I talk about  Wisconsin in particular, maybe  I'll address some of the  commonly held myths about the  Klan of the 1920s, which is my  area of specialty.  It was at this time that they  had their highest membership.  And arguably, their highest  level of acceptance in America,  and maybe influence, was during  the 1920s.  They were more popular in the  north than in the south.  As you can see here, a four-day  Klan celebration on Long Island.  To that end, they were also more  urban than rural. 

 That is, they were more people  who lived in cities that were  Klansmen than in rural areas.  And despite what Beth and I were  taught in fourth grade Indiana  history, Indiana was not the  strongest state for the Klan.  Probably Ohio had more members,  and Texas, the Klan was very  strong there as well.  And probably the most surprising  element about the Klan in the  1920s, when I talk to people,  one of the hardest things to  accept, is that the Klan was  more often on the receiving end  of violence rather than meting  it out.  Because most Americans were  intolerant of their intolerance.  And when the Klan showed up in  their area, many times they were  chased off.  Several times, here in  Wisconsin, in a number of places  throughout Wisconsin.  Another thing that's a popular  misconception is in this era,  they preferred to punish white  Protestants.  They expected African Americans.  They expected Catholics. 

 They expected Jews and  immigrants to mess up.  It was white Protestants who  were cheating on their wives, or  bootlegging, or doing something  else.  The Klan was out to get them  because they expected better,  because they had sold this idea  that these are the right kind of  people, and this is what we need  to have in America.  And when those people weren't  living up to the standards that  they had laid out, which they  usually didn't live up to  themselves, those were the  people that they oftentimes,  meted out justice, if you will.  They were more anti-Catholic  than they were anti-Black, or  anti-Jewish, or anti-anything  else.  Here's some Klan propaganda of  the era.  "Let's Go!"  which was the old slogan of  the American Expeditionary Force  of World War I.  They were trying this idea of  patriotism.  And it's patriotic to,  apparently, throw baseballs at  the Pope's head.  And here are Klansmen chasing  priests and nuns out of the  country. 

 With of course, the Constitution  on their side.  "Convent Cruelties," a story of  an ex-nun, Helen Jackson, author  and victim.  And you can see, if you're  interested in getting a lecture  from her, or any of the dozen or  more fake ex-nuns or priests who  toured around America for  profit.  Well, look at the context.  It was the Klan who was  sponsoring the talks.  Another thing is robes were  actually official garb and not  bed sheets.  It's a common misconception.  Here's an order form, for  example.  So you can give your  measurements.  I have a Klan robe as well that  I can pull out to show you, that  I have from the era. 

 I do not have the cap.  Those sell for a great deal on  eBay.  And I'm not willing to pay that  for demonstrations.  As you can see, it's old,  stained, and clearly,  manufactured not as a bed sheet.  You might also note here, that  one of the ways we authenticate  such things, is that this is  where the emblem was held.  See the buttons?  Someone else decided also to  sell that on eBay.  It went somewhere else.  I found that it wasn't made up  of just the lowest class  citizens, that we generally  think of.  They oftentimes prided  themselves that they had indeed  doctors, and lawyers, and  bankers.  Famously, bankers in Chicago, by  the way, an interesting story,  if I may go off on a sidelight. 

 There was a banker who, it was  discovered that he was a  Klansman, and then there was a  run on the bank.  It was in an area, I don't know  if you know Hyde Park, a high  African American area.  They withdrew their money.  And there went the bank.  And the bank directors asked  this man to please, you know,  please leave, because he was  wrecking their bank.  There was runs on 17 banks in  Chicago when there were  discoveries of Klansmen who were  employed there.  But one example is this man who  was a dentist, a successful  dentist, Hiram Wesley Evans.  Here he is on the cover of Time  Magazine.  He was the Imperial Wizard of  the Klan.  So they weren't simply the  people on the lowest level of  American society, which we  generally think of. 

 (inaudible)  >> For Klan activity, yes.  The Klan made the cover  of many magazines.  It sells.  It's why many people are here  today.  (laughter)  (inaudible)  >> Actually, this man made a  great effort to end vigilantism  among the Klan, because he knew  how that detracted from their  prestige in communities.  Of course, he was unsuccessful,  you know, because the very  nature of what the Klan does.  Also, it was a typical, albeit  extreme fraternal organization  of the 1920s.  Complete with headquarters, like  here's the Milwaukee Klan  headquarters.  You know what?  I'm sure I have this one  at home, but I'm going  to guess 1923-24.  (inaudible)  He made all the major  newspapers and magazines  frequently. 

 There's the Milwaukee  headquarters.  I don't know if anyone  is familiar with this building  on Kilbourn, 24th and Kilbourn.  But it is a magnificent  building.  (inaudible)  Yes, great stone work.  It's really something worth  getting off the highway for if  you're in Milwaukee to see.  It's now a private residence.  Well, it's replete with all the  tapestries and attractions that  fraternal organizations had,  headquarters.  Picnics, in Racine.  Klavaliers, specially officered  people in their fraternal  organization.  Women. 

 There's a women's auxiliary.  And as we know, there was a  women's auxiliary in Milwaukee.  And even for kids, the junior  Klan.  The Klan even had newspapers.  The newspaper that first ran in  Wisconsin was a monthly.  Then they moved to a weekly.  And they had pages dedicated for  the women in the Klan, and for  boys.  And here, for example,  activities for the juniors.  See, of course, the KKK.  But also look in the junior and  see the KKK, the cross, and  there's the Jr. 

 They always want to tie  themselves to a message of  Christianity.  And baseball clubs that would  play teams like the Masons, or  the Odd Fellows, or other  fraternal organizations that  were willing.  (inaudible)  That was not, no.  And bands.  You've heard some of the music  we played already.  Bands oftentimes accompanied the  large picnics, or the beginning  of their meetings.  Vocal groups as well.  I don't know if you've gotten  a good look at this, but you can  see a wide variety of  recruiting.  Young people in the bands.  And you've heard at least two  Klan records today. 

 There were dozens of artists who  made Klan music.  My favorite one, I have to  admit.  This one is actually  in Illinois, if I remember  correctly.  (inaudible)  In Appleton, I'm not sure.  I don't have any reason  to believe.  Usually, they did things,  family events.  Like that would be a family  event.  I can't see a bunch of men  getting together and saying  let's get a ferris wheel.  (inaudible)  Yes, I'll give you some  examples.  A Christmas card most of you  probably don't want to receive. 

 They did indeed stress family  entertainment.  You'll see the public  was invited to come to their  festival at Pleasant Valley  Park.  Again, tying themselves to  patriotism, they oftentimes had  their celebrations on American  holidays that are considered  patriotic.  Now, if you look at this flag,  and realize that this was owned  by the Klan, think of the  resources that had to go into  this.  We're not about an organization  that is, you know, dirt poor.  And as the Beloit Klan liked to  boast, events in Janesville,  they had the largest flag  in the nation.  Apparently, that's a testament  of their patriotism, I suppose.  I'm not sure.  One of my favorite book titles.  (laughter)  They stressed Christianity. 

 They stressed patriotism.  They stressed family.  And of course, there were  even Klan weddings.  This one was a double wedding.  Witness, witness--  and double wedding.  Another wedding.  And a funeral.  A number of Klansmen were buried  in their robes by request.  Well, if you take away  everything that you know about  the Klan, or you think you know  about the Klan, and you just saw  these images of things that are  involving patriotism, and  Christianity and family, I mean,  it wouldn't be unreasonable to  ask someone in the 1920s, after  being fed propaganda by the Klan  not being such a bad thing,  well, what's wrong with the  Klan?  What's so bad about it?  Well, the people who tended to  join were, I will tell you,  typical Americans.  But they tended to hold extreme  values. 

 You could say that, by today's  standards, they didn't embrace  diversity.  By today's standards.  But then they held values that  maybe some of you hold today,  90 years later.  One country, one flag,  one language.  I know people who think it's  their right to call someone  and have them speak English.  That's their right.  (inaudible)  Let me think about that one.  I'll have it by the end.  Oftentimes, the Klan would--  One of the reasons I'm having  trouble with this is,  oftentimes, the Klan would use  abbreviations for Latin phrases  that they used.  One of the reasons it's hard for  me to think of it is-- which is  interesting because they didn't  like the Pope, and well, you'd  think that they wouldn't know  Latin. 

 And they had trouble with it.  Oftentimes, their Latin is not  accurately translated Latin.  So it's one of the reasons I'm  struggling, at least telling you  I'm struggling to think about  what OSFK was.  Going back to what I'd said  about their extreme ideas.  They didn't believe that  Catholics should be allowed to  hold elective office.  They thought that immigration to  America should be halted, or at  least restricted to white  Anglo-Saxon Protestants only.  They thought that the King James  version of the Bible should be  returned and used in the public  schools.  They thought all children of  Jews and Catholics should attend  public schools, private schools  should be closed for them.  And Catholics, especially  priests and nuns, should not be  allowed to teach in public  schools.  And finally, they thought that  white Protestants should do  business with white Protestants  first. 

 The methods with which they  might achieve these goals, most  famously of course, is force.  They'd only try to use force in  places in which they could get  away with it.  Wisconsin was not such a place.  In the south, where they might  get complicity with law  enforcement, or where they might  get tacit approval, or law  enforcement might look the other  way.  That's where we see most of the  acts of violence perpetuated by  the Klan in the 1920s.  And the Klan, by the way, was  often quick to say that they  had nothing to do with this.  Or that it was these other  people who were actually in  bed sheets, not Klansmen.  Or that they condemned  such activity.  Other places, political  exclusion would be utilized.  Trying to outlaw, as I  mentioned, some people were not  allowed to hold public office. 

 That was an attempt made in  Oregon, an attempt made in  Indiana, and an attempt made in  one famous case here in  Wisconsin by the governor toward  one particular employee.  Social exclusion or extortion.  These are all methods that the  Klan would try to use to achieve  their goals.  Whether they would acknowledge  those or not, the history bears  out that that indeed happened.  All right, the Klan comes to  Wisconsin.  It starts out in a very  commercial nature.  Under the guise of  a fraternal organization.  When they first start to  recruit in Wisconsin, they do  not recruit as the Ku Klux Klan.  They come to Milwaukee and they  recruit as the Milwaukee  Businessman's Club.  I'd imagine you wouldn't have a  problem with joining such a  club, right?  The "Klegal," as they called the  recruiters, would pitch to you  the idea that you'd join and  you'll get to meet other  businessmen in Milwaukee who are  up and rising. 

 And you can sell your clothes to  them, for example.  And you can make mutual business  relationships.  And then later, when you realize  that there were only white  Anglo-Saxon Protestants in this  organization, you found out  that, indeed, this is why.  They were also known in  Milwaukee as the bowtie club.  Okay, only men who wore bowties.  And you'd say, oh, this might be  someone who is in the  organization.  And you might feel comfortable  approaching them.  Profits were made through  membership and through  merchandising, selling things  that they had.  Now, this is about the demise,  if I may skip ahead a little  bit.  There's a lot of reasons why the  Klan failed in Wisconsin. 

 And one of them had to do with a  profit.  A Klan was a provisional Klan  until it was recognized  officially by the Atlanta  organization.  The way the membership drive  worked, is usually a membership  cost $10.  And the Kleagle would keep  anywhere from $5-$7 depending on  how they negotiated that fee.  But once they became an official  Klan, that money dried up, and  it would go to the national.  So the Kleagles would just do  anything they could to prevent  being recognized as an official  Klan, all right.  So in Milwaukee, for example,  the number was 1,000.  Once they came close to 1,000,  they had it bumped to 5,000.  Once they reached near 5,000,  they had it bumped to 10,000.  That's when Milwaukee Klansmen  started saying why are all our  dues going elsewhere?  Why do we not have any benefit  from this?  And then we see, immediately in  Wisconsin, splintering Klans. 

 So they finally fired the  Grand Dragon in Wisconsin, who  by the way, several years later,  died while trying to operate  on himself.  I couldn't help but tell  that story.  (laughter)  All right, in branching out,  Milwaukee was the first place.  By the way, probably much to  your surprise, the city in  America with the most Klansmen  was Chicago.  And Kleagles found that ground  because of the recent influx of  African Americans during the  great migration.  And then some of them decided  maybe they could tap Milwaukee,  which was a large city not far  away.  That's how you'll see movement  first, in large cities, that's  convenient for these Kleagles,  if you will.  So after they come to Milwaukee,  Racine, as you know, another  major city just south.  And they carried enough weight  that here you can see the  Imperial Wizard, Hiram Wesley  Evans, who I showed you on Time  Magazine, came to the Racine  conclave and was speaking.  This is the Milwaukee contingent  that came to that conclave of  Klansmen. 

 The conclave was large enough  that they had First-Aid  headquarters.  You'll see here, Milwaukee  Provisional Klan Number One,  okay, so that's the first place  they came.  And then you can see here,  Racine, Provisional Klan Number  Two.  So one way that researchers have  been able to determine how the  Klan spread was seeing the  number that's been assigned to  the various Klan organizations.  And then Madison, being the next  largest city, would be a place  that they sought to recruit.  And successful.  There is an article in the  Wisconsin Magazine of History  from autumn of 1974 about the  Klan in Madison.  If you're interested in further  reading, here it is.  I'll do a little plug for the  magazine.  You can get back issues. 

 And that covers it, a pretty  good job, of 35 years ago, the  Klan here.  >> That card, to whom is that  aimed?  >> Jacobs: This, I think it was  bootleggers in the Italian area  of town, that they were defying  the law.  Most famously, here at least.  Again, I should say this.  Wisconsin did not have a very  large African American  population.  The greatest draw for African  Americans to come to the north  was for jobs.  And Milwaukee's low skill level  jobs had always been satisfied  by European immigrants.  So it was one place that there  was not a great deal of African  Americans.  And even then, they usually  followed railroad lines.  And there weren't direct  railroad lines from Milwaukee to  most southern, urban centers. 

 So, Milwaukee was excluded and  didn't have a vibrant African  American community, starting  then, at this time.  There's a book by Joe Trotter  called "Black Milwaukee," that  talks about this at length.  Here's the Madison officers.  I don't know if you can see the  portion with the headline up  above, 10,600 automobiles  checked in.  Well, when the Klan did their  numbers, they always assumed  that all automobiles sat four to  five people.  So they would say there was  45,000 people at this meeting.  Because Klansmen were efficient.  They never wasted gas.  This is from the Klan newspaper  in Wisconsin, which is available  at the State Historical Society.  And yes, even the university. 

 In fact, the university had two  rival Klans.  This is a map of Dane County.  I thought I would show you how  the Klan would spread, at least  in one direction, so you can get  an idea of how they spread.  So when the Kleagles had  exhausted their possibilities of  this urban center, then they  started going out to outlying  areas where they might recruit  some people as well.  I think proximity for  convenience was the first  factor.  Then population.  And then areas that appeared to  be potentially receptive.  This made rural areas, far from  Milwaukee and Madison, low  priorities.  So there'll be, as the Klan  would call it, Kluxed very late.  We'll see how familiar you are  with the area. 

 Here's Mazomanie.  Lodi is right up there, not on  this map.  But here, the Klan is purchasing  a home for a clubhouse in  Mazomanie.  And they burn a cross in Lodi.  Sauk City, as you know, is  immediately north of Dane.  They move into Sauk County.  They're in Baraboo, where I  teach.  Just the headline, at least  4,000 people came to watch  the parade.  And the fiery cross is  difficult, particularly in bad  weather, so they also had large,  electric-lit crosses, you see  here.  Particularly because fiery  crosses are hard to burn in the  winter in Wisconsin, when you  have indoor meetings. 

 No one wants to have outdoor  meetings in December, so they'll  have lighted crosses.  And this was, I don't know if  anyone is familiar with Baraboo.  This was the clubhouse that the  Klan owned.  They owned two different  clubhouses at two different  times.  That is in Baraboo, yeah.  >> What is that used for?  >> Jacobs: I'd rather not tell  you.  I won't tell names.  You can figure out exact  locations.  I don't want, you know, to  disparage the ownership now.  But it's reputable. 

 (laughter)  It's reputable.  Before they had a clubhouse,  they would have to rent space,  "Held in Farm House  Near Baraboo."  This is actually talking about  the conflict that happened in  Madison, by the way, when police  officers were trying to break up  an alcohol ring.  Then, 12 miles west of Baraboo  is Reedsburg.  That's where they went next.  (inaudible)  Well, at the time they attended  his funeral.  It's difficult to say who's a  Klansman, because in Wisconsin,  we have almost no membership  rolls, almost none.  But certainly the Klansmen  favored law and order,  particularly when it came to  prohibition laws.  From Baraboo, then Adams.  You should be familiar with  Adams.  You can see kind of a line that  they take, moving further away  from the epicenter of Madison. 

 More about Adams.  This is what they had always  claimed it would be, forever.  I told myself I would leave  about 15 minutes for questions.  I've already gone over that.  >> What's the Ku and the Klux  stand for?  >> Jacobs: When they first  developed this organization, it  was, I think, six former  Confederate soldiers.  And they were going to form  their own little secret society,  like I said, to play pranks.  Actually, somewhat innocent.  And Ku Klux comes from the Greek  word kuklos, but they didn't  think that sounded very  mysterious.  They didn't want anyone to know.  And kuklos means circle. 

 So this was a circle of friends.  They separated Ku and Klux.  And Klan meant family.  That's where they get their  name.  Yes?  >> Are there any active Klan  now?  >> Jacobs: Yes, oh, yes.  There's a few different--  Well, it seems to me that  there's the Klan, and then  there's the mind of the Klan.  And the mind of the Klan is much  more active.  And there are different  organizations that are very much  supporting the ideas of the  Klan, but don't call themselves  that, simply because of the  negative public opinion that's  generally associated with them.  There's one group that I knew  of, I don't know if it still  exists.  About a dozen years ago, they  were the European Heritage  Alliance. 

 When you read their propaganda,  you know what they really are  promoting.  Yes?  >> Was there any violence in  Wisconsin?  >> Jacobs: Yes, but again, the  violence that we had reported  here was against Klansmen, not  by Klansmen.  For example, just north of here  in Waunakee, there was a  Klansmen meeting where the  people of Waunakee were not  happy about it.  They came out and stormed it.  And reported at least 12 flat  tires of fleeing Klansmen,  driving over tacks and stakes  that were laid on the road.  And a fence was torn down so  that they could beat Klansmen's  cars with it as they tried to  escape.  Yes?  >> Where did those six Klansmen  start, in what city?  >> Jacobs: Polaski, Tennessee.  Yes?  >> Back around the '20s, I think  organizations like the Elks and  Moose were very popular.  Would the men or the families  who belonged to those also join  the Klans?  >> Jacobs: Very often.  Klansmen usually went to the  Masons first to try to recruit. 

 Because of those groups, the  Masons probably had the highest  percentage of high-level  business people.  So they're trying to use the  prestige of Masons, or people in  high-level business, like  bankers, lawyers, doctors, and  say, look, these people joined,  you should as well.  Yes?  >> I'm from Pittsburgh,  Pennsylvania.  My grandfather was involved in a  confrontation with the Klan in  Carnegie, Pennsylvania.  >> Jacobs: The famous one.  >> And the idea of the parades,  which you mentioned a couple    times here, what I had heard, a  family myth perhaps, was that  the Klan wanted to march by all  the Catholic churches in this  particular suburb of Pittsburgh,  as a form of desecrating and  putting the Catholics in their  place.  And I'm just wondering if some  of the parades--  You're saying violence  took place against the Klan  as opposed to the opposite way.  It seems like a provocative type  of thing to walk by a person's  church, or through a person's  neighborhood, what have you.  And you know, perhaps invite the  violence that ensued.  Was that part of their tactic to  gain wider acceptance?  Oh, poor us, we're getting  picked on, type of thing?  >> Jacobs: Sure. 

 In that particular case, it's  certainly the case.  There was a Klansman killed at  that parade.  And there were a number of  Klansmen who defected, who said  that the Imperial Wizard planned  that purposely for that to  happen.  He wanted violence for the  people to see, look, people are  attacking the Klan.  It's these foreigners.  It's these Catholics.  It's these African Americans.  We need to stand up for White  America.  Now about passing around  Catholic churches.  That happened a lot. 

 And maybe it was provocative.  But it backfired, because I'm  not sure if you are aware of  this or not, but part of the  family I married into is Irish.  And there's a long tradition of  Irish being involved in public  service, like the police and  fire.  Well, when Klan parades went by  Catholic churches, mysteriously,  the fire department would be  called out and run their trucks  through the parade, and the  parade would have to disband and  then come back together.  And that could happen four or  five times during one parade, if  they were going in  neighborhoods--  (inaudible)  Yes?  >> Would you characterize, kind  of the era from the Nathan  Bedford Forrest quotes,  Civil War, kind of, and how  it's evolved historically?  >> Jacobs: Sure.  I think numerically, the  greatest prominence is the era  that I'm studying right now.  But I wouldn't say it was their  greatest impact.  I think their greatest impact  ultimately was the post Civil  War Klan, where they essentially  were able to, through  intimidation, create a pseudo  form of slavery with share  cropping and denying African  Americans the right to vote, and  putting that in the legal  system.  But I'll tell you, and this is  where I have to get a little  academic.  Historians who study the Klan  will debate about how many eras  of the Klan there were, okay?  So for convenience sake, I will  simply say there was four. 

 There was the post Civil War  era.  There was the 1920s high point.  There's the 1960s anti-Civil  Rights Klan.  And then there is, you know,  what there is today, which is a  hundred or more different groups  claiming to be the true  successors of Nathan Bedford  Forrest.  >> I think I've seen pictures in  books of a Klan rally in  Madison, marching down State  Street and around the capitol.  How many people would've  attended that?  >> Jacobs: Well, that's another  question.  Attended or participated are two  different questions.  This is something that we've  always had a problem with,  because they're a secret  organization.  There's always discrepancies  about how many numbers are in  attendance, who's doing the  counting.  And if you look at, one of my  rules in my own research is when  I study a Klan event, if I  cannot get a non-Klan source to  also address it, I don't talk  about it. 

 Because if the Klan says that  they had 5,000 people at a  rally, unless I can get a  newspaper to say something  similar to that, or a newspaper  that will say 500.  Well, there's a big difference  between those two, and I'll make  sure I will note that.  So determining numbers is a very  difficult thing to do.  Yes?  >> I just want to mention that  my grandfather and my uncle were  shot by a member of the Ku Klux  Klan in Arena, Wisconsin.  They had a farm just up the road  from where I live right now.  Very prevalent up in that area.  >> Jacobs: Oh, yeah.  >> They had crosses burning on  their lawn.  >> Jacobs: In 1925, there was a  major scandal with the Klan, and  it really took a nosedive  nationally.  And this is one of the things  that makes the Klan in Wisconsin  unique, is that's when the Klan  really started to rise. 

 Because Kleagles had never gone  to rural areas like Arena.  And I have Klan material from  Arena, as well, and the northern  part of Wisconsin.  There were places that were  Kluxed very late.  One of the major riots was in  Marinette.  Well, you know where Marinette  is.  You can't get much further.  I've been in Marinette twice,  and both times I've mistakenly  driven to Michigan.  (laughter)  Really, it's true.  I've done it.  You go over the bridge and the  next thing you know, you're in  Michigan. 

 And that was actually, probably  to me, the most interesting  riot.  If I can share this with you.  It was in the summer of 1927.  There was, in Marinette, there  was four Catholic churches.  And Marinette's not a very large  place.  But there was an Irish Catholic  church, a Polish Catholic  church, a French Catholic church  and a German Catholic church.  By the way, across the river in  Menominee, same thing.  Now, from the evidence that I  have looked at, those people had  never done anything socially  together.  In fact, two of those churches  are literally across the street  from each other, and one is one  block down, and the Polish  church is on the other side of  town.  Well, the first evidence I have  ever found of these people doing  anything cooperative was when  they stormed the Klan parade,  burned the tent, beat up the  speaker, threw their musical  instruments in the river. 

 When you read the arrest list,  it reads like a United Nations  list.  Governor Blaine pardoned them  all, saying that they were  defending their rights, they  were defending their church.  Because the Klan speaker there  was speaking against a local  Catholic priest.  But the Klan, I should mention,  had some power in Wisconsin.  Governor Fred Zimmerman was a  Klansman.  There were a number of Klan  people who were ran for Senate  who were very competitive.  There's materials in the State  Historical Society of their  campaign literature.  1920s.  >> Did they run as Klansmen?  >> Jacobs: Oh, yeah.  In fact, if I remember off  the top of my head, Percy,  he was insisting that he was  the real Klansman candidate,  not the other guy. 

 (laughter)  Yes?  >> Are you writing a book?  >> Jacobs: I am.  >> You teach college.  Do young people today know  anything about the Klan before  they came to classes?  >> Jacobs: You know what,  actually, no they don't.  But I should tell you that I  don't teach the Klan in class,  for two reasons.  One is that I don't to shove  what I do down their throats.  The other is, I actually think  that we have overblown the  importance of the Klan.  And I think maybe we've gone too  far, talking about this group.  If I may give you this example,  every American history textbook,  just about, has this picture of  the Klansmen in 1925 marching  down Pennsylvania Avenue.  Talking about anywhere from  10,000-25,000 Klansmen marching,  showing their power.  What isn't discussed at all is  the reason why they marched is  that the Holy Name Society had  marched before them. 

 And they had 100,000 people.  And they met with President  Coolidge.  So the Klan said, we'll show  them, and the Klan publications  promised they would have  200,000.  Well, they had about 1/10 of  that, and Coolidge had nothing  to do with them.  So I ask this really honest  question.  What was more important in the  1920s?  The Klan or the Holy Name  Society?  You'll never see a mention of  the Holy Name Society in the  text books.  (inaudible)  What would you like to know?  (laughter)  >> Politically, what did they  do?  >> Jacobs: Politically, what  they did was, famously, the  Grand Dragon there said, "I'm  the law in Indiana," which I  also say is not true, because as  you may know, he went to jail  and spent a good portion of his  life, for manslaughter, of a  crime that he may or may not  have committed.  He says he was framed, and  there's a number of books that  have also purported that.  They tried to pass legislation  closing all parochial schools,  not allowing Catholics to teach  in school.  All of their efforts failed. 

 >> But they did have office.  >> Jacobs: Oh, yes, several.  People claimed congressmen.  Governor Ed Jackson, while he  might not have been a Klansman,  he had Klan support.  We have the documents he signed  where he said he would appoint  Klansmen to these positions if  elected.  But I should also mention, that  he also appointed the president  of Notre Dame University, a  Catholic priest, and the  Archbishop of Indianapolis to  positions as well.  Yes?  >> I wonder what the current,  and possibly at that time, also  the reputation of the Klan may  have been exaggerated so as to  provide cover for those who  shared some of their extreme  beliefs, but didn't want to go  as far as being public about it.  >> Jacobs: There's this  historian, Kenneth Jackson, who  talks about that in particular.  What I called the mind of the  Klan.  The number of people who  accepted the Klan values in the  1920s, and maybe even today, is  far greater than the number of  people who will actually sign up  membership. 

 In fact, when I do teach, I do  teach about the Klan in one  class.  I teach a class called  minorities in American History.  And what I do, is I start out  and I say, raise your hand  if you agree with this.  What the students don't know  is I'm reading from the Klan's  Web site.  And there's a number of things  that they raise their hands on.  And by the way, it's not  peculiar to their race,  gender or age.  And then when I tell them,  you know.  I can't say it because this  is going to be on television.  But you know, there's a lot  of "Oh, my! I didn't guess that  about you know, my own views."  (inaudible)  Well, you can go to the Klan's  Web site and check it out.  They raised their hands to, we  should speak one language. 

 They raised their hand to,  there shouldn't be immigrants.  One that surprised me that they  raised their hands to is that  there should be a national  hospital for AIDS patients, to  segregate them from the rest of  the population.  Yes?  >> The quote isn't the Klan, as  you said, the mind of the Klan,  in that from reconstruction time  up to the 1950s, they really got  their way with, in the south,  politically, with voting rights  laws and all of that stuff.  So, I don't want to take issue  that they're not important, but  you know, to me, they had their  way for 100 years, which is  pretty damn powerful in, you  know, American life.  >> Jacobs: Right.  That's not the Klan, though.  That's why I said the mind of  the Klan.  The Klan becomes stronger in the  south when that's disappearing.  When the federal government  starts enforcing the Brown v.  Board of Education ruling,  that's when the Klan starts  coming up, oh, my gosh, we can't  control the government any  longer, we need this vigilante  organization. 

 Just like the Klan in the post  Civil War era.  >> When I've gone onto the  Southern Poverty Law Center Web  site, on all these types of  groups, the Klan is only a small  fraction of those groups.  They come over a whole variety.  >> Jacobs: Christian Identity  is another one.  >> Can you elaborate on any  connections, or historical  linkages, other than simply some  of the mind of the Klan stuff,  how those might be linked?  >> Jacobs: Well, they're linked  by the ideology, and really  that's it.  Utah in particular has two  different Klans.  The Knights of the Ku Klux Klan  and the Utah Ku Klux Klan.  And they're two separate  organizations, yet almost all  their activities are done  together.  Some of the office holders in  one are office holders in the  other.  And their literature is  virtually identical. 

 That's just an example that  comes to mind.  >> Are they registered in any  way, in the sense that the Elks  are?  >> Jacobs: They're incorporated.  That's one of the ways.  >> They're recognized  by the government.  >> Well, incorporations are done  by state governments, so yes,  the Klan is incorporated in  Wisconsin.  That's one of the ways you can  trace the path of who's  involved, who signs the  incorporation papers.  When the clubhouse was bought in  Milwaukee, well, who signed the  mortgage?  This is a way that we've  discovered, you know, who these  people are.  And anti-Klan forces, they did  the same thing, and they would  publish their names in the  newspapers.  I mentioned about the commercial  thing.  That's a great example. 

 What happened in Milwaukee, was  that all of these businessmen  joined.  And then, in the Klan newspaper,  they then all advertised, so  other people who supported their  ideas could see, you know, this  guy is just like me.  Well, Klan opponents got a hold  of that and then published it.  So when you shop here, you're  supporting Klansmen.  Well, then, these guys couldn't  get out of the Klan fast enough.  Yes?  >> In 1993, I retired from  teaching in Stoughton.  I was a high school journalism  teacher.  And flyers showed up around  Stoughton, coming out of  Janesville, promoting the Klan,  and the guy on the horse with a  hood.  And one of my students picked up  a flyer, distributed, I think it  was on the windshield of his car  in the parking lot.  And these students--  >> Jacobs: Like this?  >> I think different than that. 

 I took four students down to  Janesville.  We met with these people.  Their headquarters was right  near the GM Plant.  And my students wrote a story,  one of my students wrote a very  long piece about it.  We spent three hours in their  living room, talking with them.  There were teenage kids there  who were doing mimeograph  machines.  And my student wrote a story  that won first in the state for  investigative reporting.  This was in the early '90s.  I forget, a guy named Peterson--  >> Jacobs: I don't use names in  my public talks.  I'm not interested in  embarrassing anyone or exposing  anyone. 

 >> There were about 15 people in  the house at that time.  It was a very interesting  experience for myself and my  students.  >> Jacobs: No doubt.  As you might imagine the nature  of my research, I've been  compelled to go to Klan rallies.  However, I can not talk to  Klansmen, because most Klan  rallies you go to are very  heavily guarded.  And when you come in, the police  are there, and then you have to  tell them, "I am pro-Klan  or anti-Klan."  And then you drive to  different sides because they  have them segregated.  I just can't say I'm pro-Klan,  so I never go to that side.  So I just listen to their  propaganda and then go home.  >> There's no option for  neutral?  >> Jacobs: No, and I can't say  I'm that either.  Yes?  >> In your studies of the '20s,  with the Klan in Wisconsin, did  you look at the regional issues,  what the Klan would attack in a  certain community?  I just found out recently that  my great-grandfather was a  Klansman. 

 And that's kind of a shock.  My great-grandfather was a  Klansman up in the Rio and  Columbia County area.  But their main focus was to stop  the Irish from becoming -  They were butchers.  And that was their main focus.  So it wasn't racial.  >> Well, it was racial.  What the Kleagles were told to  do was simply find out what  issue was of importance in your  area, and play on that issue.  And this is one of the reasons  that Wisconsin had such trouble  attracting Klansmen, is that the  most obvious issue of African  Americans, there wasn't a great  deal of population here.  And then the next issue was  Catholics.  And the problem with Wisconsin  is there's so many Catholics. 

 (laughter)  That they could never have an  upper hand.  Or, there was just going to be a  circumstance where you knew a  Catholic, and you knew they  weren't planning on taking over  America, like the Klan  propaganda said, or you knew  they weren't harboring the Pope  in the basement.  This is not uncommon things that  were popular mythology.  >> I found out that they would  builds thing at County Fairs,  "The History of White Slavery,"  they called it.  And you'd have to pay an  admission to get in there to  learn the horrors of white  slavery.  And I had no idea that anything  like that happened.  >> Was there opposition to the  Klan from people other than  Catholics or laboring classes,  for example did the mainline  Protestant people or other  people stand against this?  >> Jacobs: Certainly.  Very much so.  And obviously, Jewish Americans  and the Socialists in Wisconsin  were, you know, they'd condemn  them.  But many of the Socialists were  Klansmen. 

 So officially they condemned  them, but the reality is that  some people were members as  well.  And one thing, there was an  anti-Klan organization made up,  particularly of African  Americans, Jews, and Catholics.  And they constantly said in  their publications, "Protestant  Americans, this is your problem.  You need to deal with this."  They called them to that action.  >> Did any of the trade unions  ally or oppose?  >> Jacobs: Yes, very much so.  >> Which?  >> Jacobs: In researching,  if I can share this,  in researching the Klan, I  was living in Indiana and I was  going to drive to Indianapolis.  I was having breakfast  before I left.  I just said to my father,  off the cuff, and I had been  studying the Klan for about  ten years at this point.  And I said to my dad, you know,  "I'm going to go look at Indiana  Klan records.  Maybe I'll see some of our  neighbors."  I just kind of said that to  create conversation. 

 And my father just blurted out,  "You know your grandfather  was a Klansman."  (laughter)  No, I did not.  No, I did not.  I did not know.  The thing is, he had a lot  of time to tell me, knowing  I was studying the Klan.  I think he just feared me  sitting, you know, 150 miles  away, in a room by myself,  Clifford Jacobs?!  And so that's when he blurted  that out to me.  Then I got to find out the back  story.  No way am I excusing that, but  in southern Illinois, where he  lived at the time, in the mines,  there was two different groups.  There was the American born, and  there was a foreign born.  And they competed for jobs.  And there were two different  unions. 

 And there's a book  about that called  "Bloody Williamson County."  And my father said that my  grandfather joined so that he  could get the job.  I came to believe that, because  he met my grandmother, who was a  Catholic, and three weeks later,  married her.  So apparently, his prejudice  against Catholics didn't hold  out.  (laughter)  >> Thank you.  This was outstanding.  (applause)