cc  >> Jeanan Yasiri: Welcome to  Entrepreneurialism in Society.  This is a course that's offered  through the University of  Wisconsin School of Human  Ecology.  And as we begin today, I'd like  to extend thanks to our partners  in this course, the UW Office of  Corporate Relations, the UW  College of Engineering for their  technical support, and financial  support from the Ewing Marion  Kaufman Foundation, which is  committed to advancing academic  education and  entrepreneurialism.  Additionally, we thank our media  partners, Wisconsin Public  Television, and their University  Place crew, for taping today's  lecture.  I'm very pleased to introduce  our special guest today.  He is Tim Kelley, the Digital  Media Manager for Capital  Newspapers here in Madison.  Tim has been in his current  position for a year managing  Web sites and other electronic  media for Madison.com.  That includes the Capital Times  and the Wisconsin State Journal.  Previously, Tim worked as  managing editor for the  Wisconsin State Journal,  overseeing news, sports and  entertainment coverage by a  staff of about 90 people.  And he also worked as an Opinion  Page editor, writing and editing  commentary. 

 In the 1990s, he occupied  various editing and news  reporting jobs on the local news  desk.  Tim started in newspapers in the  1980s, after graduating from  UW Madison.  He and I both realized that we  had written for the Daily  Cardinal at the same time during  that time.  And he also worked in public  relations at University  Communications here at the UW,  as well as in the travel  industry, publishing in both  Madison and Singapore.  Now, what I've asked him to talk  with us about today is the  changing environment for print  media and newspapers in  particular, and how the  entrepreneurial imperative  applies to that industry.  So please join me in  welcoming Tim Kelley.  (applause)  >> Tim Kelley: Thank you.  Thanks, everybody.  And I wanted to thank all of you  who responded to the survey  earlier this week, which I found  very instructive.  We'll be referring to some of  the results from that later  today. 

 But obviously, it was not meant  to be a scientific survey, but  to really just give me a sense  of how much you know about print  media and our products.  And it turns out, not very much,  which is not unexpected.  But still a great concern to us.  As we talk through the next hour  or so about what challenges are  facing print media today, it'll  become readily apparent that  what you're thinking and feeling  about print media is real  important to our future  viability.  I'd like to cover three areas  today.  One would be to take a look at  some slides that will cover the  market trends, the business,  what's going on, why there's  such a need for change in print  media right now.  Second, what's going on in  consumer behavior, the changes  that we're trying to adapt to.  Third, giving you some examples  of things we are doing, and  trying to transform from  newspapers to online, and maybe  even to other products going  forward.  And of course, at any time,  please ask questions, make  observations.  I have a whole bunch of slides  and tons of data, but there's no  obligation to get through all  that. 

 I'd like to focus in on some  issues that are of particular  interest to this group today,  here.  So, here we go.  Here's the newspaper, the  Wisconsin State Journal.  It's been around since 1852.  It has had a fairly succesful  format.  Here you see on the front page,  a little bit of death, a little  bit of destruction, some sports,  and more recently, some  Simpsons.  That has worked pretty well  until the advent of the  Internet, probably, in the  mid-'90s and later, you'll see  in some later slides, some  trends in readership that are  pretty alarming to editors and  publishers of newspapers.  More recently, for about the  last ten years, Capital  Newspapers, the Capital Times  and the State Journal, and other  products, have had Madion.com  which is meant to be an  umbrella Web site that includes  all kinds of information about  Madison.  But again, it's a very news  oriented site.  This is the site that we asked  you to take a look at for the  survey. 

 And we continue to make changes.  This is a new design that just  debuted just this past month.  And much as you respond in your  survey, mixed results from some  of our more loyal audience.  Here's a trend line, or a series  of trend lines that are very  familiar and alarming to people  in print media.  It's a little bit hard to see or  realize, but it's four  demographic segments, starting  with 18-24, 25-34, 25-54, and  55+, that's the red line up on  top that are the people who grew  up with newspapers, continue to  be pretty loyal to print media  overall.  We've got a lock on them.  The more troubling trend lines,  of course, are the two on the  bottom, the yellow and the  green, which represent the  younger audience.  You'll see, after the advent of  the Web in the early '90s, the  downward trend accelerated  rapidly with younger users.  I'm sure that's not coming as a  surprise to anyone here.  But that is the situation that  we face right now in print. 

 The newspaper reading habit was  once something that print media  could count on.  Young adults, typically started  picking up newspapers and  subscribing to them, and  generally they stuck with them  throughout their lifetime.  Just like that red line, the 55+  folks, that's still true for  them.  But it's really the only  segment.  So this is clearly indicating  some need for change.  Also troubling is that as people  age, it's no longer true that  people read at the same  frequency and level that they  once did.  Again, it's a trend that's more  pronounced with the younger  demographic.  But it's even true with that  older group now, is they've  become more loyal to television  and other sources of  information.  There's a bright side on this,  which is that although print  readership is on decine, the new  audience that's being generated  by the Internet, actually means  that the content of print media,  of newspaper companies, is more  popular than it ever has been.  Back in 1994, print alone in  Madison had about two-thirds of  the audience here, of people who  responded to the surveys, saying  that they read the paper at  least once in the past week. 

 Now, that number, if you combine  print and online, is about 70%.  So, the audience actually is  greater than it's ever been.  You'll see here, overall market  reach for the products that we  produce, or have produced,  in the past, the Sunday State  Journal, the daily State  Journal, Madison.com  and the Cap Times.  Four out of the six most  frequently read products belong  to Capital Newspapers.  So what's the big issue?  Well, the class survey certainly  showed us a few things.  One is that among younger folks  in the Madison area, they're  much less familiar with the  products.  You responded, one in ten of  you, are regular users of  Madison.com.  The other 90 percent of you  indicated that you really hadn't  heard of it before.  That's a marketing problem for  us, a big one.  But also, your response to the  survey about Madison.com  indicated to us that what  was once the strength of  newspapers, being a great  general interest product, is  actually a weakness on the Web  site. 

 To you, the target audience,  for Madison.com  it really wasn't clear.  It seemed to have a lot of  stuff, but what was really the  focus of the site.  There was no consensus among  you, much like our regular users  though, of what were the best  aspects and what are the worst  aspects of the site.  Again, because the site tends to  have a fairly one-size-fits-all  approach, it's got a little bit  of everything, to some people,  it seemed like a clean design.  To others, it seems really  cluttered.  That's because there's no really  sharp targeting of Madison.com,  it's meant to be site  that's kind of for everybody.  Most telling, there's a lot of  competition for your time and  attention, so it's going to be  difficult for us in print media.  We're on the Web to rope you in  as customers, because you tend  to get your information in  places that are not from  traditional media, from links  from friends, from email  newsletters, from the campus Web  site, from niche products, from  a lot of sources that are not  newspapers or newspaper oriented  Web sites.  There are business issues, as  well.  People are still arguing about  the fact that newspapers, back  when they went on the Internet,  by and large decided not to  charge for the stuff that they  published to the Web, unlike  what they do in print, where you  pay a fairly hefty subscription,  a couple hundred dollars a year,  to receive a daily newspaper. 

 Publishers offered free access  to information online, because  they expected they'd get  millions of page views, and  thousands of visitors, and that  they would be able to charge  advertisers a premium rate for  that audience.  Well, the first part worked.  Newspaper Web sites are pretty  popular, along with television,  Web sites, radio as sources of  news and information.  But the second part, being able  to charge a lot of money for  ads, really didn't work out.  And that has become a problem  for newspapers that were  incredibly profitable in print,  much less so online.  There's probably not a news  oriented Web site that actually,  if you assigned all the costs to  it, made any money.  I mean, print still makes a lot  of money for newspapers.  Again, the reasons that it  hasn't worked out so well for  us, Internet ad rates are much  lower than you can charge in  print.  That's just been a historical  fact.  Classified ads, which are the  little, teeny type ads that run  in the back of publications,  that market pretty much  collapsed. 

 It was a very lucrative source  of revenue, but because of  Craig's List and other  alternatives online, you don't  really see as much money coming  in there anymore.  A big problem for us.  Then there were larger trends in  the economy.  Retailers, the big boxes, have  consolidated.  The very lucrative large source  of revenue for those great big  ads you see in the Sunday paper,  and the inserts, the shoppers in  the daily newspapers, those have  started to dry up.  And finally, and most recently,  the recession has cut into the  last really reliable source of  revenue for print media.  And those are the mini local  advertisers, all the State Stree  shops, and what have you,  have all cut back on their  spending, as well.  So, any questions so far, just  on the business aspect here?  It's pretty clear  it's pretty bleak.  As I mentioned, some people in  the news industry think that it  was a mistake to give away  content, that we should've tried  to figure out a way to make this  work by charging people for it.  This quote probably sums up both  an indictment of news media and  an opportunity. 

 There is all kinds of free stuff  out there on the Web.  The challenge for us would be to  make it seem like the content on  our Web site is so valuable, you  can't do without it, and that  it's actually higher quality  than most of the stuff that you  find.  We can talk about how exactly  you can create that impression  with your users a little bit  later in the Q&A if you want to.  There are very few sites, as I  said, that get away with  charging for access.  You may see that a little more  on sports sites.  Again, highly targeted sites  that appeal to a niche audience.  ESPN, for example has an insider  product on its Web site.  It costs $30 a year, or  something like that.  And it's supposed to make you,  obviously, an insider.  You're going to know more about  sports than anybody else, if you  pay some money to get access to  that premium content. 

 But by and large, news is  considered a commodity.  If you can't get it over here  because they're charging for it,  you can probably find it over  there for free.  At the same time, news media are  having trouble competing online,  because upstart competitors,  bloggers, whathaveyou, actually  sort of build off of news  content through linking and  repurposing, to create their own  products, maybe with a point of  view, maybe with a special take.  Maybe they're slicing a little  piece of the market off and  developing their own following,  supplementing their own original  work with news content that's  available for free.  And finally, there are a whole  bunch of established competitors  doing the very same thing as  print media, TV stations, radio  stations, you know, Web-based  operations.  We are all doing the same stuff.  The competition is pretty heavy.  Here in Madison, it's no  different than most places in  the country.  The afternoon newspaper, the  Capital Times, stopped  publishing a year ago, almost a  year ago, in April.  It still exists as a weekly that  is distributed with the State  Journal, the other newspaper in  town. 

 And it maintains a Web site,  with a much smaller staff than  it did during its print heyday.  The Wisconsin State Journal is a  newspaper that circulates in  Madison and into the region.  In 1994, it hit its circulation  peak, which was about 100,000  daily and about 164,000 on  Sunday.  You can see that it has shrunk  substantially on Sunday, which  was the most lucrative day of  publication.  Those of you familiar with the  newspaper know it's much fatter  and has a lot more advertising  and more readers, typically, on  Sunday.  Madison.com is doing okay.  Again, this is the Web site  that includes the content of  both of the papers, along with a  lot of other stuff.  About ten million page views a  month.  That is steady.  It is not rapidly growing  anymore at this point. 

 It seems to have topped out it's  potential as a news site.  And so, of course, we'll be  talking a little later about  some of the things we're trying  to do to capture a new audience,  to keep building that.  A couple of other facts, just  quickly.  We still have a lot of  potential, again, many people in  the metro area are not a user of  Madison.com yet.  We'll be looking for ways to  reach them, new approaches.  And one of the primary  competitors for local news  sites, is of course, search  engines.  Google and Yahoo!  are far more popular with users  in the Madison area than the Web  site for Madison.  A couple of overall trends, and  then going forward into the  future.  Two things that we'll be  grappling with in print media.  Fragmentation is really the  diffusion of the audience into  special niches, things. 

 People who want certain types of  content are not really attracted  by a general interest product.  Again, the formula that's served  newspapers so well through most  of their history is starting to  fall apart now.  People have less time.  They have more intense  interests.  The Web has opened up all new  horizons.  You can go very deep into a  content area you're interested  in.  Print media, I think we were  caught a little flat footed by  that, thinking that there would  always be a place for sort of a  general interest browsable  product, whether in print or  online.  But things have fragmented  pretty dramatically.  This has affected TV, as well,   as you may know.  I mean, cable is a great example  of it. 

 Some of the most viewed channels  in Madison would be ESPN, Comedy  Central, Food Network.  I don't think CNN, the news  site, comes in the top six or  seven, as far as most-viewed  channels in the area.  Businesses also no longer want  the mass audience.  What newspapers charged for was  reach, you know, being able to  get to everybody in the market,  or substantially close to  everybody in the market.  Most businesses don't care about  that anymore.  They want a tightly targeted  slice of the market, people who  are actually motivated to buy  their product or service.  And they're gravitating their  advertising spending, moving  their advertising spending to  products that can deliver that.  Again, that's an advantage for  some of the upstart  entrepreneurial competitors to  print media, because that's what  they do.  They're in the business of  attracting a very small, but  intensely interested piece of  the overall audience.  And even though they may not be  able to charge as much,  businesses find that it's more  effective to use them, because  they're getting better results. 

 Convergence is the other  concept.  It's been difficult, I think,  for some of my colleagues in the  newsrooms, and also in the  advertising area, to believe  that text alone just isn't  powerful enough anymore to  appeal to the audience.  Folks your age, and older too, I  shouldn't stereotype our  demographic, are more interested  in a visual approach, more  interested in accessing  different types of content, not  necessarily just old-fashioned  articles about happenings here  in the community.  So newspaper, television, radio,  Web, these are all just  different delivery channels for  stuff, for the content, for the  information that we produce.  And it looks, going to the  future, that they'll be some  convergence of these different  types of media, under one  umbrella.  And we're doing some of that  now.  And if you do spend a little bit  of time on Madison.com,  you'll find video there,  you'll find databases, other  types of things there.  But still, the overarching  product is text-based.  And that probably will not be  good enough going forward.  So, again, for entrepreneurial  thinking, new ways of presenting  information to sort of match  consumption habits. 

 So what are the imperatives?  These would sum it up.  We won't have time, probably, to  go through all these in great  detail.  But the first two, figuring out  a new business model, a new way  to make money with print or  online, is obviously paramount  for the newspaper industry.  Reaching new audiences is  critical.  One of the discussion points  that often comes up in our  strategic planning, is we come  up with a lot of really great  ideas, but most of them appeal  to an audience that we already  have, and that is diminishing  due to age and migration to  other types of media.  We need to re-establish brand  loyalty online.  Again, that goes right to the  survey results of this group,  with only one in ten of you  really knowing about  Madison. com.  Obviously, there has to be some  way to attract a new audience,  and to get you to stick with us.  And streamlining operations is  just a business reality.  In newspaper, companies tended  to be very large, very well  staffed. 

 And if you've been reading and  hearing about the situation  recently, of course, they're  downsizing fairly dramatically  in some markets.  Finally, transforming the  product line.  That's where I hope we will  spend a little bit of time  discussing a little bit back and  forth later, is what types of  new products and new delivery  channels would really appeal to  the audience that we don't  already have out there.  So I'd like to ask you, and  first, if there's anybody who is  a newspaper reader in the  audience, what is it about  print, information delivered in  print that is appealing to you.  Why would you read a newspaper?  What would you get from it?  What's its advantage, as opposed  to some other type of media?  >> It's kind of interesting to  see which stories are picked to  be in the newspaper, especially  local newspapers.  I don't know, I kind of like  reading what's going on in the  neighborhood, and what is  salient to most people, the  editors.  >> Kelley: So, you like the fact  that the paper is edited, that  somebody makes a selection, and  active selection of what to put  in it, as opposed to just  looking on the Internet to see  what you can find?  >> I don't know if I necessarily  like it, but it's interesting.  (light laughter)  >> Good, thank you for that.  >> I was just going to say,  I like paper sometimes, because  you can carry them around and go  to them in your free time.  You don't have to carry around a  laptop. 

 And sometimes it's refreshing to  read something on paper instead  of everything off  a computer screen.  >> Kelly: Portability,  you can take it with you.  >> Kind of to add on that.  I think it's nice to have  something actually tangible,  that you can have, you know.  And then, you can also have it  as a reference point later, if  you were to say, to write a  paper about it, you can always  refer back to it.  Then you always have it within  your grasp, without having to go  through search engine and search  engine to find what you need.  >> Kelley: Do you ever clip and  save anything?  >> Sometimes.  >> Kelley: So, it's part of  that.  >> Yeah.  >> Kelley: Anybody else?  Well, it's interesting that you  bring up the idea of carrying it  around. 

 Because when we survey people,  we find that everything is  tactile with a newspaper.  People like to carry it.  They like to have it in their  hands.  It's not even so much about the  content.  It's just that it's a convenient  device for getting information  and taking it with you.  People also like coupons and  advertising, and there's plenty  of that in newspapers.  So, some people buy the  newspaper, not for the news, but  so they can get coupons, check  out the specials, see what's  going on.  It's actually one of the most  reliable factors in newspaper  purchases, particularly for the  Sunday paper.  So those probably aren't good  enough, though, because they're  not really about the content,  they're about the product.  And the fact is, the product is  getting a little less popular. 

 So I'd like to ask you now,  okay, so we want to migrate a  bunch of this stuff to the Web.  We want to do new things on the  Web.  What are the advantages of  getting your information online,  those of you who don't use a  newspaper?  What are you looking for in an  online experience from a Web  site, when you're trying to get  news, or just community  information?  >> I look online, because I  think I can get any information,  like on any topic.  So it may not be there in the  newspaper.  Or, if I want to look something  more in detail.  So maybe that news, maybe it's  there in the newspaper, but may  not be in depth.  >> Kelley: Not in depth,  and not breadth.  You might have interests that  aren't even represented by a  newspaper.  >> Yeah, exactly.  >> Yasiri: I want to encourage  people to put the mic up close  to your mouth so we can hear  you. 

 >> I choose online news because  I feel it's more up to date.  I don't have to wait for an  editor to choose a story, and  have it be printed in a paper,  you know, someone can just type  it in online as it's happening.  And you know, if multiple people  are doing that, you can get  multiple sides of a story right  away.  >> Kelley: So, immediacy is part  of it, the idea you don't have  to wait until it comes out and  lands on your doorstep or in  your apartment mailbox.  >> I think this was kind of  covered before, but I just like  how online, there are mostly  headlines that you can read.  You don't really have to get in  depth in the story to know  what's going on.  You can just read headlines, or  like, even if it's on an  application or something for my  phone, you can just look at it.  It's quick.  It's easy.  And you know what's going on. 

 >> Kelley: Definitely,  time-starved readers are a group  that we obsess on, you know, the  idea of how can you get a lot of  information to people fast.  >> I like being able to share  content that's posted online  with friends and family.  And it goes both ways, so I  think that's a major advantage.  >> Kelley: So, sharing tools,  being able to pass it along.  You're our favorite person  online, then, because that's how  we think most people are going  to get information in the  future.  We can get into that a little  later, but the idea that even  having the Web site isn't as  important as having the content,  and getting people to share it  back and forth.  That's how we'll generate new  audience and find new revenue.  >> I like looking online because  of the sheer environmental  impact.  I mean, obviously, you're not  killing trees.  And you can recycle, but it's  something you just don't have to  deal with when you're online. 

 >> Kelley: It's a funny thing,  and I didn't put it on the  previous slide, and probably  should have.  But not having newspaper piling  up around your home or  apartment, or whatever, not  consuming that stuff is really  increasingly important to  people.  So I appreciate your sharing  that, because it's definitely a  factor.  >> I like using the Internet,  because one interesting link can  lead to another intersting link,  and it's just kind of like a  chain reaction.  And it's also, you can access,  like, later news and stuff, so  you can always look back to, I  don't know, what happened two  months ago, or stories that ran  like a year ago.  That's why I like using the  Internet.  >> Kelley: Great, thanks.  Well, all of the thoughts you  just shared generally match what  we see overall.  And that shouldn't be a surprise  to anyone.  Unfortunately for print media,  and really for anybody doing  information online, these  attributes are a little bit  weak. 

 I mean, every Web site can do  this stuff, if it's any good.  And particularly for us, it's a  little bit of an issue, because  you know, a search engine can  fulfill these obligations, these  demands of the consumer just as  easily as our own Web site can.  And the reason why it's so  important to us that you come to  our Web site rather than simply  just scan some headlines that  you can return through a search  is that we need you to visit us  so that we can make money off of  you.  It is difficult when people  begin and end with what call  aggregators.  MyYahoo or iGoogle, or whatever,  where you just quickly scan some  headine feeds that are pulled  in.  You don't ever get to our site  to see the full story, see the  advertising with it, or maybe  make a transaction at our site.  So, it cuts both ways.  We need to appeal to people who  want that experience, but we're  looking for ways that we can  also make a little money off of  it.  So, we're always looking for  a new audience.  And where are we going to find  those folks. 

 Well, we've focused, almost  always, on people who don't  currently read newspapers.  And probably for too many years  in the 1990s, newspapers spent a  lot of their marketing dollars  and strategic planning time  thinking about how to get people  into newspapers.  I think we got over that  recently.  And probably, it was a little  late in coming.  We'll probably be looking, not  only for people who visit Web  sites, but also cell phone  users, we want to get to people  who are using social networking  sites.  We sure would like to capture  television news watchers.  That's why we do more video.  That's a big segment of the  audience that would be difficult  to come by.  And typically, just people who  are seeking utlity and  relevance, you know, we want to  be able to deliver the  information you want at the time  you want it.  A couple of you have already  referenced the reason why you  use the Web is so you can  exactly what you want. 

 We also put folks in a couple of  demographic segments.  Obviously, the more affluent  consumers tend to use both print  and online, so have great  potential for us.  Plus, our customers, our  business customers, are very  interested in reaching people  who have money to buy stuff,  obviously, and the best way we  can match them up between the  products they offer and the  interests that the audience has,  the better off we'll be.  And of course, we're trying to  get to you.  That's a big challenge for us,  as I mentioned before.  You've got a lot of ways to get  information, many of them have  nothing to do with us.  But we're hoping you're going to  find value in us at some point,  and as we discuss things today,  maybe I'll get a great  brainstorm exactly how we're  going to do that.  >> Yasiri: Tim, if I could  interrupt a second, Martin has a  question for you.  >> Kelley: Sure.  >> Actually, I just discovered  your mobile page. 

 And on your mobile page, there's  actually no advertising at all.  So what's the idea behind that?  >> Right now?  Audience alone.  Just to get mobile users,  because two weeks ago, we didn't  have a mobile site, believe it  or not.  All you could do was look at  Madison.com, the regular site  squished down on your screen.  It works okay on an iPhone, but  not okay for just about  everybody else.  So the site is brand new.  Just haven't lined up an  advertiser yet.  For sure, we want to monetize  that.  We will have an iPhone app.  I'll talk about some of these  things in detail later, but it's  a great observation. 

 Some stuff we're just doing  because we have to get there.  We have to be doing it.  And we haven't figured out, or  haven't found anyone yet, who  wants to underwrite it or  sponsor it so we can make some  money off of it, as well.  But thanks for checking it out.  I do appreciate that.  And that's one of the main  things we're going to have to  do.  We're going to have to reach  people beyond the Web site, the  mobile edition, just by  coincidence, is the first item  on the slide here.  We're also doing text messaging  products that will, again, be  more of a marketing tool than a  money-making tool.  It's to get that sense that  Madison. com  has immediacy, has stuff you  want when you want it.  So we'll ping you with text  messages that you sign up for,  and can be as specific as a  college or high school sports  score, or as broad as severe  weather alerts for the Madison  area, or breaking news of any  type. 

 We'll be getting into email  marketing more.  Many of you use email.  This is an area in which you  have to be very skillful.  People don't like spam.  They want stuff that is relevant  to them.  There's a lot of database work  that goes into something like  this, so you know what that  customer list represents, you  know, what the interest of these  folks are, and what they might  be interested in receiving from  you, and make sure that you  match that up.  However, it's very difficult to  get people to volunteer  information.  So there's a little art and  science behind email marketing.  Again, social networks.  Not that we want to start our  own, but we'd sure like to be  able to use the large and  existing social networks. 

 Who doesn't have a Facebook  page?  We do go out, and we have a few  thousand friends.  But again, we take slices and  ping certain dozens of people  with maybe a link to an article,  or maybe a product that an  advertiser is selling.  We do try and do those things  right now.  So it may be you're already  receiving links to content  on Madison.com through friends  or family.  But it might have originated  with us.  And we'll probably do even more  of that.  And as I mentioned, the iPhone  app, ways of syndicating our  content out to where people live  on the Internet, as opposed to  trying to, you know, raise our  hand and get you to come visit  our site.  We have to push our stuff out to  you.  As I mentioned earlier, print  media really needs to move  beyond text.  Text alone is not good enough. 

 We're doing video now.  Databases, I think that you will  see more and more that the  presentation of information on  the Web, whether it's local  community stuff or national  news, will take different forms  that are not articles in a long  narrative.  There's still a place for that,  both in print and online.  We'll be trying to package stuff  in ways that allows you to  access it quickly.  I already mentioned looking to  go indepth, so layering  information deeper and deeper,  and packaging it in a way that's  easy to navigate.  Doing games, I mean we do this  now.  I could show you a couple  afterwards.  It's just a different way of  accessing community information.  We have games for sports.  We have games for you build the  city budget. 

 We have things that are tied to  community information and  events, but they're put in a  form that you can interact with,  and hopefully have a little bit  of fun with.  And we're sort of breaking down  the newspaper down into niche  products, again, special  interests.  You already see that  in Madison.com if you did  some clicking around.  Some of the traditional  newspaper stuff is off in one  area, but other content that  used to be part of the newspaper  has its own area on the site  now.  Sports and entertainment are two  areas where you're really  bulking up content, trying to  promote that, make it more  accessible and package it again,  in deeper and deeper layers for  people who are interested in  that, all of the locally focused  stuff.  But there are about five ways to  appeal to people on the  Internet.  And newspaper and print media in  general only do one of them  really well, and that's inform  people.  So we are looking for ways to do  the others.  Sharing, creating, entertaining  people.  And transactions, actually  fostering business exchange for  our customers. 

 All big things that I think  print media will need to get  into online, if we're going to  be viable for the longterm.  Can any of you give me any  examples of sites or tools that  you use on the Web right now  that fit into these other  categories that we don't do very  well, sharing, creating,  entertaining?  Amazon.com, obviously is an  example of a transaction-based  place.  And obviously, the Facebook  icon is sitting up there.  They do probably three or four  of these, maybe all five,  fairly well.  That's the direction that we're  hoping to have.  We also need better technology.  This is where the upstarts,  the smaller competitors  move faster, and nibble away  little pieces of our audience  very well.  They leverage technology better.  Newspapers tended to want to  invent their own technology,  which can take a long time, and  is maybe not so effective.  Now, we're partnering more with  existing Web based businesses,  Yahoo!  being one of them. 

 That has turned out to be fairly  lucrative for the newspaper  industry in general, and  Madison.com and the two  newspapers are part of that  network as well.  And we can talk a little bit  more about that if you're  interested.  It's more behavioral targeting  based, again, matching  advertising to users, as opposed  to just spraying ads out of the  Internet, and whoever sees them  sees them.  It gives more specific and more  measurable results, obviously  more powerful for adverstisers  in general.  We also have to move beyond  advertising, though, which is a  model that probably also isn't  sustainable for the long-term.  This will involve a big mindset  change and retraining of the  folks who go out and sell stuff  for us now, to make them into  more of a resource for local  businesses, so one-stop  marketing and sales consulting  both for print and for online.  So maybe you buy a print ad, but  it doesn't start and end there  anymore.  If you're a local business who  wants to reach people on the  Internet, hopefully we will have  some other tools for targeting  and connecting with potential  customers for you.  Again, this is more of a  training and resource issue for  us, and one that is actually  underway right now.  Again, the focus is mostly on  small, local businesses, because  the large businesses, obviously  have their own staff and  resources for pursuing their own  stuff online. 

 Finally, we want to transform  the product.  And that is the biggest  challenge for us.  One of the main ways, I think,  we will need to appeal to you is  to make our content more  customizable, more accessible  and manipulated by you.  And again, a very big mindset  change for people who have done  print media for a long time, who  are very used to packaging  static information, whether it  be on a newspaper page or a Web  page that you were supposed to  consume in the form that we  deliver it to you.  We think that probably the  higher potential, again, is us  pushing the content out to you,  to give you the controls so you  can decide.  Maybe hopefully in the next six  months, we'll have a personal  page at Madison.com where you  can pick and choose the elements  of our site that you like,  organize it on the page,  much like you might do with  MyYahoo or iGoogle, or one  of the other personalized sites.  Then, when you come back to our  site, you just see the things  that you're most interested in.  No time wasted browsing through  things.  We set up notifications for you  so you'll know when there's  something that you might want to  check out.  That takes us back to the  imperatives. 

 So we talked about the two.  Getting some cash and finding a  new audience.  I talked a little bit about  brand loyalty.  Streamlining and the product  line.  This is the part where I try and  turn the tables on you guys, and  get you to give me some ideas on  what exactly we could do.  What else could we do, other  than the things here that are  giving you a quick overview,  that might capture you as an  audience?  What would we do, if we could,  to get your loyalty, produce a  product that you don't already  have, or a service or something,  related information, preferably  local information, which is what  we do best.  Any ideas out there?  >> Just for advertising on  Facebook, and I have a Facebook  page.  But you could advertise on the  sides, 'cause like anyone in  Madison would see that.  >> Kelley: Like self-service  advertising, that you could  create yourself and place?  Sure, we've talked about it.  It's great to hear that someone  is interested in that. 

 There's two ways of thinking  about it.  And to hear that there would be  a market for that is great news.  >> I'm not sure if this is  included or not, but a  networking use for the site for  students, or employers, or  socially.  >> Kelley: Sure, for us  it's been a debate over--  Do you have a Facebook page?  So how would we get you to come  use our social networking,  if you already have one?  That's sort of the crux  of it for us.  Through other things.  Other communities of interests,  or maybe something that you have  an interest in, we could create  a space for that and be  interactive.  It wouldn't just be about  consuming articles or  information.  It would be a place where you  contribute, and you can see the  contributions of others.  Sure, yeah.  We're not doing very much of it,  but it sounds like a great area  of opportunity. 

 >> I was just thinking, for  maybe members, you could create  some sort of ranking system on  what type of stories they'd like  to hear, and they can make that  their home page when they walk  in.  You know, show them the most  relavent to their interests, or  something like that.  >> Kelley: It definitely falls  into the category of user tools.  And it has to be better than  just most popular stuff on a  site, right, where people  actively rank things.  This is worth looking at.  This is worth reading, or this  is worth doing whatever with.  I think that's a very good idea.  The site has that, but only in  certain areas and it tends not  to be on the stuff that's  produced by the newspapers.  So I think that would be a good  idea to pursue.  Obviously, referrals and  recommendations are much more  powerful than just editors  setting up organized lists of  stuff that they think you ought  to look at. 

 I think we're starting to make  that transition.  But a long way to go there.  >> I think it'd be kind of  interesting if, you know, I know  a lot of people read a lot of  articles online.  Maybe if you can interact with  the writer of the article.  If you had questions, specific  questions for the writer, that  they could maybe get on and say,  well, this was what I was  thinking for this type of thing.  Or they can, you know, answer  your question specifically,  instead of having to go and like  find information elsewhere to  try to you know, get your direct  questions answered.  >> Kelley: Sure, so the article  is not the beginning and the  end, it's sort of the starting  point for discussion.  We have some folks who are  better at that than others.  But it is an area where we have  the tools already available.  You can attach questions or  comments to any piece of  content, really, that's at  Madison.com. 

 The main question then  is whether or not someone comes  back and responds to you in a  timely way.  And I think if we're going to  push in that direction, we have  to make sure that the response  is consistent, that it's always  there.  Otherwise, you're talking into a  vacuum, and it's an alienating  experience instead of one that  connects.  >> This may be kind of similar,  I don't know if you guys already  have this, but discussion  boards, especially like for the  entertainment section, where you  like list shows, and people can  say or discuss whether they  liked it or not.  >> Kelley: In the entertainment  category, I think we have a lot  of work to do.  You can read and react to  things, you know, reviews or  things that are posted by our  professional staff.  But there isn't a good area  where people who went to High  Noon and saw a great show, and  want to put something up about  that.  It's not really connected to our  entertainment site.  It sits over here in a place  that are really just discussion  boards for any topic.  And that's a little bit of a  weakness for us. 

 Again, we're wanting to connect  all the related stuff together,  so you don't have to hunt very  hard to find what you want, and  give you easy ways to  participate.  So the entertainment category is  a great opportunity for us here  in Madison, particularly where  the culture is pretty rich, and  there's a whole lot going on.  But the user generated stuff,  there's an area for it, but I  think it could be a lot better  if it was all together, so you  had your events, you had the  reviews by staff, you had just  general information about what's  going on, and then you had  people's reactions and  interaction about local culture.  All in one place.  Then you could slice it up the  way that you wanted to, again, I  talked about these widgets that  we'd like to do.  It's a great idea.  No, we don't do it that well.  Other stuff?  >> Yasiri: Tim, I'm curious  about something.  It's almost entirely different,  but some of this is going to  color my more age-ist  perspective, just because I'm  older, and I already put you in  that category by introducing us  as having gone to school about  the same time.  So, as a former journalist, I  have concerns that if the  primary news source for this  generation of students is  something that they might or  might not have seen on Facebook,  or is from blogs, but not what I  will term credible news sources. 

 What's the danger in that?  And can you share, from your  perspective as a journalist, how  that can be dangerous in terms  of getting good information  about news that's happening in  your community and your world.  >> Kelley: That's a really  multi-faceted question, thanks.  One part of it is that, you  know, folks who remember the  heyday of newspapers, you know  that newspapers and the old  television networks used to be a  common point of reference.  I mean, if you got a paper, or  you watched the network news  cast, you knew the same stuff as  everybody else knew.  And that is certainly not true  anymore.  It's that fragmentation thing  that we were talking about,  which is, you can know a ton of  stuff about one category that  you particularly have an  interest in, but you may know  nothing about national affairs,  and you may know nothing about,  you name it.  However, people probably never  read newspapers that way.  I mean, my experience as  managing editor of the State  Journal was that we got the most  negative reaction from readers  when we changed something in the  comics, or in the games, or in  the sports section.  But we could change up almost  anything in the news sections,  and the reaction would be much  less, because there was,  frankly, just a narrower  audience for certain categories  of news.  That was more of a generalist  thing. 

 But yeah, not having common  points of reference, is it  hurting us?  It's really an opinion.  And I think that people are  pretty good at sifting through  what's on the Web, and picking  the credible stuff from the  non-credible stuff.  But even people's definition of  what is credible is different.  If you are really loyal to a  particular blogger and his or  her point of view, that's  credible information to you.  And relavent.  And you can act on it.  And that's okay.  It's not a news article, but  it's still maybe valuable  information to you.  So it's hard for me to say,  well, the mainstream media  should really have a place on  the Internet, and everybody has  to look at it.  We like you to, but you know, we  can't make you. 

 And everybody's going to have  different ways of accessing our  stuff.  Now, you may never have to leave  Facebook, and still get  information from Madison.com.  Like I said, we'll make a push  to sort of seed our content out  on Facebook, and get references,  and referrals from people.  So, there's going to be news  content floating around there,  too.  >> Yasiri: What other questions  do we have for Tim?  Let's talk a little bit, as I  walk to their hands, about the  smaller community paper.  How are they doing in this  environment?  I'm talking about the paper that  maybe comes out just twice a  week.  >> Kelley: Yeah, that's a great  point.  I didn't really get too deep  into that business aspect.  But this sort of disaster for  print media that I outlined at  the top of the slide show about  the business is really a trickle  down thing.  It has affected metropolitan  newspapers, the largest  organizations far more than the  small community newspapers. 

 They still have tight  connections with our community,  exclusive local content, and not  very much Web presence.  You've got to look at the paper  if you want to see what's going  on.  So I don't think there's as much  of a threat to the small town  papers.  They'll probably be the last  ones out there.  But the larger papers with the  broadest reach, and probably the  least connection at that deep  level, your neighborhood, your  school, you know, something that  is really close to you, that's  where we've seen the biggest  declines, both in readership and  adverstising, and where the  organizations that have had the  most trouble recovering with  Internet operations to sort of  replicate what they did in  print.  Yes, sir.  >> This is sort of a  multi-question.  Just what it was that you  studied in school, in college,  if you found it applicable, and  if there's any advice that you  could give to us.  >> Kelley: I studied history and  journalism.  And the history part, of course,  was far more useful, even than  journalism, just because it was  deeper perspectives. 

 If you don't know what came  before, you can't know the  future.  You know, that old cliche about  being doomed to repeat the past.  So yeah, I was probably deeper  into history.  But the School of Journalism at  the time was pretty overcrowded.  I took journalism courses, but I  couldn't even get into the  courses until junior standing.  So the history thing was almost  a default.  The second part of the question?  I'd say, yeah, obviously study  broadly.  Experience widely.  For sure.  You know, you can't go wrong  with a liberal arts education,  at least from my perspective. 

 But of course, that's what I  did.  That's where I'd be coming from  rather than getting too  specialized too soon.  I mean, clearly, my own career  reflects it, too, even though I  still work in the media  industry, I've occupied a lot of  different positions.  There's no one trajectory.  People don't tend to specialize  and stay in one career area  their entire lives anymore,  obviously.  Maybe not even for a few years.  I've liked to change things up  and gather experience along the  way.  But it's been kind of a thing  like this.  I've been in and out of  newspapers, for example.  I've done other things along the  way, just to try them. 

 You know, try something new.  I think the broad education can  only help you there.  >> All innovations, what you're  doing right now, I'm just  wondering, do you see any future  for just regular newspapers?  >> Kelley: I wanted to ask you  guys that!  Do we see a future?  You know, I don't believe in  doom and gloom, that newspapers  are gone in the next three  years, or anything like that.  But you know, the trend lines  are pretty apparent.  It's not so much that people  don't want the content, but the  delivery vehicle doesn't work,  and the business model doesn't  work.  People just don't tote around  newspapers like they used to.  But there is still a healthy  segment of the audience that  does.  That can't last forever.  We can't just sit back and say,  well, we'll just kind of ride  this thing down hill and stick  around for as long as we can.  We really need to transform. 

 Will printed newspapers be here?  I don't know.  There's a new invention every  year.  Some newspapers are on Kindle.  Apple is going to have a tablet  coming out that's sort of a  multi-media approach.  There's all kinds of ways to mix  things up.  The content is always going to  have value.  And that goes back to the  multi-part question you asked  about.  What is the whole purpose of  having journalism?  I think it's always going to be  out there.  But it's going to exist in  different forms.  And it's really hard to predict. 

 When does it hit?  Well, consumer behavior changes  so quickly now.  And technology changes even  faster.  So it'll be interesting to see.  I think for print media, if they  want to survive, it's just  getting smarter about being on  top of these changes and  building culture, technology and  business, and being ready to  meet the challenge.  >> Yasiri: Well, I was  interested to note that in last  week's Chronicle of Higher  Education, there was an article  talking about the number of  young people that are still  interested in studying  journalism.  So, it will be interesting to  see what kind of work they're  doing in the future.  And perhaps that's a good sign  for the industry.  So please join me in thanking  Tim Kelley for his thoughts.  (applause)  >> Kelley: Thank you very much.