1
00:00:01,134 --> 00:00:02,803
[gentle music]

2
00:00:08,208 --> 00:00:09,743
- Norman Gilliland: Films are
often referred to

3
00:00:09,810 --> 00:00:11,311
by the name of their director.

4
00:00:11,378 --> 00:00:14,381
A Kurosawa film, a Hitchcock
film, a Kubrick film.

5
00:00:14,448 --> 00:00:18,185
But how much control does
a director have over a film?

6
00:00:18,252 --> 00:00:19,987
Welcome to
<i>University Place Presents.</i>

7
00:00:20,053 --> 00:00:21,922
I'm Norman Gilliland.

8
00:00:21,989 --> 00:00:24,558
Some of the most famous
American films

9
00:00:24,625 --> 00:00:27,861
are closely linked
to director John Ford.

10
00:00:27,928 --> 00:00:29,897
How much control did he have?

11
00:00:29,963 --> 00:00:31,465
We'll find out
from the author

12
00:00:31,532 --> 00:00:34,668
of <i>John Ford at Work,</i>
film historian Lea Jacobs.

13
00:00:34,735 --> 00:00:36,703
Welcome to
<i>University Place Presents.</i>

14
00:00:36,770 --> 00:00:39,406
- Lea Jacobs: Thanks,
good to be here.

15
00:00:39,473 --> 00:00:42,209
- If you just look at the list
of the films by John Ford,

16
00:00:42,276 --> 00:00:44,378
let me go all the way back to,
what, 1917

17
00:00:44,444 --> 00:00:48,148
and all the way forward, what--
- '65.

18
00:00:48,215 --> 00:00:49,883
- 1965.

19
00:00:50,317 --> 00:00:55,022
And still some heavy-hitting
films very late in his career.

20
00:00:55,088 --> 00:00:56,190
- Lea: Yeah.

21
00:00:56,256 --> 00:00:58,492
- From silent films
all the way to color

22
00:00:58,559 --> 00:01:02,396
and all kinds
of technological innovations.

23
00:01:02,462 --> 00:01:05,532
But let's look at several
of his films

24
00:01:05,599 --> 00:01:08,302
that give us an idea
of how much control he had

25
00:01:08,368 --> 00:01:10,204
and how he exerted that control.

26
00:01:10,270 --> 00:01:16,276
And most notably, you want to
start in 1931 with <i>Arrowsmith.</i>

27
00:01:16,343 --> 00:01:18,478
New to talking films
at this point,

28
00:01:18,545 --> 00:01:21,148
right at the edge between
silents and talkies, right?

29
00:01:21,215 --> 00:01:24,351
- This was not his
first talking film,

30
00:01:24,418 --> 00:01:28,889
but it was one in which
he had a much bigger budget

31
00:01:29,923 --> 00:01:31,859
than he had previously.

32
00:01:31,925 --> 00:01:35,362
His early sound films were made
just at the Depression.

33
00:01:35,429 --> 00:01:37,097
You know, the crash came

34
00:01:37,164 --> 00:01:39,266
just as the conversion to sound
happened,

35
00:01:39,333 --> 00:01:42,569
so Ford was now working
for Goldwyn

36
00:01:44,071 --> 00:01:45,873
when he made <i>Arrowsmith,</i>

37
00:01:45,939 --> 00:01:50,511
and the film is an example
of him having the budget

38
00:01:51,678 --> 00:01:56,049
and the freedom to really
experiment with the direction.

39
00:01:56,116 --> 00:02:01,121
He didn't have to just shoot
things on the fly, outside,

40
00:02:01,188 --> 00:02:03,690
you know, just getting,
capturing real sound.

41
00:02:03,757 --> 00:02:07,828
He was able to control
the flow of the scene

42
00:02:07,895 --> 00:02:10,964
and to stage for sound in a way.

43
00:02:11,031 --> 00:02:12,566
- So, what did
he do with <i>Arrowsmith</i>

44
00:02:12,633 --> 00:02:14,234
that he hadn't done before?

45
00:02:14,301 --> 00:02:17,504
- He tries a lot
of different things.

46
00:02:17,571 --> 00:02:19,640
That's one of the interesting
things about the film

47
00:02:19,706 --> 00:02:22,943
and about Ford
that I learned from this film,

48
00:02:23,010 --> 00:02:26,346
is that he was basically
a tech geek.

49
00:02:27,581 --> 00:02:30,584
I mean, he loved playing
with the technology.

50
00:02:30,651 --> 00:02:32,886
He tried different kinds
of things.

51
00:02:32,953 --> 00:02:34,855
And, so for example,

52
00:02:36,123 --> 00:02:40,127
the standard way
of shooting a conversation scene

53
00:02:40,194 --> 00:02:41,762
after the transition

54
00:02:41,828 --> 00:02:44,464
was to have all the cameras
lined up in a row

55
00:02:44,531 --> 00:02:46,667
like they are
in the studio right now,

56
00:02:46,733 --> 00:02:49,670
and to switch from one
to the next

57
00:02:49,736 --> 00:02:52,606
and to shoot the scene
simultaneously

58
00:02:52,673 --> 00:02:54,641
from many different angles.

59
00:02:54,708 --> 00:02:57,511
And the reason they had to do
that was that the camera itself

60
00:02:57,578 --> 00:03:00,214
was taking sound,
and cameras make noise.

61
00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,784
So, the camera that was
capturing the sound

62
00:03:03,851 --> 00:03:05,185
was in a booth.

63
00:03:05,252 --> 00:03:07,888
So, all the cameras
were kind of locked in place

64
00:03:07,955 --> 00:03:10,691
and everything had to be taken
at the same time.

65
00:03:10,757 --> 00:03:12,693
Whereas most Hollywood films
before that

66
00:03:12,759 --> 00:03:16,797
were shot with a single camera
and moving around, you know.

67
00:03:16,864 --> 00:03:17,965
That was just something

68
00:03:18,031 --> 00:03:21,935
that was done between 1927
and about 1931.

69
00:03:23,170 --> 00:03:25,072
This was actually
Ford's last film

70
00:03:25,138 --> 00:03:27,241
that was shot
with multiple cameras.

71
00:03:27,307 --> 00:03:31,144
But Ford actually seemed
to like experimenting with that.

72
00:03:31,211 --> 00:03:33,447
It's unbelievable
'cause everybody hated it.

73
00:03:33,514 --> 00:03:37,017
Some directors refused to do it,
but he tried and he,

74
00:03:37,084 --> 00:03:40,153
he tried to move the camera
on a crane in a shot

75
00:03:40,220 --> 00:03:42,723
that took all night to get.

76
00:03:42,789 --> 00:03:44,992
He did a lot of wild things.

77
00:03:45,058 --> 00:03:47,995
He was just trying things out.

78
00:03:48,061 --> 00:03:50,297
And, but one thing he did

79
00:03:50,764 --> 00:03:53,634
that worked very well
in this film and that I admire,

80
00:03:53,700 --> 00:03:58,038
was to shoot the scene
with a single camera for picture

81
00:03:58,105 --> 00:04:00,340
and a single camera for sound,

82
00:04:00,407 --> 00:04:05,245
and to have a static camera and
the actors move around the set

83
00:04:05,312 --> 00:04:07,247
in a very long take.

84
00:04:07,314 --> 00:04:10,751
So, the actors had to keep
their wits about them

85
00:04:10,817 --> 00:04:13,086
because they weren't,
like, saying one line

86
00:04:13,153 --> 00:04:16,423
and then cut,
and then another line, cut.

87
00:04:16,490 --> 00:04:20,861
They had to conduct
the scene kind of like live TV,

88
00:04:20,928 --> 00:04:24,431
you know,
with this one camera on them.

89
00:04:24,498 --> 00:04:27,634
And they had to be
very careful to stay on camera

90
00:04:27,701 --> 00:04:31,205
'cause it's very easy
to get off the frame.

91
00:04:31,271 --> 00:04:33,040
And they had to make their mark.

92
00:04:33,106 --> 00:04:35,475
And Ford was one
of a number of directors

93
00:04:35,542 --> 00:04:38,545
who tried this technique
during the transition

94
00:04:38,612 --> 00:04:41,014
as an alternative
to multiple camera shooting.

95
00:04:41,081 --> 00:04:44,218
Lubitsch, Ernst Lubitsch did so.

96
00:04:45,719 --> 00:04:46,987
A lot of directors.

97
00:04:47,054 --> 00:04:48,322
John Stahl.

98
00:04:48,388 --> 00:04:51,058
They tried this
because it was--

99
00:04:51,124 --> 00:04:54,061
It allowed them
to have actors move in depth

100
00:04:54,127 --> 00:04:57,164
with much more fluidity.
- Just more space.

101
00:04:57,231 --> 00:04:59,199
- Yeah, they had more space,
yeah.

102
00:04:59,266 --> 00:05:02,069
- It's interesting because,
not to digress too much,

103
00:05:02,135 --> 00:05:06,640
but as we get into some later
films, the takes are so short.

104
00:05:06,707 --> 00:05:11,211
You know, three seconds is
not unusual length for a shot

105
00:05:11,278 --> 00:05:15,315
and a scene,
and to have a very long scene

106
00:05:15,382 --> 00:05:17,851
where the camera
is following action.

107
00:05:17,918 --> 00:05:20,554
More unusual now maybe
than it was in 1930.

108
00:05:20,621 --> 00:05:23,290
- Very unusual,
I mean, there are exceptions.

109
00:05:23,357 --> 00:05:25,192
There are directors,
like Christopher Nolan,

110
00:05:25,259 --> 00:05:27,828
that will have a long take
and like,

111
00:05:27,895 --> 00:05:29,496
like to experiment with it.

112
00:05:29,563 --> 00:05:31,231
But most...

113
00:05:32,599 --> 00:05:37,804
But most people are used to
a very, very fast cutting style,

114
00:05:37,871 --> 00:05:41,275
two to three seconds now,
and would be maybe bored.

115
00:05:41,341 --> 00:05:42,609
But there's...

116
00:05:42,676 --> 00:05:45,112
An actor, on the other hand,

117
00:05:45,179 --> 00:05:49,216
can develop a scene
much more effectively

118
00:05:49,283 --> 00:05:50,784
if the take is long.

119
00:05:50,851 --> 00:05:54,755
An actor can build to that,
can build to a moment

120
00:05:54,821 --> 00:05:57,324
where they move towards
the camera all of a sudden,

121
00:05:57,391 --> 00:05:59,927
or where they sit down
in despair,

122
00:05:59,993 --> 00:06:01,662
or whatever they're doing.

123
00:06:01,728 --> 00:06:04,498
If they have that continuity
of performance,

124
00:06:04,565 --> 00:06:07,801
it makes for much more
effective, I think, acting.

125
00:06:07,868 --> 00:06:10,204
- One of the things
we hear about from time to time

126
00:06:10,270 --> 00:06:12,039
also is backlighting.

127
00:06:12,105 --> 00:06:14,408
He used that,
and how did he use it?

128
00:06:14,474 --> 00:06:18,412
- Well, he was-- He was a
lighting freak. [laughs]

129
00:06:18,478 --> 00:06:20,280
In fact, he says in an interview

130
00:06:20,347 --> 00:06:23,483
that one of the things
he's proudest of,

131
00:06:23,550 --> 00:06:26,420
and Ford very rarely was
honest in interviews.

132
00:06:26,486 --> 00:06:29,723
He was often making up stories
that were amusing

133
00:06:29,790 --> 00:06:31,758
rather than actually saying
what he did.

134
00:06:31,825 --> 00:06:33,594
- Well, it's all a showbiz.
- [laughs] Yeah.

135
00:06:33,660 --> 00:06:36,363
But he said one of the things
he was proudest of

136
00:06:36,430 --> 00:06:39,800
was that he could build
his scenes around a point

137
00:06:39,867 --> 00:06:41,768
of light and shadow,

138
00:06:42,469 --> 00:06:46,907
and he could plot
the points where the light,

139
00:06:46,974 --> 00:06:51,345
the highlights hit and the
points where the shadows hit.

140
00:06:51,411 --> 00:06:55,549
And he was very,
very close to his cameramen.

141
00:06:55,616 --> 00:06:57,384
He tried to always work

142
00:06:57,451 --> 00:07:00,087
with a very small number
of cameramen.

143
00:07:00,153 --> 00:07:04,358
So, he didn't have his usual
cameramen on <i>Arrowsmith,</i>

144
00:07:04,424 --> 00:07:06,093
but he did have--

145
00:07:07,394 --> 00:07:10,631
Most of the other films
that he made in the '30s

146
00:07:10,697 --> 00:07:15,402
were shot by either Joe August,
or in the early '30s,

147
00:07:15,469 --> 00:07:18,205
Joe August or
George Schneiderman.

148
00:07:18,272 --> 00:07:22,643
And then in the late '30s,
after Schneiderman retired,

149
00:07:22,709 --> 00:07:27,447
he was working with Gregg Toland
of <i>Citizen Kane</i> fame,

150
00:07:27,514 --> 00:07:28,615
and Bert Glennon,

151
00:07:28,682 --> 00:07:30,951
who's my personal favorite
of his cameramen.

152
00:07:31,018 --> 00:07:33,187
But he was very, very--

153
00:07:33,253 --> 00:07:35,322
He worked very, very closely
with them,

154
00:07:35,389 --> 00:07:37,824
and I don't think he
would tell them what to do,

155
00:07:37,891 --> 00:07:39,626
like, "Put your lights there."

156
00:07:39,693 --> 00:07:43,230
But he would say,
"I want a highlight here,

157
00:07:43,297 --> 00:07:45,299
I want a shadow here."

158
00:07:45,599 --> 00:07:47,134
And I think that's
how he worked.

159
00:07:47,201 --> 00:07:49,303
Now, this is just
from watching a lot of movies

160
00:07:49,369 --> 00:07:52,806
'cause we don't really know,
but it's one of the things

161
00:07:52,873 --> 00:07:55,976
I feel like I understand
how he thinks.

162
00:07:56,043 --> 00:08:01,615
- In this backlighting process,
he actually has the camera...

163
00:08:01,682 --> 00:08:03,584
Opposite of where you
would usually have it.

164
00:08:03,650 --> 00:08:08,021
- Well, yeah, the light is
behind the actor and there's,

165
00:08:08,088 --> 00:08:11,325
it's usual to have
a little bit of backlighting

166
00:08:11,391 --> 00:08:14,595
to make the figure stand out
from the,

167
00:08:14,661 --> 00:08:15,929
stand out from the background.

168
00:08:15,996 --> 00:08:19,566
But Ford would often have
the backlight

169
00:08:19,633 --> 00:08:20,801
be the principal light.

170
00:08:20,868 --> 00:08:25,005
So, in this slide from
<i>Arrowsmith,</i> you can see

171
00:08:25,072 --> 00:08:29,243
that there's a
very strong point of light

172
00:08:29,309 --> 00:08:32,112
at the back of the set
and a dark foreground.

173
00:08:32,179 --> 00:08:35,382
He very much liked
that contrast.

174
00:08:35,449 --> 00:08:39,686
It gives you a stronger sense
of depth and it's very dramatic.

175
00:08:39,753 --> 00:08:42,623
So, yeah,
it was one of his specialties

176
00:08:42,689 --> 00:08:46,326
was putting the light
at the back of the set, and...

177
00:08:46,393 --> 00:08:48,495
But sometimes
it would be to the side,

178
00:08:48,562 --> 00:08:51,331
but setting up a dark,
dark, dark foreground.

179
00:08:51,398 --> 00:08:52,499
He liked that.

180
00:08:52,566 --> 00:08:54,368
That was his style.

181
00:08:54,768 --> 00:08:56,503
- Well, let's skip forward,

182
00:08:56,570 --> 00:08:58,605
and we're not gonna leave
that topic entirely,

183
00:08:58,672 --> 00:09:00,207
I'm guessing, with John Ford,
[Lea laughs]

184
00:09:00,274 --> 00:09:04,912
but we'll skip forward from 1931
to about 1939

185
00:09:04,978 --> 00:09:06,980
and <i>Stagecoach.</i>
- Yeah.

186
00:09:07,047 --> 00:09:10,817
- Norman: Now here, and I know
he's done some of this before,

187
00:09:10,884 --> 00:09:12,386
but probably not to the extent

188
00:09:12,452 --> 00:09:15,956
where he's shooting outdoors
with a panoramic view

189
00:09:16,023 --> 00:09:18,325
that you get in <i>Stagecoach.</i>

190
00:09:18,392 --> 00:09:24,131
He's gonna obviously have a
mix of close-ups and long shots,

191
00:09:24,198 --> 00:09:26,266
and then some shots
that are yeah, they're outdoors,

192
00:09:26,333 --> 00:09:27,835
but they're still close-ups.

193
00:09:27,901 --> 00:09:29,236
How did he finesse all of that

194
00:09:29,303 --> 00:09:32,906
to make it look like a smooth
transition from one to the next?

195
00:09:32,973 --> 00:09:36,877
- Lea: So, <i>Stagecoach</i> was shot
on location

196
00:09:37,477 --> 00:09:38,812
in a number of places,

197
00:09:38,879 --> 00:09:41,515
but most famously
in Monument Valley.

198
00:09:41,582 --> 00:09:45,185
It's the first film that
Ford made in Monument Valley,

199
00:09:45,252 --> 00:09:49,590
and it's a film that introduced
him to that spot in the planet,

200
00:09:49,656 --> 00:09:53,260
and he went back there many,
many times subsequently

201
00:09:53,327 --> 00:09:58,131
to shoot Westerns at the
later part of his career.

202
00:09:59,666 --> 00:10:04,705
But at the time that he was
making <i>Stagecoach</i> in 1939,

203
00:10:04,771 --> 00:10:06,773
he was, at that point,

204
00:10:07,374 --> 00:10:11,078
the studios were
not very interested

205
00:10:11,144 --> 00:10:14,248
in sending a whole company
on location.

206
00:10:14,314 --> 00:10:15,682
Like he--

207
00:10:15,749 --> 00:10:19,553
The studio would not have sent
all the stars of <i>Stagecoach,</i>

208
00:10:19,620 --> 00:10:22,890
their hairdressers,
their wardrobe people--

209
00:10:22,956 --> 00:10:24,858
- Norman: The caterers.
- The caterers, right,

210
00:10:24,925 --> 00:10:28,662
to send all those people
to Monument Valley especially,

211
00:10:28,729 --> 00:10:31,465
which was basically
wilderness then,

212
00:10:31,532 --> 00:10:35,369
or it was a reservation,
but it was, you know,

213
00:10:35,435 --> 00:10:39,673
there wasn't accommodation
for 150 people,

214
00:10:39,740 --> 00:10:42,776
which you would need
for a major Hollywood film.

215
00:10:42,843 --> 00:10:45,412
So, the way Ford had to work

216
00:10:45,479 --> 00:10:48,615
and other directors had to work
this way too, at the time,

217
00:10:48,682 --> 00:10:52,486
was to, usually there was
what was called a second unit

218
00:10:52,553 --> 00:10:56,290
that went on location
and shot the, you know,

219
00:10:56,356 --> 00:11:00,661
the waterfalls, the terrain,
the volcanoes,

220
00:11:00,727 --> 00:11:02,129
whatever they were shooting.

221
00:11:02,196 --> 00:11:05,132
And then they would,
in the studio,

222
00:11:05,199 --> 00:11:07,901
they would shoot what was
called principal photography.

223
00:11:07,968 --> 00:11:09,736
That is with the stars.

224
00:11:09,803 --> 00:11:11,772
So, you get this situation

225
00:11:11,839 --> 00:11:15,309
where you have famous actors
talking in close-up

226
00:11:15,375 --> 00:11:17,511
with back projection,

227
00:11:17,578 --> 00:11:20,647
which showed the landscape
behind them.

228
00:11:20,714 --> 00:11:23,851
So, so the way
that was done is you,

229
00:11:25,519 --> 00:11:26,687
it's called rear projection.

230
00:11:26,753 --> 00:11:28,088
You have a screen,

231
00:11:28,155 --> 00:11:29,756
the projector is
behind the screen

232
00:11:29,823 --> 00:11:32,626
projecting a view
of the landscape.

233
00:11:32,693 --> 00:11:37,164
And then the actors are filmed
in front of that screen

234
00:11:37,231 --> 00:11:42,069
and they're shown basically from
the waist up or the knees up,

235
00:11:42,135 --> 00:11:44,805
because they're
not actually in the landscape.

236
00:11:44,872 --> 00:11:47,441
You might say
the landscape is a background.

237
00:11:47,508 --> 00:11:50,677
Like on the stage,
it would be a painted backdrop.

238
00:11:50,744 --> 00:11:52,946
Now we have
a photographic backdrop,

239
00:11:53,013 --> 00:11:54,414
and there'd be a conversation.

240
00:11:54,481 --> 00:11:57,784
So, you don't have to have your
actors in a dangerous situation,

241
00:11:57,851 --> 00:12:00,320
like on a whitewater raft.

242
00:12:01,021 --> 00:12:03,891
You don't have to have
your actors

243
00:12:03,957 --> 00:12:07,327
staying out there for months,
which is very expensive.

244
00:12:07,394 --> 00:12:09,363
- Sometimes dangerous too.
- Yeah, yeah.

245
00:12:09,429 --> 00:12:11,031
And uncomfortable.

246
00:12:11,098 --> 00:12:14,434
So, the thing that was
interesting about <i>Stagecoach</i>

247
00:12:14,501 --> 00:12:17,304
was that Ford didn't have
a second unit.

248
00:12:17,371 --> 00:12:20,307
That is, he went out
to Monument Valley

249
00:12:20,374 --> 00:12:22,075
with his principal cameraman,

250
00:12:22,142 --> 00:12:24,178
who was Bert Glennon,
my favorite,

251
00:12:24,244 --> 00:12:28,482
and with some extras
who he needed to do, like,

252
00:12:30,517 --> 00:12:33,554
the cavalry riding
through the valley, you know,

253
00:12:33,620 --> 00:12:35,622
those kinds of shots.

254
00:12:35,923 --> 00:12:40,928
And so, you get these
beautiful shots composed by Ford

255
00:12:42,062 --> 00:12:45,098
and shot by Bert Glennon
of the landscape.

256
00:12:45,165 --> 00:12:48,335
But then, when they have to add
in the principal actors,

257
00:12:48,402 --> 00:12:49,603
they're using back projection.

258
00:12:49,670 --> 00:12:52,639
And that doesn't look as good,
to say the least.

259
00:12:52,706 --> 00:12:54,374
- Norman: Even in 1939,
not convincing?

260
00:12:54,441 --> 00:12:56,443
- Yeah, I mean, now, of course,

261
00:12:56,510 --> 00:12:59,413
with image compositing,
digital image compositing,

262
00:12:59,479 --> 00:13:01,782
you can have as many layers
of the image

263
00:13:01,849 --> 00:13:04,318
as you want,
and it doesn't matter.

264
00:13:04,384 --> 00:13:07,387
You can shoot things with
a blue screen or a green screen

265
00:13:07,454 --> 00:13:11,291
as they're called, and then
add in all kinds of background,

266
00:13:11,358 --> 00:13:14,261
Mars, whatever you want,
and you can't tell,

267
00:13:14,328 --> 00:13:17,464
but you can tell in
<i>Stagecoach,</i> you know.

268
00:13:17,531 --> 00:13:19,233
- Some better than others,

269
00:13:19,299 --> 00:13:23,537
but when you're seeing close-up
of the stagecoach in motion,

270
00:13:23,604 --> 00:13:26,673
I think even in 1939,
it's like, "Oh, wait a minute.

271
00:13:26,740 --> 00:13:29,676
Not suspending my disbelief
here."

272
00:13:29,743 --> 00:13:31,778
Just for a few seconds,
but still.

273
00:13:31,845 --> 00:13:35,215
- Yeah, and also, the
backgrounds are out of focus.

274
00:13:35,282 --> 00:13:38,886
You're rephotographing
an image that's being projected.

275
00:13:38,952 --> 00:13:41,455
So, think about
the actual image size.

276
00:13:41,522 --> 00:13:43,023
It's about one inch by one inch.

277
00:13:43,090 --> 00:13:45,559
The negative that
that image is coming from,

278
00:13:45,626 --> 00:13:49,863
then it's being projected big,
and it's designed to be,

279
00:13:49,930 --> 00:13:51,765
so with a good projector
and all that,

280
00:13:51,832 --> 00:13:54,034
but then you're
rephotographing it.

281
00:13:54,101 --> 00:13:55,669
It's gonna be fuzzy.

282
00:13:55,736 --> 00:13:57,271
And you can see that
in <i>Stagecoach</i>

283
00:13:57,337 --> 00:13:59,706
when you see the shots
that were taken

284
00:13:59,773 --> 00:14:01,775
with the stagecoach
in the valley

285
00:14:01,842 --> 00:14:05,445
and the rock formations in the
background versus the ones

286
00:14:05,512 --> 00:14:06,780
which are done with,

287
00:14:06,847 --> 00:14:08,549
you know,
somebody talking in close-up

288
00:14:08,615 --> 00:14:12,352
and the background is
completely out of focus.

289
00:14:12,419 --> 00:14:16,323
- Well, speaking of focus,
right around this time,

290
00:14:16,390 --> 00:14:20,627
1939, '40, '41,
something called deep focus.

291
00:14:21,228 --> 00:14:23,163
I don't know if it
came into vogue exactly,

292
00:14:23,230 --> 00:14:24,898
but it started getting
attention.

293
00:14:24,965 --> 00:14:27,734
- Right.
- Famously in <i>Citizen Kane.</i>

294
00:14:27,801 --> 00:14:29,636
- Most famously, yeah.

295
00:14:29,703 --> 00:14:35,042
So, what happened was that,
I mean, film stock at the time,

296
00:14:36,410 --> 00:14:38,612
of course, now we don't have
film stock anymore.

297
00:14:38,679 --> 00:14:41,648
But at the time,
film stock was always--

298
00:14:41,715 --> 00:14:43,584
Kodak and the other
manufacturers

299
00:14:43,650 --> 00:14:46,753
were always experimenting
with film stocks

300
00:14:46,820 --> 00:14:48,655
and improving them.

301
00:14:48,722 --> 00:14:49,823
And one of the things

302
00:14:49,890 --> 00:14:51,925
that happens across
the course of the '30s

303
00:14:51,992 --> 00:14:55,462
is they make them more and more
and more sensitive to light.

304
00:14:55,529 --> 00:15:00,100
If you have a very sensitive
film stock, you can do more.

305
00:15:00,167 --> 00:15:02,035
You can shoot darker scenes.

306
00:15:02,102 --> 00:15:04,538
You don't need to put
as much light on the set.

307
00:15:04,605 --> 00:15:06,540
And you can also do things
with the camera

308
00:15:06,607 --> 00:15:10,143
that makes it possible
to improve the focal depth.

309
00:15:10,210 --> 00:15:12,579
So, deep focus is really

310
00:15:12,646 --> 00:15:15,649
the stock that permits
the very deep focus

311
00:15:15,716 --> 00:15:18,352
that we associate
with <i>Citizen Kane</i>

312
00:15:18,418 --> 00:15:22,222
was first introduced
in the fall of 1939,

313
00:15:23,123 --> 00:15:26,460
which is when Ford made
<i>Stagecoach.</i>

314
00:15:27,761 --> 00:15:29,997
Sorry, the fall of 1938.

315
00:15:30,497 --> 00:15:32,499
He didn't know what
he could do with it.

316
00:15:32,566 --> 00:15:35,936
He was experimenting, as I was
saying, just like with sound.

317
00:15:36,003 --> 00:15:37,437
He was trying to do stuff.

318
00:15:37,504 --> 00:15:40,174
And you see this
not so much in the exteriors,

319
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,744
'cause they didn't have those
kind of focal depth problems

320
00:15:43,810 --> 00:15:45,612
in exteriors
where there's lots of light.

321
00:15:45,679 --> 00:15:48,148
Sun is a very powerful
light source,

322
00:15:48,215 --> 00:15:53,887
but when they're shooting in
the studio on set and they can,

323
00:15:53,954 --> 00:15:58,192
they can really, they can get
this enormous depth of field

324
00:15:58,258 --> 00:16:01,261
so you can get people moving
into depth.

325
00:16:01,328 --> 00:16:04,898
You can get very,
very precise control

326
00:16:06,967 --> 00:16:11,004
over the very tiny figures
at the back of the shot.

327
00:16:11,071 --> 00:16:14,741
So, in the scene where Dallas
comes out holding Lucy's baby.

328
00:16:14,808 --> 00:16:16,343
- Norman: At the back
of the room.

329
00:16:16,410 --> 00:16:18,212
- Lea: She's at the back
of the room.

330
00:16:18,278 --> 00:16:20,514
And at first,
she's even in the dark.

331
00:16:20,581 --> 00:16:22,783
You just see a halo
around her head

332
00:16:22,850 --> 00:16:24,885
because she's backlit,
of course,

333
00:16:24,952 --> 00:16:29,990
and you could see her shadow
on the door as it opens.

334
00:16:30,057 --> 00:16:32,159
And there's all this action
in the foreground,

335
00:16:32,226 --> 00:16:34,728
but she's the focal point,

336
00:16:34,795 --> 00:16:37,865
and she comes not very far
into close-up.

337
00:16:37,931 --> 00:16:40,234
I mean, she's still
quite far from camera,

338
00:16:40,300 --> 00:16:43,804
but even so,
every detail is evident.

339
00:16:43,871 --> 00:16:46,340
And it's a very
magical moment.

340
00:16:46,406 --> 00:16:48,442
And it couldn't have
been shot that way

341
00:16:48,509 --> 00:16:50,811
unless they had deep focus.

342
00:16:50,878 --> 00:16:53,013
- Norman: It's interesting what
he's doing in this scene too,

343
00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,550
with the gambler, the hat.
- Lea: Yeah.

344
00:16:56,617 --> 00:16:59,786
- Norman: It's so bright that
it draws attention to itself.

345
00:16:59,853 --> 00:17:02,155
But then it also points over
to Claire Trevor, doesn't it?

346
00:17:02,222 --> 00:17:03,323
- Lea: Yes, right.

347
00:17:03,390 --> 00:17:05,425
And, of course,
if you look at John Wayne,

348
00:17:05,492 --> 00:17:07,427
he was actually,
at the beginning of the shot,

349
00:17:07,494 --> 00:17:09,596
he was actually blocking her.

350
00:17:09,663 --> 00:17:12,799
So, the door opens
and then he turns to look,

351
00:17:12,866 --> 00:17:14,501
and that turning of his face

352
00:17:14,568 --> 00:17:16,637
reveals her coming out
of the door.

353
00:17:16,703 --> 00:17:19,907
So, it's very precisely blocked.

354
00:17:19,973 --> 00:17:22,709
- And this shot is
fascinating too,

355
00:17:22,776 --> 00:17:26,680
where she's coming out
of a very tight frame there

356
00:17:26,747 --> 00:17:29,283
of that doorway in darkness,

357
00:17:29,349 --> 00:17:34,655
and then becomes increasingly
defined, in part by her dress.

358
00:17:34,721 --> 00:17:36,757
- Lea: Right,
that shot is amazing to me.

359
00:17:36,823 --> 00:17:39,593
I don't think I've seen
a shot before that

360
00:17:39,660 --> 00:17:42,462
where you have such
a dark foreground

361
00:17:42,529 --> 00:17:44,998
and you have a light source
that's illuminating her

362
00:17:45,065 --> 00:17:46,900
when she gets outside the door,

363
00:17:46,967 --> 00:17:50,070
'cause you can see before that,
she's silhouetted,

364
00:17:50,137 --> 00:17:51,405
but she gets outside the door.

365
00:17:51,471 --> 00:17:55,342
We can see every detail
of her dress in focus.

366
00:17:55,409 --> 00:17:58,078
And this is a turning point
in the story,

367
00:17:58,145 --> 00:18:01,748
because this is after Dallas
has helped Lucy give birth.

368
00:18:01,815 --> 00:18:05,586
And it's a kind of
spiritual rebirth for her too.

369
00:18:05,652 --> 00:18:07,888
And this shot kind of
celebrates that

370
00:18:07,955 --> 00:18:10,123
in the movement
from darkness to light.

371
00:18:10,190 --> 00:18:12,526
So, it's just spectacular.

372
00:18:12,593 --> 00:18:14,728
Very nice use of depth.

373
00:18:15,162 --> 00:18:18,298
- And the use of light
by John Ford,

374
00:18:19,266 --> 00:18:23,103
setting the scene
with even a single image,

375
00:18:23,170 --> 00:18:25,606
he can kind of establish the
nature of the character,

376
00:18:25,672 --> 00:18:26,874
can't he?

377
00:18:26,940 --> 00:18:29,543
I'm thinking of Henry Fonda
in <i>Young Mr. Lincoln.</i>

378
00:18:29,610 --> 00:18:33,313
All it needs is one shot
of the young Lincoln,

379
00:18:33,380 --> 00:18:36,250
played by Henry Fonda,
who actually

380
00:18:36,316 --> 00:18:37,451
may be a little too handsome

381
00:18:37,518 --> 00:18:39,219
for the part. [both laugh]
- Lea: Yeah.

382
00:18:39,286 --> 00:18:41,889
- Norman: But can be modified
enough to look very convincingly

383
00:18:41,955 --> 00:18:44,391
like a young Abraham Lincoln.
- Lea: Yeah.

384
00:18:44,458 --> 00:18:46,226
Supposedly,
Henry Fonda was frightened

385
00:18:46,293 --> 00:18:49,730
when he saw the screen tests
of him in makeup.

386
00:18:49,796 --> 00:18:51,064
It was too uncanny.

387
00:18:51,131 --> 00:18:53,734
And he was like, "Well,
I don't know if I can do this."

388
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:55,469
Ford talked him into it.

389
00:18:55,536 --> 00:18:57,204
But yeah,

390
00:18:57,538 --> 00:19:02,142
so this image we're looking at
is Henry Fonda on location

391
00:19:02,209 --> 00:19:04,745
where they shot the scene
with Ann Rutledge.

392
00:19:04,811 --> 00:19:08,048
I think that tree is one
that figures in the film.

393
00:19:08,115 --> 00:19:09,716
And you can see
the huge reflectors

394
00:19:09,783 --> 00:19:15,155
that they use to bounce light
onto Henry Fonda's face

395
00:19:15,222 --> 00:19:16,957
when he gets into the shot.

396
00:19:17,024 --> 00:19:19,326
He's off camera here,
which is one of the nice things.

397
00:19:19,393 --> 00:19:23,630
It looks to me like Lincoln
is just relaxing by the river.

398
00:19:23,697 --> 00:19:25,832
- He's folksy.
- Yeah, yeah.

399
00:19:25,899 --> 00:19:28,702
- But they did do
a little bit of, like,

400
00:19:28,769 --> 00:19:30,771
rebuilding of Henry Fonda's face

401
00:19:30,838 --> 00:19:32,573
to be a little more Lincolnesque
with the nose.

402
00:19:32,639 --> 00:19:34,308
- Lea: They did, yes,
and the chin.

403
00:19:34,374 --> 00:19:38,078
I think they changed
the chin a little bit too.

404
00:19:38,145 --> 00:19:40,447
- Did John Ford experiment
with makeup at all?

405
00:19:40,514 --> 00:19:42,049
Because it seemed to me
that, you know,

406
00:19:42,115 --> 00:19:43,217
the technology for makeup

407
00:19:43,283 --> 00:19:44,751
would be improving too,
over the years.

408
00:19:44,818 --> 00:19:48,155
- Yeah,
I think he left that to staff.

409
00:19:48,956 --> 00:19:51,925
I know that at least in the case
of the Lincoln makeup,

410
00:19:51,992 --> 00:19:53,660
those screen tests were done

411
00:19:53,727 --> 00:19:56,463
while he was still shooting
<i>Stagecoach.</i>

412
00:19:56,530 --> 00:19:58,599
So, he was away from the studio.

413
00:19:58,665 --> 00:20:02,302
So, it's a factory system
of production.

414
00:20:02,369 --> 00:20:03,504
And that's one of the things

415
00:20:03,570 --> 00:20:05,672
that brings us back
to that question

416
00:20:05,739 --> 00:20:09,409
of how much control does
the director have?

417
00:20:09,476 --> 00:20:11,078
You have a whole system.

418
00:20:11,144 --> 00:20:14,648
It's not just that there's a
producer that's running things,

419
00:20:14,715 --> 00:20:18,619
although there is a boss,
and it wasn't Ford always.

420
00:20:18,685 --> 00:20:21,388
But also that there's all these

421
00:20:21,455 --> 00:20:23,690
what they call
below-the-line people

422
00:20:23,757 --> 00:20:28,495
who are making up Henry Fonda,
helping decide his costume,

423
00:20:28,562 --> 00:20:29,796
all that kind of stuff.

424
00:20:29,863 --> 00:20:32,533
Now, I do know, 'cause
there are many stories about it,

425
00:20:32,599 --> 00:20:36,603
Ford was very particular
about costuming,

426
00:20:37,371 --> 00:20:40,007
and particularly
for the cowboys, his cowboys.

427
00:20:40,073 --> 00:20:43,777
He didn't want them to look,
like, too duded up.

428
00:20:43,844 --> 00:20:47,014
So, he would tell them,
"Bring three old hats."

429
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:51,285
You know, he would tell them,
"Just find a hat," you know,

430
00:20:51,351 --> 00:20:54,087
and he would want them to look--
- Something lived in.

431
00:20:54,154 --> 00:20:55,722
- Yeah, yeah, same with boots.

432
00:20:55,789 --> 00:20:58,258
He was very particular
about boots.

433
00:20:58,325 --> 00:21:00,561
So, he did think
about clothes a lot,

434
00:21:00,627 --> 00:21:04,865
but I don't know if he
finessed makeup so much.

435
00:21:05,632 --> 00:21:07,401
- Looking at <i>Stagecoach</i>
and to a lesser extent,

436
00:21:07,467 --> 00:21:09,903
something like
<i>Young Mr. Lincoln,</i>

437
00:21:09,970 --> 00:21:11,772
it's fascinating the amount of,

438
00:21:11,839 --> 00:21:14,074
I'm gonna call it
choreography required

439
00:21:14,141 --> 00:21:15,943
or, you know,
blocking in a theatrical sense.

440
00:21:16,009 --> 00:21:19,479
But we're way beyond that when
you're looking at a crowd scene,

441
00:21:19,546 --> 00:21:21,715
for example,
in a John Ford film.

442
00:21:21,782 --> 00:21:23,917
- Lea: Yes, it's amazing.

443
00:21:23,984 --> 00:21:27,821
And that's because the way
the camera frames things,

444
00:21:27,888 --> 00:21:30,424
as opposed to when
you're in a theater,

445
00:21:30,490 --> 00:21:33,861
you have this
very wide foreground.

446
00:21:33,927 --> 00:21:35,863
You can see the whole stage,
right?

447
00:21:35,929 --> 00:21:37,364
Right at the footlights.

448
00:21:37,431 --> 00:21:42,636
But the way a camera works,
there's a very narrow foreground

449
00:21:42,703 --> 00:21:45,839
and it's like a cone,
a light cone.

450
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,209
And so, when you're staging
for the camera,

451
00:21:49,276 --> 00:21:53,447
you have very precise control
over what you can see

452
00:21:53,514 --> 00:21:56,083
in front and back
and back and back.

453
00:21:56,149 --> 00:21:58,352
And that's what he does
in <i>Young Mr. Lincoln</i>

454
00:21:58,418 --> 00:22:02,456
in the trial scene,
is he's very tightly controlling

455
00:22:02,523 --> 00:22:04,758
where the figures are
in the front

456
00:22:04,825 --> 00:22:07,261
and what you can see
behind them.

457
00:22:07,327 --> 00:22:10,430
And it's a tour de force,
that trial scene,

458
00:22:10,497 --> 00:22:15,068
because you can see
Lincoln pursuing the culprit

459
00:22:16,170 --> 00:22:19,506
that he's trying
to get to confess in the trial,

460
00:22:19,573 --> 00:22:21,074
who's played by Ward Bond.

461
00:22:21,141 --> 00:22:23,911
So, they're moving slowly
towards the foreground.

462
00:22:23,977 --> 00:22:28,215
But all around Lincoln you can
see, you see the judge stand up,

463
00:22:28,282 --> 00:22:31,985
you can see the jury stand up
so they can see what's going on

464
00:22:32,052 --> 00:22:33,720
as these characters move
towards us.

465
00:22:33,787 --> 00:22:36,557
You can see
the sheriff circling around.

466
00:22:36,623 --> 00:22:39,426
And then slowly,
the camera tracks back

467
00:22:39,493 --> 00:22:40,994
and you can see the people

468
00:22:41,061 --> 00:22:44,064
who have come to see
the trial moving in

469
00:22:44,131 --> 00:22:45,899
when they realize
that this person

470
00:22:45,966 --> 00:22:49,636
who they thought was their
friend and an innocent guy

471
00:22:49,703 --> 00:22:54,007
was actually the murderer,
when he confesses.

472
00:22:54,074 --> 00:22:58,712
And Ford stages this
so you can see different people

473
00:22:58,779 --> 00:23:00,581
visible at different points.

474
00:23:00,647 --> 00:23:03,851
So, in the middle slide
at the top,

475
00:23:03,917 --> 00:23:06,453
you can see
the prosecuting attorney visible

476
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,856
between Henry Fonda
and Ward Bond.

477
00:23:08,922 --> 00:23:11,458
But later on, you could see
the innocent boy

478
00:23:11,525 --> 00:23:13,760
who was accused in place
of Ward Bond.

479
00:23:13,827 --> 00:23:17,130
And he figures between them
as Henry Fonda,

480
00:23:17,197 --> 00:23:19,766
as Lincoln is saying,
"You did it,

481
00:23:19,833 --> 00:23:22,236
you did it," and you could see
the innocent boy in back.

482
00:23:22,302 --> 00:23:25,806
And then way
at the bottom slide there

483
00:23:25,873 --> 00:23:27,941
you can see
the judge standing,

484
00:23:28,008 --> 00:23:30,711
and you can see an actor
standing next to him very,

485
00:23:30,777 --> 00:23:32,379
very far in the background.

486
00:23:32,446 --> 00:23:35,449
And Henry Fonda has moved
so that we can see that actor,

487
00:23:35,516 --> 00:23:38,685
and that actor is playing
Stephen Douglas,

488
00:23:38,752 --> 00:23:43,056
who we know was Lincoln's
rival for the presidency.

489
00:23:43,123 --> 00:23:45,092
- When we start talking
about history in particular,

490
00:23:45,158 --> 00:23:48,262
but it could apply
to any film usually

491
00:23:48,328 --> 00:23:51,465
or often an adaptation
of a novel.

492
00:23:54,835 --> 00:23:58,005
How much control does the
director have over the story?

493
00:23:58,071 --> 00:23:59,206
Now, in the case of Lincoln,

494
00:23:59,273 --> 00:24:01,408
of course,
yeah, there was a famous trial,

495
00:24:01,475 --> 00:24:04,311
but not much like the one
in the film.

496
00:24:04,378 --> 00:24:05,479
- Right.

497
00:24:05,546 --> 00:24:09,116
- And films of the '30s
and '40s and '50s,

498
00:24:09,183 --> 00:24:14,588
notorious for just running riot
over historical facts.

499
00:24:14,655 --> 00:24:19,026
How does John Ford play in that?
- Yeah, good question.

500
00:24:19,092 --> 00:24:21,795
Well, and it's really
the question

501
00:24:21,862 --> 00:24:23,664
about script development.

502
00:24:23,730 --> 00:24:27,701
Because I always say
there isn't just one script.

503
00:24:27,768 --> 00:24:30,571
There's usually at least
two or three.

504
00:24:30,637 --> 00:24:34,675
And while that script
is being formulated,

505
00:24:34,741 --> 00:24:36,610
a lot of people have input.

506
00:24:36,677 --> 00:24:41,248
For example, the set designer
or the art director

507
00:24:42,049 --> 00:24:44,318
might be called in to say, well,

508
00:24:44,384 --> 00:24:49,556
"Can you build us this kind
of street in Monument Valley?"

509
00:24:49,623 --> 00:24:51,925
You know,
there's all kinds of people

510
00:24:51,992 --> 00:24:54,161
that are giving
technical advice.

511
00:24:54,228 --> 00:24:56,597
There is location shooting
that's,

512
00:24:56,663 --> 00:24:58,031
scouting that's happening.

513
00:24:58,098 --> 00:24:59,833
So, where are we gonna
shoot this?

514
00:24:59,900 --> 00:25:01,935
And that will figure
into the script.

515
00:25:02,002 --> 00:25:04,404
It's a process
of script development.

516
00:25:04,471 --> 00:25:08,909
And the director is often not
involved in the earliest stages

517
00:25:08,976 --> 00:25:10,777
because he's shooting
another film.

518
00:25:10,844 --> 00:25:12,446
It's a factory system.
- Norman: Uh-huh.

519
00:25:12,513 --> 00:25:15,549
- They're not, you know,
they're not just in their study,

520
00:25:15,616 --> 00:25:16,717
like, working on script.

521
00:25:16,783 --> 00:25:18,585
No, they're off...

522
00:25:19,453 --> 00:25:21,121
And so, one of the,

523
00:25:21,488 --> 00:25:25,859
one of Ford's tricks was to have
screenwriters that he trusted.

524
00:25:25,926 --> 00:25:28,662
Now, he couldn't always get them
because a producer knew

525
00:25:28,729 --> 00:25:30,063
that he was doing this.

526
00:25:30,130 --> 00:25:33,367
But Dudley Nichols
and Lamar Trotti,

527
00:25:33,433 --> 00:25:37,271
who wrote many
of his film scripts for Fox,

528
00:25:37,337 --> 00:25:40,507
they were trusted friends
and allies.

529
00:25:40,574 --> 00:25:44,578
Even if he's off on location,
they can talk to him, right?

530
00:25:44,645 --> 00:25:46,380
So, they're telegraphing
back and forth,

531
00:25:46,446 --> 00:25:50,851
and thank goodness it's
not email because I have those

532
00:25:50,918 --> 00:25:54,154
so I can see, you know,
what they're talking about.

533
00:25:54,221 --> 00:25:58,926
And I can see what's going into
that script development process.

534
00:25:58,992 --> 00:26:01,995
In the case
of <i>Young Mr. Lincoln,</i>

535
00:26:02,930 --> 00:26:06,633
it was basically
a pet project of Lamar Trotti

536
00:26:06,700 --> 00:26:11,004
based on another film
that he had written for Ford,

537
00:26:11,071 --> 00:26:13,040
which had a trial scene.

538
00:26:13,106 --> 00:26:17,711
And so, even though he didn't
necessarily, to my knowledge,

539
00:26:17,778 --> 00:26:20,480
talk to Ford about it,
at least we have no record

540
00:26:20,547 --> 00:26:21,982
of that conversation,

541
00:26:22,049 --> 00:26:25,652
he was taking things
that Ford had done before

542
00:26:25,719 --> 00:26:27,287
that he knew Ford liked,

543
00:26:27,354 --> 00:26:29,723
and putting them
in a new spin on them,

544
00:26:29,790 --> 00:26:31,658
because now it's Lincoln.

545
00:26:31,725 --> 00:26:34,862
You know, that is how Ford
himself

546
00:26:36,196 --> 00:26:39,299
often was able to affect
script development

547
00:26:39,366 --> 00:26:41,568
'cause he often
couldn't control.

548
00:26:41,635 --> 00:26:43,370
Now, that's different
in <i>Stagecoach</i>

549
00:26:43,437 --> 00:26:45,806
'cause <i>Stagecoach</i>
was his project,

550
00:26:45,873 --> 00:26:48,842
he bought that property,
which was called, um,

551
00:26:48,909 --> 00:26:52,379
<i>Last Stage from...</i>
- Uh, Lordsville.

552
00:26:53,647 --> 00:26:54,748
- Lordsville.

553
00:26:54,815 --> 00:26:56,550
He had--
- Which was based on a story

554
00:26:56,617 --> 00:26:57,718
by Guy de Maupassant,
apparently.

555
00:26:57,784 --> 00:26:59,720
- That's right, it is.
- How strange is that?

556
00:26:59,786 --> 00:27:01,188
- "Boule de Suif," yeah.

557
00:27:01,255 --> 00:27:02,689
But Ford owned that.

558
00:27:02,756 --> 00:27:04,291
He had bought the rights,

559
00:27:04,358 --> 00:27:07,761
and he knew that
he wanted to have John Wayne

560
00:27:07,828 --> 00:27:09,863
and Claire Trevor
in the leading roles.

561
00:27:09,930 --> 00:27:11,532
And the great
Thomas Mitchell,

562
00:27:11,598 --> 00:27:13,901
who's the secret star
of the movie.

563
00:27:13,967 --> 00:27:15,869
So, he knew all that.

564
00:27:16,270 --> 00:27:19,540
And he wouldn't work
with any independent producer

565
00:27:19,606 --> 00:27:20,707
that wouldn't give him that.

566
00:27:20,774 --> 00:27:24,278
So, he walked away
from his negotiations

567
00:27:24,344 --> 00:27:26,947
with David O. Selznick,
'cause Selznick was not about

568
00:27:27,014 --> 00:27:31,451
to let Ford cast that movie
or write the script.

569
00:27:31,518 --> 00:27:34,721
And so, he found a director,
a producer, Walter Wanger,

570
00:27:34,788 --> 00:27:36,590
who would let him
do those things.

571
00:27:36,657 --> 00:27:39,459
So, in that movie, he did
control script development.

572
00:27:39,526 --> 00:27:41,995
But in <i>Young Mr. Lincoln,</i>

573
00:27:42,062 --> 00:27:44,898
I would say
that he had in Lamar Trotti,

574
00:27:44,965 --> 00:27:49,136
a guy who was a complete
stickler for Lincoln lore.

575
00:27:49,203 --> 00:27:51,405
- Norman: Truly?
- He was an amateur historian.

576
00:27:51,471 --> 00:27:55,309
He knew everything, he
had read all the great sources.

577
00:27:55,375 --> 00:27:58,445
And I can go back to
Carl Sandburg's monumental...

578
00:27:58,512 --> 00:28:00,147
- Oh, the famous biography.
- ...biography.

579
00:28:00,214 --> 00:28:03,884
Yeah, and there's,
I mean, little bits,

580
00:28:04,918 --> 00:28:09,122
little lines of dialogue,
tiny little things

581
00:28:09,189 --> 00:28:11,525
are taken from Sandburg.

582
00:28:12,092 --> 00:28:16,463
So, he really knew that book
backwards and forwards.

583
00:28:16,530 --> 00:28:19,466
And the same
with the set design,

584
00:28:19,533 --> 00:28:21,268
which I think is,

585
00:28:21,335 --> 00:28:26,006
it's very beautiful early
American kind of interiors.

586
00:28:26,073 --> 00:28:27,207
- For the interior shots.

587
00:28:27,274 --> 00:28:29,042
They actually went
authentic for that.

588
00:28:29,109 --> 00:28:31,712
- Yeah, and that's definitely
something Ford liked.

589
00:28:31,778 --> 00:28:34,014
He was into interior design,

590
00:28:34,081 --> 00:28:35,983
although he would
never have admitted it

591
00:28:36,049 --> 00:28:39,019
'cause it wasn't his conception
of what a man should be.

592
00:28:39,086 --> 00:28:40,487
But he has a beautiful--
[Norman laughs]

593
00:28:40,554 --> 00:28:42,489
If you look at <i>The Searchers,</i>

594
00:28:42,556 --> 00:28:44,858
this is one of his most
famous films from the '50s.

595
00:28:44,925 --> 00:28:46,460
- Norman: Yeah, sure.
- There's this house

596
00:28:46,527 --> 00:28:49,530
that's in the middle of Texas,
in the wilderness.

597
00:28:49,596 --> 00:28:51,331
- It's like in a desert, though.
- Yes.

598
00:28:51,398 --> 00:28:53,333
- I've never figured out,
so these guys are ranchers,

599
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:58,038
but there's not so much as
a weed within sight for miles.

600
00:28:58,105 --> 00:28:59,840
- It's a desert,
well, that's the whole point.

601
00:28:59,907 --> 00:29:03,377
They have to-- generations
before they can farm, really.

602
00:29:03,443 --> 00:29:05,812
But if you look at that house,

603
00:29:05,879 --> 00:29:09,249
it's got this beautiful
early American pewterware

604
00:29:09,316 --> 00:29:11,552
up on the mantel
of the fireplace

605
00:29:11,618 --> 00:29:13,820
and this gorgeous China.

606
00:29:13,887 --> 00:29:17,791
And yeah, it's beautiful
early American furniture,

607
00:29:17,858 --> 00:29:21,628
which is then often wrecked
in fights and stuff.

608
00:29:21,695 --> 00:29:24,298
- So, knockoffs of beautiful
early American furniture.

609
00:29:24,364 --> 00:29:26,066
- Hopefully.

610
00:29:26,133 --> 00:29:30,170
- So, what are some of the kind
of paths that John Ford took

611
00:29:30,237 --> 00:29:33,907
from inception
to completion of a film?

612
00:29:35,075 --> 00:29:36,677
I mean, who came up
with the idea

613
00:29:36,743 --> 00:29:38,178
and said, in some cases,

614
00:29:38,245 --> 00:29:41,181
"Well, oh, here's a great story
that I just read.

615
00:29:41,248 --> 00:29:43,317
Let's see
if we can turn it into a film."

616
00:29:43,383 --> 00:29:46,019
Who's gonna do the casting?
- Yeah.

617
00:29:46,086 --> 00:29:48,522
There's so much variety,

618
00:29:48,589 --> 00:29:50,324
especially for somebody
like Ford,

619
00:29:50,390 --> 00:29:54,161
because although he had a
contract with 20th Century Fox,

620
00:29:54,228 --> 00:29:57,798
in the 1930s,
he also could freelance.

621
00:29:59,132 --> 00:30:00,634
He could work for other studios.

622
00:30:00,701 --> 00:30:02,569
And that's what he did
when he made <i>Stagecoach.</i>

623
00:30:02,636 --> 00:30:05,739
He didn't make <i>Stagecoach</i>
at 20th Century Fox.

624
00:30:05,806 --> 00:30:09,977
He made that at United Artists
with a producer, Walter Wanger,

625
00:30:10,043 --> 00:30:11,512
who gave him his head.

626
00:30:11,578 --> 00:30:13,480
When he's at 20th Century Fox,

627
00:30:13,547 --> 00:30:16,984
he has to convince his producer,
Darryl F. Zanuck,

628
00:30:17,050 --> 00:30:18,485
to let him do stuff.

629
00:30:18,552 --> 00:30:21,989
So, that's a little bit
different, you know, situation,

630
00:30:22,055 --> 00:30:25,092
because Zanuck usually
came up with story ideas.

631
00:30:25,158 --> 00:30:27,828
He didn't like his directors
coming up with story ideas.

632
00:30:27,895 --> 00:30:30,030
Zanuck was a great story editor,

633
00:30:30,097 --> 00:30:34,701
and he would basically
often come up with an idea

634
00:30:34,768 --> 00:30:37,905
or find a property,
buy that property,

635
00:30:37,971 --> 00:30:41,842
and then start several
screenwriting teams to work

636
00:30:41,909 --> 00:30:43,010
to adapt it.

637
00:30:43,076 --> 00:30:46,880
And then Ford would be
brought in for the,

638
00:30:47,414 --> 00:30:49,016
not the very final script,

639
00:30:49,082 --> 00:30:51,552
but the second to the last
or the third to the last.

640
00:30:51,618 --> 00:30:54,154
There could be many drafts
with Zanuck.

641
00:30:54,221 --> 00:30:56,089
And then he would have input.

642
00:30:56,156 --> 00:30:59,226
He would say, "Well,
I've been out to location."

643
00:30:59,293 --> 00:31:00,627
Like, he would go out
to location

644
00:31:00,694 --> 00:31:02,362
'cause he was that kind
of a guy.

645
00:31:02,429 --> 00:31:04,765
And he would say,
"You know, we've got this great,

646
00:31:04,831 --> 00:31:07,100
you know, we've got this
great cliff here."

647
00:31:07,167 --> 00:31:09,636
- [laughs] Somehow I knew
you were gonna say that.

648
00:31:09,703 --> 00:31:13,974
- Yeah, and so he would convince
Zanuck that they should,

649
00:31:14,041 --> 00:31:15,709
you know, change things around.

650
00:31:15,776 --> 00:31:18,378
- Adapt the script
to the landscape or...

651
00:31:18,445 --> 00:31:22,482
- Yeah, so I would say when he's
working at 20th Century Fox,

652
00:31:22,549 --> 00:31:24,952
he's "improving" the script.

653
00:31:25,018 --> 00:31:27,154
And that was his job, I think.

654
00:31:27,221 --> 00:31:30,123
I think Zanuck expected him
to improve the script.

655
00:31:30,190 --> 00:31:33,560
He wouldn't have been paying
Ford top dollar as a director

656
00:31:33,627 --> 00:31:36,096
if he didn't think
Ford could improve the script.

657
00:31:36,163 --> 00:31:38,365
But Zanuck kept control
at that level,

658
00:31:38,432 --> 00:31:40,868
and Zanuck also was
very involved

659
00:31:40,934 --> 00:31:43,837
in post-production and editing.

660
00:31:43,904 --> 00:31:47,908
So, Ford would famously try
to finesse that

661
00:31:48,509 --> 00:31:51,745
by only giving Zanuck
so much footage.

662
00:31:51,812 --> 00:31:54,381
He would do what was called
cutting in the camera.

663
00:31:54,448 --> 00:31:57,718
So, he would not take
a million close-ups.

664
00:31:57,784 --> 00:32:00,521
He would only take a couple
of close-ups

665
00:32:00,587 --> 00:32:04,558
that he knew he had to have,
or that he personally wanted.

666
00:32:04,625 --> 00:32:06,960
- Choose A or B.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

667
00:32:07,027 --> 00:32:10,931
So, he was very protective
of his footage.

668
00:32:11,398 --> 00:32:14,034
And there's some
very funny memos.

669
00:32:14,101 --> 00:32:18,672
Like there's a funny memo from
<i>How Green Was My Valley.</i>

670
00:32:18,739 --> 00:32:21,508
Ford is out at Malibu, shooting,

671
00:32:21,575 --> 00:32:24,077
because that's where
they built the Welsh village

672
00:32:24,144 --> 00:32:26,079
that the story takes place in.
- Norman: Of course.

673
00:32:26,146 --> 00:32:28,415
- And so, he's out in Malibu.

674
00:32:28,482 --> 00:32:32,286
And so, he shoots the footage
for the day.

675
00:32:32,986 --> 00:32:35,956
And it's a scene with Walter
Pidgeon and Roddy McDowall,

676
00:32:36,023 --> 00:32:40,727
who's playing a boy
who's been temporarily paralyzed

677
00:32:40,794 --> 00:32:42,796
and is learning to walk, okay?

678
00:32:42,863 --> 00:32:44,531
So, and they're up
on this hillside

679
00:32:44,598 --> 00:32:48,235
and there's all these
daffodils, very Welsh scene.

680
00:32:48,302 --> 00:32:50,037
- Norman: Did they have the
daffodils brought in,

681
00:32:50,103 --> 00:32:51,438
or how does that...?
- Lea: Yeah,

682
00:32:51,505 --> 00:32:53,240
they're really there,
and there's a lot of 'em.

683
00:32:53,307 --> 00:32:56,243
Anyway, so there's this
very moving scene,

684
00:32:56,310 --> 00:32:59,146
but the landscape is
very important in this movie.

685
00:32:59,213 --> 00:33:01,915
And so, there's this long,
this long shot

686
00:33:01,982 --> 00:33:06,420
with a lot of landscape, light
at the back, dark foreground.

687
00:33:06,486 --> 00:33:08,488
We know how Ford rolls.

688
00:33:08,555 --> 00:33:10,257
So, Zanuck prints this up,

689
00:33:10,324 --> 00:33:15,128
and he sends a telegram to Ford
the next day and says,

690
00:33:16,496 --> 00:33:19,433
"Are you gonna shoot
some close-ups of Huw?

691
00:33:19,499 --> 00:33:23,337
"I really, I really think
we need some close-ups of Huw

692
00:33:23,403 --> 00:33:26,473
as he's walking towards camera
and he figures out he can walk."

693
00:33:26,540 --> 00:33:28,509
You know, he's being
very careful with Ford

694
00:33:28,575 --> 00:33:30,544
'cause Ford is a prima donna.

695
00:33:30,611 --> 00:33:33,213
You could tell Zanuck
is handling him.

696
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,951
And Ford was so mad, he wrote
in pencil on the telegram,

697
00:33:38,018 --> 00:33:41,688
"Dear Darryl, at 6 o'clock,
the sun goes down out here."

698
00:33:41,755 --> 00:33:44,691
[Norman laughs] So, and he did
shoot some close-ups,

699
00:33:44,758 --> 00:33:48,195
but you could tell Zanuck
thought he might well not,

700
00:33:48,262 --> 00:33:51,732
because he was--
He liked to control the editing,

701
00:33:51,798 --> 00:33:53,800
but Zanuck wanted to control
the editing.

702
00:33:53,867 --> 00:33:58,705
And so, he had to make sure
he had the footage he needed.

703
00:33:58,772 --> 00:34:01,208
- Were we in, let's see,
by the time we get

704
00:34:01,275 --> 00:34:04,945
to <i>How Green Was My Valley,</i>
that's 1941.

705
00:34:05,579 --> 00:34:08,515
Is Ford dealing at all
with color at this point?

706
00:34:08,582 --> 00:34:11,051
I mean, obviously there has been
color very effectively,

707
00:34:11,118 --> 00:34:13,554
<i>Wizard of Oz</i>
just a couple of years before.

708
00:34:13,620 --> 00:34:15,522
And experiments
well before that.

709
00:34:15,589 --> 00:34:18,125
But at what point
does he pick up color?

710
00:34:18,192 --> 00:34:21,995
- So, Ford's first color film
was shot in 1939.

711
00:34:22,062 --> 00:34:25,966
In 1939, Ford shot,
finished <i>Stagecoach,</i>

712
00:34:26,033 --> 00:34:28,101
he shot <i>Young Mr. Lincoln,</i>

713
00:34:28,168 --> 00:34:32,105
he shot <i>The Grapes of Wrath</i>
with Henry Fonda.

714
00:34:32,172 --> 00:34:33,941
- Seven big films
in three years.

715
00:34:34,007 --> 00:34:36,777
- Yeah, and then he shot
<i>Drums Along the Mohawk,</i>

716
00:34:36,844 --> 00:34:39,580
which is about the
American Revolutionary War.

717
00:34:39,646 --> 00:34:42,316
And it was shot in Utah,
of course. [Norman laughs]

718
00:34:42,382 --> 00:34:44,618
And that was his
first color film.

719
00:34:44,685 --> 00:34:45,819
- Norman:
<i>Drums Along the Mohawk?</i>

720
00:34:45,886 --> 00:34:47,020
- Lea: <i>Drums Along the Mohawk.</i>

721
00:34:47,087 --> 00:34:49,289
And then, he didn't go back
to shooting in color

722
00:34:49,356 --> 00:34:51,024
until late 1949.

723
00:34:52,125 --> 00:34:55,829
But the thing is that
Zanuck wanted to shoot

724
00:34:55,896 --> 00:34:58,599
<i>How Green Was My Valley</i>
in color,

725
00:34:58,665 --> 00:35:00,734
because <i>How Green Was My</i>
<i>Valley,</i> right?

726
00:35:00,801 --> 00:35:02,736
He wanted it to look green.
[Norman laughs]

727
00:35:02,803 --> 00:35:05,672
And he wanted to shoot in Wales,
in color.

728
00:35:05,739 --> 00:35:07,641
And Zanuck, of course,
had bosses too.

729
00:35:07,708 --> 00:35:10,110
This is a hierarchical system.

730
00:35:10,177 --> 00:35:11,512
- Who would that be,
the financiers?

731
00:35:11,578 --> 00:35:15,115
- The studio president
who's in New York,

732
00:35:15,182 --> 00:35:18,952
Sidney Kent and his minions
who said, "No, you can't.

733
00:35:19,019 --> 00:35:20,354
It's too much."
- Too expensive.

734
00:35:20,420 --> 00:35:21,522
- Too expensive.

735
00:35:21,588 --> 00:35:23,123
First of all,
you're gonna have to take

736
00:35:23,190 --> 00:35:25,259
all those people on location.

737
00:35:25,325 --> 00:35:27,594
And second of all, you're
gonna have to shoot in color,

738
00:35:27,661 --> 00:35:28,929
which is more expensive.

739
00:35:28,996 --> 00:35:30,430
- And the weather
has to cooperate.

740
00:35:30,497 --> 00:35:31,665
- Yeah, yeah.

741
00:35:31,732 --> 00:35:34,701
If you're there a long time,
it's gonna be bad.

742
00:35:34,768 --> 00:35:36,970
So, he didn't get to shoot
in Europe in color

743
00:35:37,037 --> 00:35:40,574
'til <i>The Quiet Man,</i>
which is a great movie.

744
00:35:40,641 --> 00:35:42,309
And it's gonna be in volume two

745
00:35:42,376 --> 00:35:44,711
of <i>John Ford at Work.</i>
- Oh, well, I was gonna say--

746
00:35:44,778 --> 00:35:47,915
- It's the ending, 'cause it's
kind of an end point.

747
00:35:47,981 --> 00:35:49,650
But <i>How Green Was My Valley</i>
is beautiful.

748
00:35:49,716 --> 00:35:52,686
It's in black and white,
but it has this terrific,

749
00:35:52,753 --> 00:35:56,156
monumental set
of the valley itself.

750
00:35:56,223 --> 00:36:00,394
And it also, huge, a huge set,
and it has some

751
00:36:00,460 --> 00:36:04,031
very beautiful black and white
cinematography, so.

752
00:36:04,097 --> 00:36:07,167
- He does some lovely things
with interior shots

753
00:36:07,234 --> 00:36:08,569
in that film too.
- Yes.

754
00:36:08,635 --> 00:36:10,804
- Right out of like a Vermeer
or some,

755
00:36:10,871 --> 00:36:12,206
you know, painting.

756
00:36:12,272 --> 00:36:15,008
- Yes, it's very beautiful,

757
00:36:15,075 --> 00:36:18,445
especially the shots
inside the...

758
00:36:18,512 --> 00:36:21,315
This is a Welsh mining valley.

759
00:36:21,782 --> 00:36:24,952
The houses are small,
the ceilings are low.

760
00:36:25,018 --> 00:36:28,655
Ford loved to build his sets
with ceilings

761
00:36:28,722 --> 00:36:31,725
because then he felt
it was more realistic.

762
00:36:31,792 --> 00:36:35,696
And so, you have these
supposedly cramped

763
00:36:35,762 --> 00:36:39,566
Welsh mining village houses,
row houses.

764
00:36:39,633 --> 00:36:41,468
Actually, they're quite big.

765
00:36:41,535 --> 00:36:44,638
If you've ever seen
a row house, which I've been in,

766
00:36:44,705 --> 00:36:47,174
they're not, they're
not as big as they look here.

767
00:36:47,241 --> 00:36:51,512
But the great thing
about the interiors is, again,

768
00:36:51,578 --> 00:36:53,013
the use of depth,

769
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,650
the kinds of things we saw
with <i>Stagecoach</i> earlier

770
00:36:56,717 --> 00:36:58,619
where we have
these beautiful light,

771
00:36:58,685 --> 00:37:00,787
this beautiful light
at the back of the set,

772
00:37:00,854 --> 00:37:03,190
these dark backgrounds,

773
00:37:03,524 --> 00:37:06,560
these long lines of people
set up.

774
00:37:06,627 --> 00:37:09,796
These are the brothers
of this family.

775
00:37:09,863 --> 00:37:12,799
The little boy who narrates
the film in flashback,

776
00:37:12,866 --> 00:37:14,902
his name is Huw,
played by Roddy McDowall.

777
00:37:14,968 --> 00:37:17,171
He's sitting foreground left.

778
00:37:17,237 --> 00:37:18,338
And then, there are--

779
00:37:18,405 --> 00:37:20,340
- He actually was
a boy actor at that point,

780
00:37:20,407 --> 00:37:23,343
but he played boyish actors
for, like, the next 40 years.

781
00:37:23,410 --> 00:37:24,578
- Yeah.
[both laugh]

782
00:37:24,645 --> 00:37:27,948
So, then there's four brothers
standing in a row,

783
00:37:28,015 --> 00:37:31,084
meeting the bride
of the oldest brother,

784
00:37:31,151 --> 00:37:33,287
who's standing
in the background.

785
00:37:33,353 --> 00:37:38,392
This whole composition
is set up to make an aperture

786
00:37:38,458 --> 00:37:42,362
around the actress who's
playing Bronwen, the new bride,

787
00:37:42,429 --> 00:37:46,366
the first marriage of the first
and oldest son.

788
00:37:46,433 --> 00:37:49,703
So, this moment in the family
is monumental,

789
00:37:49,770 --> 00:37:54,208
and her importance is emphasized
not by close-ups,

790
00:37:54,274 --> 00:37:58,011
not by fancy, you know, effects,
but by this light

791
00:37:58,078 --> 00:38:00,247
that's just coming
through the lace curtains,

792
00:38:00,314 --> 00:38:04,484
and it's diffuse and it gives
her this beautiful halo.

793
00:38:04,551 --> 00:38:07,521
And then, this backdrop of all
the boys, it's like--

794
00:38:07,588 --> 00:38:08,922
- Norman: Their hands.
- Lea: Yeah.

795
00:38:08,989 --> 00:38:11,658
- Norman: They're pointing.
- Lea: Right, right down, yeah.

796
00:38:11,725 --> 00:38:13,927
And we know
Ford planned this

797
00:38:13,994 --> 00:38:16,463
because the brothers
are standing in their height.

798
00:38:16,530 --> 00:38:17,865
The first three,
[both laugh]

799
00:38:17,931 --> 00:38:20,701
they're standing
in the order of height.

800
00:38:20,767 --> 00:38:22,469
And then way at the right

801
00:38:22,536 --> 00:38:25,172
is that little face
of the dad, who's the patriarch

802
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:26,840
and the boss of the family.

803
00:38:26,907 --> 00:38:28,175
So, it's so beautiful.

804
00:38:28,242 --> 00:38:31,211
Everybody's where
they have to be in that shot.

805
00:38:31,278 --> 00:38:33,747
And the whole family
hierarchy is replicated.

806
00:38:33,814 --> 00:38:37,818
But the important point is
that this shot is

807
00:38:38,552 --> 00:38:41,688
actually the acme
of the movement.

808
00:38:41,755 --> 00:38:44,424
It's the end point
of a lot of movement.

809
00:38:44,491 --> 00:38:47,294
- Norman: He didn't hold this
shot and let you admire it

810
00:38:47,361 --> 00:38:49,296
for ten seconds.
- Lea: He didn't cut to it.

811
00:38:49,363 --> 00:38:51,398
Yeah, and people move
into the room,

812
00:38:51,465 --> 00:38:55,435
the boys line up to say hi,
the dad moves to the back,

813
00:38:55,502 --> 00:38:59,239
the boy sits down in the chair
to be out of the way,

814
00:38:59,306 --> 00:39:01,108
and all of a sudden,
we have this composition.

815
00:39:01,175 --> 00:39:04,011
But there's a naturalness to it
that you don't...

816
00:39:04,077 --> 00:39:07,214
So my slide,
I always say you can--

817
00:39:07,681 --> 00:39:11,018
Anyone can make brilliant slides
with a Ford movie,

818
00:39:11,084 --> 00:39:15,122
but it doesn't capture
the way that movement works

819
00:39:15,189 --> 00:39:19,092
or that performance unfolds
into these images.

820
00:39:19,159 --> 00:39:20,794
He plans the shot,

821
00:39:20,861 --> 00:39:24,865
but then he plans the movement
that will achieve the shot.

822
00:39:24,932 --> 00:39:26,200
And it's quite brilliant.

823
00:39:26,266 --> 00:39:28,202
And sometimes there are
two or three,

824
00:39:28,268 --> 00:39:30,204
like there are other
intermediate stages

825
00:39:30,270 --> 00:39:32,306
before you get to one,
so he's quite clever.

826
00:39:32,372 --> 00:39:35,042
- It seems like it's a bit
of a tightrope to walk

827
00:39:35,108 --> 00:39:38,345
between creating a shot
like that,

828
00:39:38,412 --> 00:39:42,382
and then holding it too long and
calling too much attention to it

829
00:39:42,449 --> 00:39:45,652
and stopping the action.
- Right.

830
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:47,421
- It's kind of art
concealing art.

831
00:39:47,487 --> 00:39:49,990
- Yeah,
and I think Ford's strategy,

832
00:39:50,057 --> 00:39:51,992
and I don't know how he did it,
believe me,

833
00:39:52,059 --> 00:39:54,528
but all his actors say he--

834
00:39:55,629 --> 00:39:59,499
not the famous actors
like Henry Fonda

835
00:39:59,566 --> 00:40:05,138
or Maureen O'Hara, who plays
the lone sister in this family.

836
00:40:05,906 --> 00:40:09,076
He didn't rehearse them and
he didn't want to rehearse them,

837
00:40:09,142 --> 00:40:10,978
especially for big scenes.

838
00:40:11,044 --> 00:40:12,379
He would run lines with them,

839
00:40:12,446 --> 00:40:14,515
which means they would read
the lines back and forth,

840
00:40:14,581 --> 00:40:18,018
maybe with a group of actors
involved in a scene.

841
00:40:18,085 --> 00:40:21,555
But he didn't stage,
he didn't like...

842
00:40:21,622 --> 00:40:23,390
Some directors will take
an actor and say,

843
00:40:23,457 --> 00:40:26,360
"I want you here,
and then I want you to look left

844
00:40:26,426 --> 00:40:27,861
and raise your cheek."

845
00:40:27,928 --> 00:40:29,029
And you know,

846
00:40:29,096 --> 00:40:30,230
he didn't do that.
- Micromanaging.

847
00:40:30,297 --> 00:40:31,398
- Yeah, right.

848
00:40:31,465 --> 00:40:32,733
He didn't do that at all.

849
00:40:32,799 --> 00:40:34,468
He set up a shot.

850
00:40:35,002 --> 00:40:36,970
And what he would tell the
actors is,

851
00:40:37,037 --> 00:40:38,772
"I want you to line up."

852
00:40:38,839 --> 00:40:40,340
But he wouldn't say more
than that.

853
00:40:40,407 --> 00:40:42,409
And that gave it a feeling
of like,

854
00:40:42,476 --> 00:40:44,678
the actors are trying
to figure out where they stand,

855
00:40:44,745 --> 00:40:46,113
which is, you know,
in real life,

856
00:40:46,180 --> 00:40:48,315
if you've got a small room,
that's what people do.

857
00:40:48,382 --> 00:40:49,917
- You get a little spontaneity
that way.

858
00:40:49,983 --> 00:40:51,685
- Yeah.
- If things work out right.

859
00:40:51,752 --> 00:40:54,755
Now, <i>How Green Was My Valley</i>
was,

860
00:40:55,189 --> 00:40:58,091
it was a, I'll call it a family
film, it's about family.

861
00:40:58,158 --> 00:40:59,593
It's about place, certainly,

862
00:40:59,660 --> 00:41:04,164
but it's about how the place
and the times affect

863
00:41:04,231 --> 00:41:06,633
and actually, in some ways,
destroy the family.

864
00:41:06,700 --> 00:41:07,935
- Yes, exactly.

865
00:41:08,001 --> 00:41:09,436
It's a very sad movie,

866
00:41:09,503 --> 00:41:12,372
and I imagine it
would have been very effective

867
00:41:12,439 --> 00:41:16,276
for Depression-era audiences,
because it's about a family

868
00:41:16,343 --> 00:41:20,781
that's ripped apart by social
forces beyond its control.

869
00:41:20,848 --> 00:41:22,382
And the novel is about that
too.

870
00:41:22,449 --> 00:41:24,585
But it had
a particular poignancy

871
00:41:24,651 --> 00:41:25,986
in the American context.

872
00:41:26,053 --> 00:41:29,056
So, it's a Welsh mining village.

873
00:41:29,489 --> 00:41:33,861
The sons, the older sons, are
involved in organizing a union

874
00:41:33,927 --> 00:41:37,731
and are gradually expelled
from the mine.

875
00:41:37,798 --> 00:41:41,602
They're fired, basically,
for organizing the union,

876
00:41:41,668 --> 00:41:46,006
and, or punished in various ways
and have to leave the town.

877
00:41:46,073 --> 00:41:49,910
So, gradually the sons peel off,
and it's very sad

878
00:41:49,977 --> 00:41:51,745
because it gets worse
and worse and worse.

879
00:41:51,812 --> 00:41:55,782
So, these are the first two sons
that have to leave

880
00:41:55,849 --> 00:41:58,185
because of their
union activities.

881
00:41:58,252 --> 00:41:59,453
And you see,

882
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,289
young Huw, this is
before he's recovered his,

883
00:42:02,356 --> 00:42:03,957
the ability to walk.

884
00:42:04,024 --> 00:42:05,125
He was in an accident.

885
00:42:05,192 --> 00:42:09,530
So, he's recuperating,
and the boys sneak off

886
00:42:09,596 --> 00:42:13,166
while the family's out,
and he hears them going

887
00:42:13,233 --> 00:42:16,470
and he sits up in bed
to call for them.

888
00:42:16,537 --> 00:42:18,705
And we see him in that
second shot in the room,

889
00:42:18,772 --> 00:42:22,576
and it's empty because
the boys have left to go away

890
00:42:22,643 --> 00:42:24,244
and never come back.

891
00:42:24,311 --> 00:42:25,979
And it's really sad.

892
00:42:26,046 --> 00:42:28,782
And it's the first
of a series of very,

893
00:42:28,849 --> 00:42:31,518
very sad moments in the film.

894
00:42:32,252 --> 00:42:34,788
And this is complicated
by the danger

895
00:42:34,855 --> 00:42:36,490
of the work that the men do.

896
00:42:36,557 --> 00:42:39,293
So, Ivor, the oldest
who marries Bron,

897
00:42:39,359 --> 00:42:41,828
after the birth of his son,

898
00:42:43,697 --> 00:42:46,466
he is killed
in a mining accident.

899
00:42:46,533 --> 00:42:50,571
And so, the whole family
has to deal with the,

900
00:42:50,637 --> 00:42:53,941
you know, the loss
of the new head of the family.

901
00:42:54,007 --> 00:42:57,945
So, this shot here
shows his wife, Bron,

902
00:42:58,011 --> 00:43:00,380
who we saw getting married
in the earlier shot.

903
00:43:00,447 --> 00:43:03,851
She's holding her baby and she's
talking to her mother-in-law,

904
00:43:03,917 --> 00:43:07,321
and she's saying,
"Oh, it's lonely, I am,"

905
00:43:07,387 --> 00:43:10,490
you know,
after her husband's death.

906
00:43:10,557 --> 00:43:12,993
And in front is Huw,
our narrator,

907
00:43:13,060 --> 00:43:14,361
talking with his father.

908
00:43:14,428 --> 00:43:16,697
Huw has just
successfully graduated

909
00:43:16,763 --> 00:43:18,966
from the,
not the village school,

910
00:43:19,032 --> 00:43:20,767
but the town school.

911
00:43:20,834 --> 00:43:23,770
And he's excelled
as a scholar.

912
00:43:23,837 --> 00:43:26,173
And his father's saying to him,
"Okay, what do you wanna do?

913
00:43:26,240 --> 00:43:28,575
Do you wanna be a doctor,
do you wanna be a lawyer?"

914
00:43:28,642 --> 00:43:32,145
You have, you know, a new, a
future that's better than mine,

915
00:43:32,212 --> 00:43:35,015
better than being
in the mine.

916
00:43:35,716 --> 00:43:40,087
And Huw looks back at his mother
and his sister-in-law

917
00:43:40,153 --> 00:43:42,723
and his nephew, and he goes,

918
00:43:43,323 --> 00:43:45,592
"I wanna go
in the mine with you."

919
00:43:45,659 --> 00:43:47,561
And it's such a poignant moment,

920
00:43:47,628 --> 00:43:49,663
especially for Americans,
I think.

921
00:43:49,730 --> 00:43:52,699
I mean, we believe
in bettering yourself,

922
00:43:52,766 --> 00:43:54,868
you know, and this is
an inversion of that.

923
00:43:54,935 --> 00:43:56,904
And it's so understandable.

924
00:43:56,970 --> 00:43:58,672
But it's also so frustrating.

925
00:43:58,739 --> 00:44:00,407
No, don't do this,
don't do this.

926
00:44:00,474 --> 00:44:04,077
And his father is like,
his father's really mad

927
00:44:04,144 --> 00:44:07,681
and very upset, but he does,
he goes back in the mine.

928
00:44:07,748 --> 00:44:09,149
And I won't tell you
what happens,

929
00:44:09,216 --> 00:44:11,385
but even more sad things happen.

930
00:44:11,451 --> 00:44:13,153
But then the ending,

931
00:44:13,220 --> 00:44:15,789
and the ending really is
Ford's, I think.

932
00:44:15,856 --> 00:44:19,092
A lot of this script
was Zanuck's or other people

933
00:44:19,159 --> 00:44:21,395
who were involved
in the writing of the script.

934
00:44:21,461 --> 00:44:25,299
But Zanuck wanted to have
a happy ending somehow,

935
00:44:25,365 --> 00:44:27,901
some kind of a happy ending.
- Wow, that's a heavy lift.

936
00:44:27,968 --> 00:44:30,938
- Yeah, it was a heavy lift,
and Ford said...

937
00:44:31,004 --> 00:44:32,673
He didn't say it
to him directly

938
00:44:32,739 --> 00:44:33,841
'cause he couldn't,

939
00:44:33,907 --> 00:44:37,945
but what he emphasized
and what he built up to

940
00:44:38,011 --> 00:44:40,013
was a happy epilogue,

941
00:44:40,647 --> 00:44:44,451
which is a memory
of the early part of the film.

942
00:44:44,518 --> 00:44:47,521
So, these, both these shots
are from early in the film.

943
00:44:47,588 --> 00:44:49,389
You see Huw walking
with his father

944
00:44:49,456 --> 00:44:51,491
in the village
early in the film,

945
00:44:51,558 --> 00:44:53,393
and the voice-over tells us,

946
00:44:53,460 --> 00:44:56,063
"My father never taught me
anything that was bad.

947
00:44:56,129 --> 00:44:58,799
My father was always right."

948
00:44:59,333 --> 00:45:01,835
And then, there's this shot
of the family

949
00:45:01,902 --> 00:45:03,003
sitting down to dinner.

950
00:45:03,070 --> 00:45:05,739
And finally, you see
the women of the family,

951
00:45:05,806 --> 00:45:09,910
including the transcendently
beautiful Maureen O'Hara

952
00:45:09,977 --> 00:45:11,612
as the sister
who's helping the mother

953
00:45:11,678 --> 00:45:13,914
serve the meals as the men eat.

954
00:45:13,981 --> 00:45:17,017
But this also is a shot
that recurs at the end.

955
00:45:17,084 --> 00:45:22,322
That is, as memory, Huw
in memory remembers these times.

956
00:45:22,923 --> 00:45:26,193
So, the happiness is
the community

957
00:45:26,260 --> 00:45:28,529
and the family that was lost.

958
00:45:28,595 --> 00:45:30,531
It's very poignant, that movie.

959
00:45:30,597 --> 00:45:32,533
I highly recommend it.

960
00:45:32,599 --> 00:45:35,369
It won the Academy Award
over <i>Citizen Kane.</i>

961
00:45:35,435 --> 00:45:37,905
- Over <i>Citizen Kane,</i>
one of the great upsets

962
00:45:37,971 --> 00:45:39,273
in film history, isn't it?

963
00:45:39,339 --> 00:45:42,676
- Yeah, and I have to say,
it was just.

964
00:45:43,844 --> 00:45:46,713
It's a better movie.
[both laugh]

965
00:45:46,780 --> 00:45:49,449
- Well, it has this
great emotional resonance,

966
00:45:49,516 --> 00:45:52,619
as you say, Lea,
to the situation.

967
00:45:52,686 --> 00:45:55,155
Actually, any time.
- Yeah.

968
00:45:55,222 --> 00:45:56,990
- When you're talking
about family and how

969
00:45:57,057 --> 00:46:00,594
they can get pulled apart
even for short periods of time.

970
00:46:00,661 --> 00:46:03,964
And so, that had
to really resonate,

971
00:46:04,031 --> 00:46:06,733
dare I say it, more than
something like <i>Citizen Kane,</i>

972
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,503
which have its poignant aspects

973
00:46:09,570 --> 00:46:12,139
but was a little more
self-conscious, maybe.

974
00:46:12,206 --> 00:46:14,541
- Yeah, I mean, <i>Citizen Kane</i>
is about the wonder

975
00:46:14,608 --> 00:46:18,779
of this puzzle that you
put together, you know?

976
00:46:18,846 --> 00:46:21,548
Whereas this, I mean,
they're both flashback movies.

977
00:46:21,615 --> 00:46:24,551
And that was something that
filmmakers and screenwriters

978
00:46:24,618 --> 00:46:28,622
were experimenting
with at the end of the '30s

979
00:46:28,689 --> 00:46:29,890
and beginning of the '40s.

980
00:46:29,957 --> 00:46:31,792
I mean, people were very
interested in the flashback.

981
00:46:31,859 --> 00:46:33,460
Now, we're so used to that,

982
00:46:33,527 --> 00:46:36,797
but it was considered
interesting and novel,

983
00:46:36,864 --> 00:46:39,666
and especially
to tell a story in pieces

984
00:46:39,733 --> 00:46:42,469
like <i>Citizen Kane</i>
was very novel.

985
00:46:42,536 --> 00:46:45,606
But just for heartfelt feeling.

986
00:46:45,672 --> 00:46:48,642
And then it's exacerbated--
Ford loved music.

987
00:46:48,709 --> 00:46:49,877
I haven't mentioned this, but--

988
00:46:49,943 --> 00:46:52,913
- There's singing
in surprising, like,

989
00:46:52,980 --> 00:46:55,315
even in <i>The Grapes of Wrath...</i>

990
00:46:55,382 --> 00:46:57,484
- Yes.
- ...he has Henry Fonda singing.

991
00:46:57,551 --> 00:46:59,186
- People sing in Ford movies.

992
00:46:59,253 --> 00:47:01,989
And Ford himself
came from a family,

993
00:47:02,055 --> 00:47:05,792
you know, an Irish family
of Irish immigrants who sang,

994
00:47:05,859 --> 00:47:07,861
and he loved ballads.

995
00:47:09,129 --> 00:47:12,799
And in some of his
earliest sound films,

996
00:47:13,433 --> 00:47:18,505
he was reportedly wanted
a sea shanty sung in a scene.

997
00:47:18,572 --> 00:47:20,140
And so, he just got
some people together

998
00:47:20,207 --> 00:47:22,376
and he sang the baritone part.
[Norman laughs]

999
00:47:22,442 --> 00:47:23,710
According to legend,
I don't know.

1000
00:47:23,777 --> 00:47:26,113
- <i>The Long Voyage Home,</i> maybe?
- Oh, there's a lot of--

1001
00:47:26,180 --> 00:47:27,915
- I think that has some shanties
in there.

1002
00:47:27,981 --> 00:47:29,116
- Oh, yeah.
- From 1940.

1003
00:47:29,183 --> 00:47:32,019
- Yeah,
and of course, a great...

1004
00:47:32,085 --> 00:47:35,289
"When Irish Eyes Are Smiling,"
a great drunken rendition

1005
00:47:35,355 --> 00:47:39,026
of "When Irish Eyes Are
Smiling," just unforgettable.

1006
00:47:39,092 --> 00:47:41,562
But, yeah, but so this film

1007
00:47:42,362 --> 00:47:46,133
was shot with a Welsh choir
in Los Angeles

1008
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:47,868
who sing in Welsh.

1009
00:47:48,168 --> 00:47:50,537
All the hymns are sung in Welsh

1010
00:47:50,604 --> 00:47:54,775
and they actually appear
in certain shots.

1011
00:47:54,842 --> 00:47:57,878
But their music, a lot
of the scenes are staged

1012
00:47:57,945 --> 00:47:59,279
to their music.

1013
00:47:59,346 --> 00:48:03,550
So, I imagine it was, Ford loved
to do this, pre-record music

1014
00:48:03,617 --> 00:48:05,853
that the actors
could then react to.

1015
00:48:05,919 --> 00:48:08,589
Like the men are marching home
from the mine

1016
00:48:08,655 --> 00:48:11,158
and they're supposedly singing.

1017
00:48:11,225 --> 00:48:12,993
Well, that's pre-recorded music.

1018
00:48:13,060 --> 00:48:16,997
But they heard that music while
they're marching down the hill.

1019
00:48:17,064 --> 00:48:19,566
- So, it's suggesting
what they were hearing

1020
00:48:19,633 --> 00:48:22,169
in their imaginations
when they did that.

1021
00:48:22,236 --> 00:48:25,272
I can't resist though, as long
as I've mentioned this title

1022
00:48:25,339 --> 00:48:28,075
that we've skipped over
a very big film

1023
00:48:28,141 --> 00:48:29,443
that John Ford did,

1024
00:48:29,510 --> 00:48:31,078
but it also has to do
with family

1025
00:48:31,144 --> 00:48:33,280
and the dissolution
of the family

1026
00:48:33,347 --> 00:48:36,283
because of the failure
of the landscape

1027
00:48:36,350 --> 00:48:38,719
and the failure
of the government.

1028
00:48:38,785 --> 00:48:41,922
And it's called
<i>The Grapes of Wrath.</i>

1029
00:48:41,989 --> 00:48:43,357
- Lea: Yes.

1030
00:48:43,423 --> 00:48:45,959
- Norman: But I don't know why,
but the last couple of days,

1031
00:48:46,026 --> 00:48:49,463
there's one brief scene in there
that I've been thinking about,

1032
00:48:49,530 --> 00:48:52,032
and that is the scene where Ma
Joad, they're getting ready--

1033
00:48:52,099 --> 00:48:53,433
I know why I'm thinking of this

1034
00:48:53,500 --> 00:48:55,302
because I'm throwing out stuff
at home.

1035
00:48:55,369 --> 00:48:56,703
[both laugh]
So, you know which scene

1036
00:48:56,770 --> 00:48:58,071
I'm referring to?
- Yes.

1037
00:48:58,138 --> 00:49:01,542
- They're getting ready to
leave Oklahoma for California.

1038
00:49:01,608 --> 00:49:03,277
They have to get rid of things.

1039
00:49:03,343 --> 00:49:08,415
And postcards, memorabilia,
putting them in the fire.

1040
00:49:08,482 --> 00:49:10,584
- Lea: All to Red River Valley.
- Norman: Yeah.

1041
00:49:10,651 --> 00:49:13,387
- Lea: It's really
a very touching scene, yeah.

1042
00:49:13,453 --> 00:49:16,957
I mean, that script
and this script

1043
00:49:17,024 --> 00:49:18,959
were both prepared by Zanuck.

1044
00:49:19,026 --> 00:49:22,596
He expected, in the case
of <i>How Green Was My Valley,</i>

1045
00:49:22,663 --> 00:49:24,831
he was following up
on <i>Young Mr. Lincoln.</i>

1046
00:49:24,898 --> 00:49:28,035
He had Henry Fonda
under contract

1047
00:49:28,936 --> 00:49:33,340
because Henry Fonda wanted
the part of Lincoln so badly,

1048
00:49:33,407 --> 00:49:34,842
even though he was nervous
about it.

1049
00:49:34,908 --> 00:49:36,977
He wanted it so badly
that he signed a contract,

1050
00:49:37,044 --> 00:49:40,380
an exclusive contract with Fox,
so.

1051
00:49:40,948 --> 00:49:42,616
So, he follows it up

1052
00:49:42,683 --> 00:49:45,152
with <i>How Green Was My Valley</i>
right away.

1053
00:49:45,219 --> 00:49:48,322
And in fact, they were
preparing the script,

1054
00:49:48,388 --> 00:49:49,723
and they had to, of course,

1055
00:49:49,790 --> 00:49:52,025
they had to get the rights
from John Steinbeck

1056
00:49:52,092 --> 00:49:54,428
and they had to consult
with him.

1057
00:49:54,494 --> 00:49:57,197
You can't, I mean, you can't
fool around with John Steinbeck.

1058
00:49:57,264 --> 00:50:00,167
You've got to make a script
that he's gonna like, right?

1059
00:50:00,234 --> 00:50:03,036
So, Zanuck's working on that.

1060
00:50:03,971 --> 00:50:06,373
And Ford is still working
on <i>Young Mr. Lincoln</i>

1061
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:08,108
with Henry Fonda.

1062
00:50:08,175 --> 00:50:10,811
And then, they move
into that film and,

1063
00:50:10,878 --> 00:50:15,315
but you can hear, as you say,
there's echoes of that in this.

1064
00:50:15,382 --> 00:50:17,384
And I think... I do...

1065
00:50:19,019 --> 00:50:23,023
For me, I do think of these
films as, you know,

1066
00:50:23,090 --> 00:50:24,358
it wasn't when they were--

1067
00:50:24,424 --> 00:50:26,894
When the studios were right
in the worst

1068
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,130
and the country was right
in the worst of the Depression,

1069
00:50:30,197 --> 00:50:33,901
they tended to make musicals,
happy movies.

1070
00:50:33,967 --> 00:50:35,202
- Yeah, escape.
- Yeah.

1071
00:50:35,269 --> 00:50:36,603
I mean,
they did make some movies

1072
00:50:36,670 --> 00:50:38,972
about runaway boys
and things like that.

1073
00:50:39,039 --> 00:50:41,441
- Or a runaway girl
in the case of Judy Garland.

1074
00:50:41,508 --> 00:50:43,410
- Yeah.
[both laughs]

1075
00:50:43,477 --> 00:50:47,614
But these films are
very much, it seems to me,

1076
00:50:49,283 --> 00:50:52,219
banking on, you might say,
they're not directly

1077
00:50:52,286 --> 00:50:56,056
about the Depression,
but they're banking on...

1078
00:50:56,123 --> 00:50:58,926
Well, of course, <i>How Green...</i>

1079
00:50:59,626 --> 00:51:00,727
There is a connection

1080
00:51:00,794 --> 00:51:02,462
between the Dust Bowl
and the Depression.

1081
00:51:02,529 --> 00:51:06,567
And so, in that case, it's more
directly about the Depression.

1082
00:51:06,633 --> 00:51:09,903
But they are trying
to appeal to people

1083
00:51:09,970 --> 00:51:14,875
and to the collective
experience of the Depression,

1084
00:51:15,809 --> 00:51:18,145
I think,
and it seems to me

1085
00:51:18,745 --> 00:51:21,849
that there are certain scenes,
for example,

1086
00:51:21,915 --> 00:51:23,717
<i>How Green Was My Valley,</i>

1087
00:51:23,784 --> 00:51:26,920
Zanuck was a pretty conservative
guy, a Republican.

1088
00:51:26,987 --> 00:51:30,691
He didn't want pro-union
sentiment in the movie.

1089
00:51:30,757 --> 00:51:33,527
- <i>In The Grapes of Wrath?</i>
- Well, in <i>The Grapes of Wrath--</i>

1090
00:51:33,594 --> 00:51:35,996
- Or <i>How Green Was My Valley,</i>
same kind of thing.

1091
00:51:36,063 --> 00:51:37,598
- Yeah.

1092
00:51:37,664 --> 00:51:39,933
But there are scenes
of people organizing.

1093
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:41,368
- They're certainly
in the books.

1094
00:51:41,435 --> 00:51:43,370
- Yeah, and they come right
out of those

1095
00:51:43,437 --> 00:51:46,039
Depression-era photographs
by Dorothea Lange.

1096
00:51:46,106 --> 00:51:50,444
And, you know,
they're very much referencing,

1097
00:51:51,178 --> 00:51:55,249
and there's that scene
in the first migrant camp

1098
00:51:55,315 --> 00:51:58,118
when they're, they haven't
gotten to California yet.

1099
00:51:58,185 --> 00:52:01,088
Somebody's playing the banjo
and people are sitting around,

1100
00:52:01,154 --> 00:52:04,091
but they start talking about,
you know,

1101
00:52:04,157 --> 00:52:05,259
what they've left behind,

1102
00:52:05,325 --> 00:52:06,860
and they don't know
what they're gonna find.

1103
00:52:06,927 --> 00:52:10,731
And you just get this feeling
of people not knowing

1104
00:52:10,797 --> 00:52:12,966
where their next meal
is gonna come from.

1105
00:52:13,033 --> 00:52:15,002
- Literally.
- And that was,

1106
00:52:15,068 --> 00:52:19,806
we had that in America on a wide
scale that we haven't had since.

1107
00:52:19,873 --> 00:52:21,608
- Too big for him to overlook.
- Yeah.

1108
00:52:21,675 --> 00:52:24,444
- Quite the contrary,
he called attention to it.

1109
00:52:24,511 --> 00:52:27,848
- Yeah, and I think
both those films did very well.

1110
00:52:27,915 --> 00:52:31,018
<i>How Green Was My Valley</i>
won Best Picture.

1111
00:52:31,084 --> 00:52:34,621
There were Academy Awards
for <i>Grapes of Wrath</i> too,

1112
00:52:34,688 --> 00:52:37,090
but it didn't win Best Picture.

1113
00:52:37,157 --> 00:52:40,961
- Let's look forward to the end
of the career of John Ford.

1114
00:52:41,028 --> 00:52:44,731
What was he working on
and what was he working with?

1115
00:52:44,798 --> 00:52:46,667
- Well, by the end
of his career,

1116
00:52:46,733 --> 00:52:49,069
he was no longer
in control again.

1117
00:52:49,136 --> 00:52:51,805
He had this brief moment
right after the war,

1118
00:52:51,872 --> 00:52:54,208
where he had his
own production company,

1119
00:52:54,274 --> 00:52:58,212
which had its own financing
and its own distribution deals.

1120
00:52:58,278 --> 00:52:59,479
That's what you want.

1121
00:52:59,546 --> 00:53:01,515
You don't want just
a little independent producer.

1122
00:53:01,582 --> 00:53:03,750
You wanna know you have
access to banks

1123
00:53:03,817 --> 00:53:05,452
and you have access to theaters,

1124
00:53:05,519 --> 00:53:06,854
'cause if you have
those things,

1125
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:08,555
you can take a lot of risks.

1126
00:53:08,622 --> 00:53:10,691
And he had that
for a very brief period.

1127
00:53:10,757 --> 00:53:13,794
He and a producer called
Merian C. Cooper,

1128
00:53:13,861 --> 00:53:17,331
who was the guy who produced
<i>King Kong,</i> [Norman laughs]

1129
00:53:17,397 --> 00:53:19,933
they had an independent
production company

1130
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:23,036
and they were successful
enough to keep going,

1131
00:53:23,103 --> 00:53:27,774
largely thanks to a series of
Westerns starring John Wayne.

1132
00:53:27,841 --> 00:53:30,844
And so, they were
able to keep going.

1133
00:53:30,911 --> 00:53:36,483
And in those films, which pretty
much end with <i>The Quiet Man,</i>

1134
00:53:37,784 --> 00:53:39,686
Ford had a lot of say.

1135
00:53:40,220 --> 00:53:42,055
He could pick
his properties,

1136
00:53:42,122 --> 00:53:44,992
he could manage
script development,

1137
00:53:45,058 --> 00:53:46,660
and he could work
with John Wayne

1138
00:53:46,727 --> 00:53:48,729
and with people he loved,

1139
00:53:48,795 --> 00:53:51,331
cameramen and so on,
to arrange his films.

1140
00:53:51,398 --> 00:53:53,166
I mean,
he didn't do it all himself,

1141
00:53:53,233 --> 00:53:54,801
but he was in charge of it.

1142
00:53:54,868 --> 00:53:57,004
And those are
his greatest films, to my mind.

1143
00:53:57,070 --> 00:54:02,876
Those films, from the post-war
films between <i>Fort Apache</i>

1144
00:54:02,943 --> 00:54:06,280
and <i>The Quiet Man,</i>
that set of films.

1145
00:54:07,581 --> 00:54:11,118
Then he's
an independent producer,

1146
00:54:11,185 --> 00:54:12,519
but he doesn't have access
to banks

1147
00:54:12,586 --> 00:54:15,556
or he doesn't have
the kind of control

1148
00:54:15,622 --> 00:54:17,057
that would give him access
to theater.

1149
00:54:17,124 --> 00:54:19,826
So, then he's back
to having to please

1150
00:54:19,893 --> 00:54:23,230
some anonymous
production company

1151
00:54:23,964 --> 00:54:28,035
that's actually bankrolling
the project.

1152
00:54:28,101 --> 00:54:30,504
Now, he's John Ford,
he's won a lot of Oscars.

1153
00:54:30,571 --> 00:54:32,906
He has a lot of say,
but he's not,

1154
00:54:32,973 --> 00:54:35,242
he doesn't have
the same kind of control.

1155
00:54:35,309 --> 00:54:37,344
And often what would happen

1156
00:54:37,411 --> 00:54:39,847
is a producer would come to him
and say,

1157
00:54:39,913 --> 00:54:42,549
"Okay, I've got this script.

1158
00:54:42,616 --> 00:54:44,351
"You know,
we want you to shoot it.

1159
00:54:44,418 --> 00:54:46,720
"If you can bring us
John Wayne, that's good.

1160
00:54:46,787 --> 00:54:48,055
We want John Wayne."

1161
00:54:48,121 --> 00:54:51,592
And then...
So, he had some, you know,

1162
00:54:52,359 --> 00:54:54,995
Ford can do a lot
with images and music.

1163
00:54:55,062 --> 00:54:58,665
So, if he has control over
those things, he's got control.

1164
00:54:58,732 --> 00:55:01,101
But he's not completely
in control,

1165
00:55:01,168 --> 00:55:03,203
not like he was
in that post-war,

1166
00:55:03,270 --> 00:55:04,872
immediate post-war period.

1167
00:55:04,938 --> 00:55:10,944
- Well, Lea Jacobs, it's been
quite an exercise in the world,

1168
00:55:11,011 --> 00:55:16,450
the world of Americana as seen
through the lens of John Ford.

1169
00:55:16,517 --> 00:55:18,619
- I'm glad you enjoyed it.

1170
00:55:18,685 --> 00:55:19,953
- I'm Norman Gilliland,

1171
00:55:20,020 --> 00:55:24,324
and thanks for joining me
for <i>University Place Presents.</i>

1172
00:55:24,391 --> 00:55:26,059
[gentle music]