1
00:00:01,401 --> 00:00:03,070
[gentle music]
2
00:00:08,876 --> 00:00:10,177
- Norman Gilliland:
The Wisconsin State
3
00:00:10,244 --> 00:00:13,113
Crime Laboratories operate
under the Department of Justice.
4
00:00:13,180 --> 00:00:15,282
Their primary mission
is to perform
5
00:00:15,349 --> 00:00:17,451
error-free forensic analysis
6
00:00:17,518 --> 00:00:20,988
capable of withstanding
rigorous challenges in court,
7
00:00:21,054 --> 00:00:23,190
which sounds like a high bar.
8
00:00:23,257 --> 00:00:26,960
I'm Norman Gilliland, welcome
to University Place Presents.
9
00:00:27,027 --> 00:00:29,029
We'll look at some notable
Wisconsin cases
10
00:00:29,096 --> 00:00:32,199
involving the lab
with Robert Block,
11
00:00:32,266 --> 00:00:36,870
who worked at the Wisconsin
State Crime Lab for 34 years.
12
00:00:36,937 --> 00:00:38,572
Welcome
to University Place Presents.
13
00:00:38,639 --> 00:00:39,973
- Robert Block: Thank you.
14
00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:41,775
- There's a lot to cover here.
15
00:00:41,842 --> 00:00:44,545
We're going to scamper
through some of it,
16
00:00:44,611 --> 00:00:46,647
I'm afraid, because
there are so many details
17
00:00:46,713 --> 00:00:50,417
we could go into
before we get into the cases,
18
00:00:50,484 --> 00:00:52,953
but hands-on, practical,
19
00:00:53,287 --> 00:00:57,024
day-to-day work that you did
there for those 34 years,
20
00:00:57,090 --> 00:01:00,093
what did you see
as your mission?
21
00:01:00,527 --> 00:01:03,564
- I was head of the
Drug Identification Unit,
22
00:01:03,630 --> 00:01:06,533
so my primary responsibilities
were overseeing
23
00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,804
the daily operation of the
Controlled Substances Unit.
24
00:01:10,871 --> 00:01:14,274
The crime lab as a whole,
the purpose of the lab
25
00:01:14,341 --> 00:01:17,311
is to provide
to law enforcement
26
00:01:17,377 --> 00:01:21,949
forensic services
in a number of different areas
27
00:01:23,150 --> 00:01:27,521
and to collect evidence,
analyze that evidence,
28
00:01:27,588 --> 00:01:29,857
interpret the results
of the evidence,
29
00:01:29,923 --> 00:01:31,792
and make those findings
available
30
00:01:31,859 --> 00:01:34,862
to law enforcement
and state prosecutors
31
00:01:34,928 --> 00:01:36,597
in the state of Wisconsin.
32
00:01:36,663 --> 00:01:38,765
- And what
was your actual role then
33
00:01:38,832 --> 00:01:41,401
in the involvement
in a case
34
00:01:41,802 --> 00:01:43,937
from beginning to end?
35
00:01:44,238 --> 00:01:45,939
- Well, in a drug case,
36
00:01:46,006 --> 00:01:50,244
the drug evidence would be
submitted by law enforcement.
37
00:01:50,310 --> 00:01:53,480
We would then analyze
that material
38
00:01:53,547 --> 00:01:56,483
for the presence
of controlled substances.
39
00:01:56,550 --> 00:01:58,352
Controlled substances
are those
40
00:01:58,418 --> 00:01:59,686
which by definition
41
00:01:59,753 --> 00:02:03,090
are illegal to possess
or to sell.
42
00:02:03,156 --> 00:02:04,558
And then we would,
43
00:02:04,625 --> 00:02:07,294
based on the data
generated,
44
00:02:08,362 --> 00:02:11,331
create a report
of our findings
45
00:02:11,398 --> 00:02:15,202
and submit that
to the submitting agency
46
00:02:16,103 --> 00:02:19,306
and to the prosecutor
of that county
47
00:02:19,373 --> 00:02:21,008
that submitted that evidence.
48
00:02:21,074 --> 00:02:22,242
- Did that involve
you then
49
00:02:22,309 --> 00:02:24,945
as an expert witness
in these cases?
50
00:02:25,012 --> 00:02:29,149
- Yes, all of the forensic
analysts would go to court
51
00:02:29,216 --> 00:02:33,086
testifying as experts
within their field of analysis.
52
00:02:33,153 --> 00:02:35,822
- Would that be
for the prosecution?
53
00:02:35,889 --> 00:02:38,358
- Most of the time it would be
for the prosecution,
54
00:02:38,425 --> 00:02:41,361
although
we would be available for--
55
00:02:41,428 --> 00:02:44,665
to be called as a witness
by the defense.
56
00:02:44,731 --> 00:02:48,335
That only happened, I think,
two times for me.
57
00:02:48,402 --> 00:02:51,638
The rest of the 500 times,
I would testify
58
00:02:51,705 --> 00:02:52,973
for the prosecution.
59
00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,076
- And just to clarify
our terminology here,
60
00:02:56,143 --> 00:02:58,812
there are how many
state crime labs?
61
00:02:58,879 --> 00:03:01,014
- There are three
state crime labs,
62
00:03:01,081 --> 00:03:03,383
one in Madison,
one in Milwaukee,
63
00:03:03,450 --> 00:03:04,918
and one in Wausau.
64
00:03:04,985 --> 00:03:07,154
- Norman: Do they specialize
each one,
65
00:03:07,221 --> 00:03:10,057
or are they more generalized
in their region?
66
00:03:10,123 --> 00:03:13,360
- Robert: There is duplication
of many of the areas
67
00:03:13,427 --> 00:03:16,463
in each
of the three laboratories.
68
00:03:16,530 --> 00:03:19,166
There are a couple
of special areas
69
00:03:19,233 --> 00:03:22,102
that are handled
by only one laboratory.
70
00:03:22,169 --> 00:03:27,674
So, Milwaukee is the only one
that handles physical chemistry.
71
00:03:27,741 --> 00:03:31,178
- Although you're involved
in identifying illegal drugs
72
00:03:31,245 --> 00:03:33,146
involved in cases
and that kind of thing,
73
00:03:33,213 --> 00:03:35,415
it sounds like you
get into pretty quickly
74
00:03:35,482 --> 00:03:38,118
can get involved
in murder investigations.
75
00:03:38,185 --> 00:03:41,989
- Yes, the crime lab
provides field assistance
76
00:03:42,055 --> 00:03:43,323
or crime scene assistance
77
00:03:43,390 --> 00:03:45,959
to all the law enforcement
agencies.
78
00:03:46,026 --> 00:03:49,897
And while the analysts are not
part of law enforcement,
79
00:03:49,963 --> 00:03:54,501
we have no authority to make
arrests, to do investigations.
80
00:03:54,568 --> 00:03:56,670
The way we get involved
in a crime scene
81
00:03:56,737 --> 00:04:00,607
is upon the request
of a law enforcement agency.
82
00:04:00,674 --> 00:04:01,942
We will then respond.
83
00:04:02,009 --> 00:04:05,512
We will photograph
and process that crime scene,
84
00:04:05,579 --> 00:04:06,747
collect evidence,
85
00:04:06,813 --> 00:04:09,183
and take the evidence back
to the crime lab
86
00:04:09,249 --> 00:04:11,718
for purposes of analysis.
87
00:04:11,785 --> 00:04:13,620
That's part
of our field response,
88
00:04:13,687 --> 00:04:16,557
and we have volunteer teams.
89
00:04:16,623 --> 00:04:18,425
When I was at the crime lab,
90
00:04:18,492 --> 00:04:20,494
they now actually
have designated units
91
00:04:20,561 --> 00:04:23,564
that respond to crime scenes.
92
00:04:23,630 --> 00:04:26,600
- What's the sequence
of arrivals at a crime scene?
93
00:04:26,667 --> 00:04:29,703
- Well, typically, law
enforcement would be notified.
94
00:04:29,770 --> 00:04:33,941
They would be the first
to respond to a crime scene.
95
00:04:34,007 --> 00:04:36,176
If they are not
a large enough agency
96
00:04:36,243 --> 00:04:38,712
to handle that crime scene
themselves,
97
00:04:38,779 --> 00:04:42,783
they will then make contact
with the crime laboratory.
98
00:04:42,850 --> 00:04:44,418
And the field response,
99
00:04:44,484 --> 00:04:46,119
there would be a
field response leader.
100
00:04:46,186 --> 00:04:47,454
They are on call.
101
00:04:47,521 --> 00:04:49,456
They would be the one
who would get the call
102
00:04:49,523 --> 00:04:51,692
from the law enforcement
agency.
103
00:04:51,758 --> 00:04:53,894
Periodically, it
would be routed, it made--
104
00:04:53,961 --> 00:04:55,395
the call may actually go,
say,
105
00:04:55,462 --> 00:04:57,331
to the
attorney general's office
106
00:04:57,397 --> 00:04:59,099
and then come
to the crime lab.
107
00:04:59,166 --> 00:05:02,503
But typically, they'd call
directly to the crime lab
108
00:05:02,569 --> 00:05:05,138
'cause we have a 24-hour
phone number.
109
00:05:05,205 --> 00:05:07,007
The-- That would then
be routed
110
00:05:07,074 --> 00:05:09,409
to the field response
leader.
111
00:05:09,476 --> 00:05:11,812
He'd contact the rest
of the team
112
00:05:11,879 --> 00:05:14,781
and they would respond
to the crime scene.
113
00:05:14,848 --> 00:05:18,452
- And what kind of evidence
are you looking for
114
00:05:18,519 --> 00:05:21,154
in the context
of this team?
115
00:05:21,221 --> 00:05:23,924
- All the field response scenes
that we go to
116
00:05:23,991 --> 00:05:26,960
are essentially
homicide crime scenes.
117
00:05:27,027 --> 00:05:28,362
So, the first thing
we would do
118
00:05:28,428 --> 00:05:32,032
is record that scene
by means of photography,
119
00:05:32,099 --> 00:05:35,903
primarily any bodies that
may be at that crime scene
120
00:05:35,969 --> 00:05:39,306
so they can be removed
to go to autopsy.
121
00:05:39,373 --> 00:05:41,375
We would then proceed
to photograph
122
00:05:41,441 --> 00:05:45,179
the rest of that scene
inside and outside,
123
00:05:45,245 --> 00:05:48,649
to make a record
of everything that is seen
124
00:05:48,715 --> 00:05:51,885
temporary
to that crime scene.
125
00:05:51,952 --> 00:05:55,889
You only get one opportunity
to record that crime scene.
126
00:05:55,956 --> 00:05:58,959
And so, our instruction was
you take as many photos
127
00:05:59,026 --> 00:06:04,298
as is necessary to record
that scene for future use.
128
00:06:05,465 --> 00:06:08,168
- We're all familiar
with a crime scene,
129
00:06:08,235 --> 00:06:11,939
hopefully not too familiar,
with the yellow tape
130
00:06:12,005 --> 00:06:14,608
and that kind of thing
defining the perimeter.
131
00:06:14,675 --> 00:06:17,177
But how do you define
the perimeter
132
00:06:17,244 --> 00:06:18,912
of a crime scene?
133
00:06:19,713 --> 00:06:21,949
- The perimeter
of the crime scene
134
00:06:22,015 --> 00:06:24,151
is initially defined
by law enforcement.
135
00:06:24,218 --> 00:06:27,688
They'll use that yellow tape
to mark off the boundaries,
136
00:06:27,754 --> 00:06:29,456
and normally they'll go
well beyond
137
00:06:29,523 --> 00:06:32,759
where they think
the evidence may be located.
138
00:06:32,826 --> 00:06:35,562
We will work initially
within those boundaries.
139
00:06:35,629 --> 00:06:37,564
If we find
anything indicating
140
00:06:37,631 --> 00:06:40,467
that it may be leading
to something else,
141
00:06:40,534 --> 00:06:43,370
then that crime scene
may get expanded
142
00:06:43,437 --> 00:06:47,474
and continue
in a different direction.
143
00:06:47,541 --> 00:06:49,142
But primarily,
we would be starting
144
00:06:49,209 --> 00:06:51,979
with the--
within the confines
145
00:06:52,045 --> 00:06:55,349
of that marked-off area
by law enforcement.
146
00:06:55,415 --> 00:06:58,986
- And then you go back
to the lab and what happens?
147
00:06:59,052 --> 00:07:02,523
- We will take the evidence
that has been collected.
148
00:07:02,589 --> 00:07:05,792
It will be sealed
at the crime scene.
149
00:07:05,859 --> 00:07:07,528
It will be documented
150
00:07:07,594 --> 00:07:09,930
to begin
the chain of custody.
151
00:07:09,997 --> 00:07:12,466
We'll take that evidence
back to the lab.
152
00:07:12,533 --> 00:07:15,302
It will then be distributed
to the various sections.
153
00:07:15,369 --> 00:07:17,771
In other words,
blood would go to DNA.
154
00:07:17,838 --> 00:07:18,939
If there are any drugs,
155
00:07:19,006 --> 00:07:20,707
it would go to the
Controlled Substance Unit.
156
00:07:20,774 --> 00:07:21,875
If there are any prints,
157
00:07:21,942 --> 00:07:23,944
it would go to the
fingerprint unit.
158
00:07:24,011 --> 00:07:26,513
Weapons would go
to the firearms.
159
00:07:26,580 --> 00:07:27,681
It would be distributed
160
00:07:27,748 --> 00:07:30,350
to the appropriate units
for analysis.
161
00:07:30,417 --> 00:07:32,786
- We've talked about
DNA evidence.
162
00:07:32,853 --> 00:07:35,022
And although
you're primarily
163
00:07:35,088 --> 00:07:38,425
in your 34 years
dealing with drugs,
164
00:07:39,860 --> 00:07:43,430
did you ever cross paths
with DNA then in a case?
165
00:07:43,497 --> 00:07:45,098
- By the time I was getting
166
00:07:45,165 --> 00:07:47,100
towards the end of my career
at the crime lab,
167
00:07:47,167 --> 00:07:50,204
we were doing DNA
on a routine basis.
168
00:07:51,772 --> 00:07:53,907
And that was something
169
00:07:54,441 --> 00:07:57,044
we'd always be collecting,
samples,
170
00:07:57,110 --> 00:07:58,846
blood samples, hair,
171
00:07:58,912 --> 00:08:01,982
and anything that was
of biological material
172
00:08:02,049 --> 00:08:04,184
that could be analyzed for DNA.
173
00:08:04,251 --> 00:08:07,821
So, that was a necessary process
at a crime scene.
174
00:08:07,888 --> 00:08:10,424
What changed over the years
for me
175
00:08:10,490 --> 00:08:12,326
in terms of going
to crime scenes,
176
00:08:12,392 --> 00:08:14,528
when I first started,
when you went to a crime scene,
177
00:08:14,595 --> 00:08:17,264
you wore your
grubbiest tennis shoes, jeans,
178
00:08:17,331 --> 00:08:19,666
and shirt
because if it got contaminated,
179
00:08:19,733 --> 00:08:21,835
you just threw it away.
180
00:08:21,902 --> 00:08:23,604
When HIV came along,
181
00:08:23,670 --> 00:08:26,073
now we had to start
taking more precautions.
182
00:08:26,139 --> 00:08:29,276
So, now we'd have coveralls,
wear gloves.
183
00:08:29,343 --> 00:08:32,880
Now with DNA, they have to go
fully suited
184
00:08:32,946 --> 00:08:35,816
because they can't leave
any sweat or hair,
185
00:08:35,883 --> 00:08:37,618
or anything
at that crime scene
186
00:08:37,684 --> 00:08:39,520
that may contaminate
the DNA.
187
00:08:39,586 --> 00:08:41,421
- Norman: Like some kind
of a hazmat suit?
188
00:08:41,488 --> 00:08:44,691
- Yeah, they wear
a total hazmat suit and mask,
189
00:08:44,758 --> 00:08:46,293
so they leave no,
190
00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,696
none of their own DNA
to contaminate the crime scene,
191
00:08:49,763 --> 00:08:52,199
and it gets pretty warm
working in one of those suits
192
00:08:52,266 --> 00:08:54,001
for several hours.
193
00:08:54,067 --> 00:08:57,604
DNA changes the whole world of
forensics when it's developed.
194
00:08:57,671 --> 00:08:59,306
- Norman: Sure, yeah.
- 'Cause initially,
195
00:08:59,373 --> 00:09:02,876
the only way we could make
a unique identification
196
00:09:02,943 --> 00:09:05,112
was via fingerprints.
197
00:09:05,179 --> 00:09:06,380
Now comes DNA.
198
00:09:06,446 --> 00:09:10,484
Now we have a second way
to make a unique identification.
199
00:09:10,551 --> 00:09:12,219
- In terms of DNA
200
00:09:13,887 --> 00:09:17,357
and the repercussions
that it has...
201
00:09:19,259 --> 00:09:22,796
it really has revolutionized
in the last--
202
00:09:22,863 --> 00:09:26,767
how long has it been,
since the late '60s, I guess?
203
00:09:26,834 --> 00:09:29,436
- DNA began
in private laboratories.
204
00:09:29,503 --> 00:09:34,842
Then the FBI started doing DNA,
probably late '70s, '80s,
205
00:09:35,509 --> 00:09:38,412
and then the FBI
gets involved,
206
00:09:39,146 --> 00:09:40,848
and then eventually
the state labs
207
00:09:40,914 --> 00:09:42,549
start getting involved.
208
00:09:42,616 --> 00:09:44,718
But we probably
weren't involved with DNA
209
00:09:44,785 --> 00:09:47,354
until somewhere
in the '90s
210
00:09:48,121 --> 00:09:50,257
would be the start
of the DNA
211
00:09:50,324 --> 00:09:51,692
at the Wisconsin Crime Lab.
212
00:09:51,758 --> 00:09:53,327
- Was there anything
like a DNA bank,
213
00:09:53,393 --> 00:09:54,928
like there is
a fingerprint bank?
214
00:09:54,995 --> 00:09:56,763
- There is.
215
00:09:56,830 --> 00:09:58,498
The state has one.
216
00:09:59,399 --> 00:10:03,904
If we don't have a suspect
or we don't find the DNA,
217
00:10:03,971 --> 00:10:06,707
we find DNA,
but we don't have a suspect,
218
00:10:06,773 --> 00:10:09,076
then we will go
to our data bank.
219
00:10:09,142 --> 00:10:11,712
These are hundreds
of thousands
220
00:10:11,778 --> 00:10:15,048
of DNA profiles
in a computer system
221
00:10:15,115 --> 00:10:17,251
submitted
by law enforcement.
222
00:10:17,317 --> 00:10:19,753
If you're charged
with a misdemeanor
223
00:10:19,820 --> 00:10:23,423
or a felony crime
in the state of Wisconsin,
224
00:10:23,490 --> 00:10:27,327
you must submit a DNA sample
to the crime lab,
225
00:10:27,394 --> 00:10:29,730
and that DNA profile
will be developed
226
00:10:29,796 --> 00:10:32,499
and put into the database.
227
00:10:32,566 --> 00:10:34,668
If we can't find it
in our database,
228
00:10:34,735 --> 00:10:38,405
then we will go to--
we'll submit it to the FBI
229
00:10:38,472 --> 00:10:39,740
and their database,
230
00:10:39,806 --> 00:10:43,710
and they have access
to every state DNA database.
231
00:10:43,777 --> 00:10:46,713
- But that DNA is collected
through some
232
00:10:46,780 --> 00:10:50,584
high or low-level infraction
of the law?
233
00:10:52,152 --> 00:10:55,956
It's not like they
can just get it off of anybody
234
00:10:56,023 --> 00:10:57,558
and under any circumstances?
- Right.
235
00:10:57,624 --> 00:10:59,159
You would--
You have to have been charged
236
00:10:59,226 --> 00:11:01,929
either with a misdemeanor
or a felony crime
237
00:11:01,995 --> 00:11:06,600
for them to require you
to submit a DNA sample, yeah.
238
00:11:06,667 --> 00:11:08,836
If you're picked up
on a speeding charge,
239
00:11:08,902 --> 00:11:11,004
they will not collect
a DNA sample.
240
00:11:11,071 --> 00:11:13,173
- Not yet. [chuckles]
- Yeah.
241
00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,076
- Norman: Were you dealing
at all with fingerprints?
242
00:11:16,143 --> 00:11:19,546
- Only in terms of
collecting them at crime scene.
243
00:11:19,613 --> 00:11:21,281
- So, oh, so you were
collecting them?
244
00:11:21,348 --> 00:11:24,918
- Yeah, as part
of the field response team.
245
00:11:24,985 --> 00:11:26,753
And routinely,
246
00:11:26,820 --> 00:11:29,623
of course, my fingerprints
would be on record
247
00:11:29,690 --> 00:11:33,093
for-- with the crime lab
and even the FBI,
248
00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:35,095
'cause it may happen
249
00:11:35,162 --> 00:11:37,331
that I get a plastic baggie
filled with cocaine.
250
00:11:37,397 --> 00:11:38,899
I do my analysis,
251
00:11:38,966 --> 00:11:40,667
and after I've done
my analysis, say,
252
00:11:40,734 --> 00:11:43,370
"Oh, by the way, we want that
checked for fingerprints."
253
00:11:43,437 --> 00:11:45,973
So, the bag would have to go
down to the ident unit.
254
00:11:46,039 --> 00:11:47,774
So, they have to have
my prints on record
255
00:11:47,841 --> 00:11:49,710
to eliminate my prints
on that bag.
256
00:11:49,776 --> 00:11:51,245
- Norman: Of course, yeah.
257
00:11:51,311 --> 00:11:55,482
What sort of firearm collection
does the lab have?
258
00:11:55,549 --> 00:11:57,284
- They have a very large one.
[Norman chuckles]
259
00:11:57,351 --> 00:12:00,287
The Milwaukee and Madison lab
260
00:12:00,354 --> 00:12:03,524
would have a larger
handgun collection.
261
00:12:03,590 --> 00:12:06,860
The Wausau lab would have
a larger rifle collection.
262
00:12:06,927 --> 00:12:09,263
- Just because of the
greater likelihood
263
00:12:09,329 --> 00:12:10,931
that there's gonna be
hunting over that way?
264
00:12:10,998 --> 00:12:12,165
- Correct, correct.
265
00:12:12,232 --> 00:12:13,567
- You wouldn't
have thought of that.
266
00:12:13,634 --> 00:12:15,169
- We have some
pretty unique guns
267
00:12:15,235 --> 00:12:17,704
in our collection as well.
[clears throat]
268
00:12:17,771 --> 00:12:20,774
They'll keep those weapons
for purposes of
269
00:12:20,841 --> 00:12:22,843
if one comes in
and it's missing a part,
270
00:12:22,910 --> 00:12:25,245
we can take the part off
of our gun,
271
00:12:25,312 --> 00:12:26,914
put it onto the suspect gun,
272
00:12:26,980 --> 00:12:28,715
and test fire it.
- Norman: Test the gun.
273
00:12:28,782 --> 00:12:30,584
- Once we don't have a use
for those,
274
00:12:30,651 --> 00:12:33,353
those guns
tend to be destroyed.
275
00:12:33,420 --> 00:12:35,189
- That would be the same
for bullets.
276
00:12:35,255 --> 00:12:37,858
You must have quite
a bullet collection then.
277
00:12:37,925 --> 00:12:40,928
And how do you make
these collections?
278
00:12:40,994 --> 00:12:43,463
- Well, they're collected
over the years,
279
00:12:43,530 --> 00:12:48,268
but we have limited space
and storage for these.
280
00:12:48,335 --> 00:12:50,070
And after a while,
if they get old enough,
281
00:12:50,137 --> 00:12:52,139
they're of no use anymore
at that point.
282
00:12:52,206 --> 00:12:54,274
And they would just be
historical.
283
00:12:54,341 --> 00:12:56,310
Initially,
when I started 34 years ago,
284
00:12:56,376 --> 00:12:58,212
we had very little room
for storage,
285
00:12:58,278 --> 00:13:02,516
so we would periodically be
getting rid of things like that.
286
00:13:02,583 --> 00:13:06,887
- Getting into your specialty,
it was drugs, drug testing.
287
00:13:06,954 --> 00:13:10,858
How does that work in terms
of a crime scene?
288
00:13:10,924 --> 00:13:13,527
What is there to test
to determine drugs?
289
00:13:13,594 --> 00:13:15,762
- Well, most of the drugs
that we get,
290
00:13:15,829 --> 00:13:17,064
essentially
all the drugs we get,
291
00:13:17,130 --> 00:13:19,066
would come
from law enforcement,
292
00:13:19,132 --> 00:13:21,835
and they'd either take
that from somebody
293
00:13:21,902 --> 00:13:23,904
that had it
in their possession,
294
00:13:23,971 --> 00:13:26,907
or perhaps it was
an undercover investigation
295
00:13:26,974 --> 00:13:28,675
where there was a sale
296
00:13:28,742 --> 00:13:31,712
and law enforcement
came across that,
297
00:13:31,778 --> 00:13:33,013
maybe a vehicle stop,
298
00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,148
and they find drugs
in the car.
299
00:13:35,215 --> 00:13:37,618
They'll submit that
to the laboratory.
300
00:13:37,684 --> 00:13:39,586
We will do
the chemical analysis
301
00:13:39,653 --> 00:13:41,822
to determine
what controlled substance
302
00:13:41,889 --> 00:13:43,857
may or may not
be present
303
00:13:43,924 --> 00:13:45,492
and, again,
file a report
304
00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:49,096
and return that
to the law enforcement.
305
00:13:49,162 --> 00:13:51,532
- Who does the autopsies?
306
00:13:51,598 --> 00:13:54,201
- The autopsies,
most of the autopsies
307
00:13:54,268 --> 00:13:57,404
when I was there were done
by Dr. Huntington
308
00:13:57,471 --> 00:14:00,507
at the UW hospital
here in Madison.
309
00:14:02,109 --> 00:14:06,046
I don't know who does their
current autopsies for them.
310
00:14:06,113 --> 00:14:08,248
But generally large, again,
311
00:14:08,315 --> 00:14:10,017
large agencies
in Milwaukee County
312
00:14:10,083 --> 00:14:12,553
would have their own
forensic pathologist
313
00:14:12,619 --> 00:14:13,887
to do autopsies.
314
00:14:13,954 --> 00:14:15,289
But most state agencies
315
00:14:15,355 --> 00:14:19,159
used Dr. Huntington
and the UW hospital.
316
00:14:19,226 --> 00:14:21,762
- And they then relay the
information to the crime lab,
317
00:14:21,828 --> 00:14:23,964
or what's the track of it?
318
00:14:24,031 --> 00:14:25,232
- No, we would actually,
319
00:14:25,299 --> 00:14:29,369
if it's a homicide
or a suspected homicide autopsy,
320
00:14:29,436 --> 00:14:32,139
they would request
the services of the crime lab.
321
00:14:32,206 --> 00:14:36,910
We would go to those autopsies,
photograph the autopsy.
322
00:14:36,977 --> 00:14:40,047
The pathologist would
typically collect the samples,
323
00:14:40,113 --> 00:14:43,350
turn them over to us
at the autopsy.
324
00:14:43,417 --> 00:14:45,118
We'd again seal those samples,
325
00:14:45,185 --> 00:14:47,054
take them back
to the laboratory,
326
00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,423
and distribute them
for analysis.
327
00:14:49,489 --> 00:14:51,425
- Every now and then,
and you mentioned this earlier,
328
00:14:51,491 --> 00:14:55,395
I believe,
chain of custody for evidence,
329
00:14:56,063 --> 00:14:59,466
every now and then that seems
to come into question in a case.
330
00:14:59,533 --> 00:15:03,403
- Yeah, defense will typically
challenge the chain of custody.
331
00:15:03,470 --> 00:15:06,607
It starts from the minute
that evidence is collected,
332
00:15:06,673 --> 00:15:08,008
even before that.
333
00:15:08,075 --> 00:15:11,144
The police
have to verify that
334
00:15:11,211 --> 00:15:13,947
they had custody
of that scene,
335
00:15:14,014 --> 00:15:16,049
and in sense,
custody of any evidence
336
00:15:16,116 --> 00:15:18,385
that may
have been collected.
337
00:15:18,452 --> 00:15:20,621
Once it's collected,
it is sealed,
338
00:15:20,687 --> 00:15:23,223
and it is recorded
and documented.
339
00:15:23,290 --> 00:15:25,058
And then, there is a written,
340
00:15:25,125 --> 00:15:27,661
recorded document
of that evidence
341
00:15:27,728 --> 00:15:30,864
every time it moves
from one location to another
342
00:15:30,931 --> 00:15:35,869
until it is eventually returned
to the submitting agency.
343
00:15:35,936 --> 00:15:38,438
- What kind of experiences
have you had
344
00:15:38,505 --> 00:15:41,842
with drug testing
in terms of the way
345
00:15:42,409 --> 00:15:45,112
they have affected cases?
346
00:15:45,179 --> 00:15:47,848
- Well, the most common drugs
we had
347
00:15:47,915 --> 00:15:51,118
back when I was doing analysis,
probably still true today,
348
00:15:51,185 --> 00:15:54,188
would be
for the presence of THC,
349
00:15:54,788 --> 00:15:57,891
the biologically active
material from marijuana.
350
00:15:57,958 --> 00:15:59,927
That would be
the number one case
351
00:15:59,993 --> 00:16:02,796
in terms of number,
type of items submitted.
352
00:16:02,863 --> 00:16:07,401
And then cocaine, heroin,
and the whole board of drugs
353
00:16:07,467 --> 00:16:09,436
that you can imagine.
354
00:16:09,503 --> 00:16:12,406
And I would end up
going to court
355
00:16:14,308 --> 00:16:16,743
and testifying
in drug identification
356
00:16:16,810 --> 00:16:18,512
about 500 times.
357
00:16:19,947 --> 00:16:23,483
- Give us some examples
of what specifically
358
00:16:23,550 --> 00:16:25,752
you would be finding
in some of these cases,
359
00:16:25,819 --> 00:16:27,087
THC in particular.
360
00:16:27,154 --> 00:16:31,191
I mean, you wouldn't think
ordinarily that marijuana
361
00:16:31,258 --> 00:16:34,595
would play large
in a homicide case.
362
00:16:35,062 --> 00:16:38,999
- Well, typically in drug,
in homicide cases,
363
00:16:39,066 --> 00:16:42,236
you don't find a lot
of drugs involved.
364
00:16:42,302 --> 00:16:47,574
I've only had, of the more
than 50 crime scenes I went to,
365
00:16:47,641 --> 00:16:49,309
I probably only had a handful
366
00:16:49,376 --> 00:16:52,446
in which drugs were actually
found at the crime scene,
367
00:16:52,513 --> 00:16:54,481
which may
or may not have anything
368
00:16:54,548 --> 00:16:56,416
to do with the homicide.
369
00:16:56,483 --> 00:16:58,919
They could have been
under the influence of drugs.
370
00:16:58,986 --> 00:17:00,687
Maybe not.
371
00:17:00,754 --> 00:17:02,256
If there were drugs there,
372
00:17:02,322 --> 00:17:05,459
I would again identify what
the controlled substance was.
373
00:17:05,526 --> 00:17:08,395
Toxicology might be
responsible for determining
374
00:17:08,462 --> 00:17:11,498
if that person was under the
influence of those drugs
375
00:17:11,565 --> 00:17:14,401
during the time of that
homicide or crime scene.
376
00:17:14,468 --> 00:17:17,671
- You in your 34 years
had experiences where, well,
377
00:17:17,738 --> 00:17:22,876
let's check this seemingly
harmless piece of evidence
378
00:17:23,911 --> 00:17:25,946
and see what we find.
379
00:17:26,013 --> 00:17:28,015
- I had--
Dane County Metro
380
00:17:28,081 --> 00:17:31,785
brought in a big black
plastic bag, a garbage bag,
381
00:17:31,852 --> 00:17:33,187
and I said,
"What do you have?"
382
00:17:33,253 --> 00:17:34,354
And they opened it
383
00:17:34,421 --> 00:17:36,190
and it was filled
with sticks and leaves.
384
00:17:36,256 --> 00:17:37,391
- Okay.
- And I said,
385
00:17:37,457 --> 00:17:39,026
"What am I supposed to do
with this?"
386
00:17:39,092 --> 00:17:41,762
And they actually wanted it
checked for drugs.
387
00:17:41,828 --> 00:17:43,430
- Why?
- And I said, "Really?"
388
00:17:43,497 --> 00:17:44,698
And they said,
"Well, yeah."
389
00:17:44,765 --> 00:17:48,802
They thought or they had heard
it contained heroin.
390
00:17:48,869 --> 00:17:52,339
Again, who would think
of having a garbage bag
391
00:17:52,406 --> 00:17:54,174
thrown on your porch
with sticks and leaves
392
00:17:54,241 --> 00:17:56,009
that it would contain
heroin?
393
00:17:56,076 --> 00:17:57,511
And I did the analysis
on that.
394
00:17:57,578 --> 00:18:00,247
And sure enough,
it actually contained heroin.
395
00:18:00,314 --> 00:18:04,184
- Well, you have kind of piqued
my interest in the--
396
00:18:04,251 --> 00:18:06,520
in the pizza
and the cocaine.
397
00:18:06,587 --> 00:18:08,889
What was the outcome of that?
398
00:18:08,956 --> 00:18:10,324
- The interesting one on that
399
00:18:10,390 --> 00:18:12,993
was they brought a pizza in
and the--
400
00:18:13,060 --> 00:18:15,229
the case was
an individual bought this pizza
401
00:18:15,295 --> 00:18:18,031
at a convenience store,
took it home and cooked it,
402
00:18:18,098 --> 00:18:19,433
ate it and got sick
403
00:18:19,499 --> 00:18:22,069
and goes to the hospital,
and he--
404
00:18:22,135 --> 00:18:23,303
They do a drug screen
405
00:18:23,370 --> 00:18:26,406
and it comes back positive
for cocaine.
406
00:18:26,473 --> 00:18:29,610
So, he wanted me to analyze it
for the presence of cocaine.
407
00:18:29,676 --> 00:18:30,978
And then, he wanted to know
408
00:18:31,044 --> 00:18:33,547
if cocaine had been put on
the pizza prior to
409
00:18:33,614 --> 00:18:35,782
or after it had been cooked,
410
00:18:35,849 --> 00:18:37,518
'cause he was going to file
a lawsuit
411
00:18:37,584 --> 00:18:41,488
against the convenience store
and the pizza manufacturer.
412
00:18:41,555 --> 00:18:46,493
So, I did the analysis,
showed that it was cocaine,
413
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,629
and even before the,
I did the analysis,
414
00:18:48,695 --> 00:18:50,631
I told him that it
was put on the pizza
415
00:18:50,697 --> 00:18:52,533
after it had been cooked,
416
00:18:52,599 --> 00:18:55,169
and he didn't know
how I knew that.
417
00:18:55,235 --> 00:18:56,570
And when I looked
at the pizza,
418
00:18:56,637 --> 00:19:00,207
I could see solid white chunks
of white material
419
00:19:00,274 --> 00:19:02,242
on the top of the pizza.
420
00:19:02,309 --> 00:19:04,278
That was crack cocaine.
421
00:19:04,344 --> 00:19:06,446
I knew
that crack cocaine melts
422
00:19:06,513 --> 00:19:09,183
at 97 degrees centigrade.
423
00:19:09,249 --> 00:19:11,285
When you cook a pizza,
you cook it at about
424
00:19:11,351 --> 00:19:13,020
400 degrees Fahrenheit...
- Right.
425
00:19:13,086 --> 00:19:15,956
- ...which is 212 degrees
centigrade.
426
00:19:16,023 --> 00:19:17,658
If it had been put
on the pizza
427
00:19:17,724 --> 00:19:19,259
prior to it being cooked,
428
00:19:19,326 --> 00:19:22,095
it would have been totally
melted into the pizza.
429
00:19:22,162 --> 00:19:24,097
But the fact I could
still see the solid,
430
00:19:24,164 --> 00:19:27,668
slightly melted into the pizza
meant the pizza was hot,
431
00:19:27,734 --> 00:19:30,938
but cocaine had been put on
after it had been cooked.
432
00:19:31,004 --> 00:19:32,339
- So, there goes the--
- Needless--
433
00:19:32,406 --> 00:19:33,507
Yeah, needless to say,
434
00:19:33,574 --> 00:19:36,743
there was no lawsuit filed
in that case.
435
00:19:36,810 --> 00:19:41,114
- What form did your evidence
that you presented take?
436
00:19:41,181 --> 00:19:42,950
Did you-- Were you
testifying in that case
437
00:19:43,016 --> 00:19:45,085
or it probably wouldn't
have gotten to that point?
438
00:19:45,152 --> 00:19:46,253
- No, that one never--
439
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:47,955
That one
never went to court.
440
00:19:48,021 --> 00:19:49,523
Nor did the one in--
441
00:19:49,590 --> 00:19:52,593
with the leaf material
ever go to court.
442
00:19:52,659 --> 00:19:54,394
Many of those--
443
00:19:54,461 --> 00:19:57,364
I probably would work
somewhere in the area
444
00:19:57,431 --> 00:20:00,334
of 5,000 to 6,000
drug cases a year.
445
00:20:01,502 --> 00:20:03,270
And we'd only
end up going to court
446
00:20:03,337 --> 00:20:06,240
maybe on 50 of those
in the year.
447
00:20:08,408 --> 00:20:10,644
- What other court cases
448
00:20:11,245 --> 00:20:13,747
in which you actually
testified come to mind
449
00:20:13,814 --> 00:20:15,716
in those instances?
450
00:20:18,285 --> 00:20:19,853
- I had some.
451
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:24,558
Some of the larger drug cases
that I worked, testified on,
452
00:20:24,625 --> 00:20:28,395
would be, like, two kilos
delivery of cocaine
453
00:20:28,462 --> 00:20:32,799
here in the Madison area,
large samples of LSD.
454
00:20:34,101 --> 00:20:36,770
It was 16,000 tablets of LSD.
455
00:20:37,771 --> 00:20:40,607
Heroin cases,
some of the more--
456
00:20:40,674 --> 00:20:42,576
not the common ones.
457
00:20:43,010 --> 00:20:44,144
The common ones
where you went,
458
00:20:44,211 --> 00:20:45,412
marijuana, cocaine,
459
00:20:45,479 --> 00:20:48,482
those were just routine cases
of going to court.
460
00:20:48,549 --> 00:20:50,284
But you would
periodically get these
461
00:20:50,350 --> 00:20:53,654
very large quantities
of drugs.
462
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,089
And then, I ended up
not going to court,
463
00:20:56,156 --> 00:20:59,026
but actually analyzing
evidence of a police officer
464
00:20:59,092 --> 00:21:01,461
who had drugs
in his possession.
465
00:21:01,528 --> 00:21:04,198
And I did that on behalf
of the Milwaukee lab
466
00:21:04,264 --> 00:21:07,334
because it was
a Milwaukee police officer.
467
00:21:07,401 --> 00:21:10,871
- Well, let's look
at some cases then
468
00:21:10,938 --> 00:21:15,709
that involved the crime labs
during your 34-year tenure
469
00:21:15,776 --> 00:21:20,447
and whether related
specifically to drugs or not.
470
00:21:20,514 --> 00:21:23,784
- The only crime scene
that I can say directly
471
00:21:23,851 --> 00:21:27,654
that the drug unit played
a major role in,
472
00:21:28,188 --> 00:21:31,959
in fact, the only role was--
were clandestine labs,
473
00:21:32,025 --> 00:21:34,828
which we would go
and process.
474
00:21:35,462 --> 00:21:37,130
I spent four days,
475
00:21:37,764 --> 00:21:40,400
four or five days
at a clandestine lab
476
00:21:40,467 --> 00:21:45,005
in northern Wisconsin, which was
a methamphetamine lab.
477
00:21:45,072 --> 00:21:46,340
And at the time,
478
00:21:46,406 --> 00:21:49,409
it was the second-largest
methamphetamine lab
479
00:21:49,476 --> 00:21:51,278
in the United States.
480
00:21:51,345 --> 00:21:55,716
We found 400 pounds
of finished methamphetamine.
481
00:21:55,782 --> 00:21:57,985
Two hundred at the scene,
and a year later,
482
00:21:58,051 --> 00:22:01,655
the other 200
in a dry, abandoned well
483
00:22:01,722 --> 00:22:03,390
in the next county over.
484
00:22:03,457 --> 00:22:05,893
- Was that coincidental,
that well discovery,
485
00:22:05,959 --> 00:22:09,162
or was there some kind
of clue that led you to it?
486
00:22:09,229 --> 00:22:12,533
- Well, what led to it
was a law enforc--
487
00:22:12,599 --> 00:22:16,303
The power company
notified the sheriff
488
00:22:16,370 --> 00:22:18,839
that there was
a non-working farm
489
00:22:18,906 --> 00:22:20,440
using an excess amount
490
00:22:20,507 --> 00:22:22,709
of electrical power.
- Uh-huh.
491
00:22:22,776 --> 00:22:24,578
- And there happened
to be a deputy
492
00:22:24,645 --> 00:22:27,614
who was also
a licensed electrician.
493
00:22:27,681 --> 00:22:29,650
And he saw
this excessive amount,
494
00:22:29,716 --> 00:22:34,521
and he goes out to investigate,
and he essentially stumbles
495
00:22:34,588 --> 00:22:38,592
across this huge
clandestine laboratory.
496
00:22:39,126 --> 00:22:41,762
- That must have been one
of your easier cases
497
00:22:41,828 --> 00:22:42,930
to determine, though.
498
00:22:42,996 --> 00:22:45,499
You have 400 pounds
of methamphetamine.
499
00:22:45,566 --> 00:22:47,568
- Yeah, that was the--
500
00:22:48,368 --> 00:22:52,806
The difficulty of that one
was not processing it,
501
00:22:52,873 --> 00:22:55,275
but we actually
had to dismantle it.
502
00:22:55,342 --> 00:22:57,211
And between the processing,
503
00:22:57,277 --> 00:22:58,712
the recording,
and the dismantling,
504
00:22:58,779 --> 00:23:00,848
that took us over four days
505
00:23:00,914 --> 00:23:04,484
and we were working
10 to 12 hours a day.
506
00:23:04,551 --> 00:23:07,521
And so, we had this
huge amount of material
507
00:23:07,588 --> 00:23:10,490
that we had to store
and retain.
508
00:23:10,858 --> 00:23:13,293
Fortunately, the crime lab
didn't have to do that.
509
00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:16,597
The Department of Criminal
Investigation had to do that.
510
00:23:16,663 --> 00:23:18,899
And after three or four years
later, they said,
511
00:23:18,966 --> 00:23:21,735
"We wish we had just destroyed
it instead of storing it,"
512
00:23:21,802 --> 00:23:22,903
because it was running up
513
00:23:22,970 --> 00:23:26,540
a pretty big bill
just for the storage.
514
00:23:26,607 --> 00:23:30,410
- In some of these
other cases, you're...
515
00:23:31,945 --> 00:23:34,348
you've got a lot of evidence
that's in your custody
516
00:23:34,414 --> 00:23:37,851
for some period of time,
and then that you're--
517
00:23:37,918 --> 00:23:41,255
then you're issuing a report
based on your findings
518
00:23:41,321 --> 00:23:43,290
to law enforcement.
519
00:23:43,357 --> 00:23:45,025
Anyone else?
520
00:23:45,859 --> 00:23:47,494
- No, typically
it's just gonna go
521
00:23:47,561 --> 00:23:51,398
to law enforcement
and the county prosecutor
522
00:23:51,465 --> 00:23:53,600
for purposes of court.
523
00:23:54,668 --> 00:23:59,840
We will hold on to that evidence
essentially for quite,
524
00:23:59,907 --> 00:24:02,142
quite a while and then
eventually, we'll return it
525
00:24:02,209 --> 00:24:06,046
to the submitting agency
and they can hold on to it.
526
00:24:06,113 --> 00:24:09,349
If we have very large amounts,
say we had a marijuana field,
527
00:24:09,416 --> 00:24:11,585
we would take samples
528
00:24:11,652 --> 00:24:13,220
and then we would get
a court order
529
00:24:13,287 --> 00:24:16,623
to destroy any
remaining material.
530
00:24:18,125 --> 00:24:21,328
- And now, let's get into some
of the Wisconsin cases...
531
00:24:21,395 --> 00:24:23,263
- Sure.
- ...that we mentioned
532
00:24:23,330 --> 00:24:24,898
at the beginning.
533
00:24:24,965 --> 00:24:30,103
Some of these made headlines
for spectacular reasons.
534
00:24:30,971 --> 00:24:34,508
And you were involved
in a fair number of these.
535
00:24:34,575 --> 00:24:38,712
Which are the ones that stand
out in your experience?
536
00:24:38,779 --> 00:24:41,281
- Well, the one
that stands out,
537
00:24:41,348 --> 00:24:43,183
not for me,
but for the crime lab,
538
00:24:43,250 --> 00:24:46,019
it is the one that is probably
most remembered
539
00:24:46,086 --> 00:24:47,788
in the state of Wisconsin.
540
00:24:47,855 --> 00:24:50,858
And that was in 1957
with Ed Gein,
541
00:24:52,292 --> 00:24:56,296
in which he murdered
two women up in the area
542
00:24:56,997 --> 00:24:59,666
of Plainfield, Wisconsin.
543
00:24:59,733 --> 00:25:02,536
- Norman: What was the crime
lab's involvement in that?
544
00:25:02,603 --> 00:25:07,474
- Robert: We were called in to
help process that crime scene.
545
00:25:07,541 --> 00:25:09,743
We had two analysts
that went up there.
546
00:25:09,810 --> 00:25:11,812
They would process,
photograph,
547
00:25:11,879 --> 00:25:14,281
and collect evidence
of that crime scene
548
00:25:14,348 --> 00:25:16,917
and bring it back
for purposes of analysis.
549
00:25:16,984 --> 00:25:19,319
- Norman: I think we're looking
at the kitchen
550
00:25:19,386 --> 00:25:21,121
in that crime scene now,
aren't we?
551
00:25:21,188 --> 00:25:24,024
- Robert: Yeah, that was
the kitchen of Ed Gein's house
552
00:25:24,091 --> 00:25:28,495
when the crime lab showed up
to process that crime scene.
553
00:25:28,562 --> 00:25:30,397
- Norman:
Where could you begin?
554
00:25:30,464 --> 00:25:34,368
- Robert: Well, that, that's
where it becomes significant
555
00:25:34,434 --> 00:25:37,905
when we say a photo is
worth a thousand words.
556
00:25:37,971 --> 00:25:41,008
You can't describe a scene
like that.
557
00:25:41,074 --> 00:25:44,178
Because if I say that this
kitchen is a mess,
558
00:25:44,244 --> 00:25:45,379
for somebody
that might mean
559
00:25:45,445 --> 00:25:47,581
that they left their dishes
in their sink
560
00:25:47,648 --> 00:25:49,850
and didn't clean
off their counter.
561
00:25:49,917 --> 00:25:55,122
And so, interpretation can mean
many things just by words.
562
00:25:55,189 --> 00:25:58,292
And therefore the photography
becomes very important
563
00:25:58,358 --> 00:26:01,728
for crime scene investigations
and testimony.
564
00:26:01,795 --> 00:26:04,331
- How did the Ed Gein case
proceed then
565
00:26:04,398 --> 00:26:06,333
from the crime lab
standpoint?
566
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,735
- We would analyze
the evidence.
567
00:26:08,802 --> 00:26:10,571
I'm not sure how much
of that evidence
568
00:26:10,637 --> 00:26:12,439
was actually used.
569
00:26:14,541 --> 00:26:16,710
Because we didn't
have DNA back then,
570
00:26:16,777 --> 00:26:19,213
so we couldn't do DNA analysis.
571
00:26:19,279 --> 00:26:22,516
They may have done
some blood typing.
572
00:26:22,583 --> 00:26:25,152
He was ruled insane
in 1958.
573
00:26:26,887 --> 00:26:28,755
He was--
I should say he was ruled
574
00:26:28,822 --> 00:26:32,492
not capable of acting
in his defense.
575
00:26:32,559 --> 00:26:34,127
And he was ruled insane
and sent
576
00:26:34,194 --> 00:26:37,464
to Central Mental Hospital
in Waupun.
577
00:26:37,531 --> 00:26:39,466
Ten years later, in 1968,
578
00:26:39,533 --> 00:26:43,637
he was ruled competent
to participate in his defense.
579
00:26:43,704 --> 00:26:47,875
And he will admit that
he did kill one of those two.
580
00:26:47,941 --> 00:26:50,410
He was never charged
with the second murder,
581
00:26:50,477 --> 00:26:53,780
although he admitted he killed
the second woman as well.
582
00:26:53,847 --> 00:26:54,982
And then ultimately,
583
00:26:55,048 --> 00:26:58,585
he was found innocent
by reason of insanity.
584
00:26:58,652 --> 00:27:00,087
- Wasn't he at least implicated
585
00:27:00,153 --> 00:27:01,488
in the death
of his brother, too,
586
00:27:01,555 --> 00:27:03,056
or was that pure speculation?
587
00:27:03,123 --> 00:27:07,127
- There is speculation
not only for his brother,
588
00:27:07,194 --> 00:27:09,396
but for his father as well.
589
00:27:09,463 --> 00:27:13,333
- There were some other
notable cases too, that are...
590
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,370
Are they still pre-DNA
by the time we get to,
591
00:27:16,436 --> 00:27:18,305
for example,
the Barbara Hoffman case?
592
00:27:18,372 --> 00:27:21,441
- That would still be DNA--
pre-DNA.
593
00:27:21,508 --> 00:27:23,410
In fact,
I think most of the ones
594
00:27:23,477 --> 00:27:26,213
that I went to would be pre-DNA.
595
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,951
DNA didn't come around until
the early 2000s or so.
596
00:27:32,886 --> 00:27:36,823
So, we would not have had DNA
during the Barbara Hoffman case.
597
00:27:36,890 --> 00:27:38,025
- And how did that proceed?
598
00:27:38,091 --> 00:27:39,760
That...
599
00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:42,829
Getting back to television
and perceptions
600
00:27:42,896 --> 00:27:44,865
having to do
with crime labs
601
00:27:44,932 --> 00:27:48,068
and definite solutions
to cases.
602
00:27:49,203 --> 00:27:52,139
This one got to be
a little tricky.
603
00:27:52,206 --> 00:27:53,841
- Yeah, it--
this one--
604
00:27:53,907 --> 00:27:56,643
This would be
the first homicide trial
605
00:27:56,710 --> 00:27:59,513
to be televised statewide.
606
00:27:59,580 --> 00:28:02,916
And she was charged
with the murder of two men,
607
00:28:02,983 --> 00:28:06,086
Harold Berge
and Gerald Davies.
608
00:28:06,153 --> 00:28:07,955
And upon her trial,
609
00:28:09,823 --> 00:28:14,127
she was found guilty
of killing Harry Berge
610
00:28:14,194 --> 00:28:16,797
but not guilty
of killing Gerald Davies.
611
00:28:16,864 --> 00:28:18,632
- Norman:
What was the evidence?
612
00:28:18,699 --> 00:28:23,403
- Well, the evidence was
Gerald Davies' testimony
613
00:28:23,470 --> 00:28:26,773
that he gave
during preliminary hearing
614
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:28,742
and other evidence.
615
00:28:29,376 --> 00:28:31,979
She used cyanide poisoning
616
00:28:32,045 --> 00:28:36,049
to kill both Gerald Davies
and Harry Berge.
617
00:28:37,985 --> 00:28:41,021
And so, the evidence there
was done based
618
00:28:41,088 --> 00:28:43,657
on toxicology
at the laboratory.
619
00:28:43,724 --> 00:28:45,158
It determined that
Gerald Davies
620
00:28:45,225 --> 00:28:48,262
had two and a half times
the lethal dose of cyanide.
621
00:28:48,328 --> 00:28:52,799
And Harry Berge had 35 times
the lethal dose of cyanide.
622
00:28:52,866 --> 00:28:53,967
Of course,
that was determined
623
00:28:54,034 --> 00:28:56,870
a year after he had been killed,
624
00:28:56,937 --> 00:28:58,939
because they will find
Gerald Davies
625
00:28:59,006 --> 00:29:00,674
dead in his bathtub.
626
00:29:00,741 --> 00:29:04,011
And upon the analysis
of Gerald Davies,
627
00:29:04,077 --> 00:29:05,579
they find the cyanide,
628
00:29:05,646 --> 00:29:08,782
which then leads back
to the reanalysis of Harry Berge
629
00:29:08,849 --> 00:29:11,952
and the finding
of cyanide there as well.
630
00:29:12,019 --> 00:29:13,620
- Do you
have a sense of why
631
00:29:13,687 --> 00:29:16,723
she wasn't convicted of both
if we're talking cyanide?
632
00:29:16,790 --> 00:29:20,060
It seemed
to have been the big clue,
633
00:29:20,127 --> 00:29:22,062
the big deciding factor
in one death.
634
00:29:22,129 --> 00:29:23,530
Why not both?
635
00:29:23,597 --> 00:29:27,534
- I don't really know, because
the ironic thing here is
636
00:29:27,601 --> 00:29:30,204
she had taken out
a life insurance policy
637
00:29:30,270 --> 00:29:35,509
of $35,000 on Harry Berge
and $750,000 on Gerald Davies.
638
00:29:37,477 --> 00:29:39,213
I once had a judge
who said to me
639
00:29:39,279 --> 00:29:40,814
that "There are two things
you never know:
640
00:29:40,881 --> 00:29:44,451
"What a jury is going to do
or what is on their mind.
641
00:29:44,518 --> 00:29:45,619
"What is on their mind,
642
00:29:45,686 --> 00:29:48,088
and how they will rule
in a case."
643
00:29:48,155 --> 00:29:51,525
And that seems to be
the situation here.
644
00:29:51,592 --> 00:29:53,360
Now,
Barbara Hoffman did make
645
00:29:53,427 --> 00:29:57,564
a very interesting statement
following her conviction,
646
00:29:57,631 --> 00:30:01,034
and I didn't know about this
until just recently.
647
00:30:01,101 --> 00:30:03,537
She was asked
if she had any statement
648
00:30:03,604 --> 00:30:05,472
to make about her conviction.
649
00:30:05,539 --> 00:30:09,243
And she will say that
"I am not guilty of the crime
650
00:30:09,309 --> 00:30:13,780
I have been charged with
and been found guilty of."
651
00:30:13,847 --> 00:30:18,485
Which led to many questions
as to what did she mean
652
00:30:18,552 --> 00:30:21,421
by this statement
that she had made.
653
00:30:21,488 --> 00:30:24,358
- What is the motive
in those slayings
654
00:30:24,424 --> 00:30:25,726
or the purported motive?
655
00:30:25,792 --> 00:30:28,295
What's the whole backstory
that led us up
656
00:30:28,362 --> 00:30:31,164
to these cyanide poisonings?
657
00:30:31,765 --> 00:30:37,104
- She was a biochemistry major
at the University of Wisconsin,
658
00:30:37,171 --> 00:30:41,441
and she drops out her
last semester and goes to work
659
00:30:41,508 --> 00:30:45,179
at a massage parlor
on the west side of Madison.
660
00:30:45,245 --> 00:30:50,150
She had access to cyanide
as a biochemistry student.
661
00:30:53,153 --> 00:30:55,289
But she also had ordered cyanide
662
00:30:55,355 --> 00:30:59,026
and supposedly had it sent to
the residence of Gerald Davies.
663
00:30:59,092 --> 00:31:02,129
So, she had access
to this cyanide.
664
00:31:02,196 --> 00:31:05,866
And of course, as a biochemist,
she would know what toxins
665
00:31:05,933 --> 00:31:09,269
would cause death,
such as cyanide.
666
00:31:09,770 --> 00:31:14,908
- Apparently wasn't concerned,
though, with detection.
667
00:31:14,975 --> 00:31:17,244
- The first one
with Harry Berge,
668
00:31:17,311 --> 00:31:20,247
it was never detected
until later,
669
00:31:20,314 --> 00:31:21,515
after Gerald Davies,
670
00:31:21,582 --> 00:31:23,183
because the tests
had never been run
671
00:31:23,250 --> 00:31:26,787
when it was never suspected that
she may have used cyanide.
672
00:31:26,854 --> 00:31:29,089
- So, the state crime lab
673
00:31:29,623 --> 00:31:32,526
didn't test for poison at all,
or just--
674
00:31:32,593 --> 00:31:34,862
- Not initially
with Harry Berge.
675
00:31:34,928 --> 00:31:36,430
No, they did not.
676
00:31:36,496 --> 00:31:39,600
Harry Berge had some
beatings around the head,
677
00:31:39,666 --> 00:31:43,370
and the initial analysis
was he may have died
678
00:31:43,437 --> 00:31:45,305
from the beating
of the head
679
00:31:45,372 --> 00:31:47,341
and there was no suspect
of cyanide.
680
00:31:47,407 --> 00:31:49,776
Now typically cyanide,
when they do an autopsy,
681
00:31:49,843 --> 00:31:52,379
they may be able to smell
that cyanide
682
00:31:52,446 --> 00:31:54,314
'cause it has a smell
of almonds.
683
00:31:54,381 --> 00:31:56,783
- Norman: Yes, famously.
- Nobody reported any of that.
684
00:31:56,850 --> 00:32:00,087
So, that test
was never actually run.
685
00:32:00,153 --> 00:32:02,022
Where it happened,
where it came about,
686
00:32:02,089 --> 00:32:03,323
which is kind of
interesting,
687
00:32:03,390 --> 00:32:05,125
is after they did
the toxicology,
688
00:32:05,192 --> 00:32:08,996
initial toxicology
on Gerald Davies,
689
00:32:09,062 --> 00:32:11,465
there was a bottle of Valium
sitting on the tub
690
00:32:11,532 --> 00:32:13,200
that he is dead in.
691
00:32:13,834 --> 00:32:16,537
The toxicology indicates
there is Valium
692
00:32:16,603 --> 00:32:17,938
in Gerald Davies' body,
693
00:32:18,005 --> 00:32:22,176
but not in sufficient quantity
to have caused death.
694
00:32:22,242 --> 00:32:25,179
After that,
another analyst at the lab
695
00:32:25,245 --> 00:32:27,781
happened to go
past the toxicology unit
696
00:32:27,848 --> 00:32:30,017
and asked if he'd determined
the cause of death
697
00:32:30,083 --> 00:32:31,185
of either one of them.
698
00:32:31,251 --> 00:32:32,452
And he said, "No."
699
00:32:32,519 --> 00:32:34,154
And he just
offhandedly said,
700
00:32:34,221 --> 00:32:35,989
"Did you check for cyanide?"
[Norman chuckles]
701
00:32:36,056 --> 00:32:39,193
And the toxicologist said,
"No, I never did."
702
00:32:39,259 --> 00:32:40,794
So, then he checked
Gerald Davies.
703
00:32:40,861 --> 00:32:41,962
That's when he comes up
704
00:32:42,029 --> 00:32:44,598
with two and a half times
the lethal dose.
705
00:32:44,665 --> 00:32:46,767
And now, he goes back
and checks Harry Berge
706
00:32:46,834 --> 00:32:49,469
and comes up with 35 times
the lethal dose.
707
00:32:49,536 --> 00:32:51,839
- So, this is what,
back in the 1980s?
708
00:32:51,905 --> 00:32:55,409
- Yeah, that would have been
in the 1980s, early 1980s.
709
00:32:55,475 --> 00:33:00,714
- What appears to us to be kind
of a large oversight today,
710
00:33:01,648 --> 00:33:03,317
would the testing
711
00:33:04,918 --> 00:33:08,388
likely overlook something
like that today?
712
00:33:08,455 --> 00:33:10,824
- I would say it
could still be a possibility,
713
00:33:10,891 --> 00:33:14,494
because if there is
no suspicion of something
714
00:33:14,561 --> 00:33:17,965
like that of poisoning,
let's say it's a gunshot.
715
00:33:18,031 --> 00:33:20,400
If it's a gunshot
that caused the death,
716
00:33:20,467 --> 00:33:24,538
we're not going to look
for cyanide or poisons.
717
00:33:24,605 --> 00:33:28,976
It wouldn't be pertinent
or even maybe necessary.
718
00:33:29,042 --> 00:33:32,513
Unless it's a totally
unknown cause,
719
00:33:33,347 --> 00:33:36,617
they may or may not check
for poisons.
720
00:33:36,683 --> 00:33:38,218
Obviously, if they're foaming
at the mouth
721
00:33:38,285 --> 00:33:40,587
or something like that,
which would be an indication
722
00:33:40,654 --> 00:33:44,391
of a poison or toxin,
they would check for that.
723
00:33:44,458 --> 00:33:46,159
But it probably
would not be done
724
00:33:46,226 --> 00:33:47,728
as a matter of routine.
725
00:33:47,794 --> 00:33:49,830
- Even today.
- Even today.
726
00:33:49,897 --> 00:33:52,099
- It's kind of interesting
that the cases
727
00:33:52,165 --> 00:33:53,901
we've been talking about
specifically,
728
00:33:53,967 --> 00:33:58,305
they don't have these
completely neat endings
729
00:33:59,606 --> 00:34:01,542
in terms of a conviction
in court
730
00:34:01,608 --> 00:34:02,743
based on the evidence.
731
00:34:02,809 --> 00:34:04,678
In the case
of the Barbara Hoffman,
732
00:34:04,745 --> 00:34:08,749
it's like, well, she had
that coy statement about
733
00:34:08,815 --> 00:34:11,518
"I was not guilty of the crime
I was convicted of,"
734
00:34:11,585 --> 00:34:13,120
but there were, what,
735
00:34:13,187 --> 00:34:15,889
at least one and maybe two
other victims that she
736
00:34:15,956 --> 00:34:18,859
could've been easily guilty of.
- Correct.
737
00:34:18,926 --> 00:34:22,963
- There's many conspiracies
on what actually happened,
738
00:34:23,030 --> 00:34:26,900
that perhaps Gerald Davies
had killed Harry Berge,
739
00:34:26,967 --> 00:34:30,237
and then Barbara Hoffman
killed Gerald Davies.
740
00:34:30,304 --> 00:34:31,572
Another conspiracy thought
741
00:34:31,638 --> 00:34:34,341
was she had the cyanide
in her home,
742
00:34:34,408 --> 00:34:36,243
and Harold Berge
would come home
743
00:34:36,310 --> 00:34:38,645
and drink coffee
and put sugar in,
744
00:34:38,712 --> 00:34:41,215
and that he accidentally
took the cyanide.
745
00:34:41,281 --> 00:34:43,217
So, there's many conspiracies.
746
00:34:43,283 --> 00:34:45,385
But my interpretation
of what she said
747
00:34:45,452 --> 00:34:48,322
when she said,
"I am not guilty of the crime
748
00:34:48,388 --> 00:34:50,524
that I have been found
guilty of."
749
00:34:50,591 --> 00:34:52,392
What she was saying is,
750
00:34:52,459 --> 00:34:55,829
"I indeed did kill
Gerald Davies,
751
00:34:55,896 --> 00:34:58,599
but I did not kill
Harry Berge."
752
00:34:58,665 --> 00:35:01,768
Regardless, she ends up being
sentenced to life in prison,
753
00:35:01,835 --> 00:35:03,704
and she's still there today.
754
00:35:03,770 --> 00:35:06,039
- And in the case of Ed Gein,
755
00:35:06,106 --> 00:35:08,942
other murders
that he may well have committed.
756
00:35:09,009 --> 00:35:13,547
But was the idea that, well,
we've already got him on one,
757
00:35:13,614 --> 00:35:16,216
so we don't need to go to
the trouble of convicting him
758
00:35:16,283 --> 00:35:18,652
on these others or
just to write him off as insane?
759
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:20,521
- Yeah, back at that time,
760
00:35:20,587 --> 00:35:24,791
they didn't probably
need to go for the overkill.
761
00:35:24,858 --> 00:35:27,461
And in some cases,
they will charge with one
762
00:35:27,528 --> 00:35:28,929
and hold another.
763
00:35:28,996 --> 00:35:31,965
Because if you don't get
a conviction on the first one,
764
00:35:32,032 --> 00:35:35,269
you still have the second one
available to charge with.
765
00:35:35,335 --> 00:35:36,570
But he, as I mentioned,
766
00:35:36,637 --> 00:35:40,707
he did admit that he killed
both of those women.
767
00:35:40,774 --> 00:35:42,943
- Did you ever
have a sense that,
768
00:35:43,010 --> 00:35:44,111
"this one got away"
769
00:35:44,178 --> 00:35:46,113
despite the evidence
that you had found?
770
00:35:46,180 --> 00:35:48,815
- Perhaps the--
That, where that happened
771
00:35:48,882 --> 00:35:51,418
would be the
Kunz family murder,
772
00:35:51,485 --> 00:35:55,489
in which five family members
were murdered.
773
00:35:55,556 --> 00:36:00,160
And the suspect was charged
with all five murders.
774
00:36:00,227 --> 00:36:04,398
And when they get a search
warrant for his bedroom,
775
00:36:04,464 --> 00:36:07,267
they find a receipt for tires.
776
00:36:08,135 --> 00:36:10,237
For new tires
he had put on a vehicle
777
00:36:10,304 --> 00:36:13,440
that he had purchased
from the Kunz family.
778
00:36:13,507 --> 00:36:15,342
They actually
went to the gas station,
779
00:36:15,409 --> 00:36:18,011
found those tires,
and those tires
780
00:36:18,078 --> 00:36:20,180
that had been removed
from this vehicle
781
00:36:20,247 --> 00:36:24,151
matched tire impressions
at the crime scene.
782
00:36:24,218 --> 00:36:29,022
They also, and he had a pile
of gun shell casings,
783
00:36:29,089 --> 00:36:30,490
and one of those casings
784
00:36:30,557 --> 00:36:34,394
matched the gun shell casing
of the crime scene.
785
00:36:34,461 --> 00:36:37,264
He's charged with all five
murders of the Kunz family,
786
00:36:37,331 --> 00:36:40,267
and the jury comes back
with not guilty
787
00:36:40,334 --> 00:36:42,603
of any of those murders.
788
00:36:42,669 --> 00:36:44,204
- Well, just the feeling...
- He's freed.
789
00:36:44,271 --> 00:36:45,672
- ...it was circumstantial,
or what?
790
00:36:45,739 --> 00:36:47,574
- I don't know why
they didn't consider it.
791
00:36:47,641 --> 00:36:50,277
Again, it reminds me
of what the jury--
792
00:36:50,344 --> 00:36:51,945
the judge said about a jury.
793
00:36:52,012 --> 00:36:55,382
You'll never know what they're
gonna rule in a court of law.
794
00:36:55,449 --> 00:36:58,252
But he is not done
with the law.
795
00:36:58,819 --> 00:37:00,521
Six or seven years later,
796
00:37:00,587 --> 00:37:04,291
his ex-girlfriend goes
to the sheriff's and says,
797
00:37:04,358 --> 00:37:08,729
"He told me he killed all
of the Kunz family members."
798
00:37:08,795 --> 00:37:13,534
One of those he took to a swamp
in the next county over,
799
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,737
and he killed her
and left her in the swamp,
800
00:37:16,803 --> 00:37:19,540
and they will end up charging
him with kidnapping
801
00:37:19,606 --> 00:37:23,877
and false imprisonment
of that Kunz family member.
802
00:37:23,944 --> 00:37:25,879
And he will appeal
that all the way
803
00:37:25,946 --> 00:37:28,949
to the U.S. Supreme Court
as double jeopardy.
804
00:37:29,016 --> 00:37:30,250
They will not hear the case.
805
00:37:30,317 --> 00:37:32,519
They will send it back
to the lower court,
806
00:37:32,586 --> 00:37:35,322
and he will be found
guilty of kidnapping
807
00:37:35,389 --> 00:37:39,159
and false imprisonment
of that Kunz family member
808
00:37:39,226 --> 00:37:41,728
and be sentenced
to 31 years in prison.
809
00:37:41,795 --> 00:37:45,265
- But not convicted of murder?
- He cannot be.
810
00:37:45,332 --> 00:37:47,334
He was found not guilty.
811
00:37:47,401 --> 00:37:48,502
You cannot be charged again.
812
00:37:48,569 --> 00:37:50,103
- Oh, 'cause that would be
double jeopardy.
813
00:37:50,170 --> 00:37:54,074
- That would be
the double jeopardy, yeah.
814
00:37:54,474 --> 00:37:55,943
- You ever read
about these cases
815
00:37:56,009 --> 00:37:57,344
in the newspaper
and think,
816
00:37:57,411 --> 00:38:00,814
"Oh, that's interesting
how that turned out."
817
00:38:00,881 --> 00:38:02,482
- What I'm...
818
00:38:02,549 --> 00:38:05,519
What is more often
I'll find interesting is
819
00:38:05,586 --> 00:38:08,422
I'll either listen to the news
or read a newspaper
820
00:38:08,488 --> 00:38:11,191
and they'll talk about
how this victim was shot.
821
00:38:11,258 --> 00:38:15,262
And I have been to that crime
scene and nobody was ever shot.
822
00:38:15,329 --> 00:38:17,464
- Oh, really?
- So, what you hear in the news
823
00:38:17,531 --> 00:38:20,300
is not necessarily what happened
at the crime scene.
824
00:38:20,367 --> 00:38:22,436
So, I've had instances like that
825
00:38:22,503 --> 00:38:25,339
where the news media
is describing something
826
00:38:25,405 --> 00:38:27,207
that's totally different
than what I'm seeing
827
00:38:27,274 --> 00:38:29,243
at the crime scene,
yeah.
828
00:38:29,309 --> 00:38:31,745
- Do you ever read
crime fiction?
829
00:38:31,812 --> 00:38:33,347
- I read crime books
all the time.
830
00:38:33,413 --> 00:38:34,748
- Do you really?
- That's my--
831
00:38:34,815 --> 00:38:35,916
That's my top priority.
832
00:38:35,983 --> 00:38:37,818
I read tons of Patterson
833
00:38:37,885 --> 00:38:39,987
and Woods and so forth.
- Do you, uh-huh.
834
00:38:40,053 --> 00:38:42,422
- Primarily, I just read
crime scene books.
835
00:38:42,489 --> 00:38:44,091
Yeah.
836
00:38:44,157 --> 00:38:47,427
- No problem
with busman's holiday for you.
837
00:38:47,494 --> 00:38:51,231
What do you find there
in terms of credibility?
838
00:38:51,298 --> 00:38:53,467
Are there some
that rate higher than others
839
00:38:53,534 --> 00:38:55,602
in terms of the authors
840
00:38:55,669 --> 00:38:57,905
and the kinds of crimes
they write about?
841
00:38:57,971 --> 00:39:01,208
- They tend to be
pretty realistic,
842
00:39:01,975 --> 00:39:05,679
and people are
more conscious of what
843
00:39:05,746 --> 00:39:07,614
is recovered at crime scenes.
844
00:39:07,681 --> 00:39:11,451
So, even the criminal is
more aware of what goes on
845
00:39:11,518 --> 00:39:13,253
when they go to a crime scene,
846
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,489
and how to potentially
try to avoid
847
00:39:15,556 --> 00:39:18,358
leaving any evidence behind.
848
00:39:18,792 --> 00:39:20,761
But in many cases,
if it's a crime of passion,
849
00:39:20,827 --> 00:39:22,529
they're not thinking
of anything like that.
850
00:39:22,596 --> 00:39:24,698
And they may leave
behind evidence,
851
00:39:24,765 --> 00:39:26,433
including DNA.
852
00:39:26,700 --> 00:39:29,636
- And what would
you like to see
853
00:39:29,703 --> 00:39:31,839
as the next
kind of breakthrough
854
00:39:31,905 --> 00:39:34,808
in your aspect
of criminology?
855
00:39:36,944 --> 00:39:39,913
- Well, everything is getting
smaller and smaller
856
00:39:39,980 --> 00:39:41,715
and faster and faster.
857
00:39:41,782 --> 00:39:44,184
So, when I started,
we had a mass spectrometer
858
00:39:44,251 --> 00:39:46,119
that took up a whole room.
859
00:39:46,186 --> 00:39:49,523
Now, they're just
a small tabletop.
860
00:39:49,590 --> 00:39:51,725
DNA,
when they started with DNA,
861
00:39:51,792 --> 00:39:54,862
it could take weeks
to months to get a result.
862
00:39:54,928 --> 00:39:58,832
Now, they can get a result
in 24 to 48 hours.
863
00:39:59,333 --> 00:40:02,936
I'm predicting that within,
say, the next 10 years,
864
00:40:03,003 --> 00:40:04,438
a law enforcement officer,
865
00:40:04,505 --> 00:40:07,207
if he stops a vehicle
on the side of the road,
866
00:40:07,274 --> 00:40:09,243
he'll be able to take
a cheek swab
867
00:40:09,309 --> 00:40:12,613
and stick it into a portal,
portable instrument
868
00:40:12,679 --> 00:40:14,548
and get a computerized result
869
00:40:14,615 --> 00:40:17,351
of that driver's DNA
on the spot.
870
00:40:17,417 --> 00:40:18,886
- Like a license plate check.
871
00:40:18,952 --> 00:40:20,320
- Yeah.
- That fast.
872
00:40:20,387 --> 00:40:22,890
- Yeah, I think we're gonna get
to that point someday.
873
00:40:22,956 --> 00:40:27,361
- So, cases that may have taken
a year or two to resolve
874
00:40:27,427 --> 00:40:29,696
early on in your 34-year career
875
00:40:29,763 --> 00:40:32,766
could be solved in weeks,
maybe.
876
00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:34,601
- Well, even less.
877
00:40:34,668 --> 00:40:36,203
- Even less.
- Even less, yeah, yeah.
878
00:40:36,270 --> 00:40:38,372
- Such are the times.
- Everything's getting--
879
00:40:38,438 --> 00:40:40,407
And they're developing
other ways
880
00:40:40,474 --> 00:40:42,643
of making unique identification.
881
00:40:42,709 --> 00:40:44,444
Your earlobes are unique.
[Norman chuckles]
882
00:40:44,511 --> 00:40:47,047
Your eye irises are unique.
- Uh-huh.
883
00:40:47,114 --> 00:40:49,616
- And so, we're getting more
and more unique ways
884
00:40:49,683 --> 00:40:53,187
to pinpoint who
that individual is.
885
00:40:53,253 --> 00:40:56,190
So, that's all going to go
towards speeding things up
886
00:40:56,256 --> 00:40:59,493
and making results come
much more quickly.
887
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:01,495
- Robert Block,
it's been a fascinating look
888
00:41:01,562 --> 00:41:03,931
at true crime in Wisconsin
889
00:41:03,997 --> 00:41:08,235
and the rapidly accelerating
solutions to crimes,
890
00:41:08,302 --> 00:41:11,705
thanks to the Wisconsin
Crime Laboratories.
891
00:41:11,772 --> 00:41:12,873
- Sure.
892
00:41:12,940 --> 00:41:15,475
- Great pleasure.
- Thank you.
893
00:41:15,542 --> 00:41:16,677
- I'm Norman Gilliland,
894
00:41:16,743 --> 00:41:19,012
and I hope you can join me
next time around
895
00:41:19,079 --> 00:41:22,082
for University Place Presents.
896
00:41:24,284 --> 00:41:25,953
[gentle music]