cc
performers, George Takei is in >> Speaking of conductors and
and welcome. our studio with me this morning,
Good to be here. Pleasure to have you here.
the word narrating what you're >> And you'll be sort of, was
Milwaukee Symphony this weekend? going to be doing with the
act there's only a brief >> Well, actually, in the first
talking about Star Trek. narration but a lot of me just
from the TV episodes The narration is the prologue
Space: The Final Frontier," ofthat one.ek,
The second act is where we do Klaatu's final speech
from the film,
Sure, a 1950 classic. "Th>> Exactly, and the musicll."
by Bernard Herrmann.
recite, this alien this come So that's playing behind me as I
shot at and imprisoned. to Ea>> Michael Rennie.tely
Michael Rennie, yes.
to anything alien, anything different coming into our
society.
lot of other contemporary So it's, agaissues.etaphor for a
Well, as one who grew up in Los Angeles and had that
childhood interrupted by being
Japanese American internment relocated in one of those
is running current in your life. camps, that must be a theme that
as you know, is a euphemism. >> The word relocated,
I remember that morning when >> Yes.
My parents got us up early, my I was five years old.
sister, got us dressed. And my brother and I were in the
living room and I was looking out the front window and I saw
two soldiers come marching up our driveway with bayonets on
their rifles. And they stomped up the front
the porch and banged on the door.
And my father answered it and the soldiers ordered us out of
our own home. And I remember seeing my mother
come out from the back, carrying
huge duffel bag in the other arm my baby sister and carrying a
cheek. and tears streaming down her
When you see your mother crying like that, it's something that's
seared into your memory.
there to a nearby racetrack. And then we were taken from
Santa Anita. >> Santa Anita.
and told that we were to spend And taken to the horse stalls
stalls because the camps have the nenot been built yet.e horse
While they were being constructed we would stay there
in that stinky horse stall. >> How did your parents explain
to you what was going on? Did you have any warning?
Well, my father told us that
vacation, and it was a few we were going for a long
there in the horse stalls that months after we were living
called Arkansas. he said we were going to a place
meant fun, and Arkansas sounded And for me,exotic.id, vacation
And so I was excited and looking
And I thought everyone went on forward to it.
armed soldiers at both ends of vacations and long trains with
that were very glum. the car and with some people
I was going to Arkansas for But vacation.ited.
There is a terrible irony in
in that not only were you tsolidly American, but actuallyy
you're named after King George
you both Anglophiles. >> My father was an Anglophile.
I was born in 1937, the year of the coronation of George VI.
So, hence, I'm George.
round and fat and roley-poley, When my brother was born, he was
So guess what his name is? as fat as Henry VIII.
royalty. We're named after English
That's wonderful that you play sci-fi based music while we
talk about sci-fi.
with there. >> YIt's kind of surprising.ork
Yeah, there's a host of music that was inspired by or inspired
science fiction.
imaginative comes from latter >> Yeah,day composers.he most
I was intrigued to discover fairly recently that the, I
guess we would call it the main theme of Star Trek, the original
series, is based on a song
which was a popular song called "Beyond the Blue Horizon"
Yeah, I know that song. >> Jeanette MacDonald singing
all those high, high notes. >> Oh, this is the first time
I'm hearing that. Alexander Courage's.
That's right. >> That was "Beyond the Blue
Horizon." >> Yeah, it was inspired
by "Beyond the Blue Horizon." >> I had no idea.
Well, see, it pays to come to Milwaukee and chat with you.
We all learn a little something.
Life is constant learning,
Now, what's not generally known is that you had a
considerable and impressive career as an actor well before
1966. >> That's correct.
There are some historic,
Star Trek, like Playhouse 90. >> Now, tell us something about
Playhouse 90. That was live, was it not?
That was live.
written by some of the best Weplaywrights of that time.as
People like Reginald Rose,
Sure. >> Rod Serling..
Yes.
assistant director from the Playhouse 90 I did, became a
director for the Twilight Zone, the Rod Serling series.
And they cast me in a challenging two-character drama
for Twilight Zone that I did
Was that the Encounter? wit>> Encounter.nd.
Which was 1964. So it was late in the Twilight
Zone run, and that was so controversial, I'm told, that
you can't even see it in this country.
Well, it was aired once and there was significant uproar
from the Japanese American
And so it was pulled and was community.
as a CD. never re-aired until it came out
2000s, 2002 or 2003, or 2004, that people saw it for the first
time, and they were astounded.
here you were Nisei. >> And the controversy was that
Nisei, Japanese American, and you had an encounter with, I
gather, it was a white American?
Neville Brand. >> Yes.
American. Ac>> That has to be one of thean
rare times when you had Native
as the principals in a cast. American and Japanese American
To make a very complex story >> Yes.
Ssecond World War, and he's home short, he's a veteran of the
I'm a young Japanese American gardener who comes to work on
his yard, and he invites me up
And the Twilight Zone bong thing to share a beer with him.
fantastical past that we happens, and we fantasize on the
Not reality, it's Twilight Zone. imagine.
Japanese soldier from behind and He imagines that he killed a
jungles of southeast Asia. stole his samurai sword in the
my father having directed planes And I imagine, fantasize,
Now, that is factually totally to Pearl Harbor.
There is no record of treachery by Americans of Japanese
ancestry. It's Twilight Zone.
Right.
to the bore and our incarceration that the Japaneseh
American community went into an uproar.
This Japanese American community
insisted that there was no was too sensitive, and they
of disloyalty by Japanese treacAmericans, but we wereacts
incarcerated on that suspicion
never be aired again. I was taken a little aback by
that because this is Twilight Zone.
It's not supposed to be believed.
But I guess not everybody gets the subtle distinction
there.
And CBS, in deference to and >> Exactly that.
the Japanese American community, respect for the sensibilities of
It was a great acting part for withdrew that show.
A wonderful opportunity for a young actor.
A two-character drama and to
meat, as fantastical as it was. deAnd so I was a little takened
aback by that, and I was a
Japanese American Citizens member of that organization, the
It's the Asian American counterpart to the NAACP.
I understood their sensibility. I understood their, I don't want
to use the word ignorance, but
Twilight Zone. not having been exposed to
That's right. >> And many of them had never
seen the show.
And yet they were given the synopsis and they said oh, no,
that must never be shown; we
And I understand that feeling because it was a painful
experience for the adults, my parents' generation.
They lost everything. My father said they took my
business, they took our home, they took our freedom, but the
one thing I'm not going to give them is my dignity; I'm not
going to grovel before this government.
And I respected the older generation's pain and their
anguish over that experience, and so I kept my mouth shut.
There are some nuances. I'm reminded a little bit of
another big broadcast scandal,
with War of the Worlds. People are tuned in, and they
didn't know it was pretend. >> That's right.
And so, yeah, that's a good parallel that you've drawn
there.
[LAUGHTER] I should use that.
I give it to you freely. >> It's free.
You're very generous. Speaking of my father, my
father's name was Norman too. >> Yes, I saw that somewhere,
which must be fairly unusual for
Well, that was the name that a Japanese American.
birth name was Takekuma Takei. he selected himself because his
by choice. But it was his American name
Back with George Takei, and we're talking about parents.
And so your father, Norman Takei, was first
generation American or second?
He was born in Japan, but he was >> He was first.
paternal grandfather when he was brought to San Francisco by my
And so he was reared in San Francisco, educated in
San Francisco, and his heart was
My mother was born in, we say Sacramento, actually a small
farming community near
My maternal grandparents came from Japan, and they settled in
Florin, in the Sacramento Delta.
siblings were born there. >> But you spent, once the war
was over and you came back from the internment camp, you went
back to the Los Angeles area? >> That's correct.
Many people were embittered by, most Japanese Americans, before
the war, were on the west coast,
Americans that were and it wincarcerated. Japanese
Isn't that silly? Hawaii was the place that was
bombed. Hawaii had the most
Japanese Americans. I think almost half
the population was
They didn't intern people from Japanese American.
The west coast, because we were more vulnerable.
If they incarcerated the
the economy would have Japanese Americans of Hawaii,
Well, yeah, they were too dependent upon them, sure.
And we had farmland that
So there was an economic reason people haas well.eyes on.
And so we were taken away and put into these barbed wire
internment camps in some of the most god forsaken places in the
country.
hot desert of Arizona in the Can you imagine the blistering
You complained about your Milwaukee summers, this is
paradise compared to the desert of Arizona.
We were sent to the sultry
and there were two internment swamps of camps there. Arkansas,
Others were up in the high
Cold, wind-swept, dust storm plains.
Idaho, Utah, Colorado, and there plagued areas like Wyoming,
places in California. And everything was taken from
us. And when we came back to Los
Angeles, the hatred was intense.
Housing was well-nigh Jobsimpossible.cult.
Our first home was on Skid Row
We had a two-bedroom house in downtown Los Angeles.
And because we were so young, I remember the barbed wire fence
and the sentry towers with the
When I made the night runs to mthe latrine, search lights
followed me, but they became
In fact, I thought it was kind normality.
for me to pee. of nice that they lit the way
So everybody else I knew in camp [LAUGHTER]
We lined up three times a day to lived the same way.
We went to mass showers. eat in a noisy mess hall.
now, we began the school day And, a stinging irony for me
the flag. wiI could see the barbed wire to
fence and the sentry tower
window as I recited the words, right outside my schoolhouse
and justice for all. very innocently, with liberty
when we realized what internment But, when we returned, that's
that time, and the stench of the meant I was eight years old by
the street, in the hallways, Skid Row, urine everywhere, on
leaning against a wall, smelly, ugly, reeking with all sorts of
smells. And my baby sister said, "Mama,
let's go back home," meaning
It was better than Skid Row. back behind barbed wires.
You, pretty early on, >got into Hollywood related
activities. You were involved, as we
mentioned, with Rodan and making
the Japanese classic, but not thatbecause you're fluent inn of
Japanese. You're fluent in Spanish too.
But not too long after that, you
one of the great TV shows, were in Playhouse 90, which was
Do you think it was especially live TV shows.
It was thrilling just to be exciting cast in that.levision?
I was addicted to Playhouse 90. It was something that was,
to me, far away.
landmark shows. It wGreat playwrights,eat
Paddy Chayefsky, Reginald Rose, Rod Serling.
Wonderful dramas and wonderful
Geraldine Page, Jack Palance
in Requiem for a Heavyweight. >> That was a classic.
That was Rod Serling. >> Rod Serling, yes.
And I was plucked out from
UCLA, and plunked into my first theater, apaying gig.oduction at
You didn't have to know any boxing, did you, in Requiem for
a Heavyweight?
Made in Japan. >> No, mine was called
but I get a suicide scene. I played a Japanese soldier,
Another chewy hunk >> That's dramatic.
You seem to pretty much to of red meat.
There weren't many Japanese American actors who really rose
to prominence in the profession.
Asian American actors. >> Well, there were not many
and sold their faces as extras. There were >> Sure.t went out
As waiters. >> I have a poem about that, by
the way.
this time. I can't resist bringing it in at
like that. >> An author should not resist
but you haven't seen it yet. >> I wish you could read it,
Many actors at best will appear in a crowd
with one mine and a spear But few carry the play
Like the star George Takei. So, congrats
on your Sulu career.
Well, how flattering. Thank you very much.
There were many Asian faces, but
with ideas of their own, who had they weren't actors who came up
Ongoing characters. >> And, so that, as you say, it
gave me a niche, but, at the
had the kind of parents I had because Asian American parents
of my parents' generation,
children if they had talent, not only did not encourage their
from going into the arts, thbecause we were insecure.hem
They wanted their children to be
all those good, distinguished, doctors, engineers, professors,
class areas. respectable, and upper middle
music, or writing, or acting, And theirin the arts?ing into
God forbid. They're going to starve.
I'm going to support them for the rest of their lives.
A lot of them did, didn't they?
I was a theater student.
studies. My minor was Latin American
minor and a hopeless major, I'm Mgoing to be supporting you for
the rest of your life.
Well a bad major led to a Wgreat lieutenant..
Let's put it that way.
And how did 1966 come about? [LAUGHTER]
Lieutenant Sulu? How did you become
credits by that time. My very first gig was in '57,
and so I was a working actor. And one day I was called in for
an interview with this man named
know from Adam. I walked in and he, usually when
they're interviewing actors for a series they have a whole
battery of people: the network
creative team. people, the studio people, and a
intimidating. >> And they're all sober-faced,
and they're glaring at you. And some will do
the good cop/bad cop. Some will smile occasionally or
chuckle when you say something
But when I went in for the witty.
he was the only one. interview with Gene Roddenberry,
And then he, rather than having a desk between us, he indicated.
the sofa, kind of an L-shaped sofa.
And we sat there and I remember it as a very unusual interview.
We talked about current events, our thoughts on it, movies we'd
seen, books that particularly impressed us, and then he
explained the...
The idea, the show itself, >> The role.
And he really tantalized me. and then my role.
but then he thanked me I really wanted to get cast,
And I thought, was that it? Maybe he didn't want me, but he
was just being polite by making social chitchat.
He's a nice man,
this series. and I'd loved to have done
when I didn't hear for about two I reported that to my agent, and
agent during those two weeks, have we heard from the yet,
have we heard, and he said no,
And I thought well, I guess wthat's it.
But then my agent called one
I was blown away by that. mo>> Without an audition,st.
you mean? I mean, without reading any
lines or anything?
Apparently, he did his homework. >> Without reading.
And he wanted to, I found out that the other actors were
similarly interviewed.
tick, what our interests were, He wanted to know what made us
events because it was a show what we thought of current
time. tha>> Sure, very much so.our
Very much.
was very unique, and that's what And so I think his casting style
apparently we had, that they helped build that chemistry that
But it still took Sulu told us we had.
from Lieutenant? how long to get promoted
It wasn't until about 1991 [LAUGHTER]
in one of the movies, right? or something like that
I lobbied all through while we were on the TV series.
I lobbied for more for Sulu to
warp three, steady as she goes." do, beyond "Aye aye, sir,
How much input did you actually >have in the development??
I gave them a lot of input. >> But not much came out.
Well, when you have seven regular performers,
three who are the principals, it's pretty difficult.
You give them all the ideas,
thing. but they're all doing the same
kind of elbowing each other. Even Bill and Leonard were
Time in the spotlight. >> More lines, more stuff.
it was a little difficult. And so with the TV series
going to be a feature film, ButI thought how wonderful.ere
But that was that.
a sequel going to be made. But then we heard that there was
a sequel, but, because the first They weren't intending on making
to do a sequel. And that's when I thought, well,
I'll do a little lobbying.
and the director to have lunch And I invited the producer
restaurant overlooking at a very fine Little Tokyo
them. Starfleet is supposed to be a
meritocracy, and if it's a
advances. meritocrac>> Yes.e should be
And so they started giving us new titles.
But I was still at the same console, doing the exact same
thing I was doing as a
and in the first movie. >> Did you get a better uniform
anyway? >> We didn't get a better
uniform because in the first
Picture, they had us in a fione-piece spandex outfitn
with even the shoes attached. And it zipped up the back and
went under the armpit and so
Grown men and women, forth.
hydrate and need to dehydrate. organic creatures, animals who
Couldn't go to the >> On a long shoot.
dressers following us, and we dehhad to wiggle out of thisour
spandex uniform to answer Mother Nature's call.
And so when they said they were going to do a sequel, we all
went on a strike. We said we will not come back
unless we get a fly in our
[LAUGHTER] costume!
see in II, III, IV, and VI. And,>> I've heard that when you
the first Star Trek movie came out, it was right
about the time, was it not, that
was some kind of, I've heard Star Wars came out, and there
reconfiguring that said, okay, I this, there was some kind of
bit. think we better upgrade a little
became a series of movies. >> Star Wars came out before we
when we were on television. OWe were near the cellarw
all three seasons.
isn't it? >> It's hard to believe, but I
guess we were before our time.
justify cancellation, but it was And so they had the numbers to
went into syndication that the after we were canceled and we
And so we had many announcements ratings soared.
as a television series again. of when w>> Oh, really?ing back
I remember February of 1974 was one date that we were,
it was the first date we were given.
And I remember that because we
But as we got near February, were so excited about it.
hedging and that kept getting then thpushed back.ind of
And then the next date was '75, and then '76.
And then Star Wars hit, and that's when the green head of
greed.
Arose at the executive >> Oh, is that what it was?
decided to do us as a feature offices at Pfilm.unt, and they
That's what gave birth
Star Trek: The Motion Picture. to our first film,
footsteps of Star Wars. We are a result of Star Wars'e
success.
a popular, favorite episode >>of Star Trek, the series.ave
Is that the one with the bare chest?
The one with the sword, yes.
I get unleashed from that damn console at long-last.
And to, yes, rip my shirt off and grab my fencing foil and
terrorize the ship. >> The idea being that there was
some kind of virus that got into
lose their... the sh>> Inhibitions.erybody
Inhibitions, yes. Now, if you had crafted a role
for Sulu, if you had been able
episodes, what kind of episode to write and direct one of those
Well, Sulu would have been would it have been?
dimensioned. much more rounded and
were ideas that I suggested. He would have parents, and those
get a first name, didn't it? >> Took you a while just to even
I think that didn't happen >> First name, yes.
Throughout the three seasons until the movies.
But I would give him parents. I would give him a love
interest, if not already
Maybe having children. married.
But Kirk, too, went for a long To make him more fully a human.
That's true. time without a family as well.
a back story for Sulu? So you did develop, eventually,
I did. >> Mm-hmm.
kind of background did he have? >> A>> Well, he was born inwhat
San Francisco, which was my father's hometown, and you make
that discovery in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home.
He has a scene where he says
And that was also the Sanheadquarters of Starfleetere.
Command.
And this was an idea, I have to Hegive proper creditn.
to Harve Bennett. He was the producer
of Star Trek IV, and he came up with the idea of having
an ancestor of mine.
century, and my meeting a young Asian kid, a young, I think he
was seven or eight, boy on the
discovered that he's his great- great-great-grandfather to be.
It was a charming scene.
young boy who tested wonderfully But, unfortunately, they cast a
office building where they in a cool, calm, collected
He was absolutely charming, and Leonard, who was directing that
film, cast him in it, and he
And the boy that he had cast didn't get a backup young boy.
streets of San Francisco with these big lights being trundled
about and being put into
face, and he just froze. wardrobe and makeup patting his
Well, when you have a child and when you have a rank amateur
and you put them in an
it happens. absoAnd we lost that scene.tion,
We spent a whole half a day trying to cajole that kid into
doing.
dressed as Mr. Spock in that In fact, Leonard, who was
down and said, you like horsUncle Sulu, don't you?ing
You think he's funny, don't you?
We have still shots of that, >> I wish I had film of that.
camera going. >> We're hearing a little bit of
The Day the Earth Stood Still underneath our conversation,
and it makes me wonder. Were you a reader at all of
science fiction, other than Rodan that you worked on,
were you an appreciator or a
films growing up? c>> To be honest, I was not.on
I had read Ray Bradbury,
as a sci-fi fan. but I didn't fancy myself
in Star Trek and I started And it wasn't until I got cast
like Harlan Ellison who's a dear meeting some of our writers,
ideas guy and a very strongly, friend, and he's an incredible
That can be good. >> That was good but some people
found it very off-putting because he is so intense.
But other much more mild-mannered people, like Ted
Sturgeon or Norm Spinrad, who are so imaginative and have such
penetrating thoughts on our contemporary society that I
started to say there's something
fiction, and I started reading to this thing called science
Did you ever do any other science fiction roles
other than Sulu?
I did Peter David, who was a >> Yes.
and he's written many Star Trek novels, did a television seriesr
in Canada aimed at preteens.
who was an irregular regular And I played an alien creature
Recognizable at least? on that series.
I was totally unrecognizable. >> Oh, really?
Save for my voice.
completely covered in rubber. >> Well, you have the advantage
of a very distinctive voice, so at least you'd be recognized in
any event, even in animation. You do some animation,
don't you?
And that's why I was cast in, what was the character's name?
I can't remember. I played him regularly, but it
was like in 1980 or there about,
character. so I can't remember the
as we've said, which were >> fiction 50-60 years ago isgs,
reality, and that would include something like the Internet,
which I understand you are
Internet in one form or another. almost omnipresent on the
communication. >> It is an amazing medium for
bound for Broadway on the We'veinternment of Japaneseical
Americans.
but fictional. It's a factual story,
We take a fictional family and The events are all factual.
camp, Heart Mountain. And it is a story of the lossg
and the heartbreak but also of
determination to prevail. So it's, ultimately, an
uplifting story, but because of the nature of that story we
thought we need to, first of
dark chapter of American history all, have people understand that
musical Allegiance. And so I thought Facebook would
be a wonderful way to get that
There are so many people that tell me I had no idea something
like the internment happened in the United States.
Innocent citizens with no charges and no trial being
imprisoned for no good reason,
people that bombed Pearl Harbor. other than we looked like the
preliminary word out about And so I did that as a
sprinkle it with a little humor Allegiand a few kitties.t I'd
It grew and grew and grew to the point where we were
nearing one million.
and now we're over two million. And theIt's just amazing.illion,
And so we're trying to use it educationally
but using fun and photos
checking up on us daily. to get the people
the days of Star Trek, you get >> And I suppose, unlike back in
with the users. immediat>> It's amazing.raction,
It is really a remarkable system
transition. As we all know, Facebook is in
need of raising some revenue. >> They didn't do so well with
their stock offering, did they? >> They've got investors.
They have people that invested
making money. iAnd so it seems to be goingt
through some evolution. >> Sure.
And it's puzzling us because
and suddenly our growth is not we've been growing consistently,
but some people are not getting onlwhat we post.out,
Oh, really? Are you maxing out the system,
or what?
They have approached us and said >> No.
people, we might enhance it by if you want to reach more
Uh-huh. >> I think they're testing out
a lot of ideas. >> Sure.
We're not going to do that
Why were we growing like this and suddenly you're stepping in
and doing something to control
That's probably true that growth unnaturally?
If you go back to the printing of so many media innovations.
why should we restrict what we press, it's suddenly, oh, well,
have the first thing printed print because as soon as you
ideas as to how that medium then peshould be used.inds of
Certainly true of broadcasting
We are entering into a brave too.
exciting. nTo be part of that, to be's
getting the impact of that
to play in giving some shape and "evolution," and having a role
It's reasonable. form.
They most certainly, Zuckerberg I has a lot of money already.ey.
Well, in the next couple of minutes, do you have any notions
of doing more film? >> Well, we hope that Allegiance
is such a success that we get to
Tokyo, and, ultimately, maybe a productions imovie.on, Toronto,
I have a lot of ideas in mind.
autobiography. As I said, I wrote an
right? >> That's been out for a while,
lived a lot of material since >> It came outhen.1994, and I've
I hope you're taking careful
Up here in my mind. And so I'm toying with the idea
of another autobiography. And this Internet success that
I've been blessed with, that
humorous tome. might be a subject for a little
position to go back and talk >> So, you wouldn't be in a
pitch an idea or pitch yourself one-onfor a character?er and
Those days are behind you?
I'm certainly game for that. >> Oh, no, no, no.
itself on Broadway, we may When Allegiance has proven
with Hollywood studio heads or engage in that kind of picture
can nudge Allegiance along into developma movie version.e if we
Do you have, other than the Star Trek movies, do you have a
favorite film or two that inspired you in your formative
years in terms of the acting or the production?
I did a play in New York
written by a Chinese American, called The Year of the Dragon,
Chinese American family, in Frank ChinChinatown.family, a
And Rodgers and Hammerstein depict it as an exotic,
charming, fun place.
And there's a lot of poverty and Actually, it's a ghetto.
cultural wrestling going on in a lot of cultural struggle,
It was a drama that I could bring some of my own personal
life experiences to.
television on the Theater in And then we taped it for
no NPR, as a matter of fact. America Series for PBS,
And I feel that that's been one of the soul fulfilling
projects that I've done.
goes because I've been calling But we'll see how Allegiance
Well, we'll hope to have you that my legacy project.
radio drama, one of these days. maybe That would be fun.n some
Yeah, I grew up on radio. Green Hornet, Cisco Kid.
And there's something wonderful about creating a whole world, a
whole civilization, and maybe a whole fascinating person just
with your voice, with sound.
Well, thanks for joining us Iton this medium today,um.
George Takei. And we've had a little bit of
science fiction oriented music
fact, and we'll look forward to your performances this weekend.
Thanks again. >> Thank you very much.
I look forward to meeting all my Milwaukee fans here
during the sci-fi concerts.