cc
is to increase public discussion >> Eric Sandreng: The purpose
surrounding animal research and to provide an opportunity for
interested parties, and there are a lot of interested parties
in this city, to discuss the
associated with use of animals complex issues that are
Now animals in research is a in research.
It's a very complicated issue. very emotional issue.
it's remarkable that we find Passions run high and I think
where this is probably the least ourselves in a state right now
discussed. contentious issue that's being
That's really where we want to But maybe that's a good start.
So there is a long list of take this anyway.
and I'll do by saying thank you, people that I would like thank,
But I do want to point out people.
There was a forum planning group a few people.
together, and although the that was helping to put this
different perspectives regarding people on the group have quite
we share tremendous passion the useabout that issue.search,
And actually we also share a
issue out into the public to very strong desire to bring this
And I would like those of you who are here from that forum to
stand up for a minute, please.
Thank you all very much. [APPLAUSE]
from Dr. Larry Hansen, a Tonight, we're going to hear
of California San Diego. neuroscientist at the University
introducing. I will let him do most of the
speaking, we will have a chance to ask and have Larry answer or
try to answer questions.
the purposes of this forum is to The purpose, as I said, one of
understanding, so we are really try to reach an
the issues of animals and inviresearch from multiplee at
perspectives. So I would encourage you all to
clap for the speaker and those
and then the others, try to ask you some probing questions.cheer
Let's really try to have an outstanding discussion about
this. Again, that's really part of
what this is all for. With that, I will mention at the
end that I will be kind of
end, and I've seen in the past running the questions at the
up and give mini lecture, either there are times where people get
maybe that's all they're doing, and I'll try to discourage that
tonight.
under about 30 seconds. And if it's getting a bit long,
I may stand up. Otherwise I'm ready now to turn
it over to our speaker, and I'm very honored to have you as the
kick-off speaker to this forum. Thank you, Larry.
[APPLAUSE]
very much. >> Lawrence Hansen: Thank you
initial speaker for this, I Ithink very important, forum.
And I appreciate the privilege
you people about something that of gematters a lot to me.lk to
And it's funny, I find myself kind of nervous and anxious
about this. I am a blatherer by trade.
I talk all the time.
talking about animal welfare And yet when I find myself
just sort of goes up a notch, iand I find myself much moreit
emotional about it than when I'm
or neuroanatomy. teaching generic neuropathology
sound more anxious than usual. So you have to forgive me if I
off of you if we were talking about anything over than animals
and research. I want to start by tooting my
own horn. There are few more obnoxious
sounds than someone tooting their own horn.
And so I blame this on my wife
prepare this, and she said, first of all, you have to show
them your credentials.
self-aggrandizing and it's kind And I of embarrassing. very
And she goes, trust me, no one
unless you establish your credentials; I'm married to you
and I don't pay any attention to
[LAUGHTER] you.
have an opinion about this as a result of your life experience
and research and medicine.
with some members of the panel And I was having a discussion
important words are, and I'm earlier about words and how
of fact, and probably because I kindwas a literature major.tter
And so words are a big deal to
And I always teach by going back me.
always say if you have to have a to the etymology of words, and I
means, we'll go to the conflict about what a word
And Noah Webster is trump in dictionary.
The interesting thing about words, of course, is that words
don't just describe reality,
And people know that and they try to frame arguments and they
try to influence conclusions by the way words are used.
So we have to be very careful about words.
But I'm going to be using some
people would say, are inflammatory or emotional, and
so every time that happens we're
with what the dictionary going to go back and touch base
isn't a valid application of definition is and see if that
Speaking of words, credentials word.
credibility and credence and comes from the same root as
So this is supposed to make you trust me because I've been
looking at medical practice and I've been looking at teaching
and research for a long time. The medical, oops, I didn't mean
to do that. The thing about credentials, I
like credentials, they get you a
promotions and all, but every once and a while they take you
to strange places like Madison, Wisconsin, in the dead of
winter. And the reason I've gotten
involved in animal issues is
came up to me when I was some medical students initially
also practice medicine, and these students at UCSD, and allI
of the stuff that I'm talking about that I can vouch for is
from UCSD.
much of it is similar to what Igoes on at the University of
Wisconsin, but I want to
expert on the University of California use of animals and a
couple other contexts.
authorities as to whether that And I will defer to local
the University of Wisconsin. applies to what's going on at
students came up to me and said you make no secret for your love
of dogs, do you know they're
physiology and pharmacology. still killing dogs in freshman
that. And then they asked me, well you
practice medicine, they tell us that you need to kill these dogs
in order to be a doctor, and we want to know if that's true.
And I said, no, it's clearly not
And one of my guilty secrets in the past is when I was a medical
student I killed dogs.
I killed another dog in surgery Ibecause they told me to do it,d
and I was just too gutless to stand up to authority figures at
the time. And now that I've been
practicing medicine for a long
that was. timeI often get stumped by aary
diagnosis.
I look at brain tumors from all over the community and even all
over the world actually.
brain tumors, and sometimes I Sget a brain tumor and I don'tin
know what it is.
colleagues and do special stains And I have to show it to
equivocate, and I've never been in a clinical situation where
I've thought if I only killed more dogs I'd be able to help
this patient. So I told the students, no, you
don't need to kill dogs to be a doctor but don't take my word
for it. So we organized a Doctors
Against Dogs Lab, and we got 300
petition urging the physiology San Diego physicians to sign a
kill dogs. and pharmacology faculty not to
know you don't need to do this, We sadon't kill the dogs., we
But they were PhDs and they thought they knew what it took
to be an MD.
doctors, not real doctors, no offense, but you don't practice
medicine. And it got to be a big brouhaha.
So that's how I got started in
And then some notoriety came animals.
by an animal welfare group that asked me to look at a grant that
contended it was going to help
Alzheimer's disease. find the cause and cure of
grant, and it had to do with And it was a primate vivisection
smooth visual pursuit and the loovestibulo-ocular reflex.it,
And I'm going to talk about that
copy of the grant and I read it and I realized they had to work
hard to find a system less
than the vestibulo-ocular reflex related to Alzheimer's disease
It has nothing to do with andAlzheimer's disease.it.
So I went up to San Francisco and tried to persuade their
board of supervisors to prohibit
was going on at UCSF. this It's a funny paradox. that
The two places that I always
the most knee-jerk liberal think of as the most liberal,
of Berkeley around San Francisco places are the People's Republic
Madison. and the People's Republic of
where they do the most primate And those are the two places
It seems very odd to me. vivisection.
involved in all this stuff. The tenure is kind of nice.
It allows me to come here and make these kinds of
presentations and they can't
So that's how I got started with fire me.
And so today I want to talk about the ethics and efficacy of
experimentation on animals, common ground or no man's land.
Three things. Ethics, is it right or wrong?
It is a good thing to do or is
And efficacy is, does it work? it a bad thing to do?
it promises to produce? DoesIf a primate vivisectionhat
experiment is sold as this is going to help find the cause and
cure of Alzheimer's disease, is there any evidence that that's
true? And wouldn't that change our
final conclusion? Do the ends justify the means?
Basically the ethics of doing research on animals, as far as I
can tell, always come down to do
So we have so know what are the the ends juends. the means.
Are the ends to learn more about
visual tracking?
Are the ends to increase our the vestibulo-ocular reflex?
neurophysiology? basic neuroscience knowledge of
the question is, is it worth And if those are the ends, then
some pretty horrible experiences making the monkeys go through
Or do you want to raise the ante to do that?
to cure human diseases, and if and say, well, no, the ends are
maybe we would be willing to do something to monkey that wee
wouldn't be willing to do if it was just to find out more about
the neurophysiology of the
So that's efficacy. veDoes it work or not?x.
And experimentation on animals, again I wanted define terms very
carefully, we're only concerned with experiments that hurt
animals.
kind of like if Jane Goodall Nobody cares, and in fact we
and take notes on what the wants to crouch behind a bush
And I know a guy who does experiments on dog intelligence
and people bring their dogs.
It's like when you do infant And they love it.
people bring their babies and they find out how smart their
babies are. So nobody cares.
That's great. Love those experiments.
We're only concerned with experiments that harm animals,
physically, which is
that in a minute, or vivisection, and I'll define
Harry Harlow is a big hero psychologically.
But he really did pretty horrible things.
He did what I think of as psychological vivisection.
He managed to prove that you can
miserable, almost suicidal, and he proved that that happens when
babies don't have their mothers.
kind of go, well duh. And But anyhow, I think someould
psychological treatment of
vivisection, but that's kind of aa stretch for the definition.al
So let's define our terms.
animals. Ethics of experimentation on
ethics, is it right to do this We're first going to look at the
And then we're going to look at or is the efficacy.o this?
Do the experiments produce the
So first of all, history gives promised results?
that the ethics of scientists uare any better than the ethicsk
of nonscientists. Quite the opposite, in fact.
You can do some very efficacious
unethical. science that's totally
familiar with the Tuskegee And you probably are all
Guatemalan syphilis experiments and the Willowbrook hepatitis
experiments.
disease called And in my field there's a
was named after HaDr. Hallervorden, who was aich
Nazis, no hyperbole, no exaggeration, really a Nazi
doctor. And he was interested in some
mentally impaired children. And as long as they were
exterminating them anyway he
those kids' brains. And he published 12 papers after
the war and it was good science.
it was good science. There's no doubt about it;
We still know that the disease It was valid science.
signs and symptoms. thThe confusion comes when weain
start talking about good science
Science is an amoral enterprise. but science isn't good or bad.
science what we really mean is Science, when we talk about good
science, science that teaches us valid science, reproducible
world or the way animals or the somethway humans work.y the
That's valid science. But it gets confusing when we
start to say that's good
It's not good in the moral or ethical sense, it's simply valid
science.
uncorrelated domains. There's no reason to think as
efficacy goes up, ethics goes up
There's no relationship at all. It might be very efficacious if
somebody really annoys you to shoot them in the head.
That's very efficacious but it's
So there's no relation. No inherent relationship between
ethics and efficacy.
good science versus bad science Awhen people think good and badt
means right or wrong. And then if I was making these
slides again, I think I would have made a separate slide with
just this sentence on it and I
and put an asterisk by it. would highlight and underline it
groups gravitate to the more That like-minded people in
common. exAnd I think that's then
foundation of all of this conflict.
And that was discovered by
psychologists, and they didn't psychologists, group
drill any holes in their skulls bolt anyor anything.chair or
They did very ethical experiments, and they found it's
a little bit counterintuitive but you get like-minded people
and they don't gravitate towards
their commonalities. a bell curve in the middle of
the far right. They skew to the far left or to
So liberals who only hang out with liberals don't end up being
sort of moderately left of
liberal. center, they become very
conservatives. And the same thing with
all you have to do is channel surf over to Keith Olbermann for
a while.
I enjoy Keith Olbermann. And he's funny.
he's frothing at the mouth about And he's ranting and raving and
And then, for a change of pace, you can go listen to Glenn Beck.
And you realize oh, my God, like-minded people in groups
gravitate to extreme positions. And they've lost their reality
testing.
of what goes on in what I call And I think that explains a lot
that term in a bit, is that people who do it and the people
who approve it have already concluded that it's okay and
then they become increasingly extreme.
I'm going to show some pictures of primate vivisections, and
when I was getting this talk
are vivisectors in one sense. reaI work in a neuroscienceds
laboratory. I work with guys who do rat and
mouse work. They don't really vivisect.
They create transgenic mouse
And then after a while they test models.
stupid they are and then they the mice kill them. smart or
That's not quite the same thing as vivisection.
They don't actually operate on
Anyhow, they walked in while I them while they're alive.
pictures ready of some of the primate research and they
recoiled in horror. They go, oh, come on, nobody
does that.
this. I mean, they said things like
those pictures must be fake.
fake. And this is from people who
actually experiment on animals
rat and mice men. foAnd when I was protestingst
outside the neuroscience
neuroscience convention in San convention, there was a big
I'm holding up a sign with a Diego, and I'm like a dork.
It was surprising how many of the neuroscientists who would
come by and they'd say, geez, that's terrible, I only use rats
and mice, I'd never do such a thing.
And the problem is, again, this like-minded people in groups
gravitating to the extreme
And that's actually, I'm going position held in common.
all of this. to come up with a solution to
at the end and will fall into Andeach other's arms and singree
Kumbaya, I think ethical
science should not be left to the scientists because the
scientists are the least
determinations. Their ethics are no better thanl
ours. Well, I'm a scientist so I kind
of want to play both sides of the street.
But the ethics of a scientist is
of a nonscientist. in no way better than the ethics
they might be worse. And history actually indicates
the world to talk about Thefficacy, about how to do in
something, but they're not the
should do it. oneJust like the war is toowe
important to be left to generals, I think ethical
decisions about whether or not
left to vivisectors. to do vivisections should not be
recusal. In law, there's the term a
should be recusing themselves. They're the first people who
literally profit in that they make money and profit in their
careers and their publications
they'd have to be saints not to andbe influenced by that.s,
But the way the system is set up
the decision as to whether or nonot we should proceed withe
primate vivisection.
the IACUCs. TheI apologize for droppingte
acronyms, but everybody knows what an IACUC is, right?
Institutional Animal Care and Use Committees, IACUCs.
Okay. So back to words again.
And I've already gotten into, I wouldn't call it a disagreement
or an argument, but I've already
discussion as to whether it's fair to talk about vivisection.
And people sure do like to spin.
but I like his concept of a no You might not like Bill O'Reilly
And I think we should use words the way the dictionary defines
them. And everybody is guilty of
trying to spin or slant or
lead to a forgone conclusion, euphand it drives me mad.ue to
And so here I'll be an equal
I can piss off the pro-abortion people and the antiabortion
people and the conservatives and
does it. the liberals because everybody
so just that it's fair to spin Everybody thinks their cause is
And here's one more unnecessary offense to the audience, I'm an
animal rights guy, I love dogs
here's an offensive metaphor to and all that kuse.of stuff, but
I don't have a dog in this fight
strongly about it. about abortion, I don't feel
to manipulate people in the So I can semiddle.sides trying
For example, antiabortion tells you exactly what these people
believe.
abortions. They think we shouldn't do
called pro-life. But instead they want to be
A lot of people are pro-life. But the antiabortion people
aren't necessarily pro-life not otherwise specified.
They might agree in capital punishment or they might be
carnivores and like to eat
get killed. steIt's a world of difference to
between pro-life and being
And the pro-abortion people are ajust as bad.
They think abortion sounds kind of nasty.
Who wants to be pro-abortion? So they're pro-choice.
Well, who doesn't like choice?
But the pro-abortion people don't really mean choice not
otherwise specified.
a choice to go to a gun show and They might not want you to have
They just want the people to be able to have abortions.
So call it pro-abortion, call it
And this kind of stuff goes on antiabortion.
Government revenue enhancement and on.
Government investment instead of instead of taxes.
Affirmative action instead of squotas..
And this was big in Vietnam when
preemptive reactive strike. So, well, this is really ane
attack. A preemptive reactive strike.
They used that term, the
And then I always kind of liked, military guys.
servicing a target with ordinance as opposed to bombing.
Maybe it would be better to say bombing.
And one of my personal favorites
the name of the War Department is a long time ago they changed
then more recently, of course, to the Defense Department, and
enhanced interrogation in the Iran-Iraq war we have
So let's all lay down our arms techniques instead of torture.
dictionary. fAnd I brought this definitionhe
from a book called Medical
with etymology and it gives you Meanthe etymology of words.each
And so I got this from Medical
I didn't make it up. Meanings, 2nd edition.
defined. This is how vivisection is
name. LVivisection is the performance
of experimental surgical
especially in the pursuit of procedures on living animals,
From the Latin viverae, to be alive, and secare, to cut.
So we're talking about primate
And animal researchers, like all vivisection.
make themselves sound as the rest of us, kind of like to
So a lot of my vivisection inoffensive as possible.
biomedical researchers. There's a lot of biomedical
research that doesn't involve vivisection.
So they're spinning.
neuroscientists. Or they'll say, we're research
neuroscientists like myself that There's a lot of research
So let's just call it dovivisection..
And then, is vivisection
Well, I'll run the risk of being cruelty?
Noah Webster's dictionary. offensive but we'll go back to
source. Noah Webster didn't have a dog
in this fight either when he
So is vivisection cruelty? wrote the dictionary.
is disposed to inflict pain or Well, the definition of cruelty
So it could even be psychological but certainly it's
physical. Causing or conductive to injury,
grief.
or pain. So that could be psychological
cruelty to animals? SoAre vivisectors engaged inn
torturing animals?
you're using emotional language. And, again, some people will say
rational. YI don't know how to be moreot
rational than to go to the
Look at the definition of dictionarytorture.ck it out.
Torture is anguish, that's
mind or body, agony. basically really bad cruelty, of
was preparing these slides. United Nations' definition ofI
torture which I'm not saying
It comes close but it drops off applieby one word.tors.
United Nations talked about torture is and act by which pain
or suffering, whether physical
inflicted on a person for such or mental, is intentionally
information. purposes as obtaining
part, that's a pretty good So if you take out the person
I mean, the animal researchers, defiI do not believe, thearch.
vivisectors, I do not believe,
I believe they are doing this to are sadists.
And they are willing to do it to get information.
And it's kind of like that same question about do the ends
justify the means?
enhanced interrogation And when they were using
waterboarding, they would say, techniques in Iran and Iraq, or
information to save American well, we need to get this
And if you had a guy and you lives.
was going to hit the World Trade were sure he knew that a plane
information from him, you might say go ahead and torture him.
Because you'd save 3,000 lives. Do the ends justify the means?
On the other hand, these were just Joe Shmoe Iranians or
Iraqis or whatever they were
were kind of torturing them to that were in prison and they
ends don't justify the means. keBut I think that you canhe
certainly say vivisection meets this definition except that it's
applied to an animal instead of to a person.
So by definition, Noah Webster's
at least cruelty to animals and desome rises to the level ofis
torturing animals.
cruelty and torture are too Andstrong to be accurate, askat
yourself this question: if they were doing it to me, would I
consider that I was being treated with cruelty?
If they were doing it to me,
treated or tortured? would I consider I was being
would be cruelty to me or torture to me, then it's cruelty
or torture to the other primates.
Or so I believe.
brutal words if we are unwilling We should not shy away from
so I believe. to I know that some of theeds,
vivisectors, some of the animal researchers, biomedical
researchers, are thinking that
pretty tough talk. these are pretty strong words,
movie True Grit? How many people have seen the
version there's this scene where In the classic John Wayne
valley and he tells Ned Pepper, he says, I mean to kill you,
Ned, or take you to Fort Smith
Parker's convenience. And Ned pepper, who is played by
Robert Duvall, goes, I call that
fat man. pretty bold talk from a one-eyed
torture, I call that pretty bold So he might say, hey, cruelty,
Californian. talk from a skinny-ass
you that this is cruelty or torture if you ask yourself the
question, would it be cruelty or
So, again, I want to not wander toroff and make overarchinge?
statements. I want to talk about my
experience. Stuff I can back up, I have
documentation, I have copies of the grants where these things
are described.
involved in at the University of And this is the one I got
initially some animal welfare people said this grant in its
introduction says that these
cure or a cause for Alzheimer's disease and we wonder, you being
an Alzheimer's expert, is that
And so this is what they do to true?
this grant. And I'm told that similar stuff
goes on at University of
on at University of California Wisconsin, but I know this goes
So this is a grant looking at the smooth visual pursuit.
So it's studying how we track moving objects which is actually
pretty cool.
neuroanatomist, I think that's I'm a neuroscientists, I'm a
How do we track an object across cool.
We can do it smoothly if we're our visual field.
try to just move our eyes in following an object, but if we
herky-jerky. that same arch we do it
How do you manage to smoothly pursue a moving object.
And it also studies the vestibulo-ocular reflex, and
that's the hook up between your inner ear and your eye muscles.
And in clinical practice
so their eyes beat in different sometimesdirections. nystagmus
And sometimes, not that it's
cop pulls you over for a drunk ever happened to me, but if a
finger and he's looking for tesnystagmus because that's ais
manifestation of impaired vestibulo-ocular reflex.
So it's all very interesting
about it. And it's actually valid science.
But in order to study those things this is what they do to
these macaques. They put titanium plates and
bone screws into their skulls so
into a frame and he can't move that they can put the monkey
to measure his eye movement you hiscan't have the head movinging
around. And they put eye coils into the
sclera of the monkey's eyes.
recording chamber into the And they put a cylindrical
put an electrode through the monkey's skull so that they can
into the monkey's brain so that they can measure the activity of
individual neurons. And they implant similar chronic
electrodes into the monkey's
activity of the follicular cerebellum so they measure the
And they put vision distorting nodular lobe.
they have to wear them for 12 spectacles oweeks.monkey, and
And they put these cylinders
bone. acThe mastoid process of thell
temporal bone is where your inner ear is, and that's where
the vestibular apparatus is, and
reflex you have to know what the to study the vestibulo-ocular
you have to put a cylinder in vestithere inside the bone.ng so
So that's a lot of
That's a lot of surgeries. manipulations.
was being treated with cruelty. In fact, I would say I was being
tortured. And you can ask yourselves
whether this would amount to
And then, and this is kind of the over the top frosting on the
cake, is after all that's done
order to get the data that the to the monkey, the monkey, in
voluntarily track a moving researchers need, has to
going on with the eyes and object so they can record what's
cerebellum and what's going on what's going on in the
on in the vestibular apparatus in the cerebrum and what's going
monkey has his head immobilized aand you can see what his eyeshe
are doing.
that. BuThe monkeys, to be fair, aredo
pretty pissed off.
So to get the monkeys to do it, they fluid deprive them so that
they are dehydrated.
in their mouth so if the monkey Atracks, does his trick so that
they can get their readings, he gets a sip of water.
And I've read this grant and I
in horror from it and I found out that the monkeys can't even
drink their fill on the weekend because they have to be thirsty
to get to work on Monday. And they describe this as fluid
deprivation to provide a work ethic.
A work ethic. Now that's spinning for you.
Nobody objects to a work ethic
deprivation. but you might object to fluid
where they kind of lose me, I'm Anactually being very seriousnt
about this, but in general I get
politically incorrect and I make in trouble for being very
called to the Dean's office for jotoo much horsing around.et
I agree with Oscar Wilde that life is far too important to
take seriously. Except I get serious about this
primate vivisection stuff and dog vivisection and cat
vivisection.
trying to be funny. This is from the grant and this
is a quote from the grant is
a pole to allow us to escort the "that collars can be hooked with
primate chair." moI'm thinking, are these guysd
like Snidely Whiplash or Simon
Are they twirling their mustache Legree?
them to a specially designed and they're saying we can escort
I mean, that's not the image primate chair?
services. thThat's not what an escortort
service does. You'd have to pay plenty to get
an escort service.
and they drag them by poles. They hook them up with collars
specially designed primate They're not escorting them to a
It's an especially designed chair in the same sense that the
electric chair is specially designed.
So when I read this, I wonder are they kidding around or do
they just want to use words in a
It sounds much better to say very special way.
specially designed chair than we're dragging them to be
trussed up and have their heads bolted into a frame.
And these are some pictures of
So this is a picture a friend of these guys.
And Frick is a macaque and he's from the University of Utah and
he's in one of these
And here's his collar that you experiments.
here's his head with the bolts can hook up with a pole and
Frick in his cage. and the plates in it and here's
contention actually, that first Animpressions about cruelty toy
animals are very reliable.
When you see an animal and you They're almost never wrong.
cruelty, there's almost never an think it is being treated with
about that. I think first impressions are
very valid. So here's the first impression.
This is what they are doing to
visual pursuit and the Frick to learn about smooth
And these are some pictures that vestibulo-ocular reflex.
Covance, and this is Covance in frieVienna, Virginia.from
And Covance I guess is a major
vivisection world out here too. So these are other experiments
that are going on at Covance. And it's kind of hard to see
what's going on here. You say, what is this?
This guy has got his gloves on
cylinder, this tube, what's agoing on in that tube?
You can't really see it too well, I'm sorry, there's a
monkey in there.
he's in this clear plastic There's a primate in there and
down like that to immobilize him cylinder with his arms pinned
research on him. so that they can do more
you into a clear plastic tube Aand immobilized you, would youd
conclude you were being treated with cruelty or would you
conclude that you were being
And here's a monkey at Covance tortured?
He's stretched out on a rack. And here's something to age me.
Look away from the gruesome picture and I noticed that there
are some gray hairs in the
beard. audience along with my own gray
a tangent, but I noticed you By the way, short term, this is
Lincoln is a big hero of mine. have a lot of Lincoln stuff.
sitting with his attorney general and the attorney general
had a white beard like I did and
And so somebody said, how come he had completely black hair.
beard is white? And Lincoln said, it's obvious,
he talks more than he thinks. So I see some gray hair here.
Obviously I talk more than I
But is there enough gray hair that anybody besides me
remembers the Art Linkletter
Art Linkletter was great, and he House Party show?
the Darndest Things." And so it's been my experience,
because I work at an animal research intensive university,
that vivisectors say the
When I discussed these kinds of issues that I think this is
wrong, an ethical judgment, one of my, and he's a friend, as
close as I can be to a friend with a vivisector, he said, no,
the animals don't suffer that much.
And I'm going, wow, what would
much? I mean, why isn't this that
much? And he dismisses it.
And then I was watching a taped presentation from one of these
sessions where one of the faculty members said one of the
darndest things.
that we are willing to make to He said that this is a sacrifice
species. advance the health of our own
of old fuddy-duddy stuff, about the old joke from Tonto and the
Lone Ranger where they're surrounded by Indians and the
Lone Ranger says, we are in a lot of trouble, Tonto.
And Tonto goes, what do you mean
So we are willing to make this we, white man.
of our own species. The guy on the table is not the
vivisector. The guy standing up is the
vivisector. The guy on the table is the one
that's being sacrificed.
the old testament sense of the And it's not even a sacrifice in
In the old testament you would word.
You had an animal that mattered burn thto you.d calf.
An animal that you were going to
and you gave it up to please eat or you were going to sheer
You give up something that you God.
Obviously they don't value these value.
their monkeys, they are our monkeys, anmonkeys.e not even
We buy these monkeys. These are taxpayers' dollars for
these monkeys.
So they're not even sacrificing their own animals.
So that was a weird thing.
to make to advance the health of To is a sacrifice we are willing
And another one of the darndest things they said was when I was
trying to end the dog labs, one of the physiology professors
came to my office, and he said, Hanson, I don't see what your
problem is. He goes, to me there's just a
thick black line between humans and animals.
And I thought, what kind of physiologist are you?
That's the strangest thing in the world for a physiologist to
say.
anything, if science teaches us anything, if biology teaches us
anything it's that there's no thick black line between humans
and other animals.
want to have it both ways. But the vivisectors, they really
this thick black line so we don't need to treat animals the
way we would want to be treated and we don't need to worry about
their pain and their suffering
because there's this thick black and their fear and their terror
And then the anti-vivisectors will say well then there's no
justification for doing this
data to improve the health of byour own species because thee
animals are so different from us.
And they go oh, no, they're close enough for that.
They're similar enough to us
they're not similar enough that we have to treat them the way we
would want to be treated. So it seems to me they kind of
want to have it both ways.
things. And here's that poor monkeyt
stretched out, not suffering
my friends. thAnd that sacrifice thing isof
interesting too because, like I said, the people on my floor,
and some of these guys are my friends, I'm not happy with what
they're doing but they don't
transgenic mouse models and then vivisect, they just make
But when they get ready to kill them, I hear them talking in the
halls, they never say kill. They never say kill these mice,
we got to go down and kill these
It's always sack. We got to sack, sack, sack.
And so I asked them, why do you say sack?
And they say, it's short for
And I say, why do you say sacrifice?
And they say, because we're sacrificing them.
And I say, you're sacrificing them for your interest and
that's not the way a sacrifice
testament. was supposed to go in the old
something, anyway they want to You're supposed to sacrifice
It's back to words again. They don't want to walk around
saying kill, kill, kill even
doing. though that's what they're
truth from ourselves, or so it So we use words to disguise the
So, okay, the last picture seems to me.
topic is this is a guy in one of before we go on to the next
chairs. tSorry it doesn't project veryte
well. But here his feet are tied and
his tail is tied and his chest
sure which experiment they're idoing on them because his headt
isn't bolted so he might not be in one of these vestibulo-ocular
reflex visual tracking, but if
think I was being treated with they were doing this to me, I'd
Okay, so let's switch to cruelty.
I think, the vivisectors can efficacy.
understanding is that their argument is that the endsy
justify the means.
ethically. That's pretty much it,
to do improve the health of our own species and, therefore, the
monkeys are just kind of
Or we're doing this just to advance our knowledge base.
Knowledge is good; science is good.
I'm a scientist myself. I've got lots of publications.
I do science. I'm a huge fan of science.
And so some of the vivisectors
to increase our knowledge about woulthe neuro control of eyethis
movement during smooth visual pursuit and the vestibulo-ocular
reflex. Is that fair?
Yes.
Is that true?
They are accomplishing that. They are doing that.
And then the question is, but look at the cost to that monkey.
And they would say things like
willing to make, but that's because they're like-minded
people in groups. I think if you were to get a
sample of Wisconsin citizens and
yet more. asThese experiments have beenarn
going on for 30 years about visual pursuit and
vestibulo-ocular reflex, maybe
disagree with that. But the like-minded people in
groups are influenced by that phenomenon that a skew to the
extreme position where pretty much anything goes.
But okay, be fair.
knowledge. It does increase our scientific
Frick advance the health of our And thenown species?this to
Well, that's interesting. Another one of the strangest
things vivisectors say, I published on this at the
Chronicle of Higher Education,
letters I got back from a vivisector because I was saying
how this has nothing to do with Alzheimer's disease, he said,
Dr. Hansen cannot possibly know that it is beyond the realm of
possibility that someday, somehow this will affect human
health. Well, you got me.
I mean, it's pretty damn hard to
realm of possibility that provesomeday, somehow.nd the
And what that means is for them anything goes.
Because nothing is beyond the realm of possibility that
someday, somehow. But I would suggest that if
you're not in that like-minded
the left before you would allow this much pain and suffer, you'd
want a more direct connection to
And even then some people would how isay it's not worth it.ple.
Opinions would vary as to whether the ends justify the
means.
in this study, and I don't know Aif people in Wisconsin do this
or not, this is from the grant, this is from the grant when I
first got involved, they said this may allow us to find the
cause and ultimately the cure for many diseases of learning
and memory such as Alzheimer's
Nothing to do with Alzheimer's disease.
Monkeys don't get Alzheimer's disease.
Alzheimer's disease does not
system. Alzheimer's disease does not
affect the vestibular nuclei. It doesn't affect the cerebellar
flocculus nodular lobe. It doesn't affect the ocular
motor nuclei. Nothing to do with Alzheimer's
disease.
around for years now making this And I've been following them
And when the grant came up for point.
myself, but I notice now because renewal, perhaps I flatter
they took out the Alzheimer's. it's been going on for 20 years
the grant says it's going to And the newest incarnation of
functions and pathways that are compromised in many strokes and
motor disorders and potentially lead to new therapies for
assisting recovery from strokes.
It's got less to do with strokes Strokes?
disease. than it does with Alzheimer's
flow. StrokThey're all aboutblood
atherosclerosis, stenosis,
withholding blood, tissue death, thrombosis, ischemia,
I'm a stroke guy. I know at least as much about
strokes as I do Alzheimer's disease.
It has nothing to do with strokes or recovery from
strokes.
I think that they do this in an Soattempt to deceive.s?
Although, like-minded people in groups, if you hooked them up to
a lie detector they would say well it's not beyond the realm
of possibility that someday,
to do with strokes so I'm not somehow ttelling a lie.something
One of the more honest responses
article was from somebody who Idoes this kind of primateat
research, and he said that's
He goes, those of us who approve just grantsmanship.
never pay any attention to or disprove primate research, we
to human disease. wAll we care about is it goodn
science.
his honesty. So I got to respect the guy to
case is all they care about is And I think that's usually the
But they want to make you care good science.
most of you, or at least a lot about it because I think that
is too high a price to make ofFrick pay to learn yet morehis
about visual tracking and the vestibulo-ocular reflex.
But I don't know, grandma is
this will cure Alzheimer's getting kind of foggy and if
your head in there. dThey're appealing to our fearlt
and our selfishness.
aspect of us. They want us to throw all thet
other animals under the bus.
want to make. AnThis drives me nuts, is it's I
dangerous to interrupt people when they're congratulating
themselves. Because when you pat yourself on
the back and you're startled you
elbow, but they will say things colike it's a sacrifice we're an
willing to make to improve the
Which is a noble motive, health of our own species.
health. eIf that's really their motive,n
if their motive isn't just basic
is, if their motive isn't advancing their research addenda
or getting tenure or writing
about basic neuroscience, if more papers or learning more
the health of our human species, their goal is to really improve
In 2010 there were 10 million preventable deaths, people that
dies of diarrhea, which we can
pneumonia, which we can prevent, prevent, people that died of
It turns out if you really want to improve the health of your
species, putting the monkeys in chair and bolting their heads in
there is not a very cost
If you really want to save effective way to do it.
what they say is their millions of lives, and that's
their word to improve the health motivation, I'll take them at
monkeys go and instead send soap of the human species, let the
This was a study where they looked at what's the effect of
hand washing and the prevalence of pneumonia and diarrhea in
Pakistan. People didn't know to use soap.
It turns out that if you teach
the rates of diarrhea in half. them how to use soap, you cut
one million kids die. SYou cut the rates of pneumonia
in half.
two million kids die. You save three million kids with
soap. So if they're going to justify
what they do based on improving the health of our own species, I
think they are, to use another
wrong tree. dogOkay, thus, primates. the
But it's interesting, I got into
I really got involved in this animal stuff because of dogs.
Boy, do I love dogs.
medical students asked me could AnI help them protest the doghe
vivisection labs at UCSD. So this is a dog and I don't
know if it projects very well but this is a therapy dog.
And this is dog who is visiting somebody in the hospital who is
obviously pretty sick because she's got an IV in there.
And one of the advantages to
to the hospital three times a bweek and I run into therapygo
dogs. I love those guys.
Therapy dogs got the little green jackets, and I always just
drop down to my knees and I get some therapy.
Because dogs are just, they love
And dogs are to love the way us.
They just sprinkle love on you. And if you look up to be, let's
go back to definitions and
name for dog. It's canis lupus familiaris, and
it doesn't mean familiaris like familiar or commonplace or every
day, it means of the family.
intimate. And dogs are the way they are
because of us.
breeding them for 10,000 years. That's a lot of generations of
dogs, and every time we've been selecting for dogs to love us.
That's the behavior we select for.
And now they have no choice.
are hard wired to love us. We've created these animals that
who he has never met, but the love is sincere because he can't
help it.
shaker. TSo you take this dog to thelt
hospital and he loves the patient and the patient
recognizes that.
love. And I guess you could say oh,
I'm being emotional again.
torture and love but those are I'm using words like cruelty and
Dogs really love us, and they all anican't help it.s too.
We've done that to them.
other than treat it like a And so to do anything to a dog,
It's a betrayal of a bond between the species that goes
back 10,000 years.
human animals, nonhuman animals. Everybody likes to talk about
between one kind of animal and Yes, there are differences
Humans are animals but we're another.
animals. different from the other
right to do what we want or And mmaybe it doesn't.s the
Dogs are different from other animals too, and we've made them
that way. We have made them addicted to
humans and to human love. And to treat them badly is worse
than treating other animals badly.
I'm not big, I'm a vegetarian and all that stuff and I'm not
big on factory farms or steaks, but if you're a pig or a cow,
you're just kind of screwed.
anything better than that because humans have always been
eating pigs and cows. And if you're a primate, no
wonder you have to have the collar and get dragged because
you know that somebody is trying
But a dog and a cat, also 10,000 to do really bad stuff to you.
they love us. years oThey love us.reeding,
So the dog therapy is nice. I was at dog beach with my
bulldog, and I met a guy with his dog.
And dogs are talking and we're
dog. talking and his dog was a rescue
after the earthquake, and his dog had saved 15 people from the
rubble after the earthquake.
do that and so now he's retired and he goes to the children'so
hospital and visits kids with cancer.
That's what you can do with dogs.
Or the vivisectors can do this
So this is from Huntingdon Life Sciences, and I don't know what
it would take for them to switch
Sciences. But here they are giving toxic
fumes to Beagles in toxicology
I have two Beagles. I have two Beagles.
Naughty dogs. Sweet, naughty dogs.
And if you look at the lab
painful ads of a beautiful animal magazine, they have these
Beagles are so friendly they Beagle there and they say our
You can do anything to them. will never bite.
They're so cute. Yeah, so Beagles are cute.
killing them. TThe only time a Beagle isn'te
cute is after you've killed it
So at UCSD, where they were killing 50 dogs a year to teach
physiology and pharmacology,
carcasses like this. they ended up with a pile of
And we protested that a lot, and Big bags of dead dogs.
want to do it the academic way, bfirst we have the 300 doctorsu
sign a petition saying please don't kill dogs, you don't need
to do that to be a doctor.
And then I did a peer review They ignored us.
I did a survey of all US medical paper.
95% of US medical schools killed schools, and I found out that
pharmacology, let alone dogs, and 82% killed no animals to
teach physiology. So I thought, well, okay, I got
it published. It's on my CV.
And so I said, okay, I will send
and the IACUC was mandated by an this publication to the IACUC,
Act. amendment of the Animal Welfare
the three Rs. You are supposed to replace thes
use of animals when alternatives
That's one of the three Rs. So I sent to the UCSD IACUC
my article. Peer review article with the
statistics, and I said it is
alternatives. If 95% of schools don't do this,
there must be alternatives. You're not pursuing the
alternative, you're ignoring one
of the animal welfare act. of the R, you are in violation
And the response I got back from That was a very formal thing.
the dog lab issue and they the IACUC was they had reviewed
it raised no animal welfare found, and tissues.quotes, that
And I'm thinking if life-long caging followed by vivisection
followed by killing is not an animal welfare issue, what is an
animal welfare issue? And that's the problem with
IACUCs is they just don't say no.
Yeah, so that's dogs. And then because I also have
cats, it's funny, some people say there are dog people and cat
people, that must be only people
because cats love you just as that hamuch as dogs do.nd cats
They're just a little less overt
They're a little more subtle. They'll wait until you're asleep
and then they'll jump up on the bed.
But they love you because of
breeding and they can't help it. 10,000 years of selective
difference between doing bad So I think there is an ethical
things to rats or mice. tIt may, indeed, be a horribled
bad thing to vivisect rats and
a bargain, it's not a betrayal mice but it's not a betrayal of
genetically engineered to love of a species that we've
And the same thing with cats. And of course people do the same
things to cats. I got involved in this.
This is a study that's being
Weizmann Institute in Israel. And this is a study that they
want to look at Purkinje cells. I'm a big fan of Purkinje cells.
They're big in neuropath. We look at Purkinje cells all
the time. Selectively vulnerable, Purkinje
cell atrophy, ataxia, I love
So this study was, it provided Purkinje cells.
pauses in the Purkinje cell simple spikes activity probably
reflecting underlying bi-stability of membrane
potential in the awake and
And I will give them credit for behavthis.nimal.
They didn't contend that it had anything whatsoever to do with
human health. They just wanted to know that
the Purkinje cells had a
And the IACUCs said sure, go bi-stable membrane potential.
So, obviously I'm a dog man and a cat man and I'm a monkey man.
And so I try to get UCSD, and again I refer to the experts on
site about what goes on at the
I said, look, leave the dogs University of Wisconsin.
much. aLeave the cats alone because
they love us. And leave the primates alone
because they are so much like us.
And in terms of literary
should be we should avoid vivisection of primates because
they are so much like us and we should avoid vivisection of dogs
and cats because they like us so
But it isn't like us so much so I'm willing to sacrifice the
literary quality and say because
So just leave them alone. And in the defense of their
animal use, they say, well, you know, 97% are mice and rats.
Nobody cares about them.
percent are the monkeys, dogs, And less than one-tenth of one
So that's like, you can forget and cats.
It's trivial. Unless you're one of the dogs or
cats or monkeys.
I said, I'm not nearly as radical as some of my friends,
and I am willing to throw the rats and mice under the bus if I
can do something for the monkeys
Meet me one-tenth of one percent and the dogs and the cats.
Is that so much? of the way.
alone because they love us and Just leave the dogs and the cats
us. thAnd they said, no, we're notke
going to do that. And it's interesting, they like
to use terms, vivisectors do, they like to talk about animals
rights extremists.
And they like to sort of hint that we're a little bit.
dangerous.
We're extremists. That weWe're radicals.olence.
We're dangerous.
Well, let me put it to you. If there's a dispute and one
party wants the other party to
percent of the way and the other meet them one-tenth of one
extremist? party says no, who's being the
in? AI'm just a dork holding a signe
in front of the convention
I'm not the one who's killing those dogs and vivisecting those
cats and drilling and impaling
So my contention was when you find yourself on an ethical
slippery slope, build a terrace.
leave the rats and the mice We're not goalone. get them to
I'm sorry about that. I feel bad about that.
But I'm close enough to 60 now, I can see 60 very bright and
clear from where I am, I'd like to accomplish something in my
life before I check out.
to support me in banning And I think I can get the public
and cats. vThey're not going to help me
with rats and mice. So build a terrace.
Leave the monkeys, dogs, and
And if they would do that, it's interesting, if they would do
that, the animals researchers would leave alone those animals,
most of us would stop protesting.
I grant you that might be bad,
of Assisi would kind of feel bad about that, but they're
much better men than I am.
go after the low hanging fruit So I just kind of want to try to
monkeys and the dogs and the and get them to leave the
Is there any hope? cats alone.
animals? Is there any hope for the
I'm a pathologist so I'm by nature kind of a cynical guy
because I see an awful lot of dead people and I see an awful
lot of people's brain tumors
death and I see Alzheimer's that that they're on their way to
anything about. weSo I'm kind of cynical ando
pessimistic but there is reason for hope.
If you look at the historical record, there are animal abuses
that are no longer legal. Again, back to Lincoln, because
Lincoln is a local hero around
he said, we believe that slavery here, Lincoln said about slavery
some men will commit if left is wrong and like any wrong that
by law. Well we believe that cruelty to
animals is wrong. And like any wrong that some men
will commit if left alone it
So no, we're not going to oughpersuade the life-longlaw.
vivisectors to give up their
You have to understand for drills and their hammers.
animals is not a last resort. It's not like oh, gosh we have
this one question, if we could
get the question. jusWe really hate to do this.e'd
It's a last resort to cause pain
For the professional vivisector, and suffering.
That's how they pursue their vivisection is a first choice.
That's what they do. careers.
anything wrong with that because And they don't think there's
groups and they are slammed over they are like-minded people in
position. So we're not going to persuade
them. Although, in fairness, there was
the Apostle Paul and the
historical precedent for Damascus Road, so there is a
And the guy who wrote "Amazing Grace" and worked for
the abolition of the slave trade
So twice in the last thousand years people have changed their.
minds.
count on it. So there's hope, but I wouldn't
to pass laws and protect these So instead we're going to have
So bear baiting, bull baiting, animals from the vivisectors.
that's interesting too. If you read what happened to
Michael Vick, he was surprised
anything wrong. He was in a group of like-minded
people. He was raised with dog fighters,
and he hung around with dog fighters.
It was kind of a clue when he named his kennels the Bad News
Kennels what he was up to, and
surprise that, gee, a lot of it kind of caught him by
Because he was in a group of people think this is wrong.
And a lot of the primate like-minded people.
surprised. vivisectors are kind of
vivisectors aren't surprised Well maybe the primate
doing is wrong. But the encouraging thing is the
closer we get to the people rather than the experts, the
more you leave the fate of
interest in using them, the aniworse off the animals are.ed
Once upon a time no doubt the guy who was running the bear
baiting ring said what are you
You can't pass a law that says I interfering, it's my bear.
And Michael Vick would say can't bear bait; it's my bear.
whatever I want. they're my dogs, I can do
politically incorrect joke that I think covers the hope for the
animals.
more typical of me because I am politically incorrect and I gets
in trouble for this.
a party and he sees this So this is really rich guy is at
goes up to her and he goes I'm gorgeous woman over there and he
I am like Bill Gates rich and you are hot, would you have sex
with me for a million dollars?
dollars? And she thinks, a million
and I'd be set for life and I I meacould go to school.t take
Half an hour? Okay, I'll do it for a million
dollars.
Now, will you have sex with me And then he says great.
And she goes, $10? for $10?
And he said we've established what you are, now we're just
haggling about price. [LAUGHTER]
So that's what we've done with animals, we've established,
we're going to interfere
We're going to stop people from doing things to animals, even if
they are their animals that we
Now we're just haggling about where we draw the line.
We're going to stop bear
We're going to stop bull baiters.
We're going to stop dog fighting baiting.
There are animal cruelty and cock fighting, crush videos.
animal law is a huge burgeoning fefield in law schools.and
California Prop 2, you probably heard about that, that's a
proposition that we passed in California that tells you if
you're a chicken rancher that the chickens can't be in cages
so small that they are unable to
and turn around. spread their wings or stand up
crammed in they couldn't stand They used to have them so
And every time this happens, up or move their wings.
improve the quality of animal elife, the people that are mosto
involved with the animals will
we're the chicken farmers. say well we're the experts,
The factory farmers, we know We know what chickens need.
Well this Prop 2 banned gestation crates for sows and it
banned veal crates for little calves and it banned battery
cages for chickens, despite what
The encouraging thing is the the factory farmers said.
better the animals do. closer you get to people, the
proposition like California did, If you make a statewide
is against it, the chicken Prop 2, the agriculture industry
they're all against it, but if farmers are again it, the veal,
people will actually give the you ganimals a break., the
They get closer to the people.
was an amendment to the JuConstitution to improve there
supervision of puppy mills. Missouri is the biggest puppy
mill state in the country.
dogs in cages, miserable, There ahorrible lives.ills and
They go to pet stores.
fighting against this Missouri And they had a huge lobby
And it passed in Missouri where there are more puppy mills
because there were enough people.
You get a big enough end and
to what's ethical. you'll get a pretty good idea as
And the problem with IACUCs is You just need a bigger end.
that represents regular people, or if they do, they're routinely
outvoted and they're just a token.
But the IACUC is interesting. Animal Welfare Act was actually
passed in 1965 in response to a just horrific photo expose in
life magazine about concentration camps for lost and
stolen dogs.
stealing dogs out of people's yards or taking puppies from a
free to good home ad and sending
facilities. thAnd somebody took thesech
pictures, and as a result of
Welfare Act. that they passed the Animal
later amended to mandate these And the Animal Welfare Act was
And the animal welfare people thought this is great, there's
going to be somebody with a voice on the Institutional
Animal Care and Use Committee.
any animals in a university setting has to get approval from
an IACUC. And so the animal advocates were
thinking this is great, there's somebody looking out for the
animals.
that way. But there's another phrase that
at least the IACUCs exist, and
that there could be a broader representation of citizens on
the IACUCs rather than just the vested interest of the
vivisectors, it could actually
There may well be a case where work.
for spinal cord paralysis. they have a hot new treatment
persuade the general citizens that if we paralyze this monkey
and then try to cure him, it
of paralyzed veterans. will directly lead to treatment
okay, then the ends do justify And maybe the citizens will say,
Maybe so. I don't know.
But they have a right to weigh
have a right to weigh in on whether vestibulo-ocular reflex
is going to cure Alzheimer's
I think they'd call that one in a second.
So IACUCs are interesting because I think they are, to use
a phrase I once came across,
vice pays to virtue. hypocrisy is the complement that
kind of a rubber stamp and it's a fig leaf and it doesn't really
protect the animals but the fact
hypocritical complement of the that it exists is the
animals' interests. viAnd here is some more.r
This is kind of interesting.
vivisection of great apes. European Union banned
wanted them to do that? Do you thinkNo.e vivisectors
Swiss Supreme Court refused permission to do these kind of
visual tracking experiments because they said there isn't
enough direct relevance to human
So this is too intense cruelty health.
Same thing happened in Munich. and insufficient justification.
They banned those exact same Same thing happened in Berlin.
get them to stop at UCSF and experiments that I'm trying to
Oklahoma, for God's sakes, that are going on in Wisconsin.
Oklahoma State University administration was confronted
with an issue that somebody had gotten a grant to do anthrax
vaccine testing on macaques, and
going to euthanize primates on they said, no, you're just not
Oklahoma. Take that Madison, Wisconsin.
But, Dane County, the Dane
gave this talk before that County noble attempt, when I
thought Dane County was showing initiativthe way. I always
This is the idea is you have to have citizens who are not
prejudice in favor of animal
the people that are in favor, ryou could say, okay, all thee
animal researchers have to
are hopelessly biased by their recuse themselves because they
allowed on here who is a PETA research agmember.nd nobody is
Let's just take guys from the sandwich shop.
And then the PETA guys can make their case, like jury duty.
They send out a summons and you have to decide what's going on.
[APPLAUSE]
Okay, so I've kind of blathered and blundered my way through
this, and it's because it means so much to me that I'm less
articulate and less funny than
So I will end with a guy who's usual.
and much wiser than I am. And this is Mark Twain, and he
said this when he was inducted
Society. into the London Anti-Vivisection
interested to know whether He said, "I believe I am not
that are profitable to the human vivisection produces results
To know that the results are race or doesn't.
remove my hostility to it. profitable to the race would not
unconsenting animals is the basis of my enmity for it and is
to me sufficient justification
further. of the enmity without looking
feeling with me and is so strong It is so distinctly a matter of
and constitution that I am sure and sI could not even see amake
vivisector vivisected with
qualified satisfaction. I do not say that I should not
go and look on, I only mean that
get out of it the degree of contentment which, of course,o
it ought to be expected to
So I'll leave him with the last word.
Thank you very much.
[APPLAUSE]