cc
for coming out for Act III >> Jeff Kollath: Thank you all
The War on Record 1961-2008." of I Hope those of you thatm:"
have come to some of the
enjoyed yourselves and found it engaging and enlightening, and I
think today will be equally as
great speakers here on the stage good if not better with three
Before we get started, I'd like to thank our sponsors the
Wisconsin's Veteran Museum, University of Wisconsin, Madison
Integrative Liberal Studies and Afro American Studies
Departments.
in Cleveland, Ohio, RoWisconsin Public Television,um
WORT 89.9 FM community sponsered
our gracious hosts here at the Monona Terrace--
Monona Terrace Community
and with additional support from the Anonymous Fund.
Like I said we are here tomorrow
Veterans Museum at noon with a as well at the Wisconsin
and in country songs with Marty Heuer, Jim Wachtendonk
and Lem Genovese, three Wisconsin veterans.
Then we will cap things off at
Doug Bradley doing what they do best, talking about music.
That should be fantastic. We are all here because of
the Bear family 13 disc 330 song box set, or "Next Stop
is Vietnam: The War on Record 1961-2008."
Hugo can you raise your hand? We're all here because of Hugo.
( applause )
executive producer, reissued Dr. Hugo Keesing is the
box set. producer of this wonderful
he was gracious enough to come We're really thankful that
this together. up here and help us put all of
to introduce our moderator Without further ado, I'd like
She has been a big supporter for today's panel.
having met Doug, Hugo, of this event from the outset
back in May for the 40th anniverasry commemoration
of the events that happened at Kent State in May, 1970.
She has been really great in helping us with this.
I think she is going to have an excellent time with these three
gentlemen.
and what they do. SheDr. Lauren Onkey, the are
vice president of education at
( applause ) the Rock 'n Roll Hall of Fame.
Thanks for having me here. >> Lauren Onkey: Thank you.
a long time, and like Jeff said, I've known Craig Werner
We had an event at Kent State University to commemorate the
40th anniversary of the shootings there.
As I said to Doug, that could have gone horribly wrong to meet
somebody at 9:00 in the morning and spend six hours with them
in a very intense kind of environment.
But, we quickly got to know each
and I learned a lot more about other and were fast friends,
in Madison. I was delighted to be able to
throw what little support the Rock Hall could provide here.
As part of our education
we really see the music as an incredible teaching tool
for toddlers, K-12 students,
general punlic as a kind of univwindow to who we are the
as a culture. It's key to our mission
and what we do at the museum. This topic inparticular is very,
very rich, it's a great interest
students that come to the museum to especially high school
But it's not an easy subject, anwhich is good..
We did a follow-up event to the Kent State event
in June as part of a lecture
Rock 'n Roll Night School. series we have called
songs connected to the war, many of them on Hugo Keesing's
amazing box set,
As soon as we actually tried to talk about race even just a
little bit, the room got pretty tense.
After we played Jimi Hendrix
from New Years Eve in '69, doing "Machine Gun"
for having a "black agenda," some folks were calling me out
We hadn't even gotten to the Dells, and Freda Payne,
and new page, and Jimmy Cliff along the way.
It's been really interesting
African American participation to see how this subject of
but also in the music kind of resonates out there.
As I've said my goal here is to stay out of the way of these
incredible gentlemen to my left who I will introduce here.
Art Flowers on the far left is a novelist, essayist,
performance poet, currently at Syracuse University.
He's the author of novels,
and "De Mojo Blues," a great "Another Good Loving Blues,"
Beatle Street Band," childrens book, "Cleveland Lee's
Confessions of a 21st Century Conjureman."
Tons of short stories and articles, a blues based
performance poet, runs
He served in Vietnam with the a te1st Logistical Commandg."
at Long Binh, and has actually
in a lot of his work. Many of you may have seen him
perform last night. Welcome, Art.
( applause )
In the center there,
principal architect of Stax Volt William Bell, who's a real
"You Don't Miss Your Water," first classic hit,
killer heartbreaking record. in 1961, still a
before that, he was recording records in the '50s as a part
of the Del Rios.
songwriter, and a two year stint Worked at Stax also as a
all that, which he spent mainly in the Armin Hawaii.interupted
Came back to a recording career,
"The Soul of a Bell." fanYou might remember,67,
"Everybody Loves a Winner." And Albert King also recorded
a key song of his,
So many along the way, "Born Under a Bad Sign."
"Tribute to a King," which is "a tribute to Otis Redding."
Just great hits throughout
a personal favorite of mine. the '70s, "Trying to Love 2,"
receive great awards and tour. He continues to record and
by the Blues Foundation with In 2003, he was honored
In 2007, he killed at the Stax a W.C. Handy Heritage award.
Performed at South by Southwest 50th annivein Austin.nion show.
Also performed at the Rock 'n Roll Hall of Fame celebration
of Stax in 2008, and he's still out there doing it.
He served with the Army's 25th
from '62-'63. InfFinally, Madison's ownii
Clyde Stubblefield. ( applause )
Introducing Mr. Stubblefield
but I'll try. hPlaying in his early days with,
Eddie Kirkland and Otis Redding,
an absolute signature sound. a self-taught player,
hip hop beats without ever The man who kind of creates
and certainly payment gefor those great beats.,
Think about a guy whose first record with James Brown
is "Cold Sweat."
drummer. The world's most sampled
for a very long time. His drum sticks were on display
at the Rock 'n Roll Hall of Fame
He's released with Jabo Starks in Cleveland.
"The Soul of Funky Drummers," an inwhich is fantastic.g DVD,
We use it in some of our classes
He continues to perform clinics and concerts.
I'm hoping today we will get
James Brown's 1968 tour of Mr. Stubblefield to talk about
hot in all kinds of ways. VPlease welcome our fabulousn
pannel. ( applause )
Maybe we just kind of start off easy, if you all might give a
sense of sort of how you were kind of crossing paths with
Vietnam with the time that you
experience recording about it, either spent there, or had that
a little bit. just >> You want to start?te us
Oh, no! ( laughter )
I guess I'm elected then. Yes, I'm William Bell,
and I was drafted into the
I got my career off the ground military.
On the second hit record, wI was doing a stint.
at the Apollo Theater.
you have a letter, and it said, My mom "Greetings."d said,
So anyway, I went home
I was already two weeks late. So I was immediately drafted
into the military.
training and AIT training, Upon completion of my basic
to the 25th Infantry. Upon that, of course, to make it
short, we would volunteer from
tours as gunners, and to support time to time to do helicopter
soldiers out of the jungle that pwere wounded, or something.e
From that point on, that's how
the war in Vietnam. I got introd>> Mmm. Vietnam and
Well, on my behalf, I'm originally from Chattanooga,
Tennessee.
southerner that didn't know When I joinothing.n, I was a
( laughter )
One day, he taught me-- HeWe was in New York City,d.
which I had never been. He says, the manager says
go get some shots.
For what? He said we're going to Vietnam
to do some Vietnam shows. I went, "okay."
( laughter )
I just went to New York.
and went back to the hotel. I went doI suffered. my shots,
I suffered so bad from those
I called the front desk and asked for a doctor.
They said, what'd you do? I said, I got shots
because I'm going to Vietnam. They said, ain't nothing
we can do.
I said, oh, okay. So I woke up the next morning
and everything was better.
a flight going to Vietnam. Then we eventually got on
I'm going, "Oh, my god!" ( laughs )
some traveling around didn't We got to Vietnam, and we did
for the soldiers. portions They loved it.ing shows
We loved it so much,
We played in rainy, stormy to please the soldiers.
enjoyed every moment of it. I stayed in a room in Vietnam,
they told me not to open that window or look out that window
there, because the building that
the street, and somebody would they protect was right across
I went, okay, don't worry about shootit. you.
( laughs )
places, and I seen things Butthat I never saw before.nt
And I hope never to see them
People just, living a life, and the soldiers, they were
comfortable.
There shouldn't have been a war, I'm so happy about that part.
They were living a nice life. butI enjoyed myself.ng.
This here was given to me from
He owns a big ship now. I think we all got one of these,
I'm not sure. I'm really proud of it.
I honor that. I just had a beautiful time
in pleasing the soldiers. >> I volunteered into the Army.
( laughter )
to volunteer. I had it in my mind to be
an adventurer, I believe. ( chuckles )
I was in school.
I had just gone through I the whole, you know,.
I was in school.
the Dean's office, etc., We had gone through taking over
say this, but I went on and joined anyway, because I kind of
wanted to just get out
I wasn't even thinking about the and see the world.
( laughter ) fact that there was a war on.
For a fact, if you join the Army And of course--
an option. during that time, they gave you
you want to go, or do whatever They said you can go wherever
The only thing I asked to do was job you want to do.
They said, why sure, you know! be Airborne.
and like I said, I was a Black So then I got over to Vietnam,
this great big afro, which is Militant interesting. so I had
( laughter )
who was processing us I gwas Airborne, and he says,uy
oh, you're Airborne.
He said, okay, we're going to send you to an Airborne unit, he
said, but you got to cut your afro.
I said cut my afro? He said yeah, cut your afro.
I said, well, I'm not cutting my
In fact, I said, what are you going to do, send me to Vietnam?
I'm not cutting it. So, as a punishment, he told me
I had to stay at Long Binh. Obviously, looking back, he wsa
called himself doing me a favor,
General Westmoreland and I because Long Binh,
( laughter ) were hanging out.
Well my first danger there So that's how I got to Vietnam.
going to play some show far in was when I got there and we was
We got on a helicopter, at some airport, and the
military airport and took off.
floor don't do nothing too much 'cause they were shooting at us.
I went whoa, we are in the war, huh?
( chuckles )
they hit the helicopter And thesome kind of way.ey did--
We turn around and went back
helicopter and took off again. to the base, and got on another
Uh-oh! ( chuckles )
was acting like a real soldier. Brown wHe was funny.else, he
( chuckles )
I was in the real war. I didn't know
I didn't have a gun or nothing, but it was unbelievable.
People abuse each other like that, it's so bad.
But, I was there. >> Before we continue, I'd like
to say how much of an honor it is to be on the panel
with my colleagues here.
just being part of this program. How much it's been a revelation
yesterday was just eye opening. This morning, to be on a panel
with William, "I forgot to be your lover," Bell.
( laughter )
growing up. I was asking him, I said,
Bell, how do you look so young? ( laughter )
You were hitting it when I was a kid.
( laughter )
>> Well, looks are deceiving.
a good front. ( laughter ) you got
We actually were fortunate. I was fortunate, because
like I said we volunteered
soldiers and everything. to go on some missions to rescue
in my unit outfit that, of course didn't make it back,
because it was a great danger to
and either hover long enough try to get off into the jungles
for the soldiers to get in, or for them to lift the basket
But, we were trained for, to tas in the 25th infantry, up.
as jungle fighters. All during Hawaii training
we were up in the mountains on the big island, and we were
mountain rappelling and helicopter rappelling, but
we didn't think that we would actually go to the war zones.
Once making a couple a trips, and getting back, and then when
I found out that a couple of my buddies had gotten killed,
the reality sets in that, yeah, this is a war.
It has an effect on you.
cognisant of how many people It makes you just really
Or how many families lose their lives in a war.
or a father or something. thatIt brings it all home.and,
Well, what made me realize, I was doing USO show.
Is when I did the big stage that Bob Hope usually did.
The big one.
the top of the ceiling You had to climb up, looked like
The soldiers are over in the to get on it.
and it was a hot day. wooI had on a tuxedo.e,
( chuckles )
They was all guarding it. TI went up on the stage,.
and that was--
at the stage everywhere. With tanks with guns pointing
We played and it was so hot I wso they came up, a doctorhis.
came out of the field and gave me some shots,
because I was sweating too much.
my vein, and stuff. I go, ah leave it alone.
It was a hot day, that was the
It was a big one. >> It's interesting that
you bring up Bob Hope, right? Because so much of the
entertainment that the soldiers got pop music, or music
of a previous generation, or
So the fact that James Brown a lot of country western music.
And James Brown in '68. >> It was a shocker.
But they loved it.
Art, were you over at that It was heaven to them, yes.
or did you go later? time, when James Brown toured,
Oh, okay. >> The most important thing to
me in entertaining the troops,
in the military, because my last, about 4 months
That's the short timer, as we Icall it, they wouldn't let you
go back on those dangerous
assistant corps director, since my background was entertainment.
We traveled from miliatry installations entertaining the
soldiers, and the appreciation
the ladies that we got and everything from the guys and
It made you feel like you were was just tremendous.
important because for four hours doing something really, really
length of time you were oable to entertain themr
before the next bomb
They were back at home, so to speak, away from it.
Their minds were away from
So it's very important. That, to me, was very rewarding
as a soldier, and just as a person.
In terms of the audiences,
audience member, or just being and Art maybe for you as an
Tension over what you're a soldier, were you--
get to hear and what music listening to, and what people
Music is a force where people are coming together.
But music, also, where you're getting some tension in the
audiences about what they want
want to hear? t>> Well, I didn't so much.t
Mainly, I guess because some
at the shows and stuff, I guess othey were aware of some of the
earlier songs that I had done.
uniform and being able But me being in a military
they were just so appreciative, and everything that you did.
Back then, I only had two hit records that were on the charts,
so a lot of the stuff that I did
We would do a lot of were cover tunes and everything.
Some of the stuff over there, Stthey were able to hear.gs.
They would get records from the PX and the places like that.
They were able to hear
There were a lot of protest songs and stuff out there
about the war, because back home
people about, well, the war, we shouldn't be there,
or we shouldn't be here.
put anything that was derogatory I just always tried not to
I would try to have everything into my show.
Well, it didn't matter what type of music was performed,
they loved it all.
That was the principle It took them back home.
to make them feel like of the thing I would think,
and enjoy the music that way. They loved every bit of the
music, they had great times.
It was very interesting this morning, hearing about
the tensions between country
Because I hadn't really webeen conscious of them.ck.
Mostly we heard music by going to the EM club,
and most of those were Filipino cover bands.
( chuckles )
"La Bamba" was their favorite. They did everything, and
( laughter ) We all knew "La Bamba"
It'd be funny having the They did everything.
sing it loud! Filipi( laughter ) James Brown,
I'm black and I'm proud.
So, we kind of enjoyed music. Then I had my little 8-track.
I don't know if the folk here are familiar with the 8 track.
( laughter )
It's like an early iPod.
care packages. You know, you get your little
I had Nancy Wilson, "Temptations In a Mellow Mood."
You kow, six of them, O.C. Smith, "God Didn't Make
Little Green Apples," etc.
It was interesting. There was a very interesting
presentation this morning.
There were a lot of racial We had a lot of tensions.
them manifesting too much tensionsthrough music.remember
Mostly, folk at the EM club everybody, like Stubblefield,
the folk kind of enjoyed music. Maybe at the NCO club they were
having some other kind of music,
music that we enjoyed. but they gave us the kind of
a neutral ground, where I was, So, music was kind of
It's interesting, because this to a large extent.
music, and I've been thinking about this since I've been here,
listening to the presentation.
wow, how did African American music, in regards to Vietnam,
reflect what African American culture was going through
at the time.
really becoming very assertive. AfriYou had James Brown, was
"I'm black and I'm proud."
I'm from Memphis, so you know, It's interesting.
Stax always had that raw edge, Stax was my thing.
which was not quite as raw. But even Motown was coming out
with the Temptations, Power-- boom, boom...
Even Motown was getting a little
conscienceness on. social and cultural
aware of having lived through >> Well, you kit., I'm very much
During the '60s, the voice of the civil rights movement was
going on. The Flower Power movement was
going on. A lot of things happening during
that time, as some of you well
Music was no different. When we started out, there was a
thing about the music being so
doing was called "race music," segregated because what I was
play it. and certain stations would not
it. But then you have a young man by
the name of Elvis Presley who comes along, and whom I happen
to know personally. He kind of merged everything
together. That didn't set right with a lot
of the powers that be, and all
A lot of the soldiers identified of that.
because it was part of the with music of the '60s, simply
They were into a fight, a war, struggle.
This was a struggle back at home, during just regular times,
so they identified with a lot of
A lot of the songs, like the the songs.
were very thought provoking. statement songs, and all that,
Soldier," and "Marching Off to I did, of course, "Lonely
they could relate to, and they War," and all those things, that
that we're here for a purpose in could identify with, and realize
We're fighting a war here. Vietnam.
going on at home. Like you said, you're part ofn
the Black Power struggle. There was the Klan on one end,
then you had the civil rights thing happening, so it was
really kind of a transitional period, and a chaotic time that
was going on during the American
The music itself kind of was cultural struggle.
things, because after Elvis libroke the color band, so to of
speak, then certain artists,
or pop stations. they did get played on the hip
Clay, which was accepted. IThat was the first Stax recordy
that actually made the Billboard
We were influencing culture Toboundaries within the music.s.
I think that's why a lot of the soldiers really got into it.
There was a question earlier
asked, well, was black America this morning, where somebody
surrounding Vietnam and the role conscious of the issues
They were very much conscious of of black soldiers in Vietnam.
A lot of folk considered black it.
dupes in the community. And it was intersting, because
once again, we had come out of
happening then, and that kind of the struggle that was
us. sWe went through a process thath
we were calling it
whole Brother Me Brother Blood "Blackenization," which was that
You Against the World. Brother Black, Brother, Me and
African American music, which had become reflective of the
struggle, provided a soundtrack for that process of the
blackenization. It just got us through.
Black soldiers felt very
We had none of those issues where we were over there.
I saw different races.
Before, maybe, but by '69, there >> But by '69, it was just--
There were American were thrVietnamese.going on.
There were enlisted men versus the officers.
There was black and white.
"Hear It Loud, I'm Black and >> When Brown sung the song,
Everybody still does. I'm Proud,">> I know. loved it.
( laughter )
anything else, helped people to realize that people are people
the world over. >> Right.
And it brought people together with a common
denominator there that, I like
because a lot of kids, black and this song, I like this music,
I listened to country music whiand stuff long before.it.
I didn't have to hide under the bed to listen to it.
Right.
growing up in Memphis, you heard >> But I listened to it, because
A lot of white kids were everything.
They were sneaking in buying the listening to black music.
getting under the covers with retheir headphones on andand
listening to black music. So, when it became apparent that
okay, it's okay to listen to it,
playing it, I think it just said, okay, people are people,
they have the same wants, desires, and everything.
And once you realize that, then all of the barriers start
breaking down.
because Stax was intrumental, because we were, at the time,
total multi-racial in our makeup
artists. from the executives to the
musicians. We went on tour with mixed
to drive all night on the bus, In some cases, sometimes we had
a hotel. because we couldn't check in to
But collectively, Steve and Duck, and everybody, they were
with me and Al and Booker, and
because we were a mixed group. all the rest of the acts,
mixed. A lot of the horn players were
can't eat in this restaurant, Welnone of us will eat there.ou
So we'd all get on the bus and
and you'd ride the bus all night buy sandwiches and everything,
That was a common ground, and a common denominator that kind of
united everything.
did that. Music was >> Right.e glue that
William, can you talk for a minute about recording
"Marching Off To War" in '66? >> You're going way back now!
( laughter )
military, of course. Yeah, I came out of the
funny thing struck me, that there was dissention within the
community about the war, we shouldn't be there.
A lot of soldiers that came back
honored or recognized, more or from Vietnam, they weren't
fighting for a freedom or your less, as somebody that's
There were like, why were you over there killing people.
It was like a negative
That struck me. I'm going, come on, these guys
are dying every day.
I know what they're going They'through.ing.
I've seen it firsthand. I've been a part of it.
Then, you get home and you run
So I'm saying, somebody has got to write something that can make
the soldiers proud and make them
Yes. feel good.
that Steve Cropper, which Steve >of course being white, and megs
black, we sat down and wrote the
We wrote, not only "Marching Off song and recorded it.
Goodbye," and then I covered a To War," but "A Soldier's
I was just on a thing to make tuthe military guys feel a lot"
more comfortable and make them
reason, because when you get up fein the morning and you don'ta
know if you're going to bed that
peace of mind that tells you night, you need some kind of
So that was my thoughts when I you're doing something right.
For any of you, did music change how you thought about the
war?
late '60s, early '70s, was there Over the course of those years,
you think differently about that music that kind of really made
For myself, I didn't think whole experience?
playing music. about the war while I was there
our show, and making the I just thought about performing
We could've been blown up any soldday, easily.eat.
But we never got into that
So we were just performing and position.
they enjoyed themselves. enjoying ourselves, making sure
and after the show. >> I have it a little different,
because I was wearing a uniform.
Just coming through the airport or coming home, whatever, when
you were home on furlough, you
It was like, why are they looking at me that way, or like
I'm a baby killer, or something like that.
So you have to have, in the back
you were thinking about it. of>> I wouldn't say that ity,
changed my mind about the war.
really think a lot. I Or else I wouldn't have beent
there in the first place. ( laughter )
But when I got home from Vietnam
I was in Knoxville, and I can in 'recall the very moment.lle--
I was in Knoxville, stretched out--
( laughter )
these saxophone riffs came on and Marvin Gaye asked me,
"What's happening, brother?"
to this day. The moment sticks with me
"What's happening, brother?" Marvin Gaye said,
politically and socially I mean, not only was it like
had not experienced, to making conscious on the level that I
I hadn't heard anything like it me think,ever before.stically
So you know, the way it just
mean, he just didn't let you go. segued from song to song, I
something consciously that I had It kind of made me realize
Vietnam. become aware of while I was in
as something that happened to somebody else, some other time.
But in Vietnam, I realized, this
middle of history, that I am is history, that I am in the
And you know, "What's Happening Brother?" kind of crystalized
that for me.
that with Motown, and they kept, The struggle that he had to do
He said, I'm going to do this, saying you can't do that, man.
So as an artist now, that still speaks to me.
Every time I hear it, it takes
It makes me realize what I did me back to that moment.
value. way back in Vietnam that was of
You ended up, of course, So, I don't know.
and your novel. inYou have a protagonist therek
that comes back, several of them, right?
Right.
really wanted to work into your >> So it waart.mething you
Right, my first novel was about three soldiers bringing
the war home. And yes, I'd say that that
played a part.
things I really wanted to do, Whethat drove me to become a the
novelist, is tell the story of
Because it was a really unique black soldiers in Vietnam.
know that it'll ever happen again like that, because it's a
different consciousness now.
you mean there? The uniquness of that moment,t
especially for soldiers.
soldiers. >>But actually, I'd say forck
soldiers, because it was also reflected.
I was saying earlier that the conflict, when I got there in
'69, it was after, you know, all
And Nixon had said that the war these thingsis over.d gone down.
So you know, nobody wanted to be
And I mean, it was, okay, we're the last foothrough? in Vietnam.
No, you're not through yet. I mean, it's through, but you're
not quite through.
through. And it's like, oh, we are
And this was the young soldiers' ( laughter )
The older soldiers were still, attitudes.
like, oh, no, no, no. You know, the whole flower power
was forgotten.
old soldiers were the drinkers. We we( laughter )eads, and the
It was just, so I forgot, what's the question again?
( laughter and applause ) But it was a very special moment
in terms of, whew,
I look at black soldiers in the Army today and I'm thinking, you
know, they don't have,
same hostility to the idea of being in the Army that we had,
and the same kind of like, our
we challenged the Army in a way inthat they could not do now.ew,
My Captain got fragged. And I don't think--
and that's not quite--
because it was the '60s, And a lot of that came out
And it wasn't a black soldier that fragged him, but I mean,
you had the Panthers, and we had
And black soldiers felt very guns, and it was like, okay now.
It was like do not vulnerable.
( laughter ) (###) with me now.
when he introduced "Machine Gun," there's a war in Vietnam
and a war at home.
wouldn't be the same for black >> But it's different now, so it
And now, everybody's a and white young soldiers.
You know, the draft is gone. volunteer.
So you've got a different type of Army.
Clyde, when you were over there, it was a stripped down
version of the band, right? It wasn't the full band?
Was it a few, you went with a smaller group when you were
actually in Vietnam, is that
Yes, Brown normally has two drummers, and he could only take
one drummer, which I was chosen.
I think we had ( chuckles )
It was amazing. We done the whole show.
A full show in 120 degrees. >> It was so hot, oh, god.
I could just take my clothes and
off of them. wring them and water just run
It was a pleasure. Unbelievable.
soldiers? I'm thinking back to some of the
guys that Art's talking about.
did you meet a lot of black soldiers when you were there?t
I met a lot of soldiers,
Black, white, whatever, just met period.
few autographs, gave out a few all the soldiers and signed a
hugs, and everything, and said, drum swe'll see you soon.ds, and
And you were there for a
About two weeks, yeah. couple weeks, was it?
daytime? >> These shows were in the
These shows were in the daytime, right, some of these
shows?
of the day? You were >> Oh, god!the middle
We took a bus that had
Every corner, there was sandbags screens on it, all around it.
Machine guns at every block. with machine guns behind them.
guns. II went, this is unbelievable.e
We never saw any of them fire.
fire was when we was on one of The only time we saw something
shooting at something on the the air bases, and they were
But otherwise, we never saw anything beside the helicopter
we were in. Nope.
But we were right in the middle of the war.
Today, I can't believe it.
That was something that James Brown was eager to do,
right?
Yes, he wanted to entertain Hethe soldiers like Bob Hope.re?
Bob Hope had been there so many times.
I had seen his show on TV, and
that I would be over there I had never thought in my life
I went, okay. per( laughter )hat stage.
Could we think of more
and James Brown, right, in terms opposite people than Bob Hope
culture and everything. of what >> Really.for our
But I don't know whether you
But I read that James was trying know about this.
make it happen. to And it wasn't until aftern't
Dr. King was murdered that he actually was invited to the
White House by LBJ, and they
Is that right? were able to make it happen.
I don't know how he got there. >> Well, as far as I know, see,
there, and they would not accept But he was trying to get over
But after he hung out with LBJ him at that time.
( laughter ) and stuff.
That's the time I knew about him He got over there.
then he got over there then. trying to get over there, and
in the changeover to what you >experienced so much, right, ifr
we get into April and May of
change, doesn't it, William, '68, Stax begins to really
The situation at Stax starts to after Dr. shift.s killed.
Oh, yeah. That was a very big change,
of course.
multi-racial in the first place. Like I said, Stax was
the atmosphere in Memphis at the We caught a lot of flack because
We had people-- We would come out at night and turn around and
lock the doors up in the studio.
whites involved, which there And if there were blacks and
singers and stuff, the police would pull over and want to pat
you down, and trail you as you
kind of stuff. got in the car, and all that
Sanitation March, of course, When Dr. King started, the
And us, being at Stax, the that escalated everything.
of the ghetto. studio was located in the heart
assassinated, everything in Memphis just went up in chaos
and smoke, so to speak. But to show you about the
neighborhood that we were in, practically every building was
vandalized or firebombed, except
They would not touch it. Stax.
us would walk out in the We had occasions where some of
parking lot across the street at afternoon, and we had the
And to walk Steve, or Duck, or the time.
across the street, we had to some of the clerical people
Isaac, myself, and I think David really do it as black and white.
to the radio station to try to Porter, they asked to come down
the fires, and all of that calm the people down and stop
But it was a really chaotic time stuff.
Out of that chaos, of course, developed a new understanding
among blacks and whites about,
way, or are we going to change do we really want to live this
everybody, you know. and make things better for
things that I realized in coming I think that was one of the
because the hotel that he was oassassinated in, we used toat
write.
have writing sessions all night, We'd check into the hotel and
town would come in. anWe were very familiar withf
everybody, the hotel owners and everything.
So it was just a time for reassessing what you're all
about as a person and as a
I think we had a couple meetings community.
commission, the mayor, and other downtown with the police
Out of that, Stax was right in folk.
along with Sun Records and the thick of it, because we,
that people really revered, so Elvis' estate, were the things
So we just kind of really had to to speak, during that time.
as a community and make things come together and pull together
That's what happened. >> Of course, we're talking
about the same period.
the war is escalating, you know, We've got the Tet Offensive, and
on simultaneously as '68 so both of those kind of going
You can feel the music shift, or unfolds.
there's struggles at Motown for Marvin Gaye to do what he wants
to do, and Stevie Wonder to do
starting to hear that. what he wants to do, and you're
through the music, you know, in It had to bVietnam.t some way
Of course.
of the entertainers, because It was felt deeply among most
Allen Toussaint went in the same with the exception of a few,
other entertainers that I know time that I did, and a couple of
few, a lot of entertainers of, but with the exception of a
firsthand the war. didn't get to experience
dissention and a lot of people But back home, you had the
been there; we're losing the saying, well, we shouldn't have
And when the soldiers would come war; we lost the war.
now, cheer the soldiers at home, rather than like we do
saying why were you over in the first place, and call them babye
killers, and stuff. It was a real traumatic time for
them. A lot of the guys would come
back, and being in Vietnam for
either they came back on drugs, or something, but they had to do
something, whether they were
something to try to cope with drinkingthe situation.ad to do
Really, in those jungles, it was
To come back home and still have really bad.
lot of the entertainers decided, people to react that way, then a
ask to go, a lot of them, you wknow, they didn't ask for the't
war.
country and they should be shown But they're fighting for their
in song-- There were a few songs that they are appreciated, both
Edwin Star's song about the war. that came out, like I think
Absolutely nothing, which in What is it good for?
But war is still going on. effect is true.
don't profit from it, so we We read astill fight., but we
Correct.
But I think that any person that >> What can you do, you know?
home and surroundings to go to goes, leaves his family, his
respect when they come back. war should be treated with
Because while you're there, you're not there because I want
to be over there fighting and killing, but I'm there to make
home safer, to make my wife,
my neighbors, so they have a my family and my whatever,
You're there, you're doing a safe place back home.
country, but for yourself and servyour family, too.your
That respect should be there. >> Definitely.
A lot of times, it's not.
Two points that are contrary. One, sometimes war is necessary.
You know, we want to do a just
necessary. war, but sometimes war is
know it was the case often with Twwhite soldiers, but blackd I
soldiers didn't really come home
I can't speak for everybody. to the black community.
the experience of my brothers, In my experience, and in the in
after, let's say the when black soldiers came home
King got killed, and the transitional point of '68, after
the story of black soldiers in struggle kind of hardened, and
of the culture, when black Vietnam started becoming part
black community, they weren't, soldiers came back home to the
It may have been the case with we weren't looked down on.
not in the black community. Black soldiers were treated kind
of with respect when I came home
By then, we had kind of developed a little reputation,
you know, for defying authority,
I played the role of Vietnam etc.
( laughter ) veteran for quite a while.
but it didn't happen that way in >> That was in your community.
What year was it? >> Well, I came back in '66.
Okay, by '70. >> It probably changed some,
yeah. >> Like I said, I can't speak
for anybody.
soldiers, I think soldiers in >> But it general.just black
When I came back, they were just
some reason, the majority of the looked down upon, because for
shouldn't have been over there; It was an unjust war, and why
were we ever there in the first place; and we lost the war.
So all of that was just kind of directed toward the soldiers.
Now, the black soldiers,
We did have have one problem. We go over and fight a war.
And if you're lucky enough to come back, and then still there
were places that we couldn't eat
restaurant that we could eat in, and we couldn't go to a
hotel. or we check into a certain
while. We fought that battle for a
think in Memphis, and I got back As far as being a soldier, I
a lot of the communities, you inknow, that it was just not. in
War is greed for someone
I'm sorry? else, that's what it's about.
else to win. >> War is a greed for someone
war, we don't win war. Someone else is going to win
I think nobody wins a war. We fight it.
believe me. >> ThereThere is.involved,
They are greedy.
I'll clarify that. >> The reason I say that, and
Vietnamese, or Chinese, or the You fight a war, whether it's
you come home and say five years Japanese, or the Germans, and
okay, fine, that country is no lapse, and all of a sudden,
friends now. longer our enemy, so we're
that 10,000, 20,000, 100,000 Why did you go over and kill
and say, it's okay to love that person right there right now,
because we're not at war. I just think that war is one of
the most senseless things that
Personally, this is my personal observations from living as long
as I've lived, and have seen
after war, and gone through war family membemyself. through war
It's like an uncontrolled game.
It is.
nations, and stuff, but as far It's a power struggle among
any travel, you realize people as the regular population and
We have the same desires, afrustrations, whatever,r.
no matter what culture you come from.
Even if you don't speak the language, the emotional range is
still there.
killed. Nobody wants their families
bombed, or whatever.
better ways, and I've said that many times since I've been out,
and everything, and after fighting a war.
I've said that there should be
sit down and agree and disagree. ways that we should be able to
looking at it. That's the utopian way of
probably in my life. But it will never happen
war is a failure of policy. >>> Yeah, when you've got toot
many greedy people. >> Okay, I'm in total agreement.
But war is part of a very complex human condition.
And sometimes, well, I mean I hate to go there, but fighting
Hitler. I mean, sorry, but I mean,
sometimes war is just sometimes war.
I agree, totally, that it's always best to come up with
other options and to work very
to that point. assiduously to avoid it getting
that you've got to be ready if But you know, I also believe
I say that as a committed universalist, as a committed
pacifist. But I also understand that the
human condition is very complex in that way.
What we were talking about--
thinking about when we were talking about people coming home
from war, I was thinking about
I was in an anti-war peace, a while back, it was Soldiers
Against the War.
actually. I got a lot of empathy for them,
because when I was in the Army, you couldn't do but one year in
Vietnam.
couple weeks off, R&R, because Even then, they gave you a
Soldiers now have got to do two, it was considered stressful.
oh, no! threIt's like that's unreal.ke,
Part of that is because we've kind of cut a deal where we're
just going to send them, we've
You know, whatever it is that American society has just
stepped away, and it's like the war, it doesn't affect us
the way it should.
( applause ) So, you've got these soldiers--
know, you just kind of, I don't Anknow, you just kind of hopeou
that they-- I don't know, but I don't
think it's sustainable. If anything, what were subjected
to coming back is nothing to
hafour and five times.e,
Maybe this is a good time to
have out in the audience and see what kind of questions we
conversation. Are we going to do this on mics,
or just questions from the
Mics or no mics? audience?
as a no mic. I'm going to take that
Questions out there? ( laughter )
All right, from soldiers and Yes, right in the middle.
It's an open-ended question. musicians, Hendrix and the war.
I don't know what to say about >> Welcome home, welcome home.
Are we supposed to say something that.
( laughter ) about that?
Well, you know, >>Jimi's my boy!.
( laughter )
man, you know, present company-- Airborne, and the best blues
Best blues man that ever was. But you know, what can you say
about Jimi. I'm not quite sure what to say
about Jimi, except that I bow before him.
It's interesting how he goes
he's making occasional comments about in general supporting the,
war, and you know, coming out of
and kind of slowly learning a belot more and kind of finding,
ways to get at that confusion musically.
The way the culture evolved on that.
You've got to support the troops, because that's
unthinkable not to support your soldiers.
You've got to support them. >> Because they're there, a lot
of times, they're there because they volunteered as patriots.
Sometimes they get drafted, or
times they're there, and they for don't want to be there.ot of
They feel they have to be there.
So you have to support them. Which is true.
that is when they come home and they don't get the things they
should have.
There's a lot of things when you >> Well, that's true.
of soldiers, they wind up colosing, or can't find jobs,ot
losing their homes. >> Right.
There are a lot of things that go along, I call it
collateral damage, peripheral things that go along with a war.
Then you have the situation of all the chicken hawks who
don't mind sending soldiers to
them when they get back. war, but they don't want to help
them off, we don't help them The fact that they're sending
The soldier has a worse life when they're there.
in Vietnam. >> Or Iraq and Afghanistan, is
what we're talking about now. >> Some of us who were against
the war wanted to support the soldiers, but we were against
the government intervention.
No, you're right. It is>> It's not.ple.
It's a complicated thing. Like I said, if you asked a
soldier if they want to be on the front lines getting shot at
and being shot, most times, they'll tell you no, but I feel
I have to be, you know, because my country has asked me to
serve, so I'm here, which is
a country and you get the fruits rightly so, because you live in
But again, if we had other ways that are contrary to war, I wish
we could find them. >> I don't agree with you
saying, my country. I don't think it's your country
that you're going to fight for. You're fighting for someone
else, not your country. >> Well, I disagree with that.
You live in this country. >> Right.
You reap the benefits, the
You're able to travel from state fruits of this country.
Why would you have to fight tfor it?.
Well, because if there's a
Who started the war, though? war going on.
Nobody wins in a war. >> Well, >> Right.t matter.
It doesn't matter who started it.
It shouldn't be.
theoretical question. A man comes to your house and he
kicks your door in. You don't want to fight.
What should you do? Should you let him come in and
just take over? >> Call the police.
( laughter )
and a half later, and then what? >> And they get there an hour
Then what? ( laughter )
or an hour and a half later. They get there 30 minutes
You've got to defend what's yours, your family,
your property at that time. That's what I'm saying.
If a war breaks out, whether
bomb somebody and creates the wewar, hey, it's still a war. we
But still, there's no reason. >> Right, there's no logical
reason, but the war is still
It's been going on for thousands there.
it's been going on for thousands of years, and everybody knows
But nobody profits from the mistakes.
You know, the question of what do you do, the question of
how do you not support a given
specific, let's say Afghanistan. war, and let's be kind of
have to support the troops, Withthat's difficult. to--
That's just difficult.
figure out how to do it. But I mean, most of us kind of
going to have tension with it, But you know, you're always
Because basically, you've got some guys who've got issues.
But mostly, it's young, dumb
aren't conscious of the greater like I waspoliticals.ust kind of
You just have to kind of work with it and be conscious of the
fact. It's something you've got to
work with.
When you're 18 and the I don't have an answer.
everything, you all build up testosterone is flowing, and
you know, glorified. that this is something that's,
bullets whizzing by you, and you Then you get into it where the
you, his head blown off, all of a sudden, you realize, but it'so
too late then.
( inaudible ) >> I wanted to make
a comment in relationship to the
from Vietnam, and what was Vietnam veterans coming back
I got back in October of '68. I'll give you my personal
feeling.
was the political football. We were at the height of
political tension in this country, the polarization in
this country in 1968, in
elections, in November of '68, Chicago, the convention and the
election and coming into the the whole Nixon winning the
felt like a political football, because what was happening heree
was the people opposing the war identified the military
personnel as the people,
continuing on so long. the reason that that war was
fighting, so we were the cause We were going over there and
actually going and fighting, of the war, because we were
Correct. not resisting.
political ideology and >> And those who supported the
war, we were the ones that were going over there, and not doing
a good job. >> Right.
In fighting a military
We were the ones that were-- conflict.
Losing the war, and we >> Losing the war.
soul into winning that war. werenThat's what I felt.t and
And very frankly, I felt like they're just not even
acknowledging the fact
I was in denial for a number of that Iyears.here.
And you are not alone.
And you probably still don't >> I am beginning to learn that.
there fighting. have >> Oh, definitely. were
I went there. My dad had fought in World War
II, and in the South Pacific. ( inaudible )
Or at least didn't want the Americans imposing.
Right.
talking about no Vietnamese >>ever called me (###).Ali
( laughter )
for a second, if that's okay. Was there a pull or an influence
for the soldiers, during their tour over there,
from the black churches and gospel music, or was it an
almost completely secular musical landscape?
I'd say that was
Most of the music on the AFNI an and stuff was secular.g.
But you know, individually, you'd go whichever way you'd
want to go. I wouldn't know.
I haven't looked at it to make a
I'd say that I think it was difmostly secular.nt.
But if you had folk who were
religious. religious, they'd listen to
know, the music at the EM club, the music at the shows would be
secular.
I just wanted to say I I don't know, fellas.
Franklin, "Respect," which was haven't heard the name Aretha
It was. >> And what it meant to be
black.
community? >> As far as the black
I don't know if that was one >> Do you mean in Vietnam?
I know that "I'm Black and I'm of the key songs.
"Respect," lyricly, it could've been, but I'm not privy to it.
To my knowledge, "Resepct," was a major piece, but it was
more of a feminist statement. It was the women, respect,
buddy.
That line is in the alternate ( version, right?
( laughter )
had this huge concert, and one >> When I got back from Iraq, we
organize that was --, and he put of the gentlemen that helped
of artists, spanning anywhere tofrom Ted Nugent and KISSl
to JZ and Destiny's Child.
opportunity, because it was open It was a really nice
but to their families and things not only to service personnel,
So I know after, when you were a like that.
organizing some of these short-timer, you went about
opportunities for service meaningpersonnel.ainment
I was wondering if you could
went into putting that together to identify what was important
for them to hear musically, you know, as an entertainer, what it
was like to get out there, if you could address what it was
like as an entertainer, to be out there in the moment as a
peformer. >> Well, the first thing is that
we wanted to able to entertain
take him to a place where he and to get the soldier to just,
actually on the front lines during the war, like I said, for
that two hours or four hours, or
that you've got. whatever, depending on the acts
wanted to put together the type of show that he could take away
from the concert and feel good
about maybe making it through this or getting back home, and
all of that, so keep him in a positive frame of mind.
That's mainly what we would look
The soldier's too, they looked forward to hearing
American music. They had so many radio stations
they would pick up records over there, that that's what they
would be listening to.
there, made them feel bad, so Tthey would listen to Americaner
music and that would pep them up.
Give them a little taste of home, and stuff.
That's an interesting question. >> In addition to, you know,
trying to chill them out for a
just saying, did you ever feel couple hours, and what you were
illuminate or was that a little too much to ask for under the
circumstances?
you? Do you know what I'm asking
felt good, and you also felt >> Well, as an entertainer, you
transform them into something else, and being someplace else.
But you knew that wasn't going
to do is get them into a frame to happen, so what you would try
there, they're being of mind that while they're
the dancing girls, they're entertained, they're watching
whatever, listening to the listening to the songs,
And then once they leave, they music.
little feeling of home. still have>> An oasis.f that's a
You talked about chilling out.
I think that was the term you used.
I would think Clyde, that you guys weren't chilling anybody
out.
very, very excited. ( laughter ) people
I don't know what they must've
that you brought there in that done with that kind of energy
Then, even having just the heat.
energy, you know, to get up and dance, and forget about sitting
and watching the flash of light or something and not knowing
where it's coming from. That just in itself was just
wonderful for the soldiers. >> Yes.
The ones that I could get to
they were just so glad we were shake your hands or something,
It was a magical moment. there, you know.
know that they're not forgotten, >> It also lets the soldiers
of the details and the hoops you know, because they knew most
there. that we had to go through to get
here? >> Did( inaudible )uestion over
Did you say hiphop is never played on commercial radio?
( inaudible ) Oh, yes it is.
( inaudible ) >> I think she's saying that the
gansta/angry is the one that
Well, my personal feel being kind of gets the play.
music, I think if they-- a musician and a creator of
things that are happening What in today's society.ut is
But even though they call themselves poets, and "they"
when we're talking about
that. musBut I think if they would of
present it in a way that could
it's not what you say, it's how be playeyou say it.dio, that
I'm sorry to say it is played on the radio.
Well, some of it. But a lot of the mainstream
radio just will not play a lot
of women. And totally, I personally agreeg
with that.
I think she's asking, and Thercorrect me if I'm wrong.ng.
( inaudible ) >> Well, you're not tuning in
to that station.
She's saying politically ( inaudible )
played commercially, instead you conscious rap is not being
( inaudible ) >> You mean that there might've
been a voice for more politically conscious music in
popular radio in the Vietnam
Some rap is very relevant. period versus now?
pertaining to what's happening Like I said, it's about and
But it's the way you present it. now in society.
as long as it's not in such a harsh way that people turn off
from it.
that are writers, that create Trap, that are very, very good.e
They're knowledgeable.
knowing how to present things. They're very well educated in
rapping and gansta rap, they But then there's the street
right to it and cut through the don't color ichase.they just go
History has apparently
marketable. decided >> Sure.gsta is
And apparently it is, because people pay for it.
You know, the rap that we prefer, apparently people, or
not as many people, are paying
It's a difficult call. for it.
song like Edwin Starr's "War," >> It is hard to imagine that a
pop charts now, you know what I there would mean?smash on the
There's some records like that
It depends, because what he thawas talking about when youme.
listen to the lyrics, it's
but I think-- doI don't know if it would gett,
played as much on popular radio now.
That's what I'm saying. That kind of song being a smash
hit.
it would be a smash now, because >> Oh, smash hit, I don't think
merged, which is a problem. You don't have the independent
stations that can decide what to
community, and everything. put on or what's good for this
programmed in Timbuktu someplace You've got 200 stations that are
community, so you know. >> I wanted to ask, when they
throw a word out--
I'm thinking of the intensity between the audiences that you
played for, or being a member of
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the the audience.
King was assassinated, you guys nwere in Boston that night,r
correct?
going on? Was t>> We were in Memphis,show
Tennessee, that evening.
We were going to play in >> Okay.
Someone came up to Brown and Memphis that night.
Boston right now. So the bus went to the airport
and we got on a flight and flew right into Boston, and did that
TV show thing.
intensity of the audience in >> I'm just curious about the
assassination, versus the intensity of the audience in
Vietnam.
who were just on the edge of We were talking about people
and how the music kind of reflected that, but also gave it
a sounding board. >> Right, it brought people
together. It made them understand that
they shouldn't be doing what
It brought people together. It was fabulous, fantastic.
You know, I saw a lot of things that I couldn't believe, but
music done it.
concerts that were just after. >> Mr. Bell, about all the
( inaudible ) I think for three or four
months, they didn't have any
didn't want people congregating. live concerts, because they
time, so they just curtailed all Memphis was a hotspot at that
When the concerts started back, of course you had people that,
some of the artists had cut some
things. And then you had people like
Curtis Mayfield that had "Keep
stuff. on Pushing," and all of that
But people were a little more cognisant of the effect of
hatred and bigotry, and stuff like that then.
Well, I seen Brown--
brought it home. >> That just kind of really
tolerance of any kind of music, that you have the right to play
it or sing it.
you have a right to do it. I might not agree with it, but
exactly what you said. >> I saw Brown do in Boston do
it should've been a war like He brought people together when
Unbelievable. There were no fights after the
show in the streets or nothing. And that was amazing, because
you'd have fights after basketball games, football
games.
after Brown finished, it's like Thisnothing ever happened.eful
That's what music should do.
It should take you from one gamut to the other, feeling
happy, sad, energetic wanting to
music. dance, that's the power of
Tha( inaudible )hould do.
( inaudible )
( applause )
I appreciate your comment, >> Thank you.
part of the war, whether you're bback home or whether you're ona
the front lines, or whether you're in the hospitals.
But the struggle still goes on, and I feel your pain.
But women have always been a
( inaudible ) part of >> Right.ary wars.
Really, the woman is the boss.
( laughter )
there, just musically, Country >> You know, I'll thrown in
great songs about war nurses in JoeVietnam, because he gotsome
interested in this whole
of another example where you're sactually seeing some musicalk
representation of this. If you go to Country Joe's
website you can find out a lot
some of that music. about that pYep?ct and hear
( inaudible )
That's a complex question.
I don't know exactly how to ( laanswer that.
I'd have to say music probably
depending on the person or the did all of the above, you know,
Music did play a major role. demographic.
above, I don't know how to Other than saying all of the
people, I'd say that music answer that, because for some
and kind of kept them chilled probably did out.ide catharsis
And for some, it may have aggravated their issues and
tensions. But without having looked into
it, you know, systematically, I wouldn't know how to answer that
question. But music did play a major role,
because it just played a major
The resistance and flower power, role in the culture of the time.
their conscience of what was SDS, etc., you know, we were
Gentlemen, thank you very much going on back in the states.
This was fantastic. ( applause ) for sharing oughts today.