9UNP0220SD_Jones_Rice_WordPress

- Good evening. On behalf of the Wisconsin Humanities Council, I'd like to welcome you to the 2008 Wisconsin Book Festival. We wouldn't be here without our generous sponsors. So I'd like to take a moment to thank them. Tonight's event was made possible by the University of Wisconsin Press. Our presenting sponsors include the Argosy Foundation, the Evjue Foundation, IMS, the Isthmus, Overture Center for the Arts, TheDailyPage.com, the Pleasant T. Rowland Foundation, The American Girl Fund for Children, and the National Endowment for the Humanities. Dozens of other organizations and hundreds of individuals contribute their time and funds. Thanks to all of them. 

And a special thanks to the Festival volunteers in the bright green t-shirts. Tonight, you'll find A Room Of One's Own selling both the cloth and paperback editions of "Picturing Indians." Please consider that as a very special holiday gift. Tonight, you'll be hearing a special kind of presentation, two presenters, Janice Rice and Tom Jones are joining us today, bringing to us the Ho-Chunk perspective on this book, "Picturing Indians," by Steven Hoelscher. Thank you very much. 
(applause)

- I'd like to thank everyone for coming out. So, we're representing Steven this evening. And I don't know if Janice would like to begin with how Steven came to her, also, then I'll chime in afterwards. 

- Hi, everyone. My name is Janice Rice. This is a really exciting project for me. When I first met Steve, he was a grad student at the time. And I was a member of the Wisconsin Historical Society Board of Curators at the time. And at one of our meetings, Bill Cronon announced that there was going to be this really nice presentation on Saturday, the following weekend. And there would be a presentation about Wisconsin Dells and the photographer, H.H. Bennett. So I was really excited about that, just because I grew up in Wisconsin Dells during the summers. And I thought this would be an exciting presentation to go and see. And when I met Steven, he had a lot of really beautiful photographs of the river, and the people, and the steamboat, and all the really interesting things that brought tourists to the Dells. 

So I took the initiative at the end of his presentation to go down and talk to him. And I gave him my business card and told him that there's more to the story, because there's Ho-Chunk people that lived along the river there, and there was an intersection of lives of a lot of people, and that it was really an enjoyable part of my life. And he should think about exploring it a little further. And that's about all I said. And after that time period, we eventually developed the H.H. Bennett History Center in Wisconsin Dells. So that became an even greater project that brought Steven into the collections, using them and working with them. So I was very excited about the project. And I didn't know that he was going to write this book and make the changes that he did from his original intent. I think he was going to write a biography of H.H. Bennett. But as it turned out, he covered a lot of the territory of the lives of the Ho-Chunk people. 

So, I'm not going to say much more than that. That's how I first met Steven. And it was really a great interaction that I had with him. And he started to be in touch via email, also phone calls. And then I worked also with the Ho-Chunk Nation, the Heritage Preservation Office, and one of my relatives. And also a past dancer at Stand Rock Indian Ceremonial, was Suzette Arnst. And at the time, she was the, I think, cultural resources coordinator for the Ho-Chunk Nation at the time. So she was instrumental in getting a lot of the connections going that helped Steven to make the connections with the Ho-Chunk people. So I'm really pleased that this book has come out finally, and that we have a lot of information to share. And I'm really glad to be here tonight, because it touches on so many things that I am interested in. 

I'm a librarian, so I'm always interested in books. I also love the Wisconsin Dells and the Wisconsin River. And the Ho-Chunk people are just so meaningful to me, and a part of my life. And it's something that my grandparents and my parents were also involved in, so when you have so many ties to something that's good, you can't resist talking about it. So I'm really pleased to be here tonight. Thank you very much. 

- And the way that I was introduced to Steven, actually, I introduced myself. I was in grad school at the time down at Columbia College in Chicago. And I was doing a thesis on Bennett's work, also, of the Ho-Chunk. And so, I'd seen that he'd written on Bennett. 

So I was trying to get some information from him. And so, that kept happening. I think it started in 1999. And we just kept up this connection. And at the time, he was doing, you know, the full biography of Bennett. And I think as he started speaking with the Ho-Chunk, he had decided that this what the book should be about. And while there weren't a lot of images of the Ho-Chunk, I was really just pleased to see the outcome of this, and how he brought in the history. And it's just so much more than just Bennett. So it is really exciting to see. And so, that's how, he decided to put my own photographs in the final chapter. 

During the time, Bennett also had the belief, as many others, that Native Americans were a vanishing race. And so, Steven wanted to say, hey, here's a Ho-Chunk photographer who's now photographing more than 100 years later. So let me get started and show you some images here. This is Bennett. He was photographing from 1865 to 1908. And he's mostly known for this type of work along the Dells, of the waterways. What started happening, is a lot of people were interested in the Ho-Chunk and coming to see the Native Americans. And so, he was not able to photograph all the time. There was a period of five years where I think he had taken some photographs, and the Ho-Chunk seems to have stopped. Actually, I want to say, there's a line in here that Steven had in his book which I think is really apropos and still the same for Ho-Chunk now. 

It says, "As active participants in the transcultural photographic encounter, Ho-Chunk allowed the tourist promoter to photograph themselves, but only when they wanted, where they wanted, and how they wanted." And I think that says a lot about the whole book itself. And so, he was not able to get a lot of images. There's a very small percentage that he did take. I think there's maybe only about 30 different images of people while he, you know, may have taken multiples. But this is where he ended up buying this canoe from the Chippewa further north in 1892. And so, there's this kind of like absent presence of the Ho-Chunk. But yet, this boat does not represent our tribe. We generally had dug out wood boats. Another thing that he did, too, to kind of bring the tourists and play with the Native American kind of legend, or stories, is he ended up naming a lot of these places. 

And different ones were the Indian Cavern, Indian Lovers Rock, Squaw's Bed Chamber, Blackhawk's Roost, Blackhawk's Cave, Blackhawk's Leap. And so, this was another way that he was bringing kind of this illusion to the Dells. And I think if you want to talk about removals at all. 

- I guess I could talk a little bit about it. You'll notice from the map above that there were several removals of the Ho-Chunk people. And you'll notice the map says Fort Winnebago. Back during the time that the treaties were negotiated, we were called the Winnebago people. So, sometimes, people don't remember that we were called the Winnebago, just because Ho-Chunk has gotten so much publicity and visibility now. But you'll notice the years are written there, 1829, 1832, 1837, 1855-59. When the first removal happened, it was to Turkey River, Iowa area, and then further up into Minnesota, and into the Blue Earth area. 

Then, Long Prairie and the far northern reservation area up there. And during the time that they were negotiating up in the Minnesota area, they were also trying to get the Menominee people over there. And that all didn't work out. In every case, the Ho-Chunk people left. If they were removed and taken by boxcar out west, then before you knew it, there'd be a Ho-Chunk family escaping back, and coming back to the homelands of Wisconsin. And then, you'll notice that they eventually moved to Crow Creek Reservation in the Dakota Territory. So we also still have some Ho-Chunk people who have some connections there. So there's more of a Sioux influence there to some of the dancing that we have further west. You can see some of the influences of being in the Dakota Territory. Then eventually, the last removal, the last treaty, the Ho-Chunk people ended up on the reservation in Nebraska, where they had acquired land from the Omaha people in the Three Corners area there, where Iowa, Minnesota and Nebraska intersect. 

So it's not really too far across the border. And for many of us, it's a weekend trip. And sometimes, relatives get together and we still travel back and forth to Wisconsin, back to Nebraska, back and forth. And there are some other settlements from all the removals that happened, some Ho-Chunk people that remained in Minnesota, but not on reservation land, in the Blue Earth area and Long Prairie areas, mainly concentrated in the Blue Earth area. I don't know if you want to add anything else to that. 

- Well, I think it's really important to know. It's like my great-grandfather, as Janice had said-- Just to give a little anecdote. As a child, he was ice skating on a lake, and he was grabbed and thrown onto these boxcars. Generally, at that time too, they would burn down all the villages. And I'm going to go on to this next image here of Yellow Thunder. 

There's a story I'd heard, where a lot of times he would be removed and then he would make it back before the people who had taken him out there. So they'd take him out on the boxcar, and then he'd walk back to Wisconsin. And Yellow Thunder was actually one of the instrumental people who bought land. And so, a lot of the Ho-Chunks came to also live there. And since he bought the land, we were then able to stay at this place. One thing that you should also notice in a lot of Bennett's photographs, is that he is constantly posing the Ho-Chunks. None of them are kind of like, I can't think of the word, I guess kind of like a candid shot. The majority of what he made his money off of were these stereoscopes. And this is Coo-nu-gah, which means first boy, and Big Bear. I'm not sure if this is the same Big Bear that we'll see in later photographs. 

I kind of assume that it is. And also, if anybody has any questions while we're going through this, please feel free to ask us. This is He-noo-gah, and I think it's supposed to be Chun-ka-day. These were done in the 1880s. And this is Wunk Sheek Che-da. Jump in if you want to say anything. And a squaw tanning deer skin. I think is supposed to be pronounced Wah-koo-cha. 

- Wah-koo-cha. 

- Yeah, that's the thing that I've found, also, in the way that he's written them out. 

They're not saying the right thing. But here's one where, you know, it's clearly posed for the camera. Because in general, what happens is, when they're playing this game, there are two separate teams, and they're on opposite sides of each other. The way it looks from this image, it almost seems like the guy on your right is playing by himself, and the rest are on the other team. So, again, clearly just posing them for the camera. Yes? 

- Because maybe his camera was not one that would capture candids? 

- No, later on, I'm going to show you some images from Van Schaick, who was a photographer at the same time, up in Black River Falls. And he was able to take those type of images. 

- To me, it seems like he was looking at the aesthetics of taking photographs, staging something, and having that be pleasing to the eye, and more arranged in that manner, rather than the authenticity of the game itself. 

So when you look at the photograph, you know that that's not the correct team, and that's not the way it's played. And those of us who know and play the games, or are there when the games are played, we know that that isn't how they play it. So you just know, just at a glance, that this is staged. This is not real. They've got all the pieces there, but it's not the game. And it looks as though to the left, the man on the left appears to be moving. There's a little bit of movement there. So I don't know if he was doing something, making some type of motion. Normally, when this game is played, then the singers are singing and people are cheering. You've got a cheering section. 

There is none of that going on right now. In fact, when a moccasin game is played, you can hear a lot of screaming, cheering, singing, and lots of really fun expressions. So this is not a game. It's just the pieces. 

- And the thing you have to understand with Bennett, is he was doing this for the public. He was doing it for commercial gains, to sell these photographs. 

- Question on clothing? 

- Are the styles typical, or are they staged? 

- Yeah, those would be typical of the time. So, you know, while Edward Curtis was photographing at the same time, he was trying to take the Indians back, you know, 100 or more years. 

So he was trying to dress them in a more authentic way. But that's the one thing that Bennett did not do. The cover photograph, he was wanting him to wear an Apache war bonnet. And the man would not put that on. And you'll see in some of the later images, where there's kind of like a mixing of the different tribes within the beadwork. But in general this is appropriate. 

- One thing I like about this photograph is the reed mats that are on the --, or the wigwam. I'm just so used to saying the 

(Indian word)

, because that's what we call it in Ho-Chunk. 

But if you'll notice, there's reeds over the top of the wigwam. And you don't see that anymore. So it's just really pleasing to me to see that. That was one thing about this photograph that I really liked a lot, because it's probably the only one I've seen that has such clarity. 

- Those were made out of cattails. So here's an example of Nah-joo-ze-gah. And "Nah-joo" means hair. So they have it as brown eyes. But it is brown hair. This is He-noo-ke-koo. 

This translation is a little off, too. 

- These are Bennett's items? 

- Yes. So, I mean, that's the thing that's interesting. You know, again, compared to Curtis. Curtis would be a little bit more romantic in his titles. And he would never use, generally, the person's name. So the fact that Bennett was doing this, is you know, I guess I give him kudos for that. But towards the end of his life, he was phonetically trying to write out the words. But he really didn't get too far with that, I don't think. 

- We don't know that pronunciation there. That doesn't look correct. 

- Yeah, so I was talking to my mother about this. And it's Ma-beez-e-dahe-gah. There's not the word "bear" in there at all. Bear is Hudj. But "Ma" is the ground. Then I think she said "he-gah" is like to do something. Then, she was saying that "beez-e-da" must be like the digging or the hole. But she also thinks that it maybe just an older form of Ho-Chunk that's not used anymore. 

So here's one where, this is Chak-cheb-nee-neuk-ah. So here, Bennett started at this time, bringing in a lot of souvenirs from throughout the United States, from other tribes. And it was during this period in the next picture where I was talking about the Apache war bonnet. You can see on his lap there. That's a Navajo rug. And so, you know, he was totally playing up to people who would buy this photograph. And he actually copyrighted this photograph, because he felt so good about it. 

- The painted face. 

- Yeah, I don't know about painted face. The thing that I found really fascinating though about Bennett, is the fact that all of his work was about the river. 

But you'll never see a Ho-Chunk on the river in any of his photographs. And I really think that he was trying to remove them, in the beginning, to make this place as a destination for the tourists. And to kind of say that it's safe. Because in many of his other photographs, he does have tourists, or white people, you know, along the shores of the river. But instead, like in this picture, you have this facsimile of the rock formations in the backdrop. But he doesn't, you know, take the Ho-Chunks out into that landscape. And again, you can see in the background there, where he's laid that Navajo rug on the railing. This is Big Bear. This is the one that I'm guessing that's the same one from earlier, in 1880s. They don't have the date for this. 

This is him again. This is probably the closest that he gets to the river. The river is probably behind him. Do you want to talk about this one? 

- In this one, he tried to stage different-- Well, this is just one of the examples. I can't remember the name of the rock area that this is from. 

- Chapel Gorge. 

- Oh, Chapel Gorge. So, as you're looking in, down into the gorge, you see the tent and the canoe. There's a man sitting there. 

And supposedly, he's trying to suggest that it's a Ho-Chunk person. But he admits that it is not in the description. So I was trying to figure out how you would know that. And as I was looking, I could see the haircut. The haircut looks very much Midwestern rural, during that time period. And most of the hairstyles that we had were either straight back, or tied back, or down. So that was another clue to me. And then, just the way that he is sitting there. Normally, when people are sitting outdoors or have a blanket over them, there's either a mat, rug, or some kind of pillow or blanket that they're sitting on. It looks like he just sat straight flat onto the ground and threw that over so it could be posed as though he was a Ho-Chunk person. 

Anything else you wanted to add? 

- Is that a Ho-Chunk tent? 

- It's in the style. 

- It's in the style, but the way the posts are coming in is too, what would you say? It doesn't look real, and there's no smoke hole at the top. It looks like they just took some things and just almost like the pup tents. 

- Can you tell which direction the door is facing? 

- Which direction the door is. From where the gorge is, so that you would know? 

- Do you feel he was trying to remove the native peoples from the pictures, to make it appear as it's safer for white folks to go there? 

- Mm-hmm. 

- What's his motivation for this, then? Because this is in the environment. 

- This is now later, though. And the tourists are wanting to actually see. And so, since he's not able to get the Ho-Chunks to do it for him, he's now creating his own. And he's next to... 

- Sorry, a follow-up. Earlier, you said the one man didn't want to do the Apache headdress. 

- Mm-hmm. 

- But yet, the folks that are posing are allowing these other tribes' artifacts to be in the pictures. I'm not sure what the question is. They weren't coerced to do the pictures? 

- No. 

- Is there any history or anything about these other artifacts being there? 

- You have to understand, again during this time or earlier on, it was during the removal act. So these people were placed in these certain areas, were not able to, I guess, roam around freely. And they were trying to survive. So what would happen a lot of times... No, not intimidated. 

They just didn't have a source of money. So a lot of times, these photographers would pay them to sit for them. And so, that was one way that they kind of accepted that. Also during that time, Steven says in his book, 25 years had passed since the people first got their homesteads. And at that point, they had to start paying taxes on their land. And they did not know it. So a lot of Ho-Chunks lost their land to land companies, actually, during this time. So it was a very hard time. Here's another one where he's, you know, faking it. What he actually did was, he painted the interior of this area here. 

That silhouette in the background is actually a cut-out. So he was just kind of like then creating his own native pictures. So here's another one with a canoe. But instead, he has three white gentlemen posing for him. He actually placed this with, and said that they were Indian, in his other Ho-Chunk photographs. 

- These images ran as advertisements? 

- He would have it in his own advertisements, books, and stationery. It was a big network of who he was selling to throughout the country. So that would be in his own, I guess, advertisement. 

- The book goes into that type of thing? 

- Yeah. So we're getting towards the end of Bennett's photographs here, but I wanted to show you, what happened is he started not making any money through photography anymore, because this was during a time when the amateur cameras were coming out, like through Kodak and things like that. So people were starting to come, and they were able to do their own photographs. So he started buying more and more Native American objects and souvenirs from throughout the United States. He would get them from out east, from Pueblos in the southwest, out in the Plains. And so, this is really where this, you know, and also the wild west shows were happening at this time, you have to understand. So there's a real mix of all these tribes starting to come together. And that's really where, I think, the war bonnet starts coming into all tribes, because it's kind of like they're actually playing Indian for the tourists again. This is the interior of his studio where you can see he had all types of Native American objects. I'll let you go into Stand Rock. 

- This is a picture from Stand Rock Indian Ceremonial from the 1950s. Could I get a show of hands, how many of you have been there, to Stand Rock? How many of you have been there to the Indian ceremonial dances? Oh, good, quite a few. So some of you might have been there the night that this photo was taken. There's a lot of people in there that are related to both Tom and to me. And so, it's really nice to see the photographs. The singers that are in there, we have relatives that are in that section. The dancers, men and women. And where you can see in the background, the teepees, that's where the dancers used to come in. 

And the fact that he has photographs with Big Bear, I'm not sure if it's the same Big Bear. And I want to investigate this further. But at the beginning of each of the opening ceremonial dances, there would be a young man would come and light the fires, light a council fire on each side of the dance arena. So there would be fires burning when it first started. Then, the singers would sing what they called at that time for the show, the Welcome Song. And the song that is actually sung for the Welcome Song during the ceremonial is Big Bear's Song. So the photo that's taken there, the earlier shots of Big Bear, I'm not sure, but that could be the same Big Bear, because we still have a Big Bear Song. And I don't know if it's from that same Big Bear. So I'm going to check with some elders and try to find out. But I think that's really exciting to know that. 

When people talk about songs being carried on, passed on, and continued to be used, that's one of the songs that I think is really still heavily used today. And if I had known, and if we had planned ahead, we would've played that for you so you could hear it. But it's really exciting to see the history, and know that this is where the Ho-Chunk people, our ancestral homelands, people roamed this area, and then eventually it got staged in, what year was that, I can't remember what year, the early 1900s it was started. I'll have to look it up in the index in a few minutes. But this is just one of the photos from that time period. 

- Is this real, then, or is it created by Bennett and photographers? 

- It wasn't created by Bennett. He just took a photo of the ceremonial. Several people worked together, and Bennett was a part of it. I think the Hellend family and the Crandall family were more involved from Wisconsin Dells. 

Do you remember? 

- I think they are his granddaughters. I think the Crandalls. So their family was also involved in the Stand Rock. This was taken in the '50s. 

- And the only other name that I remember on the Ho-Chunk side, the family that was involved was Russell Decorah, oh, and Winslow White Eagle. Those were the two Ho-Chunk men who were instrumental in getting that Stand Rock Indian Ceremonial started. But they needed the support of the Dells Boat Company and the Hellend and the Crandall family so the boats would come down and bring the tourists to Stand Rock. 

- How much of the event is actual Ho-Chunk tradition, from a spiritual purpose, and how much of it is a media event for the tourists? 

- Some of it is, well, they are authentic dances and they are the actual real songs that go with each of those dances that they performed during that evening. 

But it's a program. It's not something that is indicative of what they would've been doing of that time at a cultural event. I mean, some of the dances, they would normally be done. But they had to only give the audience snippets of a real full detailed dance. Because it goes all weekend. It starts Thursday or Friday, and goes till Sunday night, or 2:00am on Monday morning. That's how the events go. But for the evening performance, it always went from 8:45pm till 10:00pm. 

- So all the dancer participants are basically employees. 

- Yeah. 

- Yeah, so the dancers were paid. They also imported other dancers just the way that Bennett had imported the rugs from New Mexico and Arizona, they also brought other tribes to dance and perform there and share. 

- Kind of bringing Native people from all over. 

- And it was more elegantly done. It wasn't anything that was, I don't know, overdone or audacious. Some of the dances might have been considered that way, but I saw them as very tasteful, very elegant. And all the dancers had pride in what they were doing and what they were sharing, because it was something from their family and their relatives. 

- Was it really an amalgamation of a bunch of different tribes, or were they authentic dances from neighboring places? 

- They were bringing in tribes from other places, and they always announced it, and now we have the Sunrise Call of the Zuni, or they would say, now we have the-- something from the Southwest, I can't remember which. There was the Eagle Dance that was from the Southwest. 

And they always named which tribe they were coming from. So it was a program that involved other tribes. And they always acknowledged that in the introductions. 

- The headdresses would not have been Ho-Chunk in this picture? 

- Right, not in the picture. 

- I think that that came from, again this is my own belief, that it's from the wild west shows. That was mainly Plains headdresses, the big war bonnets. You know, the guys that are kind of standing off at the end there, that's more how a Ho-Chunk would be. 

- And the women in the, I can't really tell you which section it is, the ones that are wearing the darker clothing, some of them are wearing more of the traditional style dancing clothing. And the other thing that I know sort of lines up the same way with Bennett, the people that were doing the performances and dancing and directing the events, also wanted buckskin worn. 

So those were worn by a lot of the women. But then they would always trade off and have some of the traditional cloth outfits worn during the performances also. So that comes from the Buffalo Bill Wild West Show thing, too. Also, the headbands. I remember mentioning it to one audience that it seemed like once the movies started coming out and you saw Donna Reed, and Sacagawea, and Pocahontas with the headband around, then that was the stereotype image of what the Indian woman wore. So in our culture, we didn't wear headbands, but you'll notice that all the women in this are wearing headbands. So a part of it is sort of add-on from what Buffalo Bill Wild West Show and the movies started to suggest, that well, they're not Indian women if they're not wearing a headband, Pocahontas had one on, why don't they? You know, that kind of thing. So then the directors who were non-Indian are making the women wear the headband. 

- I have a couple of things for comment. 

My father is full Navajo, so I'm used to the inter-tribal ceremonials. I don't know much about Stand Rock. This is my first year in Wisconsin, meeting the Ho-Chunk and other tribes. But I guess it sounds similar to kind of the inter-tribal ceremonials, where there are these dances that are even sacred in certain contexts, but where for the inter-tribal ceremonies, it's really very tourist oriented and open. 

- Mm-hmm. 

- And not so much, I didn't get -- from the sacredness, and that aspect, where they try to respect that too, but the openness kind of takes that. Another quick comment is that about how you said, you know, what they see in the media influencing how they want to reflect it, with headbands or something. My father loves John Wayne. And my cousins, aunts and uncles love Indian and cowboy movies. And I think it's just interesting how, you know, that does kind of impact our way of life, and how we view ourselves as American Indians. 

- Mm-hmm. 

- You had a question? 

- Do you know why the ceremonial--? I understand it's not performed anymore. 

- No, it's not. 

- Do you know why that is? I didn't know. 

- Do you know? 

- It was, I think, business. People who were running it were not running it properly. 

And they lost money, so it just stopped. But you have to understand, this also came during a time when the casinos opened. So people were then able to, were getting money. So this was a big, the ceremonial was a lot of Ho-Chunks from around the state would come here during the summer and dance, you know, to get money. And even Truman Lowe, who's in the Art Department, he said that's how he got through college, was during the summers, he would go there and dance, make his money, then go back to school. So the casinos really changed a lot, you know, for us. The thing that's important, it's the same way the Ho-Chunks brought, you know, Bennett's photographs, the ones along the river, brought in tourists. They were used in railroad stations to promote tourism. But it was the Ho-Chunks that brought them there also. And the same thing is happening now with the casinos. 

And you can see how the Dells has changed. It used to be just the summer that tourists would come. But now it's a year-round thing, since the casinos opened up. So it's really changed kind of like the landscape, even the communities themselves. You can see there's WalMarts, and you know, what is it, the lumber place. 

- Home Depot. 

- Yes, you know, all those places, Kohl's. All those places are now in the Dells. It used to be that the population of the Dells was, I don't know, a few thousand. So, it's interesting to see how it's still happening. 

- I think the interesting thing, just when Tom mentioned college students dancing there during the summer, I think if you look back, the people who got an education and then came back, didn't come back to dance there. Each of the people who got an education went out and got their new careers going. And so, coming back to dance there was not, once you graduate from college, to come back there and dance again. It just sort of opened up the door for economic enterprise and having people aware of what was going on nationwide and around the world. So tourists that came there were from other countries, also. I remember being there and having people coming in from Germany and the European countries when I was there. So I met a lot of people who were speaking their language from Europe, from those countries. So it was a very exciting place at the time, during the time period that this was happening. And Bennett was bringing in a lot of people from everywhere around the country and around the world, just by photographs and all the advertisement that happened, and all the traveling that happened. I think the other thing that was exciting about it was the railroad. 

The way the advertisements came through, the place you could advertise was the railroad train stations. So they saw this exciting, exotic looking background, people and the river. So it was an inviting place. And it was a really short trip from Milwaukee and Chicago. Before you knew it, they were there. And a lot of the Chicago people did end up creating businesses in the Dells and still are there. 

- Mm-hmm. Did you want to talk about this? 

- I guess I'll talk about this one, because this is Suzy Red Horn. She's the woman seated. 

And in Bennett's book, he talks about the artisans and the craftspeople that came to him and traded with him. And she was his most trusted and favorite artist. And so, this is a picture of her. It says, Suzy Red Horn Selling Beads, 1941. And this is at the Dells Park. And in his book, Bennett talks about her, and it shows the setting, the background. You see the trees. And that's the Dells Park. And the interesting thing, Tom's going to show you another photograph later on, but the place where Suzy Red Horn's wigwam is positioned, in the 1960s, I lived right next door. So where the man with the glasses is standing, that would've been where my wigwam was. 

So it was very interesting just to see this photograph and recognize the trees, recognize the setting, and know that it's the Dells Park, and that's Suzy Red Horn's wigwam. And then there's another woman he's going to show you later named Flora Bear Heart. And that's where she lived when I was young, and we lived next door to her. 

- I'm not going to go into Charles Van Schaick. And Steven Hoelscher is comparing the two. Again, as I said before, Bennett was creating all of his photographs for commercial purposes. And so they were very public. All of Van Schaick's images were private photographs. The families were coming in, having the photographs taken for themselves and for their family members. I'm going to go through a couple of these. 

The portraits. Flora Bear Heart is on the left, when she was younger. These were done-- 1885-1935. So as you can see, he has the same backdrop that he'll have for anybody else. People were just going in there to get their photographs taken. 

- Do you know who that is? 

- No. 

- The previous one? 

- Yes? 

- Was that a Ho-Chunk man? 

- Yeah. We don't have the names for these yet. We're going to be getting them. Eventually, what's happening, is I'm working with Andy Krushauer from the State Historical Society. And there'll be a book coming out on these photographs in the future. We just found out, there was a woman in the '40s and '50s, I think it was Frances Perry. She had actually gone around to the community and taken all the photographs and did slide shows, and got the names of every single person. And I don't have those yet, so I wasn't able to put them on here. So it was just her own labor of love that she did this. And it's actually going to save us. 

- I think that previous one was Belle Hall, but I'm not sure. I don't know who the man would be. If anybody knows who Belle Hall was. 

- And I actually think the woman on the right is my grandmother, but I don't for sure. 

- This looks like Alec Landry. 

- Yeah, it is. 

- Oh, okay. 

- And so I think that's Emma Lowe. She was Emma Funmaker. 

- Beautiful. 

- So, you know, what he was doing also, he was going out into the community. He was going out into the streets and photographing the Ho-Chunk everywhere. I don't know how to day that. It's supposed to be "Ma-Kah..." 

- It looks like Ma Ko Oro Wena. 

- But it means medicine in Ho-Chunk. 

- So that'd be the drug store. 

- Yeah. So, what was interesting up there, is a lot of those people spoke Ho-Chunk, the whites that lived there. 

- The merchants? 

- Yeah, the merchants. My mother also told me stories, this was in the '50s when she went to boarding school. They weren't allowed to speak Ho-Chunk, but yet the people who were, I don't know if they were Norwegian or what they were, but the whites that were running the boarding school, actually were fluent Ho-Chunk speakers. So they never understood why they couldn't speak Ho-Chunk, but then here those people would sit around and speak Ho-Chunk to each other. 

(laughter)

 So here's another example of Van Schaick, where he is, you know, going out and documenting it, you know, kind of like in real time, just what they're doing. He's not making them pose for the camera. 

- Mmmm, I'm hungry. 

(laughter)

- So there, they're cooking fry bread. And I don't know what's in that other pot. 

- Probably some soup. 

- So here is where the Ho-Chunks are picking cranberries. And they were Wisconsin's first migrant workers. My mother actually also did this when she was young. They'd also go pick cherries in Door County. So this is one thing, too, Van Schaick was I think so, he must have been, I don't know, close to the Ho-Chunk, because here's an image where they're, I think it may be the Buffalo Dance, but I don't know. So this would be one of the feast lodges. Here's one of the Winneshieks. 

That flag that's up there is a British flag. And this is done, I think in the spring. This is a pow wow. 

- This is? 

- This one, I would guess around, well, the pow wows started in what, 1902? 

- I don't know when it started. 

- So probably around that time. I think just from the clothing, it seems. 

- Yeah, this is how the pow wow grounds looked when I was young, when I was about six or seven years old. The whole pow wow arena was covered with pine branches that you see on top. 

And the term that we always used when I was growing up, we'd always say let's go down to the 

(ha-zuch)

, and that's what that is. That's the arbor, and it's called 

(ha-zuch)

 in our language. And the tree that's there, that tallest tree, is still there today. And right now, where they are located, it's just all wooded now. And the pow wow grounds have moved to the right of where everyone is right now in that photo. And the baseball field is positioned right over here, where Tom and I are sitting. 

That's where the softball field is now, and the parking area. And it's no longer a softball field. They've turned it into a parking area, so that whenever we have pow wows, people park there and now some of our dancers camp back there in the old arena area. And so that was my favorite spot, right where that big tree is. Usually, just to the right, whenever we came to the pow wow, that's where we sat. It's almost like every time we came, you had your own spot. And no one challenged us, we always got it every time we got there. No one said, hey, that's our spot. 

- What do you mean, the pow wow started in 1902? 

- That's when the pow wows started. 

- Inter-tribal dancing and celebrations. They used to have many days of doing that. In fact, there were lots of games, lots of races. And some of the young women of the tribe, and young men, there used to be a lot of foot races. And they would have lots of dances and lots of challenges. Once they won, they'd receive gifts. And it was not always monetary. They would get goods and gifts. And whenever they won those gifts, they didn't keep them. It's much like whenever they won a race, you don't get the honor of keeping like a trophy, when you receive a gift and you win, then you give it to one of your men relatives. 

And when it's time to get out there in the arena, the pow wow, then they dance and they dance with a gift. Those were the kinds of things that were happening back then, when he was taking those photos at the pow wow. 

- They did not exist before 1902? 

- Not here. 

- Not in Black River Falls, no. 

- Pow wow is a very non-Indian movement, it's part of like the headdress. It wasn't really like one tribe always did it. It just kind of spread, I think. 

- So here are some images of small pox, that he took of these children. You know, again, they had to really, I think trust him to let him do this. 

- And I've often read about that in the history books, but I've never really seen any evidence of it. So this is the first time that I am seeing these photographs. But if you read in the history books, the Indian people were wiped out, because they were given blankets that were infested with small pox. So these are Ho-Chunk relatives. 

- Mm-hmm. Okay, now you get to see my work. So this one, I started this series when I was in grad school. And I started going around photographing the elders of the tribe. And generally, I did kind of straight portraits. But I was setting up my view camera and my grandfather just laid down on the couch and was waiting for me to do it. 

And I was just like, this is a great image. I was like, okay, Choka, I'm ready to take your picture, and he started to sit up. I was, no, actually, just lay down there. This is called Choka Watching Oprah. He's also of the Bear Clan. So those are things that I try to bring into my photographs, also, is what clan that person is, if it's within their home. The thing that's on the wall is just one of those acrylic blankets. He liked it and he wanted it on the wall, so he had somebody put it up there. Then, you know, family members' photographs are up there. 

- Can I just read what Steven said about that in the epilogue? 

Let's see, okay. I can't find the first part of the sentence. "Choka, the word for grandfather in the Ho-Chunk language, is Jones' own grandfather, Jim Funmaker, and is pictured reclining in the comfort of his own home. As he lifts his sunglasses to watch the television at the end of the room, Choka sees a trans-cultural elder of American popular culture, Oprah Winfrey." 

(laughter)

- So this is my grandfather's neighbor. And I had taken a picture of her outside at his house. And I was bringing the photograph back. I give a photograph to every person I photograph. 

And so, we went in her home, and I saw this on the entertainment center, of all those pictures. That's something that's a recurring thing in my photographs, is photographing the photograph. And to me, those photographs just give a sense of community and family, and that closeness. So, again you can see she's got this plaster deer on top of her television. She's from the Deer clan. So you know, I was fascinated finding that, people would have t-shirts with animals on them, representing their clans, or earrings. This one, you know, it was interesting that he put this in the book. But I think it was more so for the way that I spoke about it. Because people, I think this is up at the headquarters of the tribe. And a person was talking to me about it. 

And she was like, oh, you can tell that he's their da-gah. And da-gah is uncle. That relationship between the uncle and his nieces and nephews, is he is the one who disciplines them. So if the parents are not either good parents, or they can't get the children to behave, they'll say, "I'm going to get your da-gah." And you'll just see fear in their eyes. Or they may just start crying automatically. 

(laughter)

- Or they behave right away. 

- Yeah. 

(laughter)

 There is one time where, at a pow wow, and this guy said, "Yeah, I got after him, and I sat him down in that chair." And here he's sitting there for like two or three hours. And he said, "What are you doing sitting there?" And he says, "You told me to sit here." 

(laughter)

 But it's this relationship that you can see. It's like, he's joking around, and the girl looking at him is just real serious. So it's a really interesting interaction that's happening there. But it's just Ho-Chunk. 

This is one of my uncles. He sets up his own digital studio at the pow wows, and puts these on t-shirts, or prints out the photographs for them. The blanket in the background is his backdrop. This is Elliot Littlejohn on the left. And the picture is, again, the relationship is his father, but it's actually his uncle. 

- It is his father. 

- It is his father? Okay. So these are memorial flag poles during the Memorial Day Pow Wow. And they bring their flags of the deceased. 

And then they also put their photographs on the flag poles. 

- The photograph is on the cover. 

- So this one, I was astonished by. I was like-- 

(laughs)

 You don't think that, you know, the way that so many Native Americans are fighting against these stereotypes, you know, the fact that this kid has this. But his father also said, well, he also has Scooby Doo and you know, all these other ones, so they're like interchangeable. He was like 2-1/2 years old. But that's the thing that's really interesting. The same with that wall hanging. 

There's not a lot out there that represents us. So when there is something, you kind of just grab onto it. It's like my niece had Disney Pocahontas on her sheets in her bedroom. And I have a photograph of that. It's not in here. But it's like, even though there's this weird kind of schism between the two things, it's just kind of like, there is an image of you. And the thing you have to understand, too, is all these different photographs that he's using come from a lot of different bodies of work that I've done. And so, it's only representing probably one from each of the different series that I've done. I'll just read this to you. My mother, along with other Native American children, were taken from their homes and their people and sent to boarding school by the United States government. 

The government's objective in assimilating Native American children into white culture was to civilize, educate and convert them to Christianity. My mother has told me stories of her experience about being punished for speaking her own original language. And the memory of her sister running into the woods to hide near the creek when the social worker came around. So they were sent off a lot of times for the whole school year to these boarding schools, and sometimes during the summer, too. So they didn't see their families. This is one that both my grandfather and mother went to as children. This work is going to get into the Dells. So this is kind of, you know, what has happened now, after I guess, Bennett brought to the Dells. Here, I'm just making a pun on, you know, how generally we do not want people photographing at our ceremonies. But yet, here this is a place where you can go in and get your photograph taken and dress up as Indian, or dress up as whatever you want. 

I'm just going to kind of go through these quick, so we can get to more questions. This is called Soda Totem. 

(laughter)

 This is H.H. Bennett's Legacy. Cement TeePee in Snow. Actually, I remember my grandfather. He used to dress up and he would go out onto the main street of the Dells and sell his postcards of his images to people, and get his picture taken with tourists. Moccasin Shop. Coca-Cola Plan. The End of the Trail. 

And Cowboy Down. 

(laughter)

 That is it. That thing is actually about 30 or 40 feet tall. It was laying behind a gas station. And I said this is perfect, I have to get it. 

(laughs)

 So, we'll open it up to more questions. Is there anything else you want to say first, Janice? 

- No, I have something I can add later, but let's get the questions. 

- Okay. 

- What do you know about Van Schaick? Because his photos were so different from the others. What do you know about him, and what was his intent? 

- He was just purely a portrait studio. So the Ho-Chunks were just coming in there and getting their portraits done. He was not, as my understanding, selling those photographs the way that Bennett was selling them. 

- Yet he was able to go out, and go into their homes. 

- Right. 

- Do you know anything about that? 

- I'm just starting to research him now, so I don't know a lot about him. I don't know if Andy can say anything to that. But yeah, they're pretty amazing. And he was really prolific in the amount of negatives that he had. I think there are 1200 negatives that he did of just Ho-Chunk. And the Historical Society has about 800 or 900 of them. 

- I like that photograph of downtown Black River Falls where everyone's standing in front of the drug store. And as Tom mentioned, a lot of the merchants spoke Ho-Chunk. If I'm correct on where that store is located, if you went another block or two, going up the hill toward the library and the courthouse, the hospital used to be right there. And a lot the doctors that were there at that time went out and did home visits. 

They came out and delivered babies out in the homes of the Ho-Chunk families. And in fact, my older sister was delivered out in the home, in Milston. And the doctor came from Black River Falls. So there really were different relationships in Black River Falls between the Ho-Chunk people and the community, if you compare it with Wisconsin Dells, which is more of a tourist area. So I can even remember the late 1950s, that my mother would still take us up to Black River Falls, even though Tomah Hospital was real close by, and all the clinics were there. She would still get us, load us up when we were sick, drive us all the way up to Black River Falls, and we would see a doctor there. So that's how close the relationships were. They knew the families well enough. They could speak Ho-Chunk, or use some words here and there, so that you felt like it was family. 

- Yeah, and Steven brings it up in the book about how Bennett, you know, is purchasing beadwork and things from the Ho-Chunk. 

And it doesn't seem like he had a really good relationship in that way. He was more interested in buying the things very cheap. They were taking it to other businesses and getting better prices. So, the same thing actually happens in the Dells now, where certain people won't go to certain businesses and sell their things because of the way that they've been treated. So that's where I kind of wonder where, maybe that's the reason why he wasn't able to get a lot of photographs, also. 

- Can you talk about the summer camp, or fishing camp along the south Beltline, where Broadway is now? 

- I don't know that much about it. I just know from reading a little bit about it at the Historical Society, just that it was there. I do know... 

- That's the White Horse family. 

- The old newspaper clippings from the State Journal and Milwaukee papers, I think, had some articles from the people that were there. If you go to the Historical Society to the archives, you'll see that Frostwoods area was a heavily populated area, going from Frostwoods all the way down to the White Horses' family, where they're located. And so, there were a lot of other families there also, during the early 1900s. And so, it's an area that I'd like to explore further. And there's probably opportunities to do that, just with so many good materials in the archives, and the fact that some of the historians of the time, when Wisconsin first became a state, did so much to preserve a lot of the documents, and keep the history recorded. So I think that's very valuable. In fact, I love to go to the archives. And it's really exciting for me. I just get goosebumps when I open up an archival box and some of the material that's in there is something that is from that time period. So there are some good materials out there, if you want to track that down and find more out about those villages. 

In fact, I think Harry White Horse's wife, Debbie, knows a lot. She's collected a lot of information about that time period and the families that were there. I think the White Wings were there. So there are some newspaper articles about the White Wing family being in that neighborhood. 

- Yeah, the tribe, they purchased land over there and gave it to the city. It's called Ahuska. 

- Ahuska Park. 

- Yeah, Ahuska Park, which is on that, right near there, also. 

- That was until the 1950s, wasn't it, in terms of activities? 

- I think there were. 

In fact, they used to have teepees. Harry White Horse has a lot of photographs, his own, not photographs, paintings that he did of his family and what it looked like during that time. It kind of reminds me of the epilogue, if you look at the photographs in this book, where Cloris Lowe, Sr., draws cartoon sketches of what it was like with the Indian beadwork basket stand. That's the same kind of drawings that Harry White Horse has done of what it was like right in that region, near the Yahara, where it pours in by Mud Lake. So it's really interesting. There's a lot of history out there. And I invite a lot of you young historians out there to keep it up and get the stories out there. There was another question? 

- I understand those villages were quite large around the lakes. 

And I would love to see a couple teepees erected in Tenney Park, on the original village site, or something. Would those teepees of that time have still looked something like the ones in your images? 

- Yeah, they were round. They weren't teepees. 

- You were calling them teepees, weren't you? 

- Wigwams. We call them --, which means round house. 

- That would've been what it would've been. 

- Mm-hmm. 

- And if we go back to the same kind of thing that we talked about with Wisconsin Dells, they started the war bonnet and the teepee. 

The White Horse family did the same thing, too. They just put the teepees up. That was what the tourists wanted to see. And it brought people there. And in fact, I remember our grandmother, Annie White Horse, telling us that people used to come from miles around, from campus, to go and get their fortune told. She would come in and you know, they would bring something and they would read their palm, and all that kind of stuff. And they would just be really excited to see her. So those are the kinds of things that were a result of some of the Buffalo Bill Wild West Show and all things, the gypsy life, and all the kinds of things that were happening during that time, that people capitalized on in order to get and attract people over, and get that extra little change or that tip, or that photograph that was taken. In fact, when I was living in the Dells in the 1950s, late 1950s and early '60s, the tourists would come and that would be the way that I would get money, because they would take a picture and they would give us some money. That was how I made money, just by, all I did was put my dress on and walk out there. 

Next thing you know, they want my picture, then I have money in my pocket. And I could buy an ice cream bar. 
(laughs)

(inaudible)

- I guess I'm not sure about the question. 

- Throughout this presentation, you've said you think this was this way or that way. Is that because the history was passed along orally? 

- Yeah, all the history is passed along orally. 

- It's not written? 

- See, that's the other thing, and it's pretty amazing that this book is done. In general, Ho-Chunks do not talk to people. And they're very leery. They keep all the traditional things private. And so, in general, they won't talk about those things. I know when another book was done, the majority that he got were from people who went over to the Native American Church, or the Peyote religion. And even at that, they changed their name at that time, so people wouldn't know who they were. But that's the problem with a lot of these books, is those people weren't there or in it long enough in the traditional way, that they weren't telling things correctly. 

- Some of the history ends up, we have to track it down by going to the records of the US Army, like Sparta, and look at some of the records there, or some of the notes of the officers when they wrote and they said what they saw. 

They start to describe what the village looked like, what they did that day, the gifts, annuities they talked about, how they handed them out, how each clan leader came forward. And I wouldn't have known any of that, had the officers not written that up. I wouldn't have known that that's how my great-great-grandfather, when he was the head of the clan, came forward and he was there for the whole family. So they recorded it, listed all the names, and this is what he received. And then it even described in a couple of the descriptions that I read on microfilm from Nebraska, that when they received them, the clan leaders came forward, and then when they got the cloth that you see the women wearing in the different outfits, they took the cloth and they just did the reams and rolls of the cloth and they cut them. And the clan leaders, they would just take it and wrap it around his head, like around his shoulders. That was to be for the family. So they did things like that. And it makes me realize why, when we go to some of the events, and we see the ceremonies and the give-aways that happen, how things are draped over people, and that's the way that the fur traders and the Indian agents draped them over the clan leaders when they brought the materials to the people. So those are things like that, that I didn't hear from my grandmother or my mother. 

I learned it by reading what the Army officers wrote, or what a church leader might have written in the records when they got baptized, so and so married so and so, and this is what the English name is. Their Ho-Chunk name is this. So sometimes they wrote that and sometimes they didn't. So it's the literacy that is the key. Wherever anyone was literate, there is a record. So that's why we talk about the oral tradition. And although people were literate and they could write, they don't want to write about some of these things. But the everyday happenings of life, I think, the stories are passed on. We know of them, but none of us have written them down. So there's a difference between what you're talking about, more of that talking or writing about the sacred versus the everyday happenings that would be nice to know how the life was, and some of the things the archaeologists have discovered, too, have been helpful to us, although people don't like the fact that things are being dug up. 

There's a lot to be learned by people who are literate, and people who will write. And that's the scary part, because some people fear, just like there's a fear of the photograph, the fear of the writing and the fear of the literature. So I hope that some day there'll be more of a love for it, a love of the literature, a love of the writing, appreciation, more of a feeling of love, peace, contentment, a little more of that in the life of the people. So I think Tom's part of the generation that will start doing that. And there are many out there who have thoughts about it, have poetry, have written, and just haven't gotten published. So I know there's a lot of people out there with the heart and the spirit to do it. I know that we'll get there soon, with Tom's help. 

- Yes. 

- Were the Ho-Chunk children were forced to go to the boarding schools, or was that the law, they had to go there? 

- Do you want to talk about it? 

- I don't know about the law. It must've been some type of law, because I remember even when I had to go to school, and go to first grade, I remember. I guess I was okay with it, but I wondered why I had to go, when I enjoyed playing and staying at home. And some days, I didn't want to go. My mother would say, it's the law. And so, I don't know if necessarily the boarding schools were. I think part of it was them trying to get the Indian assimilated. And I think Steven mentions it in his book, and touches on it briefly during the removals. Is there a section that you remember where he touched on that a little bit? 

- Mm-hmm. 

- I know that they went to the boarding schools. Some of them were taken away from their families. I can't remember exactly how that happened. And in some of the removals, from the map that we showed you, there were even some agreements with some of the different churches to build some schools. So they tried to build one near Portage for the Ho-Chunk people, which never happened. Then they also were working toward building one somewhere in Minnesota, and that never happened. So there was always this promise of getting a school for the Ho-Chunk children. That never happened. And so, in some ways, it was a blessing to us, because we were able to preserve a lot of our language. And the other tribes that were here in the state, some of them had lost it prior to the Ho-Chunk people. 

And I would go to some of the communities and they didn't know their language at all. And I was kind of surprised. And back when I first wandered about at age six or seven, most of the people that I saw were fluent. I would go out west to different pow wows and gatherings, and a lot of the people were fluent in their language. Maybe the children my age were not, but anybody older than me was fluent in whatever language they had. So when I started to mix a little bit more and reach out in Wisconsin, I was surprised that the other tribes didn't know their languages. But part of it was the removal and getting them sent off to boarding schools and mission schools, and then trying to remove the language from the people. We were very elusive. So I'm really proud of the fact that people tried to come home and escape and go back, because they were still able to preserve the language and the culture. So even in the late 1940s and 1950s, the language was still spoken. 

So I heard the language spoken on a daily basis when I was growing up. So I just listened and I understood what was going on. So I didn't dismiss it and say I want to go and play. Somehow, it tuned in to my ear and it stayed with me. I'm not a fluent speaker, but I understand the language. I think that was one of the gifts that the Ho-Chunk people had, of being resilient, wanting to come back and continuing to come back, and still being able to hide out in pines, the --, that's where we live, in the woodlands and the pines. I think that saved us, and saved as much of the language as we do have now. I'm glad that we were able to do that. 

- And what happened, also, when they were putting everyone on reservations, they were just there. With the Ho-Chunk that came back, they were living in different villages, much the way that they did before. 

And we would then come together for special occasions. So we weren't stuck in just one central area of the state. So I think that that really helped out a lot, too, with kind of remaining the way that we were before. 

- If I think about the Wisconsin River as sort of a marker, it seems to me like anything south of the Dells, even though our territory was south of there, has ended up being very populated. That was almost like the line of demarcation, like you're not allowed down here, so don't come back. And without it being said in words, just by acceptance. Or, here the line is drawn, you don't belong here. I even got some of those kinds of feelings when I was in the Dells, when I crossed the river. In fact, sometimes we were told, what are you doing here, you belong on the other side. So those are the kinds of things that the merchants and some of the people that worked on the Dells Boat Company would say to us children. 

But at that point, it hurt and I felt sad, so I just went back. But now, I understand, after seeing what has happened in history, why we were treated that way, and how it happened, and how it's ended up that Black River Falls is more the center of the culture than the Dells area, or Madison, or Milwaukee. This was all our territory. And if you go back and take a look at where we are from, a lot of my relatives are from here. From in fact, what the gentleman earlier mentioned, the Mud Lake area. That's where some of the Bear Clan people were from. Then, I also have relatives that if you go down toward Lake Koshkonong, the villages are there. All those areas. So there's just so much history that's out there. And Bennett only just got a little, just people excited about it a little bit. 

And there was so much more out there. So it's really an exciting book. I hope that you'll take a look at it, if you haven't read it already. It gets you kind of interested in the area. There's more to be done. There's more to be said. More to be read. So, I love it. 

- Are there equivalents to Bennett in different parts of the United States that used photography in this fashion that you're aware of? 

- Do you want to talk? 

- There's lots. 

- There's quite a few. 

- I'm thinking more in particular tourist areas. 

- You know, you had many people going down to the southwest. The Hopi now have completely banned any type of photography down there. But that was happening and creating tourism for that area. There were a large -- Curtis was the biggest one of them all, with trying to get that type of work out. During that period, you know, the whites were really romanticizing the Native American and how they used to live. And so, that's another series that I'm working on now, is you know, people who were dressing up as Indians. And that has been happening since the 1800s, up until even today. 

So right now, I'm blanking on names, but there's plenty of people out there. There are even Natives who were doing side show type things and traveling with Vaudeville acts, and you know, playing up being Indian. 

- I think one of the photographs that I saw that was really interesting was the one recently at the Historical Society, photographs from the World's Fair. They took Ho-Chunk people from the Black River Falls area and took them down to Chicago for the World's Fair. And I didn't recognize anybody in those photographs. Then I did see that Sam Blowsnake was in there. So I know that there's probably other people who can identify their relatives that are in those photographs, but that was also the start of it, when the Chicago World's Fair happened, then it sort of exploded from there, just like any other World's Fair, or US Olympics, things happen and there's just all kinds of follow-up that happens after that. Sort of like, I don't know what the word is, but not the fall-out, but the other things that happen once a major event like that happens. 

- Charles Van Schaick have photos of the World's Fair with Ho-Chunk and Native American people in them. I remember reading about that. 

- That's a part of the Van Schaick collection? 

- I don't think so. 

- It might have been a part of Bennett's collection, because I was looking at Bennett's collection a couple of weeks ago. I think it might be in his photographs. So it's very interesting. You'll have to take a look, because they were great photographers. There's just so much clarity and beauty in their photographs.
(applause)