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Museum, on behalf of >> For the Wisconsin Veteran's
director and all our staff and Dr. Zeitland, our executive
tonight's very special program volunteers, I welcome you to
My name is Jeff, I'm the curator on the life of Melvin Laird.
at the museum. of programs and exhibitions here
event. We are very excited for this
Before we get started with the We thank you all for coming out.
John Scocos, the Secretary of sythe Wisconsin Department ofuce
Veteran's Affairs.
Thank you and good evening. It's truly a pleasure to be here
tonight.
Dr. Zeitland, who's not here I really want to thank
He's recovering from surgery. I thank Jeff and all the museum
staff of the Department of
Chancellor John Wiley, a special Veterans Affairs Museum.
our returning veterans now from nothe 21st century, the War onse
Terrorism, are being educated now by our University Systems,
with the help of the University,
And I think Secretary Laird thewould be proud right now.nor.
Our state is taking the lead in taking care of these veterans,
especially educating them when
So I thank you, Chancellor, for being here.
Mr. Reid Hall,
President George Herring, Mr. Professor Jeremi Suri,hor,
who's been a tremendous partner with our department in doing
what's right, we believe, in
veterans. Our co-sponsors, the University
of Wisconsin Press, the University of Wisconsin
Department of History, the
Communications, the Center for School of Journalism Mass
Economy, the Marshfield Clinic, and the Laird Center for Medical
Research. *The Wisconsin Department of
Veterans Affairs and the
honored to host this esteemed panel of experts, and present a
discussion on the life and
and Secretary of Defense career of Wisconsin Congressman
Secretary Laird has been a Melvin Laird.
Department of Veterans Affairs. When the Veterans Museum moved
to its current location in 1993,
first to endorse and support the Secretary Laird was one of the
As a decorated World War II Navy project.
succeeded his deceased father in Veteran, Secretary Laird
long felt that Veterans of World the state Senate in 1946, having
part in state and national War II should take an active
And I believe that this is an opportunity to prove the point.
As a state senator, Laird supported the rehabilitation
funds and grants for needy
His strong, but evenhanded veterans.
legislation helped push through the initial Veteran Homeland
Program, a program that still exists and flourishes yet today.
Laird, like many of his contemporaries, felt that it was
important that a veteran be able
As early as 1947, Laird sought to build and own his own home.
from the state general fund to legislation transferring monies
providing a second foundation for the fund that veterans draw
from to this day. *During his first term in
office, the Mosinee Times called
servicemen and women in the most Laird a friend of Wisconsin
The Wisconsin Department of iVeterans Affairs is pleased to
present this program tonight in honor of Secretary Melvin Laird,
a true friend of Wisconsin
I thank you tonight for attending.
*If I could just have Jeremi come up here for a second.
I just have something special.
this week when he was in the I was talking to Rich Zeitland
I said what can we do to take care of Jeremi for all the
support he's done for us. He said, well, we need to put
something in his office for him to remember us by.
We just have a small token from the Department of Veterans
Affairs, a certificate to Jeremi
outstanding service to Wisconsin in appreciation for your
your devotion to advancing the veterans and the community for
diplomatic, and military history discussion of political,
your role in promoting the in the public realm, and for
the Wisconsin Department of Veterans Affairs presents thanks
and well wishes for an ongoing
the Wisconsin Department of and proVeterans Affairs.ip with
Thank you, Jeremi.
Thank you. (applause)
That's actually a real >> Enjoy your evening.
I had no idea. surprise.
if she knew that was coming. My wife might have actually come
what she missed. I should tell her
I tell people I have the best Thankjob in the world.cocos.
I get to work with wonderful
and I get paid for it. people and study crucial topics,
the world. It's really the greatest job in
work with great students. I'm so excited to be here and to
see this event come together. I've long been a scholar of Mel
Laird's career. And now I feel like we have a
biography that Mel Laird has
And we have an audience of long deserved.
importance of Mel Laird's career, and also what we have to
learn from it.
learn the lessons of history. IAnd I hope we're all prepared't
now, as we move forward, to learn those lessons better.
And I know that this book, and
career will help with that. o*I want to quickly thank thed's
organizers again, Secretary Scocos, I really want to thank
him now.
Zeitland, the wonderful director Jeff Kolat, Dr. Richard
I want to thank Professor James Boffman, who has in true form
not put himself up here, but he should be up here.
Professor James Boffman, the
Journalism and Mass Comm. direcI just call himol of
"Chairman Boffman." He really made this event come
together. And I think we should give Jim
a round of applause.
*Well, to start us out, before we get to our panel of scholars
on Mel Laird, I have the great
before, of introducing the honor, that I've never had
university, Chancellor John Wiley, also a good friend,
I think.
John is actually the only chancellor I've known.
He became chancellor as I arrived as a lowly assistant
professor.
events was probably one of my first events at the University
Club, where he explained to us
the university. aI remember him saying that the
University of Wisconsin is a
special connection to our scommunity that we should nevera
forget. He was telling us that as young
assistant professors. And he's lived that experience.
He really has.
He's been very supportive of our He's modeled that for all of us.
the Department of Veterans work at the Veterans Museum and
around the state. AffAnd so, it's really been aams
privilege to be one of, I guess,
I have one gripe, though. John's the only chancellor I've
known.
United States under FDR. I feel like the citizens of the
the third term who couldn't Thremember anyone else who hadf
been president. They didn't know what was going
to happen next. So my only gripe is that John
isn't staying on longer.
leaving at a certain point. But he will sorely be missed,
especially by the young faculty that had the privilege of
working under him.
( applause ) John.
You've been on the faculty long enough that you should know by
now that I work for you, you
Anyway, in 132 days, you'll find don't work for me.
Well, it's a real privilege to* out what comes next.
in this event, at least for the have bfirst few moments.cipate
Like Secretary Scocos, I'm going
soon as I finish here. to have to run to another one as
the opening of this symposium Buthonoring the legacy of Melfor
Laird, and to help give due recognition to one of the most
accomplished and influential
produced. Laird's work as a republican
Congressman representing
and his work as a US Secretary Wisconsin in the '50s and '60s,
administration led to lasting and beneficial impacts in many
walks of American life, including healthcare, education,
basic research, the modern
*Secretary Scocos ticked off a few of his many accomplishments.
I'll add a little bit to that list, mentioning especially some
in the area of education. Education has always mattered
very deeply to Melvin Laird and his family.
For example, his mother, Helen
the UW Board of Regents. Connor Laird, was a member of
bring young people from across To this day, Laird continues to
for Laird Leadership Days. Wisconsin to Stevens Point
College in Minnesota, Laird was Whalways very proud and deeplyon
connected to the University of
He helped to advance UW Madison in many ways.
But I'll mention specifically his work on behalf the McArdle
Laboratory for Cancer Research
strong commitment. as being indicative of that
was housed in what we always In the late '50s, McArdle Lab
space, and needed more lab space refer to as woefully inadequate
But UW Madison was unable at dedicated to cancer research.
matching funds required by the that time to provide the
qualify for additional federal National Cancer Institute to
Working with the then McArdle director, Harold Rush, another
legend in Wisconsin, Laird
appropriations amendment that ultimately led to construction
funds for 14 regional cancer
including the McArdle centers Laboratory.country,
It was a hard fought battle,
for those days, but it was also giva huge step forward in theent
maturation of cancer research nationwide, and certainly here
at Wisconsin. Laird takes great pride in his
record of support for medical and biosciences research, a
record that includes the
Disease Control and Prevention, eand the transformation of theor
National Institutes of Health into the world's leading
research facilities.
Madison's standing as a research There is no doubt that UW
biosciences research owes a great deal to Laird's leadership
and vision in those areas.
from leaders on both sides of Lairthe political aisle, aslaim
evidenced in the new UW Press biography written by Dale Van
Atta, which you have heard about
evening. and will hear more about this
President Gerald Ford speaks Once comment about Laird from
Ford said, "Without Melvin Laird volumes.
of Defense, there likely as our country's tenth Secretary
Vietnam War during the Nixon would've been no end to the
draft, no steady military admmodernization during thehe
country's virulently
control treaties with the then anti-military years, and no arms
It's also revealing that equal Soviet Union."
side of the aisle. praise comes from the democratic
considers Mel Laird to have been I'm told that Jimmy Carter
member of Nixon's cabinet. the most under-appreciated
and thank a few people who are Finally, I'd like to acknowledge
They've already been mentioned, but I'll acknowledge again,
Jim's contribution. Jim is the director of the
School of Journalism. He's out there somewhere.
And history professor, Jeremi Suri, who just introduced me.
Together with Jim, had the
this event and draw together vision and foresight to organize
presenters and attendees. I'd also like to give special
thanks to our next speaker--. I'm sorry, our next speaker is
actually our last speaker.
to Jeremi. So I will turn the podium back
symposium. Please have an enjoyable
can't stay and enjoy it with Again, I'm very sorry that I
( applause ) you.
I'm going to now have the great >> honor of introducing thehn.
panelists.
panelists just before he speaks. I will introduce each of the
group. We have a really fantastic
Professor George Herring. WeProfessor Herring is--h
You have to go operate
( laughs ) on someone, Steve?
Professor Herring is-- It's okay.
who gets that beep. It's When it's a student,geon
an undergraduate of mine, I get angry.
If you're a surgeon, it's okay. Also a veteran!
Professor Herring is the alumni Professor of History at the
University of Kentucky, where he's taught since 1969.
And I feel like, even though
a little bit over the last few I've only gotten to know George
longer. His work is work that I sort of
came of age as an historian reading.
His book, as I'm sure you've all
you should read, "America's read, anLongest War."n't read,
It's the best single-volume work
covering the entire period from the end of World War II through
1975. It's now in its 87th edition,
I think, George, right? Four?
It seems like 87 editions.
He's also a distinguished Escholar who's covered a number.
of issues, in addition to, far
of course a big enough task in beyond the Vietnam War, which is
he has written what is still one and of itself for a full career,
American aid to Russia of the best books on
People forget that the United States was one of the major,
perhaps the most important
Union during World War II, and provider of aid to the Soviet
And George's book on the other things.
first book is still, I think, sthe best book on the subject.is
And make room on your bookshelves.
George has a monster book coming
the United States. out soon, the Oxford History of
all of American diplomatic This is a one-volume history of
just about the present. hisIn 2008, that will be out.to
And I highly recommend it to
I read it in draft. It's just fantastic.
George is going to speak today, but about Laird and the Vietnam
War.
speaker for that. APlease join me in welcominger
George Herring. ( applause )
Thank you very much, Jeremi,
I thank all of you for having me for that nice introduction.
For years and years and years, I here.
special places, Madison and the University of Wisconsin were.
Most recently, from a student of
summer to learn Vietnamese. During the afternoon and the
evening, I have begun to see
it's so. exactly why that's so and how
as an institution. And I'm so impressed with this,
comparable in Kentucky. II'm delighted to be here.ng
I hope I've brought a little
Take heart. The dogwood is only beginning to
bloom in Kentucky in the last week or so.
It is on the way. And it's really an honor to be
able to spend a few minutes talking about a very special,
distinguished public servant. And it's been quite interesting.
I didn't know that much about Mel Laird and the Defense
Department until I started
in the month of March. reading while we were in Florida
Kentucky winters. And I came to find out he's just
a fascinating character.
humor, by his skill, by his caring, wonderful character to
work with.
service as Secretary of Defense, I'm going to talk about his
Vietnam War, and all in 15 especially as it pertains to the
That's quite a challenge. The first point I would like to
make is that the job of Secretary of Defense is at least
the second most difficult job in
An astronomical and extraordinarily complex defense
budget. Deeply entrenched military
bureaucracies with their own
ties to Congress. pComplex weapons systems beinge
promoted by high powered
In Melvin Laird's time, as lobbyists.
costly and unpopular war in a land terra incognito to most
Americans.
a number of its occupants. And the job has taken a toll on
plunged to his death from a room The first secretary of defense
His successor, the cantankerous and ambitious Louis Johnson, was
so cantankerous and ambitious that Harry Truman eventually had
to fire him.
so-called whiz kids came to Washington with the idea of
reforming the Department of Defense, the Pentagon.
Macnamara left office seven years later, a broken man, not
quite sure at that point whether
the slick hand of Lyndon he had been fired, or somehow by
resignation. Johnson, coaxed him to
Clifford, recalled his year in Macnamara's successor, Clark
five years, 1968 was the the office as a year that lasted
Of course, we recently witnessed extraordinary year.
Pentagon reformer, Donald the fate Rumsfeld.r would-be
Melvin Laird came to the office with distinguished extraordinary
credentials.
for 16 years. HAnd during much of that time,ss
had served on the House Defense Appropriations subcommittee.
So by the time he moved into the
understood something of the politics of the building, and
the intricacies of the defense
He had close ties with Congress, budget.
in the Nixon administration in a which were very, very important
What I came to learn was that he variety of ways.
bureaucratic operator, all those was a wonderfully skilled
Before taking office, Nixon knew two words convey.
began to a little more, and wondered out loud with President
Eisenhower one time.
Laird is a devious man." He said, "I've heard that
"Of course Laird is devious." But for anyone who has to run,
the Pentagon and get along with Congress, that's a valuable
asset.
grudgingly concedes his admiration for Laird's political
bureaucratic skills.
many of you remember, was a Thveritable den of plots, as
conspiracies, backbiting, to
benign by comparison. Nixon and Kissinger sought to
dominate the foreign policy process.
They took no interference from
They operated in secrecy. burThey used back channeled.
communications to keep other
Kissinger's staff often complained that they were
treated like mushrooms. They were kept in the dark, got
a lot of manure piled on them,
Laird more than held his own in athis environment.d.
He learned very quickly that
kept from him. important information was being
that he found out what was going So he found ways to make sure
The head of the National on.
secret, it's initials, NSA, are Secsaid to stand for No Suchn so
Agency. That person was a Laird
appointee and gave him copies of
messages. mDistrustful of the CIA and thel
State Department, Kissinger sometimes used the military
cable.
that, giving him other means of Laird, of information.access to
The unit that took care of
informed of Kissinger's trips. military travel kept him
an edge in dealing with the highly secretive White House.m
On occasion, more than one
Kissinger. occasion, he was able to one-up
through the National Security Council mechanism, sought to get
control of the defense budget.
He submitted papers deliberately Laird stalled.
staff had to spend hours so confusing that Kissinger's
He sent out different versions rewriting them.
places. Kissinger finally gave up.
"There goes the most devious man
undoubtedly with an admiring in government," Nixon remarked,
ultimately victorious. smile, as Laird left the meeting
favorite story, Kissinger sought Another time, and this is my
presidential meeting with the to excludpope.rd from a
Protocol required, however, that
helicopter from St. Peters Nixon would fly on a military
in the Mediterranean. SLaird brought the helicopter
to St. Peters an hour before
And you can imagine the racket Nixon was due to arrive.
square. The Pope couldn't help but hear
the noise, and invited the
You can imagine Kissinger's shock when he arrived and Melvin
Laird was already there.
National Security advisors ultra When Laird found out about the
up Nixon's 1972 visit, Laird secret 1971 trip to China to set
to Taiwan. scheduled a simultaneous visit
him, and without explaining why, Kissinger was forced to call
Kissinger admits that in tangles asked him to reschedule.
he lost as often as he won. But he also concedes that Laird
operated with the buoyancy and
with him a satisfying as it could be on occasion, maddening.
As Secretary of Defense, Laird
He was aware, already, from his time in Congress, of the damage
done by Macnamara's abrasive
management style. He introduced a de-centralized
system, emphasizing cooperation.
Office, which had been the He crippled the Systems Analysis
so-called whiz kids. bailiwick of Macnamara's
the confidence and cooperation He worked very hard to regain
Again, badly damaged during the of tMacnamara era.ces.
He gave the service secretaries and the Joint Chiefs more
influence in such key areas as
One of the songs that was sung budget development.
resonate with some of you World War II era people, a short timel
after Laird came into office
the transformation." was, "Praise the Laird and push
a different era. A happy song for many people in
administration was to adjust US foreign policy and defense
posture to the limits of a new
There was a clear realization by era.
could not do everything in the 1969 that the United States
John Kennedy's 1961 pledge to pay any price, bear any burden.
The so-called Nixon doctrine
greater responsibility for their called for Allies to take
Laird reduced US forces in South own defense.
for its own defense, both of Korea and persuaded Japan to pay
Under his administration, as them very challenging tasks.
course, the draft was ended and haplanning initiated for an of
all-volunteer force.
a if not the dominant national The Vietnam War was, of course,
years. security issue of the Nixon
in shaping Nixon administration And Laird ppolicies.ecisive role
By January 1969, as many of you remember, the war had become in
the words of Nixon's speech writer, William Sapphire,
"A bone in the nation's throat."
troops in Vietnam, a heavy Despite more than a half million
United States could gain no more bombing of North Vietnam, the
With no end in sight, opposition than a stalemate.
was manifested, many of you aremember here, in large andnd
sometimes violent anti-war
On March 31, 1968, Johnson demonstrations.
policy, and even withdrew from introduced major changes in
he must have done knowing him a the plittle bit, with someething
reluctance. These initiatives produced no
real breakthroughs. And when he left office, the war
remained stalemate. The nation remained bitterly
divided.
Laird relentlessly promoted what As Secretary of Defense, Melvin
He believed that Johnson's he called Vietnamization.
been to Americanize the war, greatest mistake in Vietnam had
most of the fighting to US beginning in 1965, to turn over
He understood, Laird understood, troops.
of public support, it was essential to begin withdrawing
US forces from Vietnam and shift
operations back to the South the burden of military
The other part of the plan was Vietnamese.
aid to South Vietnam, to bolster to drastically increase military
and of course, to protect the administration from charges of
selling out an ally.
withdrawals, he reasoned, would persuade the public and Congress
that the United States was
some time. getting out of Vietnam, buying
that military victory was Laird seeimpossible.recognized
The best plan was to get US forces out and hope that South
Vietnam could defend itself and do everything possible to ensure
that outcome. Laird's plan drew fierce
opposition from within the Nixon
Some military leaders saw it as the beginning of a rear guard
military action, which in truth,
Some complained or insisted that it was.
certain conditions were met inside South Vietnam, which has
an eery resonance to today. Kissinger complained that
withdrawing troops would weaken his hand in negotiations.
Troop withdrawals, he argued in a famous memo, would be like
salted peanuts. The more you got, the more you
wanted. It would be an irresistible
process once it got underway. And over Kissinger's strenuous
objections, Laird's program was approved by Nixon
in the spring of 1969.
He too at times wavered on the But his support was conditional.
And it was really Laird who provided the momentum and the
relentless pressure to keep the program going.
He used every opportunity available to him to secure
presidential approval for removing fixed numbers of US
troops. Using a precedent set by
Clifford in 1968, sometimes he
numbers of troop withdrawals would leak or announced the
approved them. before Nixon had formally
the president had little choice And oncbut to go along.there,
Each withdrawal, he accompanied with maximum publicity, to make
sure there could be no
The numbers fell backtracking.
to 415,000 June 1970, fro150,000 December 1971,8,
and 47,000 in June 1972.
of US troops, Laird also While pushing for the withdrawal
opposed escalation of the war. consistently and steadfastly
1972, and especially in 1969 and Numerous times between 1969 and
considered, or actually launched 1970, Nixon and Kissinger
Indo-China. eWorking usually with Secretary
of State William Rogers, Laird
insisting, in most cases repeatedly argued against,
lost in terms of provoking correctly, that more would be
be gained by bolstering the US domestic opposition than would
position. Laird supported the bombing of
North Vietnamese sanctuaries in Cambodia in 1969, but he
objected to keeping it secret.
could not be kept secret, first, He insisted correctly that it
well, if this is important and he went on to argue that
be important enough to put out enough to do, then it ought to
about it, not try to do it before the public and argue
And on both points he was right. behind the scenes.
had fateful unintended The secret bombing of Cambodia
The inevitable leaks to the press provoked the White House
to wiretap numerous government
phone of one of Laird's top military assistants, one of the
first in a series of moves that ultimately snowballed into
Watergate.
a major escalation of the war Lairdin the fall of 1969.hwart
They also strenuously opposed the US incursion into Cambodia
in the spring of 1970,
think, that such a move could inot be decisive militarily.I
They protested that the use of
off a huge uproar at home, US troops in Cambodia would set
they were on target. again, as many of you recall,
incursion reawakened the The April 1970 Cambodia
revived it, and also produced the first efforts on the part of
Congress to exert some kind of
So I think on the fundamental questions regarding the Vietnam
War, Laird was right more often than wrong.
Shrewd geo-politicians that they
never quite recognize, or maybe wereaccept that by 1969, theuld
home front was the decisive theater in the war.
Laird saw that with clarity.
withdrawals were essential. He understood that escalation
would be counter productive.
more than offset by losses at Any gains inhome.nam would be
And I think again, he was right.
of the war in 1969 and 1970 Thseriously weakened its hand.n
No less an authority on this
had been an advisor to Lyndon suJohnson, has speculated thato
perhaps if Nixon and Kissinger
and 1970, and not escalated the war, the outcome perhaps might
have been different.
independence could not have been Perhaps South Vietnamese
But perhaps also the war might sustained.
fashion than it did in 1975. have ended in a less traumatic
hardly have been worse than it The result, he concludes, could
I am not entirely convinced of Bundy's argument, nor am I
persuaded as Secretary Laird
October 2005 foreign affairs contended in his much publicized
escalations, Vietnam had article that despite Nixon's
of 1973 was viable, and sCongressional Aid cuts werent
primarily responsible for the 1975 debacle.
What is beyond doubt, however,
on withdrawing troops was is that Laiessential.tless push
He carried it off despite a notable lack of support from top
military people in the White
It fundamentally altered the House.
At the Pentagon, Laird repaired relations with the military and
Congress. During a difficult period, he
held things together. In an administration wrought by
scandal, he left office in 1972.
in tact, but enhanced. His reputation not simply
more successful people to have He rates, I think, as one of the
position. serThank you very much.ult
( applause )
I always enjoy hearing George speak.
He's so analytical but also so
Thank you, George. funny in a wry way.
of introducing Reid Hall. II've gotten to know Reid overe
the last few years. And it's really been a privilege
to get to know Reid and to work with him.
Reid is just a delightful and thoughtful person.
He is the executive director, as
Marshfield Clinic. most of you know, of the
audience that the Marshfield And I need not tell this
largest private medical clinics Clin the United States.ve
I've often asked why
It's certainly the best. it isn't the largest.
Clinic, recipient of a great And it has been, the Marshfield
from Secretary Laird. dealMuch of its growth andort
innovation is actually, I think,
throughout his career, something been deeply supported by Laird
amount about. tMost significant though, I doir
want to mention that Reid Hall
the Marshfield Clinic, not only ithe person who is helpful ands
insightful on all issues of politics and diplomacy in the
state, he's also a graduate from
Wisconsin-Madison. the University of
So, proving once again, that you He graduated in 1970.
a degree at the University of can't do anWisconsin.han getting
So without any further adieu, let me turn it over to Reid.
Thank you, Reid.
Thank you very much. ( applause )
No one really runs the I should correct you.
doctors, and I don't know how Marshmany additional staff. 777
Welcome.
panel tonight, to speak in part about a gentleman that's very,
very important to the Marshfield
the city of Marshfield, to the Clinic, and to me personally, to
the nation in my judgment. state of Wisconsin, and indeed
being able to be here. Mel sends his regrets for not
to write, and edit, and publish, This book has taken us ten years
research was done on this thing. which tells you how detailed the
part of the writing and Are-directing, as any Secretaryn
of Defense would continue to do after he leaves office.
But Mel, I know looked forward
many years. tUnfortunately, he's recoveringr
from some health issues that
But he's recovering very well preand we look forward to Melht.
joining the book tour later this
He sends his very best to you, summer.
here. But let me just highlight a few
things about his career, and
that primarily involve the accent, if I may, the things
done for medical research, healthcare field and what he's
specifically the clinic. medical education, and
up in Marshfield. YouHis family home is there.rew
His brother has a home there. Strong roots in the city of
Marshfield. He graduated from Marshfield
Senior High, then went to Carlton College thereafter.
He served with distinction in the Navy during World War II,
received the Purple Heart for injuries received on his ship
during the war effort.
ran successfully for his Following the Navy service, he
from our district. father's seat in the Senate,
away unexpectedly. Unfortunately, his father passed
youngest state senator that we So at age 24, Mel Laird is the
Senate. He enjoyed the state Senate from
1946 to 1952. Gaylord Nelson, a colleague from
those days, once called Laird the most formidable senator on
the republican side.
and mutual admiration continued. And that friendship continued,
1952, and represented the 7th Congressional District for many
years, 1952-1969. While in Congress, Mel was
recognized as one of a handful
that could get things done of upper Midwestern congressmen
Other individuals in that category were young republican
representatives by the name of
Rhodes of Arizona, Bob Michael Gerry Ford of Michigan, John
Rumsfeld of Illinois. "With Honor" points out, which
is the book we're chatting about
In chapter five, Mel was known tonight.
zealot of the highest order when in Congress as a cloud rider, a
programs and research. it comes to funding health
wishes his legacy would be in And I thinthe future.uly what he
I'm certain that Mel, growing up
with his lifelong interest in in Marshfihealthcare.part to do
Dr. Stephan Upstein, one of our dermatologists and researchers,
is very close to the Laird
And Dr. Upstein encouraged Mel family.
when he got to Congress. to concentrate on health issues
do so much more than a group of Hdoctors can do if he's on thean
right committees. So Mel did exactly that.
In 1959, he became the ranking
Subcommittee. During this time, Mel and his
partner at HEW Appropriations,
Rhode Island, multiplied the John Fogerty, a democrat from
budget by a factor of 28-fold. National Institutes of Health
for expanding programs. They successfully sponsored 12
regional cancer centers, the CDC
Medicine. They vastly expanded the NIH,
the National Environment Center in North Carolina, and many
other health related programs,
was mentioned, the McArdle including here in Madison, as
the University of Wisconsin LabCancer Center and the Mathh,
Center. These were among his many
projects here in Madison for the
He served on the World Health organization board from 1959,
with an appointment from
Johnson in 1963, serving 12 Eisenhowyears in total.1961, and
President Nixon asked Mel Laird to leave a nice, safe
congressional district here in
position as Secretary of Wisconsin in 1969, and take a
And I think we'll hear more about that department from Dale
Van Atta. He served in that position for
four years, one term, to 1973.
that he was going to be leaving at the end of four years, and he
did.
the House. It was very difficult to leave
But he said when the President He enjoyed that very, very much.
turn him down. called, it was very difficult to
was responsible for three primary things, in my judgment.
The disengagement of US combat
draft and designing the forces volunteer service.ng the
And having been at the
to 1970, and living through some University of Wisconsin in 1966
Laird was certainly a figure of the turbulent years here, Mel
But anyway, moving on. that we all knew.
position, 1973 and 1974, he served as White House counselor
to the president for domestic affairs.
And he received the Presidential
After retiring from public Medal of Freedom in 1974.
counselor to the Reader's Digest service in 1974, he became a
has continued for 34 years, and Associacontinues today.ciation
He also served as director to a Trust, as well as on the board
of directors to many other large
He's received over 300 honorary degrees, including the Public
Service Award for Healthcare. His relationship with the
Marshfield Clinic extends to his
his treatment there. early years, when he received
clinic. He's helped us with our research
and education mission, helped us
there. set up our first HMO operation
our national advisory council He's beensince 1982.member of
We're honored to be the home of the Laird Center, the original
Laird Center, which was dedicated in 1997, and we will
dedicate the new Laird Center for Medical Research in October
of this year, which will be a new facility on our campus,
which will house our clinics, personalized medicine program,
infomatics research center, applied science, and our human
clinical laboratory center. The Center is going to allow
physicians and scientists to
says, great discoveries are just work side by side, and as Mel
But on behalf of Secretary Laird ahead.
want to thank you for coming. And we just have a couple clips
from a couple of Mel's friends. If you can play these.
Good, thank you.
I've just come from a very I think you'll enjoy these.
Center, which enabled me to see prfirsthand, the pioneeringrd
applications of molecular genetics to the field of
preventative medicine.
be very proud of this state of Needless to say, Mel, you should
name. thThe Center is a magnificentour
tribute in brick and mortar.
that. It's also a dynamic institution,
whose greater benefits will accrue to generations yet
unborn. This much I know for sure.
At the end of the day, no leader
in the polls he conducted, or wthe tactical victories he mayrt
have racked up. Anyone can take a poll.
Only a leader can move a nation.
given that kind of leadership to All his life, Mel Laird has
us in America, and yes to all you here inthe world., to all of
As a result, no historian tracing the evolution of this
country during the second half
able to overlook the life and othe legacy of the man frome
Marshfield. He remains today, what he has
always been, a model public servant, a can-do conservative.
He went into politics because he
distrusted bureaucrats. A man who reflects honor upone
Washington, and the people who
A patriot before a partisan. sent him there.
you've done for the Fords, for Thank you, old friend, for all
for all that you have given so all you've been to Wisconsin,
all America. graciously and successfully to
better for having known you. Those of us who know you are
( applause )ou.
Mel Laird was Secretary of
complicated and tragic periods Defense in one of the most
When he became Secretary of Defense, he found 550,000
American troops in as far away
place them. And some of those who put them
there joined the peace movement.
under conditions which were Wecompatible with the honor ofps
this country, and the security
the reliability and steadiness of the world, which depends on
And that had to be done under conditions where not only every
move in that direction was under
simultaneously, the defense budget was under sharp criticism
and subject to constant pressure
And finally at time when the to be reduced.
believed that it was essential president and his associates
people that we had a vision of to demonstrate to the American
with the war in Vietnam, there peace, so that simultaneously,
on the limitation of various had to be conducted negotiations
possibility that one could be fattacked from both the liberale
and conservative sides, simultaneously.
These policies could never have been carried out without the
imagination, the dedication and the extraordinary good humor
of Mel Laird. He was the architect of the
Vietnamization program, in which
American troops were withdrawn. Our casualties dropped to only
10% of what they were when we came in.
He was the architect of those policies.
And he was the architect of a reduced, but effective defense
budget, the major elements of which have lasted to this day.
I look at Mel as a great
as a man who President Ford has patriso justly described.ague,
President Ford, with whom I had the great honor to work, and
who, in my view, has never
for preserving and restoring the received the credit he deserves
country. dignity and honor of our
So I'd like to thank God for ( applause )
pay tribute to a great American, giving me this opportunity to
of the world. aAnd before we get too maudlin,n
let me say I think of him with
slightly tinged with enormous affection, only
( laughter ) exasperation.
Mel would've loved to have ( applause )
And perhaps we can do another program some time in the future
when he is with us. Thank you very much.
( applause )
I'm glad he stood up
I didn't want to come up right after Kissinger spoke.
And I also hope, maybe later on, after that.
but later on, I think we should all ask Reid if he has time at
the very end to tell the story
the dedication there. ofIt's quite a story, whichto
involves a flatbed truck, a farmer, and a variety of other
things. No sheep, as far as I know,
though we could add that to the story if we need to.
( inaudible ) Oh, a deer!
Sorry, mixing up that story and my fraternity life
together there for you. Okay, well now, it's really my
great honor to introduce Dale Van Atta, the author of this
magisterial and deeply important
The most important, most volume.
will be a longstanding landmark sibiography of Mel Laird.hat
I first had the opportunity to
when it was about twice as long as the version you will all buy
and read, I hope. And it was a wonderful book
then. But one point that Dale and I
talked a little bit about by
the publisher about, was making this a book that Americans, many
Americans, would have the chance
And I so respect Dale's hard and opportunity to read.
a great manuscript, and I know, wbeing a writer myself, you puty
every ounce of energy into every
every file card, and every word, and every sentence, and
It's very hard to liberate document.
My graduate students in the audience know this as well.
Usually, for them, I just take
It's a little harder to do that to Dale Van Atta.
But he did this.
for his attention to serious And I have great respect, both
for his desire and commitment to historical research, but also
needs to be told is told in a way that ordinary Americans can
read and understand.
He's co-author of a book on Dale iNorman Schwartzkopf,thor.
"Stormin' Norman, an American Hero."
He's written, "Trust Betrayed:
this great book, "With Honor: IMel Laird in War, Peacew
and Politics."
Dale Van Atta. Please join me in welcoming
I didn't know I'd be ( applause )
either. foll( laughs )y Kissinger
We should tell that story.
dedication. And I realize it was more than
ten years since I started on
I was already working on it in this.
And Henry Kissinger, who had 1997.
very difficult things around the survived assassination plots and
very nearly killed. He talked about getting off thes
plane in Wausau.
had ever seen. It was the largest limousine he
He gets in the limousine, late at night, with Reid Hall
and a few others. And they're driving.
And you know that great dreaded killer of men and women in
Wisconsin, a Wisconsin deer,
They were very lucky. It just hit the grille.
As you know, some people die if it hits the windshield, bounces
up, still alive, goes kicking into the car.
So it was fairly frightening, but everyone came out a little
unruffled.
going to get Dr. Kissinger to They dithe dedication.hey were
So along comes Melvin McGuire,
One of the favorite interviews I this Wisconsin farmer.
Once they were driving in the vehicle, you know, he had just
come from a city hall meeting.
there. I think he was a town councilman
Kissinger who he was. And he,Well, "My name asked
is Henry Kissinger."
in Marshfield Clinic, because I think he said,
"Dr. Henry Kissinger."
who was really important And here was Reid Hall,
"Oh, what do you do?" from ( laughs )ield Clinic.
It slowly started to dawn on
started dropping names. Well, I was just, you know, at
Princess Diana's funeral, and so
So he kind of realized it. on.
Dr. Kissinger was pretty But I would like to tell you,
I will tell you, it was my aim gracious with me and this book.
the years preceding this book. to be his arch nemesis during
Jack Anderson. I worked with a columnist named
animus toward Henry Kissinger from him, for a variety of
measures. But at one point, like after
Tienanmen Square, I revealed
with China, and so on. some of his financial dealings
more a fan of mine than he was So, suffice it to say he was no
cause him to go apoplectic. And made the mistake within ten
minutes of mentioning Sy's name,
decided turn for the worse. But we went to the Marshfield
Clinic. I had been bumped off a plane
for senators, or whatever.
well, at least put me at the So I asked Mel's assistant,
won't do that on his own, for table the lunch that day.ause he
So she did. It was myself, Kissinger, Bob
Michael, and a few other
Well, I went in early, to make important people.
dignitaries, that I was actually sure, this lunch for 500 or 600
Surely, I was. sitting next to him.
And then, well ahead of anyone There was the placard there.
his body guard. elseSo I faded to the back. with
I knew he wouldn't recognize me.
watched as he went around the table, checking all the place
cards.
moved it to a far table, and He saw mine, was clearly aghast,
knew and liked that would be replaced it with a woman that he
the dreaded Dale Van Atta. sitting next to him, instead of
done, he removed from the hall. And thenAt which point,at he had
I brought it back.
So he found himself sitting ( lightnext to me.
I told Larry Eagleburger this story, and of course the great
Wisconsinite, he was Secretary
Dr. Kissinger earlier. of State later, and worked for
the time. He'd scope the room and see who
he was going to sit with. The gamesmanship never ended
with Dr. Kissinger. So that was one of the reasons
for doing the book. One of the reasons that
compelled me to do it was I felt, here was an underrated
individual who was--
rejection slips I got. I should read you some of the
matter, and I couldn't believe This is just a guy that didn't
Every time we got a rejection slip about writing a book about
this great man, it just made me more concerned that I should do
it, that he had been far too
One of the things that underrated for far too long.
it, was these very eloquent remarks by Dr. Herring, was the
ability is not known, the ability of Mel Laird, to stymie
Henry Kissinger, and his own
couple years. And when I'm saying that, for
me, one of the reasons I was
that he was able to stymie them on, were things I was personally
interested in.
the book. So it wasn't just gamesmanship.m
What Laird wanted was quite often the same, more often than
not, he agreed with Kissinger.
they were enemies. It would be a mistake to say
competitive. They were combative and
they agreed, particularly when But probably 80% of the time,
And a lot of times, Kissinger ididn't necessarily have an.
opinion.
that same speech, quite rightly, For instance, he also said in
arms control without Laird. he cBecause it was Laird who any
provided him the numbers that the military could live with.
So using those numbers, Dr. Kissinger negotiated with
the Soviets.
often the same as what Kissinger What Laird wanted was quite
But four major exceptions became wanted.
Laird wanted one, sizeable and evident in the first year.
Vietnam; two, national swift American withdrawal from
international pressure for more acknowlhumane treatment.OWs, and
And there are many POWs who will
it's true with even John McCain, tell you that, and some believe
forcing it to become a public tissue, which Dr. Kissingery
didn't want.
policy and the policy of the Avil Herreman, it had been his
if you do this, they had an Junderstandable opinion, if you
make the POWs important, then it'll be part of the peace
negotiations and they'll use
Mel felt, this is a human issue. them as a pawn.
Convention. I don't care if they become part
of the peace negotiations.
day. They are being tortured every
going public on it, which he did And by ignoring them and not
wonderful picture in the book with the POW wives around him.
I mean, they were tearful.
before, but now he was going They had met with Secretaries
important issue. public and saying this is an
campaign and the Son Tay Raid, a So between that going public
that turned out to be empty, the raid against the prison camps
conditions improved. POWs will tell you that their
Less torture during that time Many liperiod.e saved.
There's a couple scholarly works
Number three, unhesitating on that.
all-volunteer force. movement from the draft to the
who committed Nixon to that at the end of a radio address.
They were writing for him.
September 30, the previous year, And so, he just read it on
And Laird held him to it. There were some great people
behind the scenes, Martin Anderson, Milton Friedman,
scholars at the University of Rochester.
There had already been a
that and their expertise. mAnd four, a commitment to open
government, which fully informs the public on all important
matters.
three goals was the more That Laird won on the first
because it was not only Kissinger, but Nixon who opposed
him.
open government became a painful Laird's loss on the issue of
The paranoid penchant for secrecy that led Nixon and
Kissinger to lie about the
actions added to the bombing of Cambodia and other
later made Nixon's resignation administration's discredit and
Laird had come to this position in what he felt was the worst of
all possible ways.
mean, yes there were some people There are very few people, I
Defense, but very few that you that wanted to be Secretary of
So a deal had been arranged. would want in there.
republican vice president, Here was this cashiered
Dick Nixon, who had lost against former republican Vice President
And two years later, against John F. Kennedy.
friends had run for governor of Laird's adCalifornia.l his other
The nation thought he was gone. But he comes back roaring after
George Romney, the father of the
starting tripping and falling recover the Vietnam issue.ate,
And Nixon rises to the fore and declare's he's the front runner.
And one of the reasons he won,
there was a belief in the ifAmerican public, and there'se
various stories about how that
had a secret plan to end the started, was that Richard Nixon
I've been waiting during this election, 40 years later, to
hear that one of these
and I can't tell you about it, candidates has a secret plan,
to the enemy now, but when I get because we don't want to give it
implementing this plan. So it was quite interesting.
That was one of the reasons that
though the margin was closing, he won against Hubert Humphrey,
by the time that occurred. with the Salt Lake City speech,
goal. OncHe wanted to be the firstone
president of the United States, I mean it was a public relations
goal, to announce all the secretaries at once.
He wanted that picture on the front page of the New York
Times, with all the cabinet secretaries.
And he lined them all up. Mel picked several of them, and
Mel unquestionably talked him into Henry Kissinger, not a
cabinet member of the time. But Mel was very fond and
admired Henry Kissinger, because
back to 1964. Kissinger had helped out with
the republican platform.
previous books, and considered He had used some of his help in
thinker. him a great conservative
that time, until Mel introduced him and said this is a good man.
I'm not sure he was actually
Mel claims that he was the one. therAnd Kissinger told me he but
couldn't dispute that.
cabinet, and Mel says, we have But he wants to pick his
cabinet. got to have a democrat in this
Henry Scoop Jackson, the senator And the best democrat will be,
Arch conservative about the Soviet Union, a hawk when it
came to the military. Let's make him Secretary of
Defense.
Jackson, who was interested. So they talked to Senator
There was no way he could stand up in the democratic party if he
resigned as senator and became a
republican governor of cabinet official, and the
him with a democrat. Washington, Dan Evans, replaced
extraordinary deal where So Laird and others raised an
a democrat to replace Scoop Governor EvaJackson.d to appoint
So they jumped through hoops to get Jackson to do this.
Well then, Jackson went drinking
outing for democratic senators. And Teddy said, you know, I've
heard that you might be accepting secretary of defense.
You can't do that.
ambitions. I know you have presidential
if you become Nixon's secretary You can neof defense. president
That is not a springboard for the presidency.
And he was quite right. So Scoop changed his mind.
He called Nixon at the last minute, while he was at a
Republican Governor's Association meeting in Palm
Springs, he said, I'm not going to do it.
Well, Mel had pushed Scoop on him, so Nixon was furious.
So he tells Mel, you're going to
I only have a few days. You are going to become
secretary of defense. You are the ranking member on
the House Appropriations
as Health. Committee for Defense, as well
You have the respect. YYou're going to do it.
It was the last thing in the
Certainly, Mel didn't want to do world anyone should want to do.
So over the next day, and as it.
Airforce Base in this plane with they're flying back to Andrews
keeps trying to persuade him. himYou're going to do this.xon
And in the end, Mel knew he couldn't say no to serving his
country and the president elect.
Mel played his trump card. By the time they got closer,
Nixon of one condition that if He thought he was going to tell
condition, he would become Richard Nixon met this
He said to Nixon, I want to make secretary of defense.
Pentagon, civilian and military. every appointment in the
I mean, the Pentagon is this You cannot put anyone there.
president that comes in. huge, patronage pot for every
defense who actually got to Andchoose his own deputy. of
Rumsfeld didn't get to choose his own deputy.
That's not who he would've
That's chosen by the president. picIt's a payoff to politicalnd.
advisors and friends over the years.
Why is it a payoff. Because it's like this straight
shift.
political aids over the years in If you put all these great
Yes, it's not the greatest the Pentagon.
what, four years later they're salary in the world, but guess
defense industry and make some going to move right out into the
So Mel was taking that away. serious money and go on boards.
House or the president of the United States call the shots
there.
Nixon finally, at that point, Hethey'd both had quite a fewo.
Manhattans. I pushed Mel on it, and he said,
yeah, we were a little woozy. There was a little rough flight
there at the end. And Nixon said sure, why not.
So Mel said, well, you know, I
They looked around and none of need this in writing.
So they took a cocktail napkin them had a piece of paper.
on this cocktail napkin that he guaranteed the White House could
not force any selection on Mel
When Mel came in, he picked his own deputy, an amazing man,
David Packard, the partner in Hewlett Packard.
Mel knew he had had 20 staffers,
congressman. or whatever it was, as a
the biggest corporation in the And he was about to head
thousands of employees. How's a congressman going to
manage this, it's not in his
I need to go out and get the expertise.
And he talks Dave Packard into best manager possible.
They kind of pass a special resolution, because they were so
into the defense department.
put all my Hewlett Packard stock Packard finally said, okay, I'll
profit during the four years into a blind trust, and any
It was a couple hundred million dollars at that time.
Because Mel talked him into it, and Packard agreed to serve,
that went to charity, the Kennedy Center, so many
beneficiaries of that particular
Mel finally agreed to come. And it was a very difficult time
period he inherited, as was eloquently said by Dr. Herring,
just this huge mess.
beginning, and I would actually Adefer to Dr. Herring ande
Dr. Suri on this, who have
But my impression was that there written and studied it more.
first year or two, that Nixon and Kissinger actually thought
they might still be able to win it.
But Mel knew from the beginning that you couldn't win it, and
you no longer had the public
That was his modus operandi. support.
If it deserves support, you can talk about it publicly..
So later on, when he's golfing
Pentagon papers have been released on Sunday in the New
York Times, Kissinger calls him and says, you son of a bitch,
you leaked this document. He was just sure that Mel had
leaked the Macnamara papers.
in the book is that by the time Bthe decision came on how togs
prosecute this, because Nixon and Kissinger wanted to
prosecute it. A thing that led to some
landmark cases, Mel thought that
published. it was just fine that it was
against it. Not only that, he kind of said
to the Pentagon officers, you know, we've checked this.
This was a history of the Vietnam War, and how we got into
it. The public deserves to know.
And we can only find like 25
national security. paragraphs that might still be
the New York Times, it's not But now, since it's already in
So he did something very because it's already out.
He did kind of quiet things. secretly.
hand was. And I accused him a number ofs
times, and he always laughed, sometimes he didn't know where
his hand was. He has a favorite expression.
He says, like over the years, when I was working with him,
"You know what I mean?" And finally, after the first
year, I said, "Heck, no,
Do you know what you mean?" Calling him on it a couple of
times, he said no, I'm still
But he thought I was an author. I would be able to interpret the
reason that he did something. This was not an introspective
man.
ways, in political gamesmanship A and understanding what theme
public wanted.
He wasn't a chess player. ButHe didn't think of all theer.
moves.
course, with an instinctive Hunderstanding of the Americant
people. And good results occurred.
And it was a wonderful thing to be able to discover that and
find that out.
are in the book have been Sommentioned by Dr. Herring.that
And I'd just like to refer to a couple more.
When I think about some of the
thinking about the current people that he affected, I was
Certainly, John McCain was presidential race.
as a result of his withdrawing affected by him, and brought out
Dr. Kissinger finishing up with the peace accords to finally get
the POWs home.
democrat at that point, she had Hilalready switched over, sheset
became an unsponsored intern to Mel Laird in the summer of 1968,
working for the House Republican
We have a picture that shows Committee.
among all the young ladies her, with the shortest skirt
But I thought, I'd like to there.
keeps telling me, she's giving really ask Hilary, because Mel
Congressman from Wisconsin a speeches and called this
So I'd like to interview her. I called Mel and asked if he
could get me an interview.
So it was set up a couple weeks Hin advance..
And when the day came, that weekend, Monica Lewinski broke.
Hilary found that weekend that
been with this intern, Monica her husbandLewinski. to her and
And I've got an appointment on
about being an intern for Mel TuesdaLaird years before.ith her
Quite a different circumstance. She kept the appointment and
just praised him to the hilt. She said you have to understand,
I have an antenna for B. S.,
I have an antenna chauvinists. she said the whole word, and
He used some of my ideas at that He actually listened to me.
And he also never gave me the impression that he thought less
of me because I was a young lady
She said I was so bold, he made me feel like such a friend that
a year later when he was
the Secretary of Defense. SI had some Biafrins come to mew
and say there's terrible things happening in Biafra, and she
said, oh I know the Secretary of
You want to go see him and talk about the military support over
in Biafra.
So she called up and they met Thwith Laird.e.
He was an extraordinary man when
talking to people. it came to understanding and
in the book comes November 15, And one of my favorite examples
difference between Laird and 1969, to demonstrate the
administration at the time. thoThat was the date of thehe
moratorium, the huge march
government. aIn fact, to this day, it still
holds the record as the largest anti-government march ever held
in Washington.
So it was youth and others, from At least 600,000 people.
Mall, all the way past the the Lincoln Memorial on the
So imagine this day, is the Secretary of Defense afraid?
No, but he knows that he wants
But if he goes out and talks to go out and talk with them.
because Mel Laird had one of the with them, he'll be recognized,
He had a bald head, shaped like most recogna missile.ds of all.
Cartoonists loved making him a
So he thought he might be a little mobbed and it might be a
distraction.
come in and see him. So instead, he had protesters
came in and saw him that day was And two of the protesters who
Jessica Laird Doyle, and her his niece, Jessica Laird, now
the idealism of the Peace Corps boyfriend,in Tunisia. fresh from
And we talked to him yesterday
And he kind of remembered it and about that experience.
yelled at him a little, and we said, you know, we kind of
about the war. were using the F-word out there
we left. But he listened to us, and then
thing that day was you had John Warner and John Chafee, Deputy
Secretary of the Navy and Secretary of the Navy.
The latter being gung-ho about
end of 1969. Vietnam, we're talking about the
the shine off their views of And he said, I wanted to knock
this war, because there were Vietnam, and that we could win
of them. still hawks at that point, both
out and talk to these youth. So he thought, I'm going to go
Navy, by assignment, on a So hSaturday, and the Deputythe
Secretary of the Navy, go mingle
And they did so in sneakers. with the youth.
car, so it wasn't a limousine. They borrowed somebody's beat up
Chafee, two days before he died, Both of them told me, John
working with Mel was like. very emotionally, about what
thing we noticed of course, was a very sweet smell in the air.
The acrid smoke, but we decided to ignore that.
And they started listening to the youth.
And the most affected was John
Decorated Marine Corps veteran. Been through some very, very
tough battles.
emotional when he was talking to And he could not help but be
veterans from Vietnam, like John the youths, some of whom were
is the wrong war. And by the way, unlike when yous
went off to war and came back,
We come back and we get blood you thrown at us.ero.
The public does not want us there.
He was very moved by that.
four-square behind him on ending Mel said they both came back
withdrawing from Vietnam. theAt the same time that day,th
Richard Nixon was in the White
anti-government demonstration ever, 57 buses end-to-end,
circling for security, the White
Executive Office Building, White House, 300 troops in the
shooters around the White House. House, and snipers and sharp
White House watching a football He's game on television.tress
He was a bit out of touch.
to work with. TOne of the things I discoveredd
that was a great surprise to me.
will bear it out. Mel's memory was quite excellent
the whole time I was working
But there was an extraordinary with him.
with Mel that I never expected circumstance with Dr. Kissinger
You've heard how Camp David and all these other things occurred.
When he was referring to Camp David, there was an incident at
one point early in the
military runs that, like they did the Navy Sequoia, like they
did the White House communications equipment, which
he knew was being taped, even when he went to see Lyndon
Johnson.
was running the secret taping He knemachine in there.artment
He had it pulled out, because he
If you tape somebody, they ought just thought that was wrong.
But they were talking about something, as I recall, and it's
in Holderman's diary, and a couple others mentioned it, out
at Camp David.
the military. TAnd a few minutes later, Meln
called and said, I understand you're trying to get a hold of
"X."
Camp David phones bugged. Well, Mel was not going to bee
the eavesdropper. It was going to be the other
side. And in fact, in a way, as was
mentioned, he was a target of the eavesdropping.
Kissinger and the National
worked with, Alexander Haig, and Security Council people had
wiretap the Secretary of so on, knew that they couldn't
But they didn't trust him and they were worried about him.
So they wiretapped his military aid's home, hoping they would
get information about what Mel
But when I talked with was up to.
said he knew about all that Kissinger, I stuff.you know, he
The incident that was mentioned with Taiwan, Mel was playing a
joke. It was terrible.
He never planned to go to Taiwan.
He knew Kissinger was going to
He already had this amazing plan China on a particular day.
Secretary to go to Tokyo, Japan, to be the first American Defense
Defense Minister, who he became friends with, and stayed through
him being Prime Minister, a man who had 50 pieces of shrapnel in
him from a Japanese Kamikaze
to meet and talk and work with plane, was going over to Tokyo
who had been on the other side. tBut he decided, when he heard,
about the secret opening to China, knew what day he was
going to be working on the China
ticked Henry didn't tell him to communica,his face.he was just
He always had to find things out
So a week before, he sent in new through his sources.
precise day. plans to be in Taiwan on that
embarrassing than during a Nothing could be more
Mainland Chinese than a known hawk Defense Secretary railing
about the evil People's Republic
Taiwan. So he let Henry swing in the
wind for a little while, then graciously agreed not to go to
the place that he was never planning to go to.
But the most significant thing
particular aspect of this gamesmanship or what have you,
was when I was interviewing Dr. Kissinger, I said, you know,
this was in 2001, Mel says he knew everything you were doing
because he had this and this and
But he also said the reason that this.
with the North Vietnamese in he knew about your negotiations
the planes and pilots, but he Paknew what you were saying,of
because the NSA had intercepted the communications between the
Paris negotiators and Hanoi, and
allegedly, some of the had even been able to decode,
the next peace negotiations. instructions that went back for
He said that was absolutely And Kissinfalse.s furious.
And if Mel's telling you that.
he's never lied. You know, he's an honest man,
But I never saw any such So I have a hard time with it.
I know of no such transcripts. transcripts.
I got back to my hotel room in So about two hours later, after
"What did you do with my good New York,friend Henry? from Mel.
He's angry at me."
at you?" I said, "Why is he angry
the transcripts. He said he's furious over
saying that I didn't see any. Because of course, if I had seen
any, why wouldn't Henry Kissinger, the chief negotiator,
the man who could use that
Vietnamese, why wasn't he informreading them.e North
And I said, well, Mel, that's a good question.
I'm an American, you know.
he should have the best stuff if However I feel about Kissinger,
the enemy. he's in there negotiating with
going to tell you now. He said, "I told him and I'm
command. He was not in my chain of
Security Advisor. I dI was a cabinet secretary.nal
I reported to the President of
If the President of the United the United States.
transcripts with Henry States chose to share those
But I wasn't supposed to do that Kissinger, that was his choice.
That was really how that worked. on my own."
transcripts. It wasn't just with those
NSA documents over to the Oval So he sent the courier with the
Nixon read them, appreciated Office.
back to the Pentagon, without thHenry Kissinger seeing them.m
I couldn't believe, after all these years, they had never
talked about this.
said anything to me about it. IIt's extraordinary to me.el
So trying to make sense of this,
the only man who understands I thought, I've got to talk to
Eagleburger. both these men, Larry
both of their faults, etc., He loves band foibles. but knows
I called Secretary Eagleburger
what I've got. and I said, you know, this is
And he said of course it's true. And he just started laughing.
And he said, don't you And I said why.
of controlling Henry. He was always trying to bottle
him up. So it was his way of checking up
on whether Dr. Kissinger was
the negotiations with the North Vietnamese, by reading what he
was telling them. I said, well, what about if
there was this text anticipating
how far they could go, that's instructipretty vital.ext time,
He said of course it was. And I'm sure Nixon said it to
Kissinger, but he made it appear
North Vietnamese were going to as if he understood what the
probably think, in retrospect, do, which made Kissinger
is a brilliant man. asThis president, whatever yous
think of him, he sometimes
Vietnamese were going to do, and anticipated what the North
end. gave me instructions toward that
surprise to me after all these So this was pretty much a
Shall I end there? years of studying this.
other stories. All right, yeah, there were many
surprise to me, I'm an Let me just close by saying the
everything I wrote before was invskewering people.er,
It was afflicting the comfortable.
With Jack Anderson. It was bringing down cabinet
secretaries.
You know, writing stories about the president of Mexico stealing
money.
was my job. AAnd when I came across Mel'st
story, I thought, you know, this
who in the middle of a morass, time, I'm going to write a man,
right thing, and still looks maintained honor and did the
with all that we understand 40 pretty good, even in hindsight,
Thank you very much. years later.
Okay, well I want us to have ( applause )
some discussion with the time to ask questions and have
We are at 8:30 already, but I think we can go another 15
minutes or so.
So I'm not going to say Isanything.y?
I'll just play traffic cop. What I think we've had here are
really extraordinary
War, on Mel Laird's career as a whole, and on working with Mel
Laird and trying to, I think, as
to understand an honorable man they all so well put it, trying
difficulty and despair in some operating in a morass of
So I think we should open this ways.
comments. up for quMr. Engel.houghts,
At least get my name right! Englerre.
I'm sorry.
good things about Secretary >> We've heLaird.lot of very
What does he regret from his
One of the great suggestions time as secretary of defense?
reviewed the manuscript and said made by Jeremi Suri, when he
following areas, was you need to this needs improvement in the
Mel Laird feels from that time put in there some of the regrets
He fussed over that for a month, period.
anything. aAnd the thing that he came uph
with in the end, was not as secretary, but it was accepting
the position of Domestic
June 1973, in the middle of Counselor iWatergate.e House in
It cost him a great deal. He was fine when he left as
Secretary of Defense, but going in to work for President Nixon
at that time, I mean, it did
We can talk about that. But I could not get any regrets
out of him, nor could I say.
There were a number of mistakes I mean, hthat he made.rfect man.
But I'm not an historian. And it was really kind of them
to call me a scholar. And perhaps when you work on a
book for ten or 12 years, it may
thesis or doctorate. be the equivalent of a master's
But they're more trained in these kind of things than I am.
But nevertheless, as an investigative reporter, when I
look at the overall, and when I understand the context of the
times, and who he was dealing with, which Dr. Herring really
explained, especially the differences in the Pentagon,
that he was able to get the Joint Chiefs to go along with
all this. I'm sorry to be so long, but
what I haven't explained is,
and certainly Kissinger, without Nixon came into the White House,
And certainly, few friends in many frienthe media.tol hill.
That's where Mel's power derived
And they knew they couldn't do from.
him. anything in this area without
the end of four years, that he Mel Laird had this scorecard, at
hill. He had more friends in bothl
parties than Nixon or Kissinger.
had learned, and developed some By a csignificant friends,inger
particularly in the media.
they couldn't work around him. But in those first couple years,
regretted. So there really was nothing he
things being kept secret that he All the regrets he had was
secret. ha>> Great, next question.pt
Mr. Currance. >> You got my name right.
Yeah, I got your name.
about the civil rights >> What did Mel Laird think
breaking into people's places, violations, wiretapping,
And what does he think about and stuff like that.
arguably civil rights what's hapviolations?t now, with
You want me to take that? >> I think you should.
Outrage.
Alexander Haig. I meaHe felt Haig was moreh with
responsible than Kissinger on the wiretapping of aids in the
White House.
of you who remember the time It got worse than that for those
He had an admiral, Tom Moore, who really couldn't be trusted a
whole lot.
Kind of forced to put him in the A clever man.
had a spy ring operating in the White House, stealing documents
from Kissinger's briefcase. A Navy yeoman, Radford, who was
working in that position. They decided not to make it
public, including Mel, because
Chiefs were spying on the White iHouse, it might be like Sevennt
Days in May.
But there were so many things Iduring that time that outraged.
him that, yes, he was always for
always against anything illegal. openness in government, and
When did he find out about it >> Did hepersonally?ont Nixon?
He didn't confront on it
If I may jump to another story personally.
question. When I was almost done with the
book, I came to the period of Domestic Counselor.
And I thought, and re-thought,
and overseeing this project, since he was helping me a lot
Marshfield Clinic, it's almost giving great support for the
He's out of the White House. done.
secretary's office. We're done with this book.
Then I hit that Domestic
extraordinary things, especially Counselor period and came across
Mel. as I developed it and talked to
for you. And let me just set the scene
go, where his wife and mother have said, we don't trust Nixon,
you shouldn't even have been
alienates, to a degree, the two women he loves most, to go in.
Because people on capitol hill
others have resigned, all Nixon can think about is Watergate.
You've got to go in and pass the
So he was definitely in the basement, he admitted, he and
Bryce Harlowe, using the auto pen, many times without Nixon's
approval, just to sign
along. legislation, just to move things
accept this position unless you Beyeball Richard Nixon and ask't
him, did you have anything to do
So he went to see Nixon at Camp David, his friend, and said, did
you have anything to do with it.
Bush, he said, none of us asked. When I talked to senior George
None of us asked Nixon directly. I was head of the RNC.
And Nixon lied to him. But he did.
late June, Fred, Nixon's lawyer. Now, three weeks into it, in
in the room, Reid understands And thow amazing this was.awyers
He would've been disbarred
Fred, who had been general for this.
Mel had placed over at the White counsel in the Pentagon, whom
into coming to the White House House, and who had talked Mel
secretly meets with Mel and says, I've been the first person
to listen to the tapes. There are tapes that exist.
Nixon is guilty.
Well, at that point, you're an My client is guilty.
Do you stay or do you go? Well, he called Bryce Harlowe
and said I'm going. I can't tell you why.
I can't stay in this
I can't stay here, and basically administration.
Everybody came to him from go down the tubes.
They had this great rousing group that came to him and said
you've got to stay. Well, so he agreed to stay.
But he buttonholed Nixon. He knew he always took this walk
between the White House and the Executive Office Building
hideaway. Within a couple days of Fred
telling him, who he couldn't
President Nixon, you lied to me. quote, he said I understand
the Watergate cover up. You wAnd I'm sick about it.d in
And I can't believe you'd do
Nixon said nothing. thOne sentence.d.
Are you going to stay?
But are you going to resign. No denial.
But he worked behind the scenes. Well, he decided not to resign.
Nixon. And what he did, undid Richard
how successful he was. And that's been known till now,
necessarily. Not that he intended to,
when Spiro Agnew went out. He put Gerald Ford in there
himself. And he could have had it
believe. He could've been president, I
capitol hill were willing to put People talking about it on
He said absolutely not. He said Ford's name goes.
He becomes president. Once you have Ford there, you
can impeach Richard Nixon.
no vice president. If Spiro Agnew's gone, you have
at the time the country could This was anot afford.onal crisis
Once you have this wonderful man
move next. in as Vice President, you could
made Leon the special The next prosecutor.d, was he
He and Bill Archer talked Leon
yes. into it, got everybody to say
Now you've put in the second man Got Nixon to say yes.
Then the last peg that dropped that's going to do Nixon in.
Watergate Committee that had was the Chief Council of the
200 applications, but there was one man Mel Laird wanted there.
A Wisconsinite. A trusted, amazing Wisconsinite,
Frank, who had been a civil rights champion during the
Kennedy and Johnson administrations, amazingly
courageous down in the middle of
African Americans. hostile people, protecting
him. A book should be written about
They knew he'd be impartial. But everybody respected him.
tells him to appoint him. He does the next day, and quotes
from, the support, the only person he says supported it is a
republican, White House Domestic
Well, that means you've appointed an impartial person.
The three were in place.
it was inevitable Nixon would Because they ago.had integrity,
So that was his reaction, to do the right thing.
I think this is why you're
book. Only an investigative reporter
can untangle that mess. No historian could do that.
George, I wanted to ask you a question while we have you here.
Why is it that, according to
Atta has written so well, why is what we've heard and what Van
who had nowhere near the policy experience, or for that matter,
the intellectual capital like someone like Robert Macnamara,
why did he understand so much when Macnamara understood so
little? >> I'm guessing it's
understanding people and having a feel for what's going on in
the country.
knowledgeable about this. As I was looking at it, it's
just a sense of a real feeling
which Nixon was a clever of the pulse of the country,
Kissinger, I think never really politichad this.ny ways.
In fact, he thought everything
country was wrong, and that was happening in the
Laird seemed to have seen conspithrough it.l this.
There were real problems with troop withdrawals, because as
Kissinger pointed out, we were
We're not getting anything for withdrawing unilaterally.
In a military sense, as we're pulling out, our military
position is going to weaken.
of those. But Laird saw it had to be done,
and insisted it be done, and did
a typically Lairdian way at that it in, I suppose you could say,
Although Clifford saw the same time.
Clifford was a domestic counselor, and more than foreign
policy expert.
actually being an elected >politician in that position.n
He was the first one. Right, most often, those were
either defense experts, or
out, and corporate executives. patronage people, as you pointed
is the first. SAnd Sam Rayburn's criticism of
all the people around Johnson was that they were smart, but
had never been elected county sheriff, right?
I mean, Laird had been elected
I think we have time for one county sheriff, and much more.
Mary. >> The time that Laird was
serving, and then bringing
cared about the people who had troops home, is that he also
And he offered, through a plan fled the country.
the soldiers, well, they weren't with Bob, a limited amnesty to
dodgers. soldiers, they were draft
And if they came back and asked for forgiveness, they could
resume their place in society.
point. >> Right, I think that's a great
else? You and Mary have known Laird
probably longer than most everyone in this room.
I've said to many people, after being in 31 campaigns, 85%
of what I know, he taught me. He was not a scholar, but he
sure was a teacher. >> I think that's probably a
good note for us to close on. Dale will be signing books just
downstairs in the front.
and all kinds of things of that He will takesort.tic and cash,
I encourage you all to read the book.
Thank you very much for coming. ( applause )