>> TUESDAY'S PROTESTS IN MADISON
IS SPARKING A DEEPER DEBATE
ABOUT HOW FAR IS TOO FAR.
DR. SAMI SCHALK IS AN ASSOCIATE
PROFESSOR IN THE DEPARTMENT OF
GENDER AND WOMEN'S STUDIES AT
THE UW-MADISON.
HER SPECIALTY IS THE
INTERSECTION OF RACE, GENDER AND
DISABILITY.
SHE TALKED TO MARISA WOJCIK THIS
WEEK.
AS AN ACTIVIST HERSELF, SHE ALSO
SPOKE TO WHAT LIKELY SPARKED
THEM.
>> IN RESPONSE TO THE PROTEST
LAST NIGHT AT THE CAPITOL YOU
TWEETED THIS MORNING PEOPLE IN
MADISON CLUTCHING THEIR PEARLS
AS IF FOLKS HAVEN'T BEEN
PROTESTING AND MARCHING IN THE
STREETS SHOUTING "NO JUSTICE, NO
PEACE."
YOU DON'T SEEM SURPRISED BY THE
EVENTS LAST NIGHT, AND YOU SPOKE
TO THIS A BIT.
WHAT DO YOU KIND OF EXPECT GOING
FORWARD?
>> YEAH.
SO, I MEAN, I ANTICIPATE THAT
THERE WILL BE A WAVE OF
REPRESSION, SO I ANTICIPATE --
GOVERNOR EVERS ALREADY SAID THAT
HE'S PREPARED TO PUT OUT THE
NATIONAL GUARD.
ANYTIME THE STATE KIND OF TRIES
TO PUSH BACK, PEOPLE ARE GOING
TO PUSH BACK MORE.
SO RATHER THAN SAYING WE HEAR
YOU AND WE'RE GOING TO DO
SOMETHING TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEM
THAT YOU ARE SO UPSET ABOUT,
THAT YOU HAVE BEEN SO HARMED BY,
INSTEAD THERE'S THIS MASS
SUPPRESSION.
AND WHENEVER THAT HAPPENS,
PEOPLE ARE GOING TO ACT OUT EVEN
MORE.
WHEN YOU PUT MORE VIOLENCE ON
THE PEOPLE WHO ARE UPSET ABOUT
VIOLENCE, YOU'RE GOING TO GET
VIOLENCE BACK.
AND I DON'T PERSONALLY BELIEVE
THAT PROPERTY DESTRUCTION IS
VIOLENCE.
I THINK THAT IT IS A WAY THAT
PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN
DISEMPOWERED AND HAVE NO OTHER
WAY TO EXPRESS THEIR POWER OTHER
THAN TO TEAR SOMETHING DOWN
EXPRESS THEIR POWER.
RIGHT, THERE ARE THINGS THAT THE
MAYOR AND THE GOVERNOR COULD BE
DOING, BUT INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE,
THESE LIKE 17 TO 25-YEAR-OLDS
FOLKS OUT IN THE STREETS, WHAT
POWER DO THEY HAVE BESIDES TO
STREAM THE STREETS AND PULL DOWN
A STATUE TO SAY WE'RE HERE AND
YOU NEED TO LISTEN TO US.
SO I ANTICIPATE THAT THAT'S
GOING TO KEEP HAPPENING UNTIL
THINGS SHIFT IN TERMS OF THE WAY
THAT THE CITY RESPONDS AND THE
CITY HAS REALLY BEEN RESPONDING
WITH THESE PLACATING MEASURES
AND THEN GOING BEHIND OUR BACK.
THAT VIDEO THAT CAME OUT OF THE
MAYOR SPEAKING TO THE POLICE, NO
ONE TRUSTS HER NOW.
NO ONE BELIEVES SHE'S ON OUR
SIDE IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER.
AND, SO, YEAH, THE TRUST HAS
REALLY BEEN BROKEN BETWEEN FOLKS
WHO REALLY WANTED TO BELIEVE IN
THE LIBERAL PROGRESSIVE ETHOS OF
MADISON THAT REALLY THINKS OF
ITSELF AS THIS SPECIAL LITTLE
GEM, SO DIFFERENT THAN THE REST
OF WISCONSIN.
AND WE SEE THAT IT'S ALL JUST A
FACADE.
SO FOLKS ARE REALLY FED UP.
SO YEAH.
I ANTICIPATE THAT WHAT WE SAW
LAST NIGHT IS NOT THE END OF
THAT.
AND I THINK THAT THERE WILL BE
MORE PUSHBACK FROM THE POLICE
AND FROM THE NATIONAL GUARD.
I ANTICIPATE THERE WILL PROBABLY
BE GASSING OCCURRING AGAIN AND
RUBBER BULLETS, BECAUSE THIS IS
THE WAY THEY RESPOND TO PEOPLE
EXERCISING THE LITTLE BIT OF
POWER THAT THEY HAVE.
>> YOU ARE HOPING FOR REAL,
SUBSTANTIVE, LONG-TERM CHANGE AS
AN OUTCOME OF ALL OF THIS.
WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE
SPECIFICALLY TO YOU?
>> YEP.
THAT LOOKS LIKE GETTING COPS OUT
OF SCHOOLS IMMEDIATELY.
THAT'S AN IMMEDIATE THING THAT
WE CAN DO.
IT'S SUMMER.
BEFORE THE SCHOOL YEAR STARTS,
WE FIND NO COPS, ABSOLUTELY NO
COPS IN SCHOOLS.
IT MEANS DEFUNDING THE POLICE IN
THIS CITY AND REDIRECTING THOSE
RESOURCES TO OTHER AREAS TO
PROVIDE THE KINDS OF SUPPORT
THAT WE NEED.
WE UNDERSTAND IN THE MOVEMENT
THAT SOME OF THE JOBS THAT COPS
DO ARE NECESSARY, RIGHT?
LIKE WE NEED PEOPLE WHO CAN
BLOCK TRAFFIC SOMETIMES WHEN
THINGS ARE HAPPENING.
THAT DOESN'T NEED TO BE A POLICE
OFFICER WITH A GUN.
THERE'S NO REASON FOR IT.
WE'RE DOING IT OURSELVES WITH
OUR CARS.
IT'S FINE.
RIGHT?
SO WE UNDERSTAND THAT THOSE
RESOURCES, SOME OF THOSE
RESOURCES NEED TO BE REDIRECTED
INTO SAFETY AND TO MAKING SURE
THAT THERE ARE THINGS TO HELP
FOLKS WHO ARE HAVING MENTAL
HEALTH CRISES.
ALL OF THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN, BUT
IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE POLICING
WITH GUNS AND THEY HAVE WAY TOO
MUCH POWER AND CONTROL.
THERE NEEDS TO BE A DEFUNDING OF
POLICE AND REDIRECTING THOSE
RESOURCES INTO THE SPACES WE
ACTUALLY NEED TO MAKE THIS CITY
SAFE AND USABLE FOR A WHOLE LOT
OF FOLKS.
SO THOSE ARE THE MAIN THINGS.
AND THEN COMMUNITY CONTROL.
THAT EVEN WHEN WE DEVELOP THOSE
SAFETY COMMITTEES TO CREATE
SAFETY, IT HAS TO BE UNDER
COMMUNITY CONTROL, MEANING THAT
INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE, NOT PAID
MEMBERS WHO ARE LIKE WORKING FOR
THE STATE, BUT INDIVIDUAL
MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY ARE
ABLE TO SAY WE FIRE YOU OR WE
REPRIMAND YOU OR WHATEVER, THAT
THEY HAVE TO BE ACCOUNTABLE TO
THE COMMUNITY, NOT TO
THEMSELVES.
WITH THE POLICE UNION, THE ONLY
PEOPLE THAT CAN REPRIMAND POLICE
ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE POLICE.
THAT MAKES NO SENSE, MAKES NO
SENSE FOR THEM TO BE THE ONES
THAT ARE SO-CALLED KEEPING
THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE.
THIS IS NO WAY TO HOLD PEOPLE
ACCOUNTABLE WHEN THEY'RE JUST
DOING IT WITHIN A GROUP.
SO THERE NEEDS TO BE COMMUNITY
CONTROL OF POLICE.
THEY NEED TO BE OUT OF SCHOOLS.
AND THEY NEED TO BE DEFUNDED.
THAT'S OUR FIRST KIND OF MAJOR
THING.
BUT OF COURSE THERE ARE ALL
KINDS OF OTHER THINGS THAT WE
WOULD LIKE TO SEE TO MAKE SURE
THAT WE LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE
PEOPLE, ALL PEOPLE, INCLUDING
MIGHT WHITE FOLKS, INCLUDING
STRAIGHT FOLKS LIKE Y'ALL, WE
WANT Y'ALL TO BE OKAY, TOO.
BUT IN ORDER FOR THAT TO HAPPEN,
WE HAVE TO BE OKAY.
THAT'S WHY WE STRESS FOLKS WHO
ARE MOST MARGINALIZED AND
OPPRESSED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT