THERE.
THANKS VERY MUCH.
>> YOU'RE WELCOME.
>> OUR NEXT GUEST IS NATIONALLY
RECOGNIZED IN THE AREA OF POLICE
REFORM.
NOBLE WRAI IS THE FORMER CHIEF
OF POLICE IN MADISON.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING
US.
>> THANK YOU.
>> SO AS AN ECTS AN EXPERT IN POLICE
PRACTICES AND REFORM, WHEN YOU
SAW THE IMAGES OF WHAT HAPPENED
TO GEORGE FLOYD, WHAT WENT
THROUGH YOUR HEAD?
>> FIRST OF ALL, JUST LIKE MANY
AMERICANS, IT WAS JUST HORRIFIC
TO SEE THAT JUST EMOTIONAL --
IT'S JUST A LOT OF EMOTIONS
GOING THROUGH MY HEAD.
I FEEL IT FROM A COMMUNITY
MEMBER, AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN MALE
OR SOMEONE THAT'S BEEN IN
POLICING FOR NOW OVER 30 YEARS,
REALLY.
AND, YOU KNOW, I FELT FOR THE
FAMILY.
IT WAS JUST A TERRIBLE, JUST A
TERRIBLE SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES.
>> SO PUTTING EVEN A FINER POINT
ON THAT, HOW WELL DO YOU
UNDERSTAND THE ANGER OF
PROTESTERS MARCHING IN
SOLIDARITY OVER RACISM AND WHITE
SUPREMACY AS THEY MOURN THE
DEATH OF A BLACK MAN?
>> I UNDERSTAND IT FROM
DIFFERENT ANGLES.
I CAME UP IN MILWAUKEE.
MY PARENTS WERE INVOLVED WITH
FATHER GROPPI AND THE CIVIL
RIGHTS MOVEMENT.
THAT RINGS VERY STRONG FOR ME.
AS A POLICE OFFICER WHO HAS
ADVOCATED FOR POLICE BUT ALSO
POLICE REFORM, IT HIT ME HARD
BECAUSE ALL OF THOSE GAINS WE
THOUGHT THAT WE WERE MAKING OVER
THE YEARS, YOU KNOW, AND
RECOGNIZING THAT TRUST CAN BE
LOST IN JUST ONE INSTANT, JUST
ONE INSTANT, SO THAT WAS VERY
DIFFICULT.
BUT UNDERSTANDING THAT TALKING
TO COMMUNITY MEMBERS BOTH HERE
IN MADISON AND ACROSS THE
NATION, THIS IS A REAL ISSUE.
IT'S BEEN A REAL ISSUE.
AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I
THINK WE MISTAKE, WE DO BY
MISTAKE IN OUR PROFESSION, IS
THAT IF THERE IS AN ABSENCE OF
TENSION OR IF PEOPLE ARE NOT
COMPLAINING TO LAW ENFORCEMENT,
IT SENDS A SIGNAL THAT THINGS
ARE OKAY.
BUT IN REALITY, THIS IS A
PERFECT EXAMPLE THAT THINGS ARE
NOT OKAY.
THE TENSION WAS AWFUL.
THE FRUSTRATION, THE DECADES OF
FRUSTRATION WAS OUT THERE.
AND THEN THIS WAS THE MATCH THAT
REALLY HIT AT THE CORE OF SO
MANY PEOPLE.
ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS I'D LIKE
TO SAY, FREDERICA, THIS IS
DIFFERENT.
I'VE BEEN AT A LOT OF PROTESTS.
MADISON IS THE STATE CAPITAL.
THIS IS NOT A PROTEST.
THIS IS A MOVEMENT.
AND A MOVEMENT HAPPENS WHEN THE
PEOPLE THAT ARE DIRECTLY
IMPACTED BY A PARTICULAR ISSUE,
THEY'RE NOT THE ONLY ONES
IMPACTED.
THIS HAS GONE BEYOND
AFRICAN-AMERICANS.
THIS IS WORLDWIDE.
THE OTHER THING IN A MOVEMENT IS
WHEN YOU SEE A SHIFT IN STATUS
QUO, WHAT I'M HEARING IS PEOPLE
ARE ASKING FOR SOMETHING
DIFFERENT.
THEY'RE SAYING WE WANT A
RESPONSE TO POLICE MISCONDUCT TO
HAPPEN IN A MORE RAPID FASHION.
WE WANT POLICE OFFICERS THAT ARE
ENGAGED IN SIMILAR CONDUCT TO BE
TREATED JUST LIKE AN AVERAGE
CITIZEN WOULD BE TREATED.
AND IT SHOULD BE.
IF WE'RE THE GUARDIANS OF
DEMOCRACY, WE SHOULD BE HELD TO
A HIGHER STANDARD.
>> DO YOU THINK THOSE CALLS WILL
BE DIFFERENT THIS TIME?
WILL THIS BE THE SITUATION THAT
CAUSES CHANGE?
>> I HOPE SO.
I HOPE THAT THE CHANGE THAT
TAKES PLACE, THE REFORM THAT
TAKES PLACE, GOES BEYOND THE
MOMENT.
AND AS I ALLUDED TO EARLIER, WE
GET LULLED INTO THINKING JUST
BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE NOT OUT THERE
PROTESTING THAT THERE'S NOT AN
ISSUE.
BECAUSE THERE ARE CLEAR ISSUES
OF REFORM THAT NEED TO TAKE
PLACE IN THIS PROFESSION.
>> LIKE?
>> LIKE I THINK, YOU KNOW, AREAS
-- AREAS FOR -- I'LL GIVE YOU AN
EXAMPLE.
I THINK LAW ENFORCEMENT NEEDS TO
PROVIDE DISCIPLINARY RECORDS TO
THE PUBLIC.
IT NEEDS TO BE TRANSPARENT.
NEEDS TO BE DONE IN A WAY WHERE
HUMAN RESOURCE ISSUES ARE
PROTECTED WITHIN A DEPARTMENT.
BUT I THINK OVER TIME PEOPLE
NEED TO KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING ON
A DISCIPLINARY STANDPOINT.
I THINK GRAND VERSUS CONNOR, THE
LANDMARK SUPREME COURT DECISION
THAT TOOK PLACE IN THE '80s
REGARDING USE OF FORCE, I THINK
THOSE THINGS NEED TO BE LOOKED
AT.
I'LL GIVE YOU JUST DRILLING DOWN
INTO THAT A BIT MORE.
THERE'S A PROPOSAL AT THE STATE
LEVEL AND THAT PROPOSAL IS TO
LOOK AT HOW DO WE FOCUS IN ON
THE MINIMAL AMOUNT OF FORCE
NECESSARY IN A USE OF FORCE
SITUATION.
CALIFORNIA HAS PASSED
LEGISLATION THAT IS SIMILAR TO
THAT.
WHAT GRAND VERSUS CONNER DID,
WHICH THERE ARE ASPECTS OF IT I
REALLY LIKE, BUT IT MOVED US
AWAY FROM FOCUSING IN ON THE
MINIMUM AMOUNT OF FORCE, WHICH I
THINK HAS MORE OF A MORAL
OBJECTIVE IN THE OPERATIONS OF
POLICE WHEN THEY'RE DEALING WITH
THE USE OF FORCE.
THAT IS ALWAYS -- WHEN I CAME
ON, THAT WAS ALWAYS IN THE BACK
OF MY MIND.
USE THE MINIMUM AMOUNT OF FORCE
NECESSARY WHEN YOU'RE ENGAGED IN
THAT SITUATION.
I THINK WE LOST THAT UNDER THE
OBJECTIVELY REASONABLE STANDARD
THAT CAME OUT OF THE GRAND
VERSUS CONNER DECISION.
>> AND SO DO YOU SUPPORT THE
PROPOSAL THAT EXISTS AT THE
STATE, A BILL BY DEMOCRATS THAT
DEALS WITH USE OF FORCE?
DO YOU SUPPORT THAT PROVISION?
>> I HAVE NOT SEEN THE BILL, SO
I'M ALWAYS RELUCTANT TO SAY THAT
I SUPPORT IT IN ITS ENTIRETY
UNTIL I SEE IT.
I HAVE JUST HEARD ABOUT IT.
AND FROM WHAT I'VE HEARD, I
THINK IT'S GOING IN THE RIGHT
DIRECTION.
IT'S LIKE TO SEE THE
LEGISLATION.
BUT I KNOW THAT I WAS TRACKING
CALIFORNIA'S LEGISLATION ON IT,
AND I THINK THEY'RE GOING IN THE
RIGHT DIRECTION WITH IT.
>> THE LEGISLATION SEEMS FAIRLY
BRIEF.
IT BASICALLY SAYS THAT THE
PRIMARY DUTY OF OFFICERS IS TO
PRESERVE THE LIFE OF ALL PEOPLE
AND USE DEADLY FORCE AS A LAST
RESORT.
THERE ARE SOME OTHER PROVISIONS,
BUT THOSE ARE THE TWO MAIN
PRONGS.
>> I THINK THAT'S GOING IN THE
RIGHT DIRECTION.
AGAIN, I FOLLOWED THE CALIFORNIA
LEGISLATION AND THEY HAD TO WORK
THAT THROUGH, THE LANGUAGE, SO
THAT IT MET THE NEEDS.
BUT WHAT IT COMES DOWN TO, ONE
OF THE THINGS THAT WE HAVE LOST
AS IT RELATES TO USE OF FORCE IN
POLICING, IS LANGUAGE,
STATUTORILY LANGUAGE, SUPREME
COURT LANGUAGE, THAT REINFORCES
THE MORALITY, THE ETHICS, THE
HUMANITY OF POLICING.
AND I THINK THAT LEGISLATION
THAT'S BEING PROPOSED IS TRYING
TO GET AT THAT.
>> VERY BRIEFLY, WHAT LEARNED
WISDOM WOULD YOU IMPART ON
CURRENT POLICE OFFICERS?
>> I THINK POLICING HAS REALLY
EVOLVED.
I THINK WE'VE MADE GREAT
STRIDES.
BUT THE LEARNED WISDOM IS THAT
IT'S CONSTANT.
WE LOSE SOMETIMES BECAUSE WE GET
CAUGHT UP IN THE DAY-TO-DAY PUSH
OF THINGS.
I MEAN, WE'RE OUT THERE FIGHTING
FIRES.
IT IS A DIFFICULT JOB.
BUT THE THINGS THAT ARE
IMPORTANT ABOUT OUR PROFESSION,
BUILDING TRUST, CONNECTING WITH
PEOPLE, PROCEDURAL JUSTICE, YOU
KNOW, THE COMPETENCY AND THE
CHARACTER THAT IT TAKES TO DO
THIS JOB, THE GUARDIANSHIP WHICH
WE'RE ENTRUSTED WITH, THAT TAKES
WORK AND IT'S EVERY DAY AND IT'S
HARD TO DO.
AND SO THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE
STILL HAVE TO EMPHASIZE GHVMENT
WE LEAVE IT THERE.