9BHC0000HD_Behind_the_Canvas_Transcript

[lively instrumental music]

- The following program is a co-production of the Chazen Museum of Art and University Communications at University of Wisconsin-Madison.

[dramatic violin music]

- Andrea Selbig: Through here.

- Russell Panczenko: All right.

- Selbig: Into the lobby. This is a lot of effort.

- Panczenko: So they're going up in this slot?

- Yes.

- That's right.

- Selbig: This is a very big undertaking.

Then, they'll start lifting. But I think the result is going to be fantastic.

- All right. So, okay. So, let me just make sure I understand this.

- Selbig: Actually, it is four large pieces, but the largest component is 27 feet long.

- [Panczenco whistles "phew"] Okay.

- Our director, Russell Panczenko, has a really wonderful vision.

- Oh, you're going that way? [whistles]

- Selbig: And I think it's really wonderful that he and Jim Dine are working together to bring this into the gallery.

- I can see that you've got. I see what you're doing.

- Selbig: We discussed removing entire windows.

- Panczenko: So, there, there, and there.

- We discussed cranes and lifts. This is sort of kind of like doing Y-turn. In the end, we found a way that we could rig it up a stairway and then we had to figure out exactly how we could swing a 27-foot crate around various corners and through hallways so that we could actually get it into this particular gallery.

- All right, it sounds easy enough. 
[laughing]

[lively orchestra music]

- Panczenko: You know, the way this project came about is Jim Dine had done a series of wonderful drawings based on the ancient Greek and Roman sculptures at the Glyptothek in Munich. As we were walking through the gallery and I thought to duplicate a relief in this room, in a sense almost make it a temple of ancient art, which holds our ancient art collection. And then, that space which has been empty just seemed as a perfect place to do a relief based on his drawings. It was a lovely idea, you know, which I jumped into with great enthusiasm. He responded with enthusiasm.

- It was created just for the Chazen Museum of Art. And the way it will match up with these wonderful ancient works in this gallery, I think it'll just be really memorable piece that I think that visitors will cherish for years.

- People have looked to Classical Antiquity and taken inspiration from it. And so what intrigues me here is here's Jim Dine, a man, really one of the top American artists of his day, taking inspiration from antiquity and then we're bringing that inspiration back and combining it with the source of inspiration. All right, we're off and running. Well, baby steps. 
[laughing]
 
[police sirens "pin pon, pin pon"]

Panczenko: We're in Paris, France.

And the reason we're in Paris is Jim Dine has a studio in Paris. And the work is so large that none of his other studios can deal with it.

[camera shutter clicks]

Yeah. Coming to Europe, especially a place like Paris, Germany, Spain, 
[camera shutter double-clicks] these have been part of his life and his creativity.

The atmosphere of the city is very important to him, it's very much become part of him and part of his experience.

Let's face it: this man is an icon of American art and he has been for several decades and suddenly to have access to Jim Dine and have the opportunity to bring a major, major piece that fits into an intellectual concept to our campus and have it on the campus for the future, that's quite a coup for us.

So, my job as a museum director is "We want it. We believe in it. I think this is important. How do I make it happen?" And so, that's what we set off to do.

- Jim Dine: The fourth one I'm about to begin. And, Russell, if you want to, you can come up with me.

But I'm going to start and we see what happens. This morning, I'm going to draw from one of the first Classical figures I ever did.

- Panczenko: Given the scale of the commission, the importance of the commission.

- Dine: Like I said, this is just the beginning.

- You don't just say, "Well, okay, surprise me. Let it show up in Madison when you're done."

Oh, yeah. So, I have to come up periodically and take a look and check out where we are, how it's progressing. And, of course, Dine himself wants that response.

- You know, it's all about relating to the next thing I do, you know. So, I'm trying to get this in so I can do another one that speaks to that and also this that will speak to that across the room. So, if you realize now, I mean even though they're not put together, we're seeing what we're going to have.

- Panczenko: I can just imagine when we're finally brought together. That is really going to be a powerful, powerful...

- I hope so.

- Panczenko: I have no doubt, Jim. I'm thrilled with this.

- Dine: The continual drawing... I mean, my whole life has been based on drawing. And I feel that it's the clearest way to speak, drawing.

- Panczenko: And that's charcoal that you're using?

- I'm using charcoal over pastel right now.

- Panczenko: Right.

- After you leave, it will probably change as they always do. And I might introduce paint, also. Some house paint.

- You know, when I think of Classical Antiquity, I think of very still images, very, you know, quiet museums, people not speaking, everything having its place and standing very still, you know, sort of from the past. But this is from the past, but, boy, this is going to explode when it's together. It's almost like, you know, like atomic fusion. Suddenly, the dynamism and the activity is just going to increase. 

[soft instrumental music]

- Dine: It's like a dream. It's like a dream of the antique.

- Panczenko: It's like a dream in that it's moving.

- It's moving.

- You're constantly moving through.

- I agree.

- You can't stop and stay still.

- I love that about that.

- Me too, me too. I wanted the drawing to be right, but I also wanted a kind of accuracy that I don't care about here. I wanted this to be more of a riff on the antique rather than a record of it. There's enough records of it.

I could go on for years with this. I really could.

- Well, you know, there's more walls in the same gallery. 
[chuckling]

- That's true.

- You know, one form of art is the traditional art forms that we know, you know, paintings on canvas, sculpture, we're all used to that. But a lot of artists have been getting into installations and they've been doing it for centuries. I mean, you look at the Sistine Chapel: yeah, it's a painting, but look, there's a ceiling! The artists who arrive, who achieve are always looking to do something bigger, more exciting, more intricate to challenge themselves.

- And I want to do things in a museum context but add a little life to that context.

- We had Gronk! who came and gave him the entire fourth floor. There was an experience because the first day, he came in with a bucket of paint and faced the wall. And he wanted audience right there. 
[laughing]

So, his performing, his doing the art on the wall was part of the visitors' experience.

And not only that, but he engaged visitors, he talked to them and school kids were really enthusiastic because he talked to a school kid and, you know, explained what he was doing and he'd get them excited.

- And so, each space in unique, each space is completely different than the other.

- Our primary purpose as a university museum is to educate people about art. And for us to get into areas that are outside of masterpieces into areas of process, which are very much being explored by contemporary artists today was an important, very important thing to do.

- So, this kind of installation, this kind of challenge, this kind of audience interaction, interaction between what the artist makes and the space that it's in, yeah, it's exciting and it's very much part of the art world.

- This is thicker than I thought it would be. My name is Daniel Clarke. I work for Jim in Paris.

- And then, you get your bar in there. I'm Jason Treffry. I work for Jim in Walla Walla, Washington.

- So, we're shifting all the crates up this day.

- Daniel Clarke: And this is the second meeting that we're having here in the museum just to really, I guess, dot the i's and cross the t's.

- Well, we're here today because we're having preliminary meetings about how to attach the panels to the ceiling in here and the hardware that we'll need to go into the plaster. And so, we're going to meet with the engineers here today.

- That's the reason we're going to put all the pressure right on the channel.

- That makes sense.

Also, the crew, who will assist with lifting the works up in place on an angle here? It's a lot of people to coordinate, be on the same page.

- Eli Reynolds: It's really interesting to see and learn, you know, what goes into creating this and that they're actually mocking it up in France and making sure all the seams line up perfectly and, well, it's not just a piece of canvas on metal backing.

- You could put a strap around it.

- We're very grateful for the opportunity to be trusted and to assist the museum with everything that they have going on and making sure that things aren't overlooked and trying to have a good final product.

- Well, you know, people keep asking me where is the painting right now? And, you know, about two weeks ago, I got a picture from Jim Dine's assistant showing a crate being lifted out of the building and suddenly, you see two or three people lifting it, putting it into a crate, four or five people manhandling this crate into a lorry. And, in fact, there's one of the photographs where they've dragged the crate across the street. And they've literally blocked off the entire street in Paris. So, you look at that and it brings home the scale of it.

- I really fell in love with this piece. And I want to tell you, I am so proud of it and I wasn't for-- It took me a year-and-a-half to make it. And I wasn't. I was stymied a lot of the time and it was very hard going because it's a lot of real estate, but it is exactly what I want now. And I'm just delighted. I can't, I didn't want to let it out in the studio. And the next time I see it, it will be up.

- Panczenko: Always when you bring in an artist and you do some kind of a commission, you're taking a chance. So, what you do is you cover yourself as best you can by 'who do you pick?', 'what kind of discussions do you have?', and then 'can you bring yourself around to trust?' And if you can, then get out of the way. It's up to the artist.
 
[Panczenko whispering to Dine] Get out of your way.

- Dine: But his respect for me and for his understanding, what I needed and the kind of privacy I needed and the time I needed is just been great, just been fantastic and it's made all the difference to me. I could relax about it and be tense about my work and not about Russell breathing down my neck. I've never heard a peep.

No, he's great.

- Yes, we've gotten the expertise. We've gotten the measurements and all the information back and forth across the Atlantic but you still hold your breath.
[diesel engine purrs]

Well, they're here.

Couple of years in the making, you know.

- Treffry: Move back, everybody.

- Panczenko: Wow, this is amazing. Having seen this in Paris and now here it is on this side of the ocean, it's, like, fantastic.

You can only ship things up to 22 feet long air freight. But the paintings are too large to come to the states by air.

We have to ship them by sea.

- Maybe we want to slide 'em out.

- Mover: One, two, three.

- Panczenko: We're quite excited that it's here, finally.

And we're going to be even more excited when we finally unpack those crates.

- Mover: Pump it up.

- I'm going to drop this one off to your left side.

- Panczenko: Now, suddenly things are starting to go a little faster, a little faster.

- Right there, you guys. Ready?

- Go now?

- Yep.

- I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I think we've done all due diligence and everybody feels comfortable, the experts feel comfortable, yes, this can be done, but then it's the 'let's do it' part.

- Selbig: It's one thing to ship them here from Paris. That's actually the easy part.

- We're here.

- The hard part begins when it comes into our doors here. So, how do we get it from the loading dock from the outside of our building in a truck...

- Man: Go up some more.

- Selbig: ...to actually being inside this gallery?

- Man: Good.

- Pretty good?

- Yeah. Three, two, one. Go.

- Selbig: We've all very carefully measured and we were able to rig the crates up through a really pretty tight opening in a stairwell here in our lobby.

- Man: It's inside by a foot. Let's just keep going for a while.
[workers conversing]

- Selbig: It still seems rather unbelievable that we're doing this.

I was really worried about if it really would fit through that narrow opening. I can't believe how big that crate is, and how long.

But it did-- Everything seems to be going off without a hitch.

And we have them up to the third floor and now they're just currently taking them off of the gantries so that they can roll them through our galleries into the ancient gallery.

- Panczenko: This will be a six- to eight-week process. And I'm not even talking about the week after we unveil the piece because the week after that, we have to put all the other artwork back to where it was. 
[chuckles]

- Selbig: The panels need to fit in really tightly and we're just keeping our fingers crossed that they do fit.

- Somebody's going to have to check my math on that.

- Selbig: His assistants, I think they also, perhaps, didn't exactly know how complicated this was going to be.

- The surface is incredibly fragile. So, my big worry is: how do we get it up there without touching it? 

- I trust the team. These two guys that work for me are just brilliant.

- It's a bit bigger than anything we've ever done before.

- Treffrey: It's just wire mesh with plaster over it attached to little, thin pieces of steel.

- I'm drilling some pilot holes to make sure we got these crossbeams just to make sure everything lines up. 
[lift platform ascends and beeps]

- Man: It should be pretty close.

- Worker: It's right above it.

- Treffrey: I think this first one-- getting the system just sort of dialed in-- will be the most difficult. And as long as it works well, we'll just copy it four times. And now, the next few days will be the big days.

- Full steam ahead.

- Exactly. 
[drilling]

- Ready?

- Ready.

- Panczenko: Then they have to be lifted into place and hung. 
[workers conversing, drilling]

And then, exactly how the corners work out.

You know, how tightly will they fit? Will they rub one another? So that they fit and work smoothly as a painting all the way around the room.

- Selbig: There's only so much you can plan for.

Once we get up there and we see how level the walls are and how straight and plum the various walls' angles are.

- No, we got to go up though.

- Man: Well, want a little more? Looking really good now.
[workers conversing]

- Now, that's almost be able to tuck in up top.

- You want to come off, on?

- I don't think so.

- Lift.
[workers conversing]

It needs to come down another foot. The left side is good. That side needs to come down.

- Man: The middle is just put down, and then the right side is now there. There's got to be somewhere that works.

- James: Cool. Let's do it.

That feels good. I need you to drop down that little bit on this side.

- Man: I feel them in now. Oh, that's good. 
[laughs]

[workers conversing]

- That's two down.

- Two down, nice.

- Clarke: They look great. It's so cool.

Don't tear the wrapping paper. We have to reuse it for the next murals. 
[woman laughs]

- Panczenco: There's an intensity in this that comes through very, very strongly.

- Wow.

The dynamism of the four of them, you know, swinging all the way around. 
[lively instrumental music]

Oh, yes. Ohhh, yes. It's definitely worth it. And I like the way he's thrown in a little color, a little yellow, a little blue here and there.

- I think he started thinking of it as a ceiling not as a painting.

- Mm-hmm.

- Like that, in particular, is just gorgeous.

- Yup. This is beautiful. It's absolutely beautiful. Yeah. I can't wait to get the classical art collection down here and placed so that whole relationship between antiquity and the present day gets to be demonstrated very clearly.

- Dine: Well, I've never done anything like this. I don't think anybody has, this configuration.

Dan, what's next?

- Eleven.

- Panczenko: He, himself is aware of what he's achieved.

- Dine: You don't get the full feeling of a thing unless you're here. I've never seen it with all four sides butted together. So I was... I'm quite dazzled by them. It's like I didn't do it.

You know, I don't remember doing it because I didn't do it this way. But it worked out just fine. It perfectly satisfied me. It's exactly what it's supposed to look like. 

[lift's pump vibrates 'vroomph']

Should I get you one for Montrouge, really? You could just go up and down all day, all day, back and forth.

This one doesn't look like it's even. It looks like it's dipping down.

- You know, he's done far more than we ever expected.

It's fantastic, absolutely fantastic. Wow.

- I really meant it. I wish you'd find me another gig like this. That was so much fun.

- The other thing I said to our education person, I said, "Okay, I've got a challenge for your kids. When you bring school kids or even school teachers, every single one of those heads and all of those figures is an identifiable ancient sculpture. Can you identify? How many can you do?”

- Yeah.

- So, you know, there would be wonderful thing for people to learn about your art and learn about ancient art--

- Absolutely.

- --at the same time. Well, you know, this installation, I hate to call it this, but in a sense, it's my last hurrah. 
[camera shutter clicks]

Okay. There's things that I'd like to do, and you know me, I've done photography since high school, however, sneak a day in here, sneak a weekend there.

Yes, I bought myself a brand new lens as a retirement present.

And just do what I've always wanted to do with a camera.

- Dine: Well, I mean, farewell to Russell, I mean, thanks a lot, Russell! He's leaving us. And what are we supposed to do now? You know what I mean? And I wish him well, of course, but I'm going to see him anyway all the times. He's a friend of mine.

- And it's been, you know, an exciting 33 years. The new building did not exist at the point. The new building keeps the spaces that we had in here originally and adds the entire new building for museum space. So today, we have approximately 48,000 square feet of gallery space. Very few museums-- whether the university or community-- can boast that much space for the exhibition part

So, here we are. So, I guess it's home now. 
[laughter]

 Ah, excuse me. Well, good to see you, Tom. Glad that you could come. Hello, Paula.

- Hi.

- Hey.

- Jim Dine!

- Everybody here, huh?

- What are you doing? Now, if I only get the artist here, we could get the ball rolling. Wait until you see this thing upstairs! This is really, really special. Yeah, but I'm waiting for Jim to get here. Sorry if I'm a little antsy. Hey! Hello, hello.

Jim? We're going to do something a little bit different. I will introduce my dean. My dean will introduce you and then you, he, and I will be given scissors and we cut the ribbon and tell people "go!" So, just come on up.

And it's my pleasure to welcome you to this reception for one of the really major, major acquisitions and additions to our collection ever.

- So, Russell, thank you. 
[cheers and applause]

- I love this work and I'm really sad that it's here. It should be in my collection, you know. 
[laughter]

 And this is ridiculous that I let it go. 
[laughter]

- Exactly.

- And I declare the exhibition open. You have a real treat coming. Enjoy yourself.

It's amazing to me how many people would come up to me in the course of the evening and say, "Well, you know, we weren't quite sure about some of the skulls. We like some, but we didn't like... But we absolutely love this piece!" 

It really is a tremendous piece, recognizable, either Greek or Roman, piece of sculpture. To have something like this come in and sort of culminate my years as chief curator and director, I'm happy that it came under my tenure, very happy with that.

My most precious moments are working with artists and getting involved with them and their creativity and seeing what can happen in the course of the institution. And so, this really encapsulates a lot of what, for me, being in the museum world is all about.

[music]

[music]