2WRM0001HD Why Race Matters MLK, Jr. Day 2022 Transcript

- The following program is a PBS Wisconsin original production.

- A. Fitzgerald: “Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds.” 

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. wrote these words in 1963, as he sat in a Birmingham jail. 

Hello, and welcome to this special edition of Why Race Matters. I'm Angela Fitzgerald. 

Today, as we celebrate the life and legacy of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., we reaffirm his quest for a more just and inclusive world. But we also recognize that many within our communities do feel like outsiders. For them, social and racial equity remains a dream unrealized. King knew all too well the pain and despair they feel. Yet in his struggle to overcome ignorance and hatred, he never lost hope. 

Over the next hour, we'll hear from three Wisconsin residents about their experiences dealing with matters of race and how these challenges have only served to strengthen their resolve.

- Funding for the Why Race Matters Martin Luther King, Jr. Day Special is provided by CUNA Mutual Group, Park Bank, Alliant Energy, Madison Museum of Contemporary Art, Focus Fund for Wisconsin Programming, and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

- How do you politically engage when you feel more like a prop than a constituent? Civic engagement isn't as easy as simply asking the Black community to vote. For some, it feels like their voices and concerns only matter when their vote counts. Policies and issues that are important to us are often talked about, but rarely addressed. 

On this episode of Why Race Matters, we'll talk with one young voice about the work that they're doing to get the Black community politically engaged. But first, let's discuss Why Race Matters when it comes to civic engagement.
[moving civil rights song]

Civic engagement is recognized as one of the keys to American democracy. And voting as one of the primary actions through which people can become engaged and let their voices be heard. The Wisconsin Constitution, adopted in 1848, prevented Black people from voting, but allowed white men, regardless of their citizenship status, and Native American men who renounced tribal affiliations to vote. Ezekiel Gillespie, a Black Milwaukee resident and former slave, fought and won the right to vote in 1866, establishing the vote for Black men in the state four years before the 15th amendment. Even then, state and local officials continued to use other discriminatory practices, like poll taxes, literacy tests, and direct intimidation to silence the Black vote. A 2017 study found that nearly 17,000 registered voters in Dane and Milwaukee County were kept from polls by the state's voter ID law, a law that disproportionately affected low income and Black voters. Voter suppression still remains today. Despite these setbacks, Black people have historically created their own pathways to civic engagement, and particularly when their interests are met. Grassroots activist and coalition leader Tatiyana Benson shares her experience working to promote Black civic engagement in her community. Thank you for joining us today, Tatiyana.

- Thank you for inviting me.
[Tatiyana and Angela laugh]

- So tell us your story, and what has brought you to the place that you do the work that you do.

- Well, I'm the youngest of 10 children.

- Oh, wow.

- And like, I, my mom has like a really big heart, so we've always been, like all 10 of us have always been involved in our community by like, helping however we can.

- Mm-hmm.

- And just tryna like, support people. I just continue wanting to help people. Like, you know, if you grow up always with the idea, like, when you can help, help. Then like, it's, it like stays with you.

- And so, fast forwarding to today. Tell us about the work that you do around civic engagement, still uplifting Black voice, however you want to define it.

- So I'm part of a grassroot organization, Black Umbrella. And our goal is Black liberation. And we think that you can get there through community support, development, and basically just like, freedom for the people, you know. And so, with that, we do a lot of work with homeless disparities. And so we do a lot of work with like feeding people who sleep outside and tryna provide them with housing. And then, we also plan a lot of marches to bring awareness to different things that are going on in like, legislation or just in politics in general.

- So why do you think that work is important here specifically? 'Cause you were born and raised here and you're still here.

- Yeah.

- So you maybe recognize like, okay, I'm here for a reason. There's some work that needs to be done. So just tell us more about that.

- So I think personally for me, I'm still in Madison because I think that it needs a lot of help. So I think that if you have the space and the will to help something, help it. A lot of times, the Midwest gets a rep of like, a liberal utopia. And so I always tell people that Wisconsin is like cold Mississippi.
[Angela laughing]

There's some things that you love about it, but it has some real, real issues that need to be like, fixed.

- I think like the South, when you think about the South, you think about segregation, you think about organizations like the KKK, you think about like really overt, in your face, like racism, and here, I don't think we get that sort of recognition. Like you said, we're seen as, especially like Madison, we're seen as liberal, like, those things don't happen here. And you're saying like it does, just in a colder temperature. So I guess what would be the ideal for you as someone who again, born and raised here, committed to doing work here to create a state that you want to see, that you want other people to experience. Like what would that ideal look like, in a perfect world?

- You know, this is actually a question I'm asked a lot, and I always feel slightly bad for my answer.

- Uh-oh, okay.

- 'Cause it's like, not the one that people are looking for.

- Okay.

- Maybe it's 'cause I look at things too deep sometimes but, you know, I couldn't tell you what that looks like. I don't know what justice looks like. I don't know if Black people know what justice look like in general. Have we ever really gotten it? So, I couldn't tell you what a just world looks like or feels like. I just know that this isn't it. So I can't tell you what a good Wisconsin looks like. I just know that this, what we have right now, doesn't feel like it's right. So it just needs to be better.

- I mean, that's a perfect answer. Like, I don't see that as being a wrong answer because you're right. We may be upholding an ideal that we don't even, we've never seen modeled.

- Yeah.

- So how do you aspire to something that you don't even know what that looks like. Right, so, wow. So Tatiyana, I'm interested in your thoughts around voting, specifically the messaging that is typically put out there for Black people to get out and vote. Those of us who still have that ability to do so, because that's also kind of couched with the opinion of some that either their vote doesn't matter or like, the lack of enthusiasm around voting because of who the options are. So what are your thoughts on just that topic in general?

- So, when I wasn't able to vote actually because I'm only 19.
[both laughing]

So, when I wasn't able to vote, I was, I used to preach to people like, "Vote, you have to vote every election, every time, "you have to vote because people fought and died for us"

- Right.

- "to be able to vote," like our ancestors didn't take that just for us to not vote. And then when I was able to vote, I started thinking about the fact that is hard, like, I get it's my civic duty, but isn't it a civic duty to like, give me something to actually vote for?

- Mmm.

- Because, you know, and then I started thinking like, our ancestors fought and died for us to be able to vote, to have the right to vote. And I actually, I think it's a form of oppression to tell people that they have to vote even when there's nobody representing something that represents them. I think that the two-party system that has been created by corporate backing has forced Black people in America to feel like a last resort is a real option. And I don't think that a last resort is a real option because I shouldn't be voting for somebody that has out loud and open, been like, "Oh, like, no I don't support things," that I support to my core. Like that's, I just don't think that that's fair to be asked to, yeah, to participate in everything that doesn't actually participate in my life. Like, to ask me and then people will be like, "Oh, you're voting for a lesser evil," like, why do I have to vote for evil at all?

- Why are those the only options?

- Now I would say that it's important for everyone to vote every election because there's always multiple things on a ballot. And so you don't know what you might be missing just because the main thing on the ballot isn't something that-- write somebody in, you know. And don't make it a joke either. Don't like write in some, a joke, if you wanna write your mom's name down 'cause you truly think she can rule this country, run this country better than somebody else, then like, do that, or if you wanna put down someone you know who won't get enough votes but you truly believe that they'd be a better governor for your state, then that's who you should vote for. You know, you shouldn't feel forced to give your vote to somebody who has done nothing to earn it.

- So it's a conversation that's bigger than just, get out and vote. I mean, registering is great, practicing that right is great, but it's beyond that and more of the representation piece. And then like, what are the issues? And if those things aren't there, then like, you may be encouraging people to essentially waste something that's been so valuable and that's been fought for.

- Yeah.

- Like for so long.

- And the more that you vote, 'cause it's funny to say, 'cause I'm saying like, you don't have to vote if it's like, it's not supporting you. But the more that you vote, the more you'll start seeing things on the ballots that support what you're trying to say. The more you'll start actually seeing things that represent your voice.

- It tends to just stop with go out and vote.

- Yeah.

- And not with, what are you voting for? Even understanding the issues.

- Yeah.

- That you could be voting for. So once you are able to vote, like these are the things that these people stand for and breaking it down so people understand what they are, et cetera. 'Cause yeah, there have been even things I've seen on ballots I'm like, "I don't even know what this word means."

- Yeah.
[Angela laughs]

- Like, with all the degrees that I have, I don't know what this is, but these are the choices I gotta, I feel like I need to check one just because it's there, but no one's defined this for me. It's been worded in a way that to me, feels very complicated. So that can feel like, off-putting for people and a barrier to doing exactly what we're encouraging them to do, so.

- I don't know if you ever heard of Afro-pessimism.

- I have, we're talking about that in one of my classes now.

- Yeah, so, I don't believe that Black people can be free in the society that we live in. So it's a big thing to question the entire foundation of our country. But when you think about it, our entire foundation of our country was written and created and built on the back of Black people. We were never meant to thrive or succeed in the system that we live in. It wasn't created to support us either. So we keep tryna to like, okay, how can we do this? How can we do that? But the truth is, is that you can't fix something that's not broken, you just can't.

- Mm-hmm.

- So no matter how much you change it, at the end of the day, you will just like that book, The New Jim Crow, you will always see a new system emerge that is meant to hold, to oppress people. Like, it will always show up in a society that was created to oppress people.

- Right.

- So you have to change it and fix it. You know, and when you say, "destroy the system," people get really scared.
[Angela laughing]

- Right.

- I remember I said that, I actually said that on the news before. And I got a bunch of like, comments and like, basically hate comments, I was getting hate mail. And people are like, "You can't expect people to support you "by saying stuff like destroy, this is our country, you know, like, you should feel love for it." And I do feel love for this country. That's why I wanna destroy the evil that lives within it.
[Angela laughs]

And that's what, that's the system we live in. And that's, and so to tell me that I don't love America as much as you because I have a problem with the way that it's shaped doesn't make sense because I would just leave.

- It's also contradictory, right? Because America was founded on destruction. So how are you saying now destroy is a bad thing when that's how we came to be?

- Yeah. How can you-- to expect me to feel like I'm loved in this society, in this country is ridiculous, you know? To try to fix a system that literally was started by stealing land and stealing people is a ridiculous idea to ever think that like, this could be a just system.

- Right.

- When it was literally, like the Constitution was written to make these things okay, but they're not. So, there is no justice in that.

- It makes perfect sense, when you think about where we are now and how we're like, in the place historically where we're like, that's really being challenged and that's what people are afraid of, to your point, right? People are afraid of something new, but we've never reconciled where we came from. So people are tryna say, "Hey guys, you recognize "that like, historically this is why we are where we are." Can we acknowledge that, in the hopes of building something new and moving forward but you're absolutely right. Thank you, like, you just dropped some major knowledge right now, that was like a class, like seriously, that was like a graduate level class, what you just described very like, succinctly, why we're in the place that we are and why someone like you gets the pushback that you get. When you're simply trying to uplift these very salient points. People understand like one point in time, we weren't even considered human. So if we have recently are still, well not even recently, like we're still fighting for humanity, hence Black Lives Matter.

- Yeah.

- Like that's the same argument as when we were considered three-fifths of a person. It's the same thing, just in, written in a different form.

- Yeah.

- So that's why people are doing the things that you're discussing, like questioning whether or not I can even vote for something that's for my best interest, if my humanity is still a question mark in your mind. If you've never acknowledged me as being equal to you, then how can I trust you with my vote, right?

- And you also think about how it works. Like when you wanna add an amendment to fix something, you like add an amendment to fix something, but the old rules are still written in there. Like, you don't just take them out.

- Right.

- You know, so somewhere, it's still written that Black people are three-fifths of a person.

- Right.

- But then, we decided that they'll be awarded the same laws as people who are fully human. Like, we've never unwritten the fact that Black people were three-fifths of a person. Like, that's never been unwritten, you can't unwrite it.

- So, given that and given those who will be watching this, either can relate because they're doing the work too or have been impacted by some of the systems and things you all are trying to overturn, or those who are like, "Wow, this is something "I'm hearing for the first time. "Didn't know that there were people like you that felt this way or were committed to this work in this way." What do you want either audience to take away from this conversation?

- That honestly, if you're doing nothing or you're not even like, actively trying to do something, 'cause I'm not saying that-- Not everybody can do everything.

- Right.

- But if you're not actively trying to do your part, 'cause I think everyone can play a role in fixing, in fixing America, Wisconsin, Madison, everyone can play a role. And so I think that the takeaway is just that like, do something, 'cause if you're not, then you're-- Really, if you're not, you don't care. And that hurts, to think that people wouldn't care about other people living happy lives, you know.

- Whew, that is so true. So it's not a convenience thing. It's not, "When it's nice outside, I'll go protest, "but we're gonna take a break "during the winter months, you guys." Like what does it mean to really stay committed to something for decades if that's what it takes to bring about that change.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, thank you for that, Tatiyana. Representation is on the rise politically within the Black community. In 2020, a record number of Black women ran for Congress. It's a small step, but an important one. The more representation we have, the more likely that policies that positively affect our communities get passed. There's no doubt that race matters when it comes to civic engagement, but maybe it's time to stop lecturing certain communities to vote and start asking how to earn their vote instead. To learn more, go to pbswisconsin.org/whyracematters.
[marimba music]

- Racial trauma has historically been a constant within the Black community, but how have events such as the murders of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, the shooting of Jacob Blake, among others, added to that trauma? What about the almost daily barrage of media coverage, YouTube clips and social media posts showing Black death? How does that impact Black mental health? On this episode of Why Race Matters we'll talk with a therapist about those daily traumas as well as the mental health hurdles that Black people in Wisconsin face. But first, let's discuss Why Race Matters when it comes to mental health.
[somber music]

- The impact of racism on Black communities is not a matter of obscurity, but one of life or death. A 2018 study shows that media coverage, police brutality, and Black death, indirectly affects the health of Black people across the country. With the mental health burden comparable to that of chronic illnesses like diabetes. The president of the American Psychological Association, Dr. Sandra L. Shullman, says, "We are living in a racism pandemic, which is taking a heavy psychological toll on our African American citizens. The health consequences are dire." The Wisconsin Public Health Association declared racism to be a public health crisis, citing more than 100 studies that link racism to worse health outcomes for Black residents. And yet, only 5% of psychology professionals are Black. So what does an equitable response that supports Black mental health look like? And what are the barriers to treatment that need to be addressed? Licensed mental health professional, Myra McNair, has a few ideas at her practice that are positively impacting the mental health of Black people in her community.

- Thank you for joining us today, Myra.

- Thank you for having me.

- So, Myra, you're in your profession because you recognize that this is an issue. Mental health support is an area of need in the Black community. Given that we're in the state that we're in, we're in a pandemic and there's been a resurgence, thankfully, of refocused attention on the Black Lives Matter movement. But unfortunately, it's come at a cost in terms of more lives being lost. I'm wondering, from your professional standpoint, what does that mean to the mental health of Black people now? Like, it's a lot for everyone, but for our community specifically, what do you think that means? And how is it even showing up, too, within your practice?

- Myra McNair: Yeah, this has been a... This is a huge challenge right now for Black and Brown people but especially, I would say, for Black people. With COVID hitting, it hit our community first and it's still, it's, it's the numbers of how many Black people are dying from COVID and being affected is just, it-- it's just huge, right, the impact. And so, we had that first to deal with with the pandemic, right? And that right alone, just that alone, we were seeing an increase at our clinic for mental health, right? And so, that was a lot. 

And then, after the murder of George Floyd, right? He said, "I can't breathe." We've heard countless Black men say, "I can't breathe." And I always explained with COVID and then with all of the racial unrest, we can't breathe as a community.
[Angela sighs]

It was almost like we were suffocating. And I think, as clinicians, we process this a lot at our clinic. We were also feeling that, right. Because we have that shared experience but then also seeing the impact in our community, right? And the increase of numbers of people coming in-- It was like, we couldn't breathe. And that's the way I explain it. As a community, it's a shared experience that we're having right now in the United States. It was to the point, clinically, that I had to even shut down our clinic for a day.

- Wow.

- Just for an extra day. So we could catch our breath a little bit as clinicians because, like I said, we were having this shared experience with our clients and we needed some time to slow down and for some self-care and processing.

- I love everything that you just said especially to like the mindfulness that you brought to your staff, because there's so often-- I've talked to, like, Black professionals in this city alone, who were like, I have to figure out how to put on the face when I joined my Zoom call because I'm dealing with so much, but because it's not-- this experience is not shared amongst my coworkers.

- Right.

- Like, I don't have a space even to process at work. So, I have to file it away, do what I have to do to make it through the day. And then, hopefully, I have another safe space outside of the workday. But the fact that you've embedded that because you're like, "We get it."

- Yeah.

- We're not only supporting, like, our community, but we are part of the community and are being impacted, as well. So, how are we taking care of ourselves so that we're in a position to be of support and to provide that, like...? because you're right-- being in a pandemic, we can't all come together like we normally would. And so, what does that look like now? How is that different?

- Yeah.

- So, I love that you are attentive to that in a way that I think that perhaps other people might not have been as thoughtful around. What do you think are the effects of our being inundated by the media with images of Black death, whether it's, you know, George Floyd, him being kneeled on his neck until he suffocated, Black men being shot, like, whatever the case may be? On the one hand, those images are put out there to kind of force, to propel people to care. But for those of us who already care, it could be a lot. So, what are you seeing or hearing that you think is a reflection of that impact of those images?

- Yeah, it's a huge impact. And I would say the hugest is it's really like a trauma response that's happening within a lot of Black people that are seeing these videos and they're being shared over and over and over again. And for a lot of people, sometimes people don't even know that they're opening it or they're about to watch a video like that. 

I talked to one of my other colleagues in DC who's actually a clinician and she was so traumatized over Tamir Rice. And she didn't know what she was about to watch. And literally, like, those images just kept replaying over and over of Tamir Rice and just how young he was. And being a mom, right? And having a son, it's just, it's a trauma response. 

And so, I tell a lot of people to really try to take a step back and take social media breaks because sometimes you don't know that you're opening these things or you're about to see a video like that. 

And I get that, you know, they're needed sometimes for education, but I would say, you know, right now, we've seen enough. But it's really hard, I think, for Black people to really just be exposed to that kind of trauma. And it's not new, unfortunately. This trauma is not new. These types of traumas have been within our communities really since slavery, right? And we talk about lynching and now, we're, we're-- it's just a different form of it.

- Yeah, that's does feel like the frustrating thing that... The need for this to continue because that was Emmett Till's mother's-- Like, her whole reason for having an open casket funeral for her son-- and we've all seen the images of what he looked like-- was to show, "This is what you've done. This is what we need to change." 

But we're still then feeling the need to show these images to encourage that same line of thinking. It becomes frustrating. Like you said, it has a super negative and triggering impact. 

And on the flip side, I see some folks who are opting out of so closely following certain headlines, and instead trying to put out funny content or other things being criticized for not focusing on the issues at hand, they're like, I need a break. Like I cannot take this in 24/7. So what do you say to those who are like, "Yes, let's pivot, let's present some joy," right? In the midst of what we're seeing as some very, very violent, very graphic, like images of representations of themselves, essentially.

- Yeah, I think it's a balance, right? Because I think, you know, I have a younger daughter, she's 18, just turned 18. And for her, when she saw a lot of her friends who are white from high school start like just posting things about cooking and, like, other things like that, she was really offended. She really felt like, you know, our whole community is hurting and we're grieving and you're carrying on like nothing even happened, right?

- Has happened.

- And so, I think that there's a balance I think for Black people, it is great-- I, I have posted myself about restoring the joy, restore Black joy and finding ways to take care of ourselves. Finding ways to have joy in the middle of a pandemic. I would say pandemics for us...

- Yes, multiple.

- ...is really important. So, I think it's a balance. I think that, you know, to use our social media platform for those different things. But I think also to remind ourselves that we are human and we need joy.

- Yes.

- We need peace. And it's so hard for us. I would say so much more hard, harder because we have, yes, COVID, but then we have all of the other things that come with the systemic racism in our nation as Black people. So it's not so much us being Black but it's all of the racism that we have to deal with.

- Absolutely.

- That makes it so hard to find joy and to find peace.

- Like you mentioned, the structural racism didn't just stop because of George Floyd and others' deaths and because of COVID. So you have all the things that were already there on top of what's being layered on those, those existing issues. So, taking care of self, like I would say, being, like, an intentional act. There are those who might feel like I need to do something. 

And then there are people outside of the Black community that are looking to us as the solvers of an issue that honestly we didn't create. So for those of us who feel as though I am personally impacted by what's happening while at the same time, like feeling this compelled to do something. Feeling this call to action placed on me. That has to be draining. Like, that has to do something to us. So what do you say to that?

- Yeah, I would say it's really hard, right? It's a really huge impact on our mental health because we don't get a chance to pause and heal. And I think it kind of makes sense because we can't really fully heal when we're talking about a whole shared experience, right? We're talking about a collective healing. We can't really do that until there's some type of change. So I think it's really a human instinct to want to say, okay, we got to solve this problem even if we didn't create the problem,

- Right.

- We have got to help or create some type of change because we, for the next generation.

- Exactly.

- There can't be a healing if this keeps happening, right? Because then we're going to try to heal and then there's something else that happens. And then we try to heal and then something else happens right? But it doesn't make it easy right? And I think it creates a lot of toxic stress. And I always say that toxic stress causes a lot of inflammation in our body, which then causes a lot of other health issues. And I think that's why we're also seeing a lot of issues within our community with health, as well as mental health too.

-
[sighs]

So it's just managing that maybe expectation of even though, yes, you want to solve this for your own children, for generations to come that the approach may need to be managed to not create those other sorts of health problems that you've mentioned.

- And I think, again, it goes to balance right? And creating this balance and making sure that yeah we are making things better for our next generation as much as we can and as much as we have the power to do so. But I think also we do have to push back within the white community right? And say that, you know you really need to create change. This just can't be on Black people. We didn't create this system. We didn't create racism, this can't... And also, us letting white people in
[Angela laughs]

on some of the movements, right? Because knowing that this isn't our movement, this is-- this has to be all of our movement, right? This change has to be with 

- Yes, and historically, that has happened, right?

- Where there were white people who took part in the Freedom Rides, for example, and lost their lives alongside those who were Black that were part of that movement. So, absolutely, this is not just our issue right? It's all of our issue, and we didn't create it, but we need everyone involved to help solve it.

- And, and creating change happens on a lot of different levels. I tell a lot of parents, sometimes the biggest change and the most like revolutionary thing that you can do is just playing with your kids which I know sounds like really like crazy. 

But yeah, like in a pandemic during racial unrest, letting our kids, in the next generation have joy, is not what society is telling us right now. And so that's why I say it's revolutionary, right? Is to just love each other, love our families, love our kids, that is creating huge change. I tell people, it may not-- you may not be a protester, right? Because maybe you're with your kids, right?

- Right.

- Or you can't just drive to the next city and protest with them because you got to get your kids to bed on time
[laughs]

for their virtual school lesson the next day. And that is revolutionary. That is creating change, in your own small way.

- I love that. Like, reframing what revolutionary acts are because you're right. Protesting, marching, all of those acts are appreciated. But for those who can't do those things for whatever reason, what can you do that still speaks to like self-care, love, joy, all the things you've mentioned.

- Yes.

- Angela: Oof! Okay, so I have another question for you,

- Okay.

- For people who were formerly like myself, who are on the fence about pursuing therapy because as you mentioned before, even understanding that there is an issue psychologically is sometimes lost on us because we've never exposed to 'this is what anxiety looks like,' 'this is what depression looks like.' And we may call it something else. 

Like, I very specifically remember experiencing a panic attack in school years ago. And I didn't know what it was. I thought I was having a heart attack at like, I was maybe like 22. And I went to the ER at the time, the city that I lived in, and they asked me if I use cocaine and I was like I've never used drugs in my life, no.
[Myra laughing]

And so, they were like, we don't understand why someone your age would be having a heart problem. They never asked me about school. Like that eventually came out. They were like, "Oh, okay. You're a student so this is probably why," but that didn't click to them to ask me before they asked the drug question right. And it didn't click to me that that was probably a connector. And so, even after having that issue it didn't register like, "Oh, I should probably talk to someone." Now, like 10 year-- plus years later, I'm-- now have a therapist relationship. But for so long, because, I think, the influence of the church, like praying things away, as well as just not seeing myself as having a high enough need to go talk to someone. 

Like, all those things kept me from having a relationship that I think would have been super helpful. Who knows where I would be now had I had a 10-plus year foundational relationship with a therapist? 

So, in saying all that, what do you say to people who recognize that, "Yeah, life is tough. "I get stressed sometimes. "But you know, it's-- everyone's stressed, you know, that's-- or everyone has these issues." What would you say to them to maybe encourage them to consider that: Yes, you're stressed. Yes, everyone's stressed. But the therapist relationship could also be beneficial to you?

- Yeah, I would say, you know whether it's big or small, right? Everyone can benefit from seeing a therapist, seeing a counselor. No one, no doctor would ever say, wait until you're having a lot of issues before you come in for a checkup or we want you to come in when you're having a heart attack. You know, that's when we want you to come into the hospital. No, no doctor would ever say that, right?
[laughs]

- Hopefully, yes.

- And so we, I would say the same thing for, for families, for individuals to come in and seek help, seek support. Even when you don't think it's that big of an issue. And, and what we kind of, that narrative that we tell ourselves so what is big or not? Also comes from your upbringing, right?

- That's true.

- And so, someone else could think that is really big. Or you could look at someone else and compare yourself to someone else and say, "No, that's a big issue," right? And so, normalcy is all what we think it is.

- Right.

- Right, based on our upbringing, based on what society or our own community has told us. And sometimes when we go in and see a therapist, we get a different perspective, right? And someone can say, "No, that is really stressful." And you can, you know... Sometimes it shocks people, like, "Wow, it is? "I didn't realize I was walking around with this stress. "So, I was walking around with this issue that I just thought I was supposed to have it."

- Right.

- Right, because we were taught that it was normal, or this is what I'm supposed to be dealing with. Or maybe you saw a parent that was really kind of-- had a lot of anxiety, right? And sometimes, we pick up on those things, right, from our parents. And we don't even know that. We just think, "Well, I thought that's how it was supposed to feel."

- How everyone...

- Right.
[laughs]

Everyone walked around stressed like that, right. And so, I think it really gives perspective. It just, it creates a better you and that's different for everyone.
[Angela sighs]

- So, there's still more work to be done. But it sounds like there's still like hopefulness, like within the midst of the challenges, which I appreciate, which is always been at the core of our community.

- Yeah.

- Thank you so much, Myra.

- Thank you.

- The constant stream of negative messages and images associated with being Black is honestly exhausting. On top of this trauma, many within the Black community are also tasked with leading the charge on social justice. This daily struggle can be devastating for Black mental health, which is Why Race Matters when we talk about it. But there are ways to get help, people like Myra willing to listen, and the reminder that finding joy is a revolutionary act.
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- According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, only .07% of Wisconsin farmers are Black. That's less than 1%. Where our food comes from and who has access to it can have a huge impact on the health of a community. On this episode of Why Race Matters, we'll chat with a Black farmer who spent most of their life battling food insecurity within the Black community. We'll also discuss land access and other barriers that prevent Black people from farming. But first, let's dig a little deeper and explore Why Race Matters when it comes to our food.
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The story of Black farmers throughout history is one of strength, loss, and resilience. In Wisconsin, that story might be best represented by Pleasant Ridge, a community of Black farmers founded in 1850 by Charles Shepard, a freedman from Virginia. The community was a refuge for escaped slaves and sat on land in Grant County, Wisconsin. In 1863, the emancipation of slavery came with the promise of 40 acres and a mule. The program intended to help freedmen and women find their way after slavery, but was later revoked by President Andrew Johnson. 

Today, there are only 62 Black farmers out of more than 88,000 producers statewide. In 1910, Black farmers owned more than 16 million acres of farmland nationwide. That's compared to 2.5 million acres in 2017. 

It's a major loss of land that several studies have linked back to systemic injustices involving lending practices and access to federal resources. The landmark class action lawsuit Pigford versus Glickman, sought to shed light on the injustice and relieve Black farmers who were discriminated against by the U.S. Department of Agriculture. 

In spite of these barriers, the work of Black farmers today persists as an act of social justice. Not only do Black farmers help to maintain traditional agricultural practices, they also help to increase access to healthy, natural, and affordable foods within their communities. 

For urban farmer and longtime Madison resident Robert Pierce, farming is a source of liberation, a way to pay homage to the past and create a path to a more equitable future.
[Robert chuckling]

- So thank you for joining me today, Mr. Pierce.

- Thank you for letting me join you.
[laughing]

- Of course. So, can you tell us your story and what has brought you into the world of farming?
[Robert laughing]

If that's a simple story to tell.

- Well, it's not that simple.

- Okay.

- But I'll simplify it. I came back from Vietnam, became allergic to a lot of stuff that was in food. At that point, I didn't know what was going on, I just knew that I was eating stuff and getting sick, had to go and get these shots from the hospital and stuff like that so, and
[laughing]

I had decided that I was gonna grow food, you know? You know, after service, you know, I mean, when I was a kid my thing was, my grandmother sent me to all these elderly people to help them clean their gardens or pick their vegetables for 'em and stuff, so I was always in someone's garden, so it wasn't unnatural for me to do this, you know? I mean, I always did it, but I also noticed when I got back from the service how the elderlies, their health was depleting, you know. And one of the reasons were, we were the first McDonald's in Madison, it was on south Madison.

- Mm. So, you mean the Black community had the first McDonald's?

- Now how the heck could you beat a 25 cent cheeseburger? Come on now!
[laughing]

And 10 cent fries! Come on, you know, I mean, a dollar, you could get full!
[laughing]

- That's true.

- And they had stopped eating and growing, you know, they stopped growing food and stopped, you know, cooking meals and stuff because they could always spend a, you know, dollar and feed, you know, $5 is gonna feed the whole family, you know, quick, you know? And so, I noticed their health, you know, started to deplete and so when I took on this venture, that was one of the things I seen, you know, that their health and, you know, was depleting. They weren't eating like we were when we grew up, you know? So that's why I started, you know, doing the greens and, you know, stuff like that, you know, make sure that they were getting these things that you know, that we knew, you know, that we grew up with.

- Up until that point, was this still like a family, more of a home venture? Like, it wasn't a business in the sense or at that point had it extended to...

- Well, I had, you know, I mean, I was in the Madison Business College so, you know, I turned it into a business, yes.

- Mm-hmm.

- I did the old, you know, go into the neighborhoods and taking it to the people's houses and parking my, you know, old raggly truck out,
[laughing]

you know, out on corners and stuff and, you know, and go to somebody's house, they say, "Oh, so-and-so down the street wants you to come by there." We did the Farmers' Market down on the Square and I was like, single parent with four kids, you know.

- Mm.

- Four years old, two, one, and three and a half months old.

- Oh, wow.

- They're all with us in the truck, you know, we're selling vegetables.

- Wow.

- So at some point, you know, it's like we decided that, well, it wasn't making enough money up at the Farmers' Market up here which, you know, everybody else was, but I was the only Black man out there.
[laughing]

So they would look at my stuff but not buy, you know, so it was kinda, "Okay."

- Well, what was that even like for you in terms of stepping into an industry that may be, like you said, people didn't easily associate you with the image, right, that's put in front of us of farming? So like, how did you, one, come to see yourself as this but also navigate other people's perceptions of what a farmer was?

- Well, I've never really cared what people thought about me, you know. I mean, I do what I'm gonna do. If I decided I was gonna do something, I'd just do it, you know, and you know, down on the Square they used to name things, you know, because I wasn't, I was, you know, not conventional as they were. You know, we'll put it that way.
[laughing]

But you know, I just, if it's something I'd seen I wanted to do and I went after it, you know. It was like, I quit down on the Square 'cause I wasn't making any money down there, I just said, "Forget that, that's a waste of my time." You know, the last straw with that was...
[laughing]

I started growing blue potatoes and there was a guy that... Now, we're getting all this publicity about the Farmers' Market being the largest farmers' market in the country.

- Right.

- And there was a guy from the Chicago Tribune that came by and he never said who the guy was, he just said, "There's a guy at the Madison Farmers' Market that grows blue potatoes." We had this rash amount of people that came and they looked at my blue potatoes, but they wouldn't buy 'em.

- Because you were the one that was selling them.

- Right, but they looked at 'em. They wanted to buy one or two of 'em, you know, and I'm having, you know, I've got, you know, piles of 'em, but they wanted to buy one or two 'em to show somebody, you know. And the next year, the young guy that was next to me, he started growing blue potatoes and they bought out, he sold out. He was still, he was buying 'em from me and selling 'em, you know.

- Wow.

- 'Cause he sold, he already sold his out.

- And he probably noticed that people weren't buying from you, so he wanted to capitalize.

- Well, of course.

- Wow.

- Yeah. So, that was the last straw, I said, "I don't need this," you know. I mean, right before my face, that type of racism, you know? And so I just said, "Nah, enough of that."

- What was people's initial reaction to you doing something that maybe they were not familiar or accustomed to hearing a Black man specifically say he was gonna do?

- Well, the elderly people loved it.

- Okay!

- Because, as I stated before, I used to do that as a kid for them. Now, for my peers, they were like, "Man, that's, are you crazy? "That's hard work, man! Hey, man, you're getting dirty!" and all this other stuff, you know, and I'm going, "Yeah, man, so what?" They would see me, you know, in the fields working. You hear someone yell out, "Man, that's slavery!" And I go, "No, that's money!"
[Angela laughing]

And they didn't understand, you know, that, you know, that having land is power. Having, growing your own food where you don't have to answer to anybody, is power.

- Right, right, no one can take that away from you.

- Yeah, they didn't understand that, you know what I mean? You know, I could, you know, go ahead and go through my field and get whatever I wanted and go home and eat! I didn't have to worry about, you know, where my food was coming from 'cause I was growing it. 

And after years, you know, they you know, they would, some of the people that see me out in them fields, they were going, "You still doing that?" You know, but it was so hard to convince people that what I was doing was the right thing because it was like they equated it with slavery. They, you know, the hard work you know, was like, you know. You know, they didn't realize there was a payout for that hard work.

- Right, and that's so interesting because we have been separated from our connection to the land.

- Well, of course!

- Because there was a time when it was forced upon us to do that.

- Oh, yeah!

- And so our, possibly attempts of separating ourselves from that part of our history has led us to maybe lose some of that connection that's super important and that would be beneficial now.

- And that's also another reason why we've lost so much land because that land transferred to younger, to the next generation, they equated it with slavery and they equated it with harder work they didn't want to do, or they've seen their parents do and they weren't gonna to do that, and they ended up selling that land for you know, for whatever it wasn't worth, it was worth a lot more for them to keep it.

- Mm, but they just did not want to be bothered.

- Yeah, didn't wanna be bothered with it, so.

- But do you see a return back to that? Because I follow quite a few young Black homesteaders on Instagram, I'm hearing about this kind of reverse Northern migration where Black people in northern cities are now returning back to the South 'cause it's cheaper, warmer weather. So do you think we're gonna see somewhat of a reversal of what exactly you described, of us trying to reclaim?

- Well, I'm hoping that. I just seen an article about someone in Georgia where they just got together and bought land.

- Mm-hmm.

- 95 acres, brought joy to me.
[laughing]

I said, "Wow, someone's getting it," you know.

- It's happening.

- Yes, it's happening. I think it's a great thing, you know, and I think, you know, I'm hoping that it gets to be more prevalent, you know, because it's like, I'd love to see that in my lifetime to see where, you know, we could be able to have our own communities like we used to and be prosperous, you know.

- I understand you have an interesting story about one young person that you talked to that had a hard time accepting that you were a farmer.
[Robert laughing]

Can you tell us about that?

- I used to go through the schools and talk to the kids, you know, kindergarten kids about different vegetables, and there was this young kid who kept staring at me when I walked in, you know, they knew that the farmer was coming, you know, he's a kindergartner and he knew the farmer was coming to the class. And so when I came in, he stared at me, you know, and he just kept staring at me. 

And so, I was talking. as I kept talking to the kids and stuff and at the very end, I said, "Is there any questions?" and this kid throws his hand up and he says, I said to him, "Yes?" And he goes, "You ain't no farmer." And I go, "Yes, I am." He said, "No, you're not!" And I said, "Well, why am I not? Why am I not a farmer?"

- Right.

- He said, "'Cause you wearing FUBU."
[both laughing]

So I looked at him, I said, "Well, I'm an urban farmer."

- There you go.
[Robert laughing]

That is hilarious. So he clearly had an image in his mind about what all farmers look like.

- Well, of course, you know, most, yeah, especially in kindergarten, you know, they give 'em a book and see, they see a white farmer with a straw hat and bib overalls, you know.
[laughing]

Nah, no, I don't do that.
[laughing]

- Yeah, like, all farmers don't look like that.

- No, no, they don't, you know, I mean, it's like,
[laughing]

you know, I guess I crushed his vision of a farmer, but, you know.

- But maybe in a good way where he's like, "Oh, I can see myself as a farmer. "I don't have to fit this farmer uniform and the stereotype."

- Yeah, now he could go and become a farmer and not have to wear, you know, a straw hat, but I do have a straw hat.
[laughing]

- "I just didn't bring it today, but that is part of my uniform."

- Yeah, I mean, I do have one, but I just don't wear it all the time, all right?
[laughing]

- But you mentioned you were an urban farmer, so can you tell me more about that? 'Cause I have heard of folks who even live in like, really densely populated cities who consider themselves farmers.

- This is a new thing for, I think, for African-Americans where we can capitalize on since we don't have land.

- So urban farming is an alternative to the typical farming model that requires having all of this land.

- Right.

- Okay. So, urban farming with the... It was teaching people that having the right type of soil, that you can create a profit on a smaller scale, that you don't need all of that land. You can work out of a greenhouse or you can work on, you know, anywhere with the right type of soil, you can grow on it. 

And I think this is a new norm for, you know, since African-Americans don't have land, this is where you can be able to, you know, plant anywhere and grow food, you know? And if we do this as collectively, as a group, we could be able to sell those at markets or whatever and be able to make money by doing that. I think the new norm for African-American farmers is urban farming.

- Hmm, I like that. What, I guess, are examples of different crops that you could easily grow even within a small space?

- Anything, I mean--

- Really?

- Well, with the right soil, yes.

- Okay.

- Yeah. But, you know, I mean, your collards, your spinach and kale, all these different things you can grow very easily, you know? I mean, out in the fields, you know, I'm doing melons and everything else, but I'm doing them on mounds and stuff out in the fields, but you have to have land for that, you know.

- So things that just take up more space once they're fully grown.

- Yeah, but if you're just doing stuff in town or in small areas, you could be able to, you know, do smaller stuff, you know, like kale and stuff like that. High, you know, high-dollar stuff.

- Angela: Mm-hmm.

- You know, out of greenhouses, you know, you can be able to do sprouts, which are, you know, five to seven days you know, and nutritious and be able to make money with it.

- Mm, so that is an interesting model. It's like, the land access part, not to ignore that conversation, it's still very important, but not to wait for that in order for, like, the growing to take place. I like that, I may have to do some Googling, figure out how I can do that on my small little patio.
[both laughing]

At my house, see what I can grow that's actually edible.

- You can do that out of pots and, you know, buckets.

- Well, what's the easiest thing to start with? Like, if you're a beginner, you know nothing about anything green but you want to try, the enthusiasm is there, what would you suggest people start with?

- Leafy stuff, greens, lettuce.

- Leafy stuff, okay.

- Greens, lettuce, stuff like that, kale. Those things, you know...

- Are easy to grow?

- They're easy to grow. I mean, you can't...
[laughing]

You can't--

- You can't mess those up!

- You can't mess that up too much.
[laughing]

- That's encouraging 'cause I like those things, too. So I may have to try those and report back to you.

- Yeah, if you mess those up, it's like, you will not be able to get it.

- If my kale comes out yellow, then it's like--

- Robert: You missed something!

- It just wasn't for me, that wasn't my lane.
[both laughing]

Thank you for that.
[serene music]

Food is essential, but the option to grow your own food is not a given in every community. Systemic factors, such as land ownership, wealth, and location all play a role in healthy food options for people of color, which can then lead to health issues that can last for generations, proving Why Race Matters when it comes our food.
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After the death of George Floyd in 2020 and the increased media attention around racial justice, I felt a responsibility to use my connections in public broadcasting to highlight some of these issues in Wisconsin. Certain spaces in Wisconsin are often credited as some of the most livable cities. But for whom exactly? A 2019 report from the Center on Wisconsin Strategy showed that Wisconsin ranks near the bottom nationally on a number of racial disparities, including worst for unemployment, second worst for out-of-school suspension, third worst for voter participation, and fourth worst for infant mortality.

- Angela: The Black experience in Wisconsin needs to be talked about. Our stories need to be heard. My journey here started in 2014, but it's still going. Let's explore and recognize Why Race Matters in our state. Social justice cannot simply be a phrase we use to describe a world we only dream about. It must be a call to action. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. lived out his ideals through word and deed. Let us honor his legacy by continuing to fight against injustice and intolerance. Only then can we turn his dream into reality. I'm Angela Fitzgerald. Thank you for joining us for this special edition of Why Race Matters. To learn more, go to PBSWisconsin.org/WhyRaceMatters to find additional links and resources to help keep you informed. There, you can also check out the Why Race Matters podcast as well as additional episodes.
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- Funding for the Why Race Matters Martin Luther King, Jr. Day Special is provided by CUNA Mutual Group, Park Bank, Alliant Energy, Madison Museum of Contemporary Art, Focus Fund for Wisconsin Programming, and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.