[percussive music]

- Murv Seymour: John Ridley, thank you for joining us for "In Focus."

- Murv, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

- I mean, I've been looking forward to this. I don't even really know where to start because there's so much to talk about with you, but you've done movies, you've written books, you've done comic books, you've done documentaries. How would you define yourself in terms of a artist, a creator, that sort of thing?

- I. . . Good question to start with. I don't know. You know, I don't. . . It's hard to perceive oneself the way that other people do. I don't think that I look at myself the way other people do. I will be honest, I'm shocked and stunned that you have any desire to speak with me, and I mean that legitimately. There's a lot going on in the world. There's a lot of things that deserve people's time and attention.

So, I'm thankful for, you know, at my age, to be able to look at my life and say that I've done some things, but I don't honestly know what I'm doing that is any more significant or useful or important than what anybody's doing out there. I'm lucky to have found something where I could have a job, I could have a career, I could take care of my family, and I don't mean that in a casual way. I'm not particularly bright. I don't have a terrific skillset, but I'm thankful that I could do something that you or anyone else would feel like it has some kind of impact, in some space, in any regard.

- Well, it seems to me that you've done a great deal in the film world, you know, in the written world, those sorts of things. And it's like, I get the impression just listening to you, you know, respond, it's like, no one thing defines you in a sense, or do you, like, you don't think, do you think of yourself more of a writer or more of a filmmaker, more of a director, more of a producer?

- I honestly, and look, I'm gonna say on camera what I said before—

- We're not under oath, just so you know. This is not a—

- But it's not even under oath. It's hard to look at the things that I've done, when I look at the world and I look at what other people do, and say that it's any more significant. So, yeah, I've written books. A lot of people write books. I've made movies. A lot of people make movies. I know that I've done it at a level where other people look at it and go, "Oh, my God, you have a prize." I don't wanna say that that's not a good thing. It's a wonderful thing. You know, positive peer review in any field, I don't care what your job is, there's something really nice that the people who understand what it takes to do whatever it is you do look at it and say, "That's significant. Among everything that's happened this year, it's significant." And I'm thankful for all of that.

But I also come from a family, you know, my father is a doctor. He doesn't practice anymore. My mother's a teacher. She's not teaching anymore. He was in the Air Force. I have an uncle who was a Tuskegee Airman. I see people who do really significant things. I don't think that what I've done is insignificant, but it's just, honestly, it's just really weird to sit here with you and to think that I have anything interesting. I don't know what I'm gonna talk about here.

[chuckles]

I don't, it's not that I don't take myself seriously, but it's hard to take.

- It doesn't sound like it very much.

- And Hollywood, seriously, I'm thankful for it, but I made a movie, so what?

- Well, when you started your journey, what did you set out to do, you think?

- You know, I wanna tell you something, and I don't mean to be glib about this. But my mother, I remember my mother asking me what I wanted to do at one point. Now, mind you, I'm a child when I'm responding, and again, I don't wanna be glib, but I said, "I just, I wanna be homeless. I mean, I just, that's all I'm capable of. I don't wanna be responsible for anything. I wanna get up in the morning and just do what I want." Again, I understand now as an adult that housing insecurity is a serious, serious issue.

But as a child, that's all I could think of was, "I don't wanna get up in the morning and have to be somewhere. I don't wanna be responsible for anything. I don't have the capacity to be a responsible person." And that, as a kid, was the only thing that I could look at and say, "Well, that's what I understand."

Again, as an adult, I understand that that's not where most people want to be in life. It's where they end up, and that's something we need to work against. But that's still part of my mindset is that's all I'm sort of capable of. I'm good at looking at the clock in the morning and saying, "I should probably go back to bed." That I excel at.

- Yeah, but I get a sense you can't really do the things you've done without setting some goals and having some vision and figuring out a path and a strategy to make those kinds of things happen. What is it about the things that you have done that gave you some insight that that was gonna be the path for you? Like, what age were you when you kind of, you know, had a better sense of which direction you wanted to go?

- I think, honestly, and I mean this sincerely, the thing that allowed me to be successful at all is I was too stupid to realize that that's not a career path. If you're a Black person from Wisconsin in the '90s saying, "I'm going to go to Hollywood, and I'm gonna have a durable career, and I'm gonna have an exceptional career," that on paper doesn't make a lot of sense. But at the same time, and I think whether it's me, and I'm not comparing myself to these folks, but if you're the Wright brothers, and you're like, "Yeah, we're gonna go fly," and other people are going, "Well, that's dumb. There's no, you know, da Vinci tried it, other people tried it, you can't do that." But you also have to be so smartly stupid that you're gonna keep going and trying to do that thing.

So people ask me, they go, "Oh, what was your plan?" I don't know if it was a plan or it's, you're so, you have such phantasm. I believe something so much that there was no other way for it to happen, because that was my existence. That was such a reality. And if there's a skillset that I have, it's being able to imagine things that are unreal and then make them real. And that's what happens when you write a book. That's what happens certainly when you're on set and making a film, there's just a disconnect.

It's not like making an airplane. You know how difficult it is to make a plane, but there's certain things, the wings have to be like this. The superstructure has to be like this. The rivets have to be like this. This is what avionics has taught us from the beginning of time to here, and so there's certain things that have to happen, and we see that. You know, when Boeing steps away from that, there's a real tragedy. 

It's different in Hollywood. How do you make a movie that people like? You know, there's not a real physical model toward it. You just have to be able to imagine it and express it to other people, and then get where you're going to go. So, I'm not trying to not answer that question. You ask a very serious question. There's no serious answer to how somebody my age at that time in the '90s could go and really road map success. There may be for other people, 'cause other people did it.

But I'm saying for me, there wasn't a road map for it. It's just, you're too stupid. You keep banging your head against the wall. At some point, the wall's gonna open up, and there's gonna be a path through. Somebody else is gonna go, "You know, you just could've gone through the door." Well, to my estimation, there wasn't really a door, and there wasn't really a plan to open that door. There was just me going, "Okay, well, I don't care. I'm gonna be on the other side of this." And now here you and I sit.

But there's a part of me that's going, you know, there wasn't a plan. There wasn't a road map. There wasn't anything there. It was just necessary for me to be on the other side of the wall, and I was gonna get to the other side of the wall. 

- I think it's safe to say that storytelling is a big part of all the things that you do. What is it about storytelling that excites you, that gets you fired up?

- I think I was just always a really good liar, and for a reason.

[chuckles]

You know, truth and reality were just not. . . It was either not interesting or, you know, there was, you could be a liar and there are a lot of bad things that can happen, or you can be a liar and you go to Hollywood, and there's nothing but good stuff that'll happen. And I do think that there was a bit of always a fabulist nature to me. There was always a desire to, and by the way, this is somebody, I had a wonderful childhood, could not have had a better upbringing, but there's just something else that you see, that you imagine, that you dream about, and it becomes real to you.

So for me, honestly, it was like taking the one superpower that you have, which is being untruthful, and do you really, do we need one more untruthful person in the world? No, we do not, But Hollywood needs untruthful people so badly that honestly, for me to come and just to be able to dream about things, and that's something even now, things that I work on where you get hired and people are, "We just need you to create some stuff." Okay, well, I can sit here and just imagine and come up with stuff that doesn't exist. It's not real, there's no truth to it. Certainly gotten better about adding truth and being more rigorous.

But a lot of it is, honestly, if you're a rigorous person who can tell a story, you're gonna be a journalist, right? That's what you're gonna do. If you're an unrigorous person who likes to tell stories, well, you can be Jayson Blair or you can be me. Now, Jayson Blair, you know, I think there's, that story's more interesting than the story that's actually been told, but that's not what journalism is all about, right? So for me, it was about how do I tell stories? How do I dream? How do I imagine? But how do I do it in a way that's not necessarily negative, but more positive? And that's, you know, again, how I ended up here speaking with you, when you should probably be talking to somebody else who's out doing something.

- I'm curious to know, did you ever have an interest in journalism in terms—

- Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was, you know, one quarter, one semester at NYU, I was studying journalism. But you realize, I mean, that is rigorous and that is real. And I respect it, and I respect journalism. It's not always pretty, it's not always accurate. It's not always true. I think sometimes when people talk about the "liberal media, " you know, if you look at mastheads, if you look at the boards, it's not particularly liberal, in my opinion, but I respect the profession. So for me, in all honesty, it was like, I'm not, I don't have what it takes to do that on a daily basis, right? And, at least, I hope I respected it enough to say, "Okay, I shouldn't be doing this."

Making documentaries is a little different. I think there's rigor to it, but you're coming in with an agenda. I'm talking about this subject. This is what I wanna talk about, even if I remove myself from it. And to a degree, I think journalism is like that, too. Choices you make, what goes above the fold or below the fold, the A block, the B block, those are all choices that have some bias involved in it. But there's still that rigor, hopefully, to get to a universal truth, you know, some undeniable truth. Facts are facts. They still are, whether people want to believe that or not.

I knew that I was not the person to do that, but hopefully, there were other stories that I could tell, whether it's about the Tuskegee Airmen, whether it's about Shirley, whether it's about a documentary about the 10 years around the Rodney King assault in L.A. Those are things that I can do, but that is different than the rigors of journalists.

- Yeah. I'd love to hit on your upbringing in terms of your connection to Wisconsin. I think we have this in common. I think I read that you moved here when you were about six or seven, eight?

- No, I was born here.

- Oh, you were born here.

- Born here, yeah, my sister was born on a military base in Michigan, I think, but I was born here. My youngest sister, we were born here. So yeah, born and raised here in Wisconsin.

- So how has, being raised in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, how has that shaped what you've become? I'm a firm believer that we all are a product of the life we live, the experiences, whether good or bad. How has growing up here in Milwaukee and in Wisconsin impacted you?

- Well, to the positive, I don't think there are any finer people than folks that you will find in southeastern Wisconsin, Milwaukee, and certainly Wisconsin as a whole. You know, everything that I think sometimes can be a stereotype and in some ways a pejorative about small-town folks or Midwestern folks, at the same time, there are truths there. People, they're just having friends, going out and having a beer, seeing the Bucks play, seeing the Packers play, going to a softball game. Things that are so very fundamental are not forgotten here. That doesn't mean people are simple. That doesn't mean they don't have intense interests and intelligent and artistic ability. That is very true. The heart and soul of this country and the heart and soul of the world, those are the kind of folks that you'll find at Wisconsin. That's to the positive.

Things that I won't say are necessarily to the negative, but certainly things that I learned as I went out into the world is that it is incredibly homogenous here, that myself, as a person of color, was shaped a lot by not being outside of the prevailing culture, you know, trying to fit in, trying to express myself by not expressing myself, you know, trying to be liked more than being an individual. And as you get out in the world, you try to take those good values of being a regular person, caring about regular things, seeing people as being human and normal, and bring that into the work, but also bring it into, okay, well, who am I, and how did that inform, or in some ways even retard my development as just, as a Black person and a person of color and certain realities.

You know, when I went to New York in the '80s, coming from Wisconsin, you think, "Okay, well, this is really a cosmopolitan city. This is where it's at." But that was also, you know, Bernie Goetz and Howard Beach and the Crown Heights riots, and race and identity were so much sharper there in a place that I thought, again, quote, unquote, cosmopolitan than they were here. Some of that's demographics, because as you get outside of Milwaukee, you know, there just aren't as many people of color. And it's, I think, easier for all kinds of people to see equality when they don't have to deal with equality. You know what I'm saying?

It's like, of course everybody's equal, 'cause most of us are of one demographic. But at the same time, you go to a place where there are many demographics, and you see they're not as cosmopolitan, and there are these stress points that exist everywhere. And so, how do I navigate those? Who am I in all of that? Who am I just as when I also need to be aware of other demographics. You know, the things that I were not, I wasn't exposed to growing up in Wisconsin, identities and orientations and things like that, where I go somewhere and I think I'm progressive, and I realize, "Okay, well, I'm not as progressive as I thought I was, because there are things that I didn't have to deal with." And it's easy to be progressive when you don't have to deal with certain things.

And I think that's still, you know, true in Wisconsin, that people are very progressive, but sometimes we gotta deal with things that we're not used to, and that challenges us. So there was all of that. There's the good, again, I don't wanna say bad, but things that you discover and things that you realize that I don't, I'm not aware of yet because I haven't had to deal with them. So those are the things that I brought from Wisconsin. A lot of it are things that I wanna continue to bring back to Wisconsin, hopefully in positive ways. I never wanna be disengaged from this city, the city of Milwaukee or the state of Wisconsin, because it has given me so much ultimately, and I think and I hope and I believe that there are things that I can give back in a positive fashion. 

- You feel like all that shows up in your storytelling?

- Well, everything shows up in who we are, whether we want it to or not. You know, we are products for our environment. We are products, you know, there is nurture and there is the learning, the continual learning, and there is also unlearning certain things. So all of it shows up because we are products of our environment, one way or the other.

- When I think of some of the different producer, director types out there who use their storytelling to kind of highlight where they come from, I think of Craig Brewer and his project, he did "Hustle & Flow."

- Yeah.

- You know, and I remember reading, you know, that he insisted that that movie be done in Memphis because it was written based on his Memphis experience.

- Yeah.

- We know John Singleton, you know, uses LA…

- Yeah.

- …as his set for things. Will we ever see a situation where John Ridley shines a light on a Milwaukee story in Milwaukee?

- Oh, yeah, we've been doing that through No Studios. We do mini docs. We get out, we tell stories. That's something that's very important for us. You know, we do storytelling in No Studios in ways that aren't just about film either. You know, we have our Dance Fest every year, where we celebrate dance, we celebrate motion, we celebrate all of that. So yeah, there are a lot of stories out there to tell. We've been telling the stories. We're gonna continue to tell the stories.

If you're asking in a bigger sense, like a motion picture, until Wisconsin gets tax credits, and that's something that I've advocated for, no, that's not gonna happen. I don't wanna say it's not gonna happen. It's going to be a challenge because those tax credits, like any other business, it's really, really important in terms of attracting Hollywood dollars or Hollywood spend. So yes, we are telling stories. We continue to be engaged in Milwaukee and Wisconsin. But in terms of doing feature films out here, whether it's myself or anybody else, Wisconsin, I'm gonna look into the camera, you gotta get tax credits. We've talked about this. You gotta advocate for tax credits. Please do that. Reach out to your representatives. There are no Hollywood, there are no dollars that are better than Hollywood dollars. There really aren't, in terms of spending. Better than Foxconn, I'll tell you that.

[Murv laughs]

Oh, I will tell you that.

- So you bring up No Studios, and we are sitting in the screening room that's named after you and your wife.

- No, that's my—

- Is that not?

- That's named after my dad and my mom, [laughs] not me and my wife. That, that, you don't wanna do that. You do not wanna—

- Now your wife's gonna say, "Okay, can we make that happen?"

- That's Freudian. You know, my wife, she's—

- Oh, okay, it's named after your dad and your mom.

- Yes, the John and Terri Ridley—

- My error.

- No, no, no, no, no. My dad is John Ridley III. I'm the fourth, our son is the fifth. But yeah, no, this is dedicated to my parents. I wouldn't have anything if it weren't for them. But, you know, it's a place to gather. It's a place to, you know, for me, that communal experience, people coming together. People, the lights go down, doesn't matter your background, you're gonna laugh together, you're gonna cry together. Hopefully you have a transformative experience, even if it's just a dumb comedy, and just have the best night out. To me, that's really important.

So one of the things that we wanted to do with No Studio is just continue that communal experience and bring people together. We bring people together through art. We bring people together through community. We bring people together through politics. You know, we had, in the last election cycle here in Wisconsin, we had the Republican gubernatorial town hall here. You know, we've had Tony Evers here. We've had Ron Johnson here. We had Tammy Baldwin here. We've had Cavalier Johnson here. It's really important to us. As a business, we are agnostic. The most important thing to us is if you are gonna represent the community, you need to come out and engage with the community and be responsive to them. 

My politics are hyper-progressive. I'm never gonna, you know, I'm sitting here with you today because this is a progressive country. You know, the Republican Party started in Wisconsin. Different party, but it started here. So, my politics as a person, I separate from our politics as an organization. But with that, it's still about engagement. It all begins with engagement, and we are dedicated to engagement. Irrespective of party, irrespective of policy, we are about engagement.

- Why was it important for you to circle back and to create a space like this? 'Cause this does not look like a small undertaking. And what kind of impact do you think you're having on the creative community here in central, in this part of Wisconsin?

- Well, part of the reason we came here is because we can make a difference. You know, we could've tried to do this in New York. You know, New York is great city, I love New York. We're not gonna make a difference in New York. We're not gonna make a difference in LA. We're not gonna make, look, I shouldn't say not. That's an absolute. We could make small change in New York. We could make small change in Los Angeles. We could make small change in Chicago. And any change to me is positive change. But we could have a large impact in Wisconsin. 

The price of doing business, the cost of getting into business here is obviously much lower than it is in New York or Los Angeles or San Francisco or Miami or Dallas or any of these wonderful major cities. In this city, as you mentioned, when we were speaking before the interview started, our name, the family name, you know, my father's name, my mother's name, when I come here, people don't talk about my accomplishments. They say, "Oh, aren't you Dr. Ridley's son? Aren't you Terri Ridley's son?" So to be able to engage in a space where we can continue to build on all the good things that my family has done for the community, not just for us.

You know, my parents, when they came here, things were difficult, things were challenged, particularly for people of color, but they didn't care. They were gonna make an impact in this community. They were gonna do the right thing, and they were gonna do it because doing the right thing is what people should do, you know, not for credit, not for financial gain, not for political gain. You do it because it's the right thing to do.

So to have the opportunity to come here and to make change, you know, I could call Governor Gavin Newsom in California, and the chances of me getting through are slim to none. I can reach out to Tony Evers, and he's gonna respond. I can reach out to Tammy Baldwin, she's gonna respond. To his credit, Ron Johnson came here and answered some tough questions with our media partners. So, to me, that's really important. While I may not agree with all of his policies, I appreciate anyone who's willing to stand in front of the media and take tough questions. That's really important. Don't know that I could've done that with our senators in California.

So, to me, to be in a space where we can make real positive impact, where there's a legacy, where people understand that when we show up, we do it because we're committed to the community. It's not just, "Well, let me just open a space in Wisconsin." It's about really working towards positive change and positive change for all people.

- Now, what do you think you could've been career-wise if you had access to a space like this, you know, coming up as a young storyteller?

- You know, it's a very good question, because I would've loved a space like this. I don't know that when I was younger I would've been bright enough to take advantage of what a space like this is all about. But I'm very happy that we have a space now where we're supporting local artists, filmmakers. We have, as I mentioned, our Dance Fest, where we're supporting artists from all around. You know, this year, in our upcoming festival in 2025, we're working again with Alvin Ailey. We worked with the Joyce Theater. You know, the interesting thing, you had a question about why here. You know, sometimes not being in New York, there are people in New York, there are people in California, people all over who are like, they wanna expand beyond New York City, and they're looking for conduits.

Also in Wisconsin, the moment that you're working with people from outside of Wisconsin, people are excited. Like, "Oh, my God, Ailey's coming? Are you working with the Joyce Theater in New York?" So in some ways, it works very nicely because the folks that are in major markets that wanna establish outside, you know, sitting in the big cities doesn't cut it anymore. You gotta get out. And even being on Zoom or being on YouTube, having a physical presence and being in front of communities, that means something.

So when people are looking to move beyond their borders in major cities and they understand that there're like-minded individuals, there're talented people, there're people who know what they're doing in the artist space, that's really great for them. It's equally terrific when we can help introduce folks who are local to conduits that are outside of Milwaukee, yet they can stay in Milwaukee or southeastern Wisconsin, wherever they are, and still be part of that community. They don't have to leave anymore to do what they wanna do. And if we can be facilitators, that's terrific. That's what we're looking to do.

- Yeah, and how would you describe the state of things in terms of young filmmakers and opportunities that are out there for them? How would you describe the state of things?

- Crappy, I mean, if you wanna work in the Hollywood system, it's really crappy. The good news is you don't have to, and you can go out, you know, everybody's got a camera in their pocket right now. Despite what Apple may tell you, it may not be the best camera for making film, but it's better than no camera. And you can go out, I mean, look, for several hundred dollars, which is still, for some people, that's a lot of money, you know, you can get a really good vlogging camera. You can go out, you can tell stories. You don't need anyone's permission to do the things that you wanna do and tell the types of stories that you wanna tell. And I think that's really, really important.

Because again, I don't think that the so-called liberal media is as liberal as maybe some of the more conservative media would claim that it is. I certainly don't think some of the more conservative media is telling all the stories that are out there that need to be told. So tell your story, tell it your way, whether I agree with what you're saying or not. If it's fact-based, if it's truthful, if it's pro-positive ultimately, tell your story.

- And for someone that wants to do that in any of the mediums, what do you tell 'em in terms of what they need to do to get started? How do they make it happen?

- Well, I mean, look, all you gotta do is go out and do it. If you're like me and you're sitting around in bed with the covers over your head, then nothing's gonna happen. You gotta go out and get started, and it just starts with "go." So I genuinely, I'm no more intelligent than any other person that's out there. I have no more drive than any other person that's out there. But it starts with an idea and beginning and execution, and that's the way I start.

- Is it easier now than it was when you started, you think?

- Well, it's easier in the sense, you know, I had no access to cameras, you know, editing equipment, working on tape, things like that. One can do everything on their phone. And you can edit it on your phone. You can shoot it on your phone. You can color correct on your phone. You can do everything on your phone, so, and you can upload it to YouTube. So there is a space where it's easier to do it. You still need eyeballs, and you have to figure out at some point, how do you monetize it, but in terms of doing something that creates impact, of course it's much easier to do it.

The thing where it's more difficult is, yes, on YouTube, now you got eight billion people who are uploading things and putting things up there. So how do you cut through the noise? How do you become singular? Unfortunately, a lot of social media, you get singular by being negative, doing things that are, I would say puerile or immature. But at the same time, you can get up there, and you can do it.

We have a documentary series, "Doc Talk." There was an individual from Japan who told a story that's incredibly harrowing. She did it herself, she shot it herself. She created this herself. It is probably going to be an Academy Award-nominated documentary. I don't wanna hex it by saying that, but this individual is a self-starter. She told her story. She told her truth using her capabilities. It can be done.

- What makes a good story?

- Whatever is interesting to the storyteller.

- But does everybody nail that?

- No, I don't nail it. But nailing it is also, you know, you may tell a great story. Did the audience like it? You know, the audience may like it, the critics hate it. You know, how do you feel about it? To me, I try to divorce myself as much as possible from. . . There's no rhyme or reason to how things work. I've made more money off of crappy stuff. I've done great stuff that nobody's seen. So what is good? I don't know. I don't care anymore.

- You don't have certain elements you look for in terms of emotion or anger or triumph or any of those sorts of things?

- Sure, but they're hyper-personal, so they're removed from what the audience cares about or what the streamer wants in it or what have you. You can't even align those two, 'cause they're just not commensurate.

- Yeah. It's interesting in looking at all the things you've done, you know, you got the serious stuff like "12 Years a Slave," and you have stuff like "Undercover Brother." Do you see your role as a storyteller more to entertain or to educate? How do you look at it?

- I don't know, I don't even. . . I wanna be careful how I say this. I'm just not interested in what other people think. I just wanna do what I wanna do, and the things that interested me the most are things that I don't even share anymore with people. I have no interest in. . . It is just hard to try to. . . There's a lot of effort in pleasing other people, and a lot of entertainment is about that. You're meant to please people. You're asking for their time. You're asking for their money. You know, you have an obligation at some point to meet them where they live. And at some point, it's just, it's not of interest to me to meet people where they live.

So there are a lot of things that I do that are most interesting I don't share with other people, 'cause it's just, I'm gonna disappoint them. They're gonna disappoint me. Why bother? And yeah, I'm just trying to ride out my career doing what I wanna do at this point, you know. 

- Speaking of career, at one point, I saw that you did standup comedy, and you were not too bad at it.

- [chuckles] I don't know.

- And you made it to some of the big shows. What kept you from going down that road in terms of, you know—

- I wasn't good. It was it the same thing that keeps anybody from going down that road.

- Yeah, but you were good enough to get on "Tonight Show."

- That doesn't, well, the guy, they have the—

- People make careers from those kinds of things.

- They also needed a comedian every frickin' night. So it's, you know, at some point, they run out of the good people. And life doesn't need any more mediocre people doing great things. You know, people need to find what they're really good at, find what they're also passionate about, and follow that. So why be a mediocre comedian? Why be a mediocre writer? Why be a mediocre director? So, you know, I just wanna spend as much time laying in bed asleep.

- I mean, you sound like a really lazy successful person to me.

- No, I don't, you know, look, there are all kinds of ways to get to success. You know, I look at athletes, and I look at how much you have to do. You know, there're athletes right now on football teams who are looking at the rest of the season, and we ain't gonna get there. And all the work you have to do and never quite get to the benchmark of success that other people see. So I'm like, I don't know that I'm. . . I know that I work exceptionally hard so that I can be lazy, and to me, that's okay. And that's something I had to wrap my head around, but I work my ass off so that when I'm not working, I'm not doing a thing.

- Yeah. What keeps you in the game? What keeps you—

- I have kids that gotta finish college. What do you mean, what keeps me in the game? I got bills.

- You're not doing it for the love?

- As I said, I do other things that I never share with other people that I do for the love. So when I'm in, you know, a kabuki show with Mailaika filming the human condition, I do that for love. You know, when I do this series I call "Mono Roll," where I just take black and white pictures of artists and record their voices, I do that for the love. You know, I do plenty of stuff for the love. You know, Hollywood has been great to me. I literally met my wife working on a set, you know, or I wouldn't have the kids that we have that are the most amazing two young men on the planet. No disrespect, sorry, to other parents. Not my fault your kids aren't as great as mine. That, you know, Hollywood has given me every good thing in my life.

But that alone, no disrespect to Hollywood, I wanna keep making films, that doesn't fill me with joy. Going out, I mean, seriously, I just got back from this really, as rough a section of Japan as you're likely to find, and shot some things that were really mind-blowing, but I did it. You know, that was for me. That makes me happy. That makes really happy.

Writing graphic novels is the other thing that makes me happy, doing a version of Batman who's a young man of color, both doing it and the response of people who are like, "Oh, my God, I love that there's a Batman running around out there, and he's Black." You know, actually, technically he's Blasian, which to me, makes me really happy to be able to write a character that's very, very unique.

So there's plenty of that makes me happy, but it's not, I don't, you know, "Oh, Hollywood." I don't wanna be that person, "Oh, Hollywood is boring, I don't need Hollywood." I like Hollywood. I like making movies. I like making money. I like putting on a nice suit and getting in front of people. I like all that. But that, you know, if you talk about what brings me joy, it's the things that, you know, taking a picture that you know you're never gonna share with anybody, but that is the best picture, and it's as good as anything you're gonna see, and it's so good, I don't wanna share it with anybody. That makes me happy. "That is such a good picture, and no one is ever gonna see it." That brings, that fills me up with a joy you can't even imagine. 

- Yeah.

- I'm kind of curious, I just did a project for PBS Wisconsin on systemic racism in Wisconsin, and, you know—

- Why am I not interviewing you?

- No, well—

- You just did something.

- That counts, you just saying that counts, so you just completed that.

- All right.

- But you know, I learned some things about myself, and I found the process of digging into this research and doing these interviews to be a little traumatic. You know, I think of your movie "12 Years a Slave" and even, I watched "Shirley" the other night to get prepared for this. I'm wondering if you've had any kind of traumatic kind of experiences from the work you do and from telling the stories, and does it affect you in that way?

- The thing that gets traumatic is not so much the work itself, but when people who witness the work talk about their experience or what they've been through, particularly with "12 Years a Slave," when people of color were talking about, "Wow, this is the first time that we've seen, you know, slavery truly," and not even truly. I mean, that's, you know, that's not even close to what it was really like. And you're seeing people who are in their 20s or 30s who are so far removed from it, and yet we're not. And I think that's the thing is that when people go, "Oh, why are you talking about slavery," this and that. We're not as removed from it as people would think.

When we did "Let It Fall," and there are people from all kinds of communities, Black, white, Asian, Hispanic, and they're talking about what was going on in L.A. at that time, civilians, police, and you have a screening, and all of these people who lived something together, but separately, but together, talking about what it was like to be able to share their stories for the first time and share them as a community. You know, that affects you. And some things I'm working on now that you realize going into it, "All right, I'm gonna have to see and witness violence every time I edit this, every time I cut this together," and there's a remove from it.

But at some point, it's not theoretical; it's real. That violence happened, it continues to happen. And where we are, in my opinion right now in America is we're regressing. We're not progressing. That's challenging because I wanna see the world progress. I wanna see, you know, this is a great nation full of great people and a great world full of a lot of humanity, but we're not living up to our end as human beings. We're not, and we're all paying the price for it, all of us. 

So that's where it gets traumatic, when you look at the past and you realize we're not as far as we could be, when you look at the work that's done and it's viewed through the eyes of an audience, and they're moved and they're emoting based on, you know, I'm just sitting in my room at home doing my work. That's when it becomes real. So I wouldn't say, I mean, look, my life is blessed. I'm the luckiest person on the planet. I am the luckiest person on the planet. So whatever trauma, whatever I go through, is nothing compared to what people do.

And sometimes, you know, as you say, you go out and you tell a story, and it's like, you gotta shine a light on it. So it may be difficult for you, and I know it is, because you're a sensitive, caring person who wants to tell those difficult stories. But I always think, you know, I got the easy part. You know, I can go take a walk around the block. I'm a free man, I'm not a slave. You know, I got a voice, I got a platform. Sometimes that doesn't help you in the real world. Money doesn't matter, position doesn't matter. You know, the people who have the power have the power, but I still have the ability to advocate. So, whatever I'm going through is small compared to the people who choose to share their stories with me so that I can share it with all of us.

[upbeat music]

- I have something I want to tell you. I am running for president.

- Of the United States?

- Murv: I wanna talk a little bit about how your project "Shirley" that just came out and focuses on Shirley Chisholm's run for the presidency. What attracted you to that project? And is there anything in common in terms of where we are now and, you know, with Kamala Harris making a run for the president as the first, as a Black woman, I guess?

- John: Yeah, well, what attracted me to the story was, first and foremost was Regina King. This was a story that she wanted to tell with her sister Reina, who was a producer on this. Regina is a friend. She is probably one of the most talented and intelligent individuals that I have ever worked with, and this is something that she willed into existence. My job on that was hopefully to be just helpful in telling the story the way that she ultimately wanted to. She deferred to me on many, many things, but I know that I'm there to serve her, and I hope that I was able to do that. Her performance is remarkable. What she and her sister put together is remarkable. I hope that people will watch the film. It's on Netflix. Don't watch it for anything that I did. Watch it because Regina is singular in her performance.

To your question about the similarities in history, you know, I'll be blunt. You know, that film took place 52, the film is set 52 years ago, the 1972 election cycle, and Shirley was aware that they're gonna, a lot of white people who are not even gonna be interested in her message. She didn't care. She was gonna go out and work towards things that she felt were necessary, which was representational politics. You know, every person who votes has a voice. And as I said, you know, she knew that there were gonna be a lot of white folks who were against her, but that ultimately was not the problem. The problem was, in particular, a lot of Black people who could not see ourselves and success in another person of color.

And up to Barack Obama, you know, there was a qualified Black candidate in every single election cycle from '72 up 'til Barack Obama ran. They never carried the Black vote in the primaries. So even as people of color, you know, we were not, "Oh, they're just Black. We're gonna give 'em our vote." That didn't happen. And even Barack Obama had to prove himself against a very, very qualified candidate in Hillary Clinton. So that was one of the things that I learned back then, and one of the things that connects it is, in my opinion, which I can't base on fact, but I can certainly base it on "fact," American ain't ready for a female leader, and it sure ain't ready for a female leader who happens to be a woman of color. And yeah, it just says a lot about us.

- Do you go into a project like that knowing that you want a certain message to come out? Or do you just tell the story and then the message is whatever people see the message to be?

- Yeah, I don't wanna over-agendize. I mean, again, once you choose to tell that story, there are certain elements, you know, I made a choice in the story. You make a choice in the language of cinema. You know, who's the first person you see in the camera? What is that opening shot? Who's the, what is the last shot? Those are editorial choices. Beyond just cutting a film, those are editorial choices. So the choice was made, but it's also still, it remains a fact-based film. And the fact of the matter is is that Black men, metaphorically, even her best friend, Ron Dellums, went out of their way, not just passively, "We're not supporting you. No, we're gonna actively work against your campaign."

And this cycle, I would say there's certainly people within the party who were excited about an incredible, I mean, this, I'm sorry, the vice president, she ain't a DEI hire. She's qualified, she's capable, she's intelligent, she's incredibly humane. But there were people, forget about the other side, there were folks who sat it out. There were folks, particularly some men, particularly some Black men, who were like, "Meh." So it's not even about pointing to the other side and going, you know, there were votes that were left.

- Let me ask you about your filmmaking in terms, or stories you tell. Like, have they revealed anything about yourself? Do you learn anything about yourself? Are there things—

- Yeah, I suck.

[laughs]

Yeah, so I mean, listen, all you ever see are your own mistakes. I don't care if it's me. I'm certainly not Martin Scorsese, I'm not Jordan Peele. I'm telling you, if you ask any of them, they will tell you, "All I see is my mistakes." So I don't, I learned I need to be more prepared. I learned I gotta trust my team more. You learn all of those things, but you know, you still, but if you don't, if you're not nervous every time you do it, if you're not throwing up on day one, then why are you doing it, you know? If it's that easy to do, then let somebody else do it. So all I learned is I need to be more prepared. I need to be more rigorous. I need to trust more, I need to assert more. I mean, it's just always, always, always, no matter what you plan for, there's something else.

- Any lessons on the personal side? Those are—

- Yeah, I suck. What did I just say?

[chuckles]

- You're gonna stick with that, huh?

- Yes, I will.

- Wow. We're gonna wrap this up here, but I'd love to know the impact of race on your, you know, life, career. What has it played, good, bad?

- Yeah, I mean, look, race, it means everything to the negative, and I also, it's gonna mean nothing, because I don't care. You know what I mean? I don't care what other people think. So yes, you're always, look, that's reality. If you're outside the prevailing culture, if you're female, if you're trans, if you're gay, if you're Asian, if whatever, you know, I'm gonna say I'm lucky that I'm a Black man. I am lucky to be a Black man. Can you imagine if I were a trans woman in Hollywood? You know, Asian individual? You know, Hollywood was just barely getting ready for Black folks. You know, Hispanics are the largest minority in America right now, and they're not in positions to have the freedom and have the power to tell their stories the way they want to, still.

So, you know, race plays a part because there's a reality, whether people wanna accept it or not, that there's still a hill to climb. And that's in liberal Hollywood, right? And there's still, you know, if you are, this is according to the UCLA report on employment in Hollywood, and I think the last year that they would be reporting is probably 2022 or in 2024. But if you are, only 1. 6, you know, 1. 6 out of 10 writers of Hollywood films are Black. So I'm working on a film right now. So if you're another Black person and you know me, chances are you're not working on a film. You are less likely, you know, in terms of budget, people of color, your budgets are far lower than other creators. What we do know, reality, films, you know, people have this saying that goes on a bumper sticker that's not particularly deep, "Go woke, go broke."

But the reality is is that films that have diverse casts, higher box office. Television shows, diverse cast, higher ratings, because you're basically saying to more people, "Hey, come check us out." That's the reality, but even, again, in so-called liberal Hollywood, if you're outside of the prevailing culture, it's more difficult. So race means everything, gender means everything, orientation means everything. All of that does. But at the same time, it means nothing because once, you gotta acknowledge it, but what am I gonna do? Am I gonna sit and complain? I'm gonna say, "I gotta go do what I gotta go do." I was gonna get on the other side of the wall, so I or anybody else, and look, there are realities. 

So I'm not saying there's not a reality, but I can complain about that reality, or I can say, "Okay, well, that doesn't matter. I'm gonna go create my own reality." And my reality is now we get to sit here together and I can talk about how badly I suck. That's how, that's my reality.

- If we haven't learned—

- I'm sticking with it.

- If we haven't learned one thing in this interview is that you're just not there with that.

- But you know what? There's something liberating. Here's my thing, everybody else wants to be the smartest person in the room.

- Right.

- Everybody else wants to be a genius. And we can all sit here and look at all the people that are supposed to be genius in business. They're all geniuses until, you know, whatever. Okay, the Metaverse worked out great. That was, like, yesterday's news. Now we're onto something else. Businesses rise and fall. Politicians have all the answers until a problem actually arrives, and then nobody knows anything. To me, there's nothing wrong with walking into a situation and going, "I need to be educated and I wanna learn, and it's okay to learn." And if folks can't teach me, then that says a lot about you. So I have no problem. I suck, but you better be better than me if I'm sitting here going, "I'm not the best," because I've done pretty well.

So to me, it's just, it's okay not to wanna be the smartest person, it's okay. Hendrix used to say, you know, "Knowledge speaks, wisdom listens." So I know I've been sitting here talking a lot. I would've been much happier talking to you about your work dealing with systemic racism, because that's really important to talk about. And a lotta people don't wanna listen to what's really important, or, "That's somebody else, that's not me. I'm not part of the problem, so why are you bringing that, why are you putting that in front of my face?" I would much rather be talking to you.

I do a podcast, "Doc Talk." I love talking to documentary filmmakers, 'cause this is not about me. But you know, people think that I have something to say. So there's a sliver of an audience that's gonna listen to a podcast with myself and my much more brilliant partner, Matt Carey, who's a real journalist. But if I can elevate somebody else's story, to me, that's the only thing that's left that's fun, is elevating other people. You know, when you're a kid, Christmas or Hanukkah or Kwanzaa, it's a great time of year. Then you get to be a young adult, it's the worst time of year. "Oh, my God, I gotta travel. I don't have any money. Oh, somebody wants a gift. I gotta be in two places at once. I'm dating somebody, I gotta go be with their family. I don't wanna do that."

Then you have young people in your life, whether they're children, nieces, nephews, adopted family, and you start to see Christmas, as Gloria Estefan once sang, "see Christmas through your eyes," or whatever that holiday is, and it becomes special because you see the happiness. You see the joy, you see family, and then it's special. So for me at this point, I mean, what am I gonna say? You know, Hollywood, you're gonna love it, wanna do a lot of stuff there, but it's pulling back the curtain, and it's just, it is what it is.

- And do you have any philosophies that you've lived by that have kind of guided you on this journey, that really, that you're always going back to?

- I mean, I don't, I just, I don't. . . I respect you, I respect you. I love you, I really do. I love people, but I do not give an F what anybody else thinks. I don't care; I don't. I love humanity, I really, really do. But at the end of the day, and by the way, I take my not caring, and I keep it in my house. I don't go out and not care, you know, in public. But to me, that's the philosophy. You gotta love people, you gotta love humanity. But you also have to ultimately not care. And I mean that in the most positive way, not in the, "I don't care, I'm cutting this person off. I don't care, I'm driving 80 miles an hour on a snowy day." That's the toxic non-care. I wanna care and I wanna love people, but I also, I just gotta be real. I'm gonna go, "Sorry, I'm gonna go make this movie. I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. I gotta go make this documentary." It's to me, that quality of, "I love you. I love you like a brother, I love you like a sister, but I gotta go be me."

- What do you think the not caring does for you creatively?

- It just allows me an unfettered freedom to go create some stuff that, like, 9 times outta 10 people go, "Well, that, I don't get it, I don't get it." But to me, the joy is, you know, I'm working on something now. It's just been 10 years of "I don't get it," and then somebody goes, "Wow, that is the coolest thing." And you go, "Okay, I wasn't crazy," and I didn't care that all these other people didn't care. I was gonna stick with it. 

So that doesn't make me better. I mean, that's de facto. I'm not saying that like, "That's the secret, I unlocked it. I know more than other people." But I do think that that's the key. And that, and you see people in business, again, I think sometimes they take that "I don't care" a little too far, but there are people who, you know, "I don't care. I'm gonna go drop outta college and go do this."

And that's the separator. It's the, "I don't care. I believe I'm the best quarterback, and I'm gonna do that." "I don't care, I'm a young woman." You know, women in the NBA, we're like fighting and fighting, and now suddenly, people care about the WNBA. They've been out there doing that forever, and now we care, you know? But that to me is the thing. They don't care. They're gonna go out and shoot hoops. They're gonna go do it until we recognize.

- Isn't it ironic? I say "I don't care" all the time, and then I realize I do care.

- Well, you care. You're a journalist, you care. I hope, you know, these gentlemen we're with, they care 'cause they care about what they do. I want people to care. But ultimately, I do think there is a space where people- Here's the thing, I didn't go out to Hollywood to be liked or make friends. And I think that's the difference is when, I hope people, they walk away and go, "John's a decent guy. He represents well." But if you didn't like me, you know, I don't. . . It doesn't feel good to not be liked, but I'm like, it's, again, it's not special. It's not like I figured something out. But at this age, you look back, and it's the people who shrug. 

And one of the things I love about Regina, she's similar. She loves people. She's one of the greatest humanists that you will ever meet. But one of the reasons she is so successful is 'cause she's like, "I'm gonna accomplish the things I wanna accomplish." She's rigorous, she's intelligent, she does the work. But that's one of the reasons that I love her is that she's just like, "I'm gonna, there're things that I need to do, and I'm gonna go do them." And when you look at her career, now, she's somebody who's smart and sharp and capable and good and all of that stuff, and I admire her because she is all those things that I wish that I was. So I look at what I do.

Again, I don't sit here and go, "Oh, I don't care," like that's some genius move. It's more a default of just, you know, you grow up, you're a little different, you're a little weird, and you realize, "Okay, well, it's not about being liked," because everybody likes the, you know, the starting quarterback. Everybody likes the prom queen. And that's great because they have charisma or they have those things, and I appreciate that. But at some point, you embrace that thing of like, "Okay, well, I am who I am, and that's what's important to me." And that's what I would say to anybody, is you gotta be you and you gotta embrace you. And don't go for the likes and the clicks and all that, and when you don't go for them, ironically, that's when you'll get 'em.

- Yeah, last question.

- John: Unless you're Jake Paul. I don't know how to explain that.

- [laughs] That is whole 'nother—

- I don't know how to explain it. I'm not hating on you. I never get down on somebody else's hustle, but I woulda stood there for five million bucks and let you take a couple of swings.

- Yeah, I might wanna take 'em upside the head. Last question.

- Sure!

- Future of storytelling. Where does it go from here?

- Yeah, no, you know, it's tough. To me, again, as I said earlier, I think it's much more democratized in the sense that everybody can do it. But you know, there was something really wonderful about having a central dynamic, the idea that all of us are gonna tune in and have cultural moments, you know. I remember, old enough, you know, and people rushing home to see "Roots" and what that meant culturally, what it meant societally, you know, when people are, like, voting in the tens of millions to have an experience that to that point wasn't central to the American psyche. To me, that's what we lose in the decentralization of it, is what are the things that are special anymore? And even people talk about it.

You know, people talk about "The Bear," and it really is a really special show. But if you look at the ratings, I mean, not a lot of people actually watch it. So there's something really special about cultural moments where people are aware of something even though we don't all watch it. But I think there is something missed when those kind of cultural moments really are isolated and there's an awareness, but not an intimacy. Not, you know, you know the show. You may not watch it. That's great for the show because it's broken through even though there's not a lot of viewers, but it kind of sucks because, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know the show, but. . ." "Oh, do you watch it?" "No, but I heard it's good."

- Yeah. John Ridley, thank you for joining us on "In Focus," appreciate you.

- You know, well, thanks. I'm sure—

- By the way, by the way, you suck.

- Thank you, I'm glad you recognized that. Thank you very much.

[Murv laughs]

- Well, look.

- I appreciate you, man.

- I appreciate you.

- Good stuff, my brother. I really enjoyed that. 

- Thank you.

- Appreciate you making time.