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Another major shake up in
the Democratic primary for

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governor as Mandela Barnes
drops out. How does this

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change the race, and what
are the remaining

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candidates saying as they
make their closing pitches

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to voters? This is inside
Wisconsin politics.

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I'm Shawn Johnson here with my
colleagues Anya van

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colleagues Anya van
Wagtendonk Zac Schultz and

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Rich Kremer in Eau Claire.
Hey, everyone. Hello. So

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this Democratic primary for

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governor couldn't get any
Wilder. Let's see. Let's go

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through the candidates here.
David Crowley drops out.

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Sarah Rodriguez drops out.
David Crowley drops back in.

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We now have Mandela Barnes
dropping out of the race.

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Some pretty big names there.
Anya what happened?

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>> I mean, I will give a
little behind the scenes

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intrigue for our viewers.
We taped a whole different

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show right before this
talking about the debate.

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And we will get into that
later. And we got the news

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in our earpieces that
Mandela Barnes had dropped

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out, so he released a video
on social media and

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interestingly, you know,
doesn't endorse another

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candidate, looked pretty
dejected and essentially

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said, we all can tell the
writing is on the wall of

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who the nominee is going to
be. I assume he is alluding

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to Francesca Hong, who is
just carrying all these

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polls. And he said, you
know, the number one thing

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to do is to beat Tom
Tiffany. So it was not a

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ringing endorsement. It did
not seem like an

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impassioned sort of choice
to to step down, but

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certainly some some
breaking news. You know,

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we're less than two weeks
out from primary day.

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>> Yeah. We got to tell you,
we're recording this on a

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Thursday afternoon. So by
the time you watch it or

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hear it, you may know more
about this story than we do

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right at this moment. We
can tell you right now from

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the Journal Sentinel, the
decisions by the Barnes

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camp, they said, came amid
reporting into allegations

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that Barnes was taking
advantage of his role in

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the party to have sexual
encounters with young adult

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women. We also read from
Politico. The announcement

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comes as Democratic
officials in the state

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brace for damaging media
reports. So, I mean, Zac,

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there are different
circumstances under which a

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candidate can drop out. It
can be received in

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different ways. How would
you characterize this one?

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>> Well, this is different
from past episodes,

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including the flip side of
this, when Ben Mandela

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Barnes took advantage of
this in 2022 in his Senate

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run Senate run, when the
other opponents in that

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primary dropped out and
they dropped out gracefully,

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saying the only way at that
time for them to win the

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nomination would be to go
negative and hurt the party.

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And they decided not to do
that. And they were

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rewarded for that as being
team players down the road.

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Sarah Godlewski was
seen examples of this.

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Almost two decades ago,
Scott Walker was going to

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run for governor in 2006,
party officials said, hey,

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why don't you clear the
field for Mark green? He

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did. And then he was the
nominee in 2010 when party

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officials remembered he was
graceful about that. So on

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one hand, it could be seen
as Mandela Barnes seeing

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the writing on the wall. He
wasn't going to win. But he

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has a future in Democratic
politics in Wisconsin. That

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would be the normal way to
look at this as saying,

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well, there's lots of
future races he could run

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for. But then when you
combine this with the

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reporting that we're
hearing in the rumors that

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have been running around
circles for quite a while

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now, it doesn't have that
same tone to it. So this

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looks more of getting ahead
of the damaging news that

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could be dropping less.
Graham Platner in the East

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Coast Senate race and more
of. Just keep your head

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down and get out of the way
so it becomes less of a

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distraction. And he's
forced to bow out

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disgracefully as opposed to
bowing out on his own terms.

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>> Yeah. You know, you
alluded to there. But in

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his message, he did not say
Francesca Hong name. He

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didn't say, I'm dropping
out because she's the

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frontrunner, and that's
good. He didn't say, I'm

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dropping out. And I support
a challenger because he's

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kind of had some fights
with them recently. Rich,

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you reported on Mandela
Barnes this campaign, and

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in 2022, he entered this
race and presented himself

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as the frontrunner. And it
seemed like that sort of

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slowly, slowly slipped away
during this campaign. And

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now this quite a shocking
arc to his story this year.

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In terms of name recognition,
he did enter the race with

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more than any of the other
candidates, including

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Republican Congressman Tom
Tiffany. And that was

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because of the 2022 Senate
loss to Ron Johnson. It was

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a close race, but and there
was a lot of advertising.

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So his name got around. But
that race really hurt him

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also, beyond whatever is
going to be reported or is

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being reported at this
moment about any

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improprieties. He he was
damaged from that Senate

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loss to Ron Johnson among
Democrats. Even before he

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jumped into the race for
governor, there was an op

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ed that had former
Lieutenant Governor Barbara

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Lawton, a Democrat that is
very involved in the party,

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said that he shouldn't get
in the race, that he's a

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proven he's proven that he
he can't win statewide,

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etc. So there was that. And
then we started seeing in

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the earlier days of this,
you know, gubernatorial

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primary among the Democrats
where people were dropping

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out. They weren't endorsing
Barnes like they did in

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2022. So that was a signal.
Then Governor Evers

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endorsed someone besides
Barnes, who, you know,

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Barnes and Evers served
together, for years. So

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that was a sign. And now
here we are. It's really

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been just a, a really
interesting ride for Barnes.

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>> So his departure kind of
leaves the race in some

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ways where it was, where
there seems to be this

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growing consensus out there
that this is Francesca Hong

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race to lose. She is a
democratic socialist, which

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is sort of defined this
campaign. She was asked

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about her views at this
week's debate. Let's give a

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listen to what she had to
say.

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>> What democratic
socialism is, is a form of

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government that puts
working class people first.

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That puts work first. The
policies that we have been

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working on, permanent
affordability, has broad

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bipartisan support in every
corner of the state.

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>> Ana you've covered her
campaign. You profiled her

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for Wisconsin Public Radio.
How is she presenting her

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brand of politics to
primary voters and also

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potentially critics as this
primary closes out?

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>> Yeah, I think she's been
really consistent, not just

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throughout this campaign,
but throughout her

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political career. She was a
member of the Democratic

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Socialist Caucus in the
Assembly. She's running as

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a democratic socialist on
the Democratic ticket. And

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so you've seen that a lot
in her policy positions. I

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think a little bit what we
saw on the debate stage was

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her trying to nuance some
of that, perhaps for a more

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general election, again, as
she is this kind of runaway

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favorite at the moment. I
saw some criticism actually

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from national DSA members
on social media who were

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saying essentially, oh,
she's not socialist enough,

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but I think she understands
that there is going to be a

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pretty ready made line of
attack from Republicans

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based on some of her past
statements based on calling

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for defunding the police,
based on aligning with

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certain, you know, sort of
far left, more like

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agitated sort of online
figures that that gives

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them easy things to kind of
clip, which can really kind

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of be hard to oppose from a
more kind of nuanced

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position. And so I think we
saw her on the debate stage,

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kind of trying out some of
these more, bitable,

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clippable ways of
approaching her politics.

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>> Yeah. Part of the
question that led to that

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answer there was, hey, the
Democratic Socialists of

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America stand for getting
rid of prisons, getting rid

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of the Senate. Are you with
them? And she said she

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didn't agree with them on
everything. But I do kind

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of sense from her a pivot
toward the general election

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in terms of the way that
she's answering these

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questions. You know, on, I
don't know, you name it,

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tax policy on defund the
police. You know, what

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stood out to you?
>> She's definitely

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nuancing those positions
because in, in politics, if

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you're explaining, you're
losing that that phrase has

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been around for a long time.
So she's trying to explain

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to general election voters
that she's not that kind of

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socialist. She's a
democratic socialist

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because Republicans are
comparing her to Venezuela.

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I mean, that's that's Tom
Tiffany's line of attack

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that I heard on Tuesday
night during the debate. I

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was covering one of his
events, and he's saying,

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well, if you want to know
about socialism, you just

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have to look at Venezuela
when they're eating the

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animals and they're eating
their shirts and there's

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nothing available for
anybody. And that's what's

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coming to Wisconsin. If you
look at Francesca Hong,

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that's what you're going to
hear from them. So her

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trying to go more in the
lines of the old Milwaukee

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Socialists, like the sewer
socialists, they were

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called of like, let's work
on infrastructure and

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public schools and the
public good, the public

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welfare. She's trying to
get ahead of some of those

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attacks and explain that's
where her socialist

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policies lie less in the
international communist

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socialist stuff that we
hear from the countries

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that fall apart, that claim
to be socialist.

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>> And rich. You covered
the debate she was asked

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about. I mean, everybody
there on that debate stage

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was saying, let's tax
millionaires to pay for

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stuff in state government.
She got a little more

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specific than others, and
yet it seemed like

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potentially an incomplete
answer based on her record.

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>> Yeah. That's right. Her
her website has all kinds

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of very specific numbers.
And also she's been in the

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assembly for some time now,
and she's taken a lot of

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votes. She's introduced a
lot of legislation. So on

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the debate stage,
essentially she was saying,

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well, for millionaires,
it'd be a 1% tax increase

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to something like 8.6%
versus, you know, whatever

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it is now. So she said that,
but right away online

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Democrats even were saying,
well, you know, actually

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she's got a plan to, create
a new tax bracket and set

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it at 17 point something
percent. Which is true.

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That was part of a plan she
put out in, in the

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legislature. So she, she
talked really generally

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about it. And, so then
others had to go and dig up

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what she said in the past.
>> Yeah. We did mention

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last week that we were
going to wait for another

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story to develop this
police shooting in Madison.

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And you've heard all the
candidates for governor

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come out and say, you know,
we need to have a swift

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investigation of that. Zac,
I think it's fair to say

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that Francesca Hong
response to the shooting

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was certainly the most
attention getting. She went

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out to the site of the
shooting with a bullhorn

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and called it an execution.
What is she saying now? And,

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you know, why did she use
that word in her words?

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>> Well, she was asked
during the debate, would

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you use would you make the
same statement as governor?

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And her answer was no,
because the governor has a

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bigger, bigger megaphone
and essentially alluding

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that wouldn't be
appropriate for the

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governor to make that
statement. What's

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interesting is you're
supposed to campaign how

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you would govern. And she
did make that statement as

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a candidate only a few
weeks away from a primary.

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And the video of her doing
it, the crowd is clearly

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trying to goad her into
using the word murder. And

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she at that moment takes a
pause and then says,

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execution. So she was even
calibrating what she was

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saying in that moment. This
wasn't as much of an off

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the cuff statement as you
might think. When you cover

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her in speeches. She is
very measured in her in her

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thought and her speech. She
pauses before she answers a

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question she's thinking
about. It's not just

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letting the words fly like
we see on social media

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sometimes with some
politicians, and then worry

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about retracting it later.
So for her to use that word

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was a deliberate,
intentional thing. And then

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to say, well, I wouldn't,
as governor does, call into

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question like, what is the
line, then why use it now

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in this case and not? And
we know it will be used

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against her. Tom Tiffany is
already talking about that.

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They're attacking the
because the street where

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the shooting took place is
still shut down by

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protesters saying that
Madison needs to get

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control of the streets and
that as governor, he would

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obviously have that street
open by now. So they're

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going to use this against
her as a candidate,

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assuming that she wins this
primary. And the question

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is, how does she continue
explaining those statements

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election voters?
>> Let's talk about David

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Crowley, Milwaukee County's
executive who got back in

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this race as the Francesca
Hong alternative. And I got

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to think that Mandela
Barnes departure from this

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race potentially changes
the calculus for him. You

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know, Rich, what were we
hearing from, you know,

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David Crowley as it relates
to Francesca Hong up to

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this point in the race? And,
you know, has it been

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catching on? Is there is
there a sign that this

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theory that Crowley
supporters had is actually

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working?
>> Well, yeah, the, the

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claim that we've heard from
David Crowley and some of

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the other Democratic
candidates is that the

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Republican Governors
Association is essentially

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trying to get hang elected,
during the primary so that

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it would be easier for Tom
Tiffany to defeat her. So

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that was the line going
into it.

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I will say one thing about
those, those ads that you

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mentioned, the Republican
ads, I think they are kind

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of doing their, their
serving two goals right now

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for Republicans. They're
kind of getting bang for

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their buck in a couple of
ways. I do think there's a

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pretty strong case to be
made that they were there

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to prop up. Francesca Hong,
they're saying that she's a

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very liberal candidate in
these liberal media markets,

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but I think now Republicans
do view her as the general

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election candidate in the
way that they're talking

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about her. So they are kind
of getting a head start on

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these attacks in some way.
Ana, David Crowley, and

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00:13:47,461 --> 00:13:52,299
Mandela Barnes were kind of
going at it in as their

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candidacies progressed in
this race, as Mandela

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Barnes kind of felt like
David Crowley had blocked

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his path. Now that Mandela
Barnes is out of the way,

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is there a boost coming for
Crowley?

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>> Yeah. I mean, you know,
it is possible that, among

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other concerns, Mandela
Barnes felt snubbed by the

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fact that Governor Tony
Evers backed Crowley and

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not him. He was his
lieutenant governor. And so

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we saw barbs, I mean, like
almost schoolyard barbs on

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social media, primarily
coming from, Barnes towards

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00:14:23,931 --> 00:14:25,832
Crowley. But then Crowley
would sort of respond in

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00:14:25,899 --> 00:14:28,836
kind. So really like a
really kind of, it felt

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00:14:28,902 --> 00:14:31,405
like bad blood between them.
One of the arguments that

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00:14:31,471 --> 00:14:34,007
the Barnes camp has been
making as other candidates

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have dropped out is we will
absorb those votes. And so

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now part of the question is,
where will these remaining

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sort of Barnes votes go?
Will they go further left

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towards Hong? Will they go
further towards the center,

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00:14:45,786 --> 00:14:47,988
towards Crowley? And of
course, I haven't checked

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00:14:48,055 --> 00:14:50,624
the numbers recently, but
as of last week, 100,000

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00:14:50,691 --> 00:14:52,593
absentee ballots had
already been turned in. I

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imagine that number is much
higher now. So there's also

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00:14:55,195 --> 00:14:58,031
the question of like of the
remaining voters who

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00:14:58,098 --> 00:15:01,268
haven't cast their ballots.
Some of them are undecided.

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But those who were leaning
towards Barnes now were are

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00:15:04,004 --> 00:15:06,340
they going to go,
especially if, you know,

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00:15:06,406 --> 00:15:08,942
these allegations start to
come out and it becomes an

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00:15:09,009 --> 00:15:11,144
even more chaotic news
cycle that distracts from

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00:15:11,211 --> 00:15:14,915
the actual sort of meat of
the campaign,

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00:15:14,982 --> 00:15:18,018
>> Rich, you know, real
quick on that law, on those

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00:15:18,085 --> 00:15:20,954
ballots, there was a
lawsuit filed to try to get

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00:15:21,021 --> 00:15:24,658
them counted. A judge ruled
on that this week. What

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00:15:24,725 --> 00:15:28,729
does that mean for those
absentee ballots?

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00:15:29,263 --> 00:15:33,800
>> Well, yeah, the judge,
dismissed or denied to

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00:15:33,867 --> 00:15:36,370
issue an injunction,
essentially blocking the

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Wisconsin Elections
Commission guidance, saying

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that you cannot, if you
have sent in your absentee

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00:15:41,975 --> 00:15:45,045
ballot, you cannot ask for
it to be spoiled and get a

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00:15:45,112 --> 00:15:47,948
new one. So essentially
what that means is that

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00:15:48,015 --> 00:15:52,653
people who have already
cast ballots for, you know,

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00:15:52,719 --> 00:15:57,291
Lieutenant Governor Sara
Rodriguez Mandela Barnes,

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00:15:57,357 --> 00:16:00,194
Missy Hughes, they're
essentially out of luck, at

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00:16:00,260 --> 00:16:04,097
this point. So unless that
changes, unless this is

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00:16:04,164 --> 00:16:06,466
rushed through an appeal
process up to the Supreme

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00:16:06,533 --> 00:16:09,603
Court, and the Supreme
Court makes a ruling before

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00:16:09,670 --> 00:16:12,306
August 11th, it kind of
seems like those votes will

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00:16:12,372 --> 00:16:16,376
be counted, but they won't
go anywhere.

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00:16:16,443 --> 00:16:19,246
>> Zac, we had a couple
polls out this week. They

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both showed Francesca Hong
with at least a 20 point

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00:16:22,916 --> 00:16:26,086
lead. You know, one of them
showed Mandela Barnes

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00:16:26,153 --> 00:16:28,188
Marquette showed Mandela,
Barnes and second David

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00:16:28,255 --> 00:16:31,925
Crowley down at about 7%.
But in the Marquette poll,

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00:16:31,992 --> 00:16:35,829
we're looking at a third of
voters still undecided. Now,

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00:16:35,896 --> 00:16:38,298
Mandela Barnes is out of
the race. You got all those

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00:16:38,365 --> 00:16:40,834
undecided voters. David
Crowley is still there.

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00:16:40,901 --> 00:16:44,538
Could this race shake up
and change in the closing

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00:16:44,605 --> 00:16:46,907
days?
>> Well, every time we say

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00:16:46,974 --> 00:16:50,511
no, we're proven wrong. It
does get shaken up by

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00:16:50,577 --> 00:16:52,513
larger events than what we
probably could have

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00:16:52,579 --> 00:16:55,682
predicted on this show. But
the question is, is there

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00:16:55,749 --> 00:16:58,585
enough room for anyone to
gain enough ground to catch

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00:16:58,652 --> 00:17:01,755
the lead that Francesca
Hong looks like she has?

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00:17:01,822 --> 00:17:04,057
Just talking about those
absentee ballots that have

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00:17:04,124 --> 00:17:06,827
been cast, they're not
getting counted back. The

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00:17:06,894 --> 00:17:09,463
question will be, once this
race is all over, will the

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00:17:09,530 --> 00:17:12,833
margin of votes that
Mandela Barnes and

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00:17:12,900 --> 00:17:16,503
Rodriguez received add up
to the amount that the

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00:17:16,570 --> 00:17:18,639
second place person took?
Or will they have made a

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00:17:18,705 --> 00:17:21,241
difference in some spoiling
manner? That will be

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00:17:21,308 --> 00:17:23,110
interesting math to see,
but by then we'll have a

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00:17:23,177 --> 00:17:25,646
winner.
to have a a massive

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00:17:27,281 --> 00:17:29,850
comeback here by one of
these candidates coming

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00:17:29,917 --> 00:17:34,121
back to, I guess, edge out
Francesca Hong at the end,

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00:17:34,188 --> 00:17:36,256
or else we're going to have
the most interesting

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00:17:36,323 --> 00:17:38,759
governor's race in the
country this November

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00:17:38,825 --> 00:17:41,695
between a democratic
socialist and somebody that

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00:17:41,762 --> 00:17:44,665
Democrats will paint as an
election denier in Tom

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00:17:44,731 --> 00:17:47,167
Tiffany. So get ready for a
lot of money and ads to

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come to your state of
Wisconsin, which we are

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00:17:50,137 --> 00:17:52,372
very used to. That's all
the time we have for today.

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Thanks for joining us. This
has been inside Wisconsin

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00:17:55,809 --> 00:17:59,213
politics. Be sure to follow
us on PBS Wisconsin. Org

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00:17:59,279 --> 00:18:01,515
WPR.org, YouTube, or
wherever you get your

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00:18:01,582 --> 00:18:03,250
podcasts.