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>> The Democratic primary
for governor starts to get

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negative, and one candidate
turns to national live

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streams to raise money. Not
everyone is happy about it.

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This is inside Wisconsin
politics.

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I'm Shawn Johnson
here with Anya van

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here with Anya van
Wagtendonk and Rich Kremer

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in Eau Claire. Hey, gang.
>> Hey, Shawn.

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>> So I want to start this
discussion with a simple

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question. I think a lot of
people probably associate

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political campaigns with
negative attacks.

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Candidates run for office,
they attack their opponents.

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So, Anya, I'm wondering why
is it noteworthy that here

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in the middle of summer, we
have overt negative attacks

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in this Democratic primary?
>> Yeah. You know, I think

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for the last couple weeks,
months, there have been

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some snipes, what I might
call sort of a Midwestern,

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nice approach to trying to
get negative. This was the

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first week that we got, you
know, a press release from

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a candidate explicitly
saying, my opponent has

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done something bad. I am
going to do something great.

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And that was Mandela Barnes
calling out Sara Rodriguez,

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a former lieutenant
governor, calling out a

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current lieutenant governor
over donations that she

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received while she was in
the Assembly and

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essentially trying to to
suggest that she is viable,

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that he is not. So making
an issue of this in a much

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more explicit way. So a
little bit of a shot across

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the bow, six weeks out from
the midterm to really kind

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of start to make these more
explicit points.

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>> Rich, I think this kind
of pales by comparison from

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attacks you would see in
national politics right now,

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for sure. And in past
Wisconsin campaigns. Have

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you seen anything like this
yet this summer?

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>> Not really. I mean, it's
it's as Anya mentioned,

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these these have been
pretty mild. And I guess if

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we're thinking about, you
know, boneless buffalo

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wings, these would be the
ranch and the, the blue

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cheese type of attacks that
we've seen thus far. We're

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starting to get into the
actual, you know, Frank's

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redhot kind of territory.
But even still, it's pretty

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tame. And what I was
thinking about is the

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earlier veiled criticisms
that we heard, like during

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the Democratic convention
or something, most people

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aren't really tuned in to
this race yet. That is your

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regular voter. But the
people that might be

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getting these
communications from the

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candidates could be, you
know, fellow politicians

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looking to endorse one of
the six candidates in the

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race could also be
messaging out to money

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groups or donors. I mean,
that's speculation. But

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really, unless you're
really tuned in, you

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wouldn't be able to connect
the dots between some of

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the attacks we've seen
until this moment between

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the candidates when they're
talking about electability

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or first time politician,
etc. You'd really have to

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do some homework to find
out. And now it's, it's a

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little more blatant, right?
>> So you would have to

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know like a convention, for
example, when Kelda Roys

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says, we can't have anybody
without experience stepping

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in here at this time, she's,
you know, we kind of know

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who she's referring to, but
she's not saying it.

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Francesca Hong saying, you
know, voters can detect BS.

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I don't know, I suppose she
could be saying that about

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everybody but her. But this
is like a candidate against

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another candidate. So I
guess I'm wondering, what

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does it say about Mandela
Barnes and Sara Rodriguez

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right now that the attack
is coming from Mandela

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Barnes against Sara
Rodriguez? And by the way,

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she responded in kind.
>> Absolutely right. It was

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kind of a forceful exchange
of words. So then her

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response was, essentially,
you ran for Senate and lost.

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I ran for lieutenant
governor and won. And so

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again, them's fightin words.
That's a little bit not

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quite Midwest nice. So I
think it tells us a couple

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of things. One, it says
that Sara Rodriguez is

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considered to be a serious
contender, right? You don't

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need to take down somebody
who has nowhere to come

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down from. Another thing is
that Mandela Barnes is

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really trying to make
utility rates a kind of

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central platform. And so
using this particular thing,

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donations around utility
rates is also a way to kind

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of draw attention to
himself. And then I think

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the third thing is, you
know, voters are pretty

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checked out, even though,
again, we are less than six

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weeks away from the primary,
absentee ballots have

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already started being sent
out. But there's like a way

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that these candidates need
to be drawing contrast

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between themselves in a
crowded race where there's

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not super strong
distinctions, right? On the

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sort of the major issues,
they're relatively unified.

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And so this is also a way
of like distinguishing in

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terms of lanes. So he
didn't go after, for

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example, Francesca Hong,
who is a little bit more on

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his wing of the Democratic
Party, he went after

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somebody who's a little bit
more moderate. And so it's

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a way of, I think, again,
trying to draw starker

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distinctions between lanes
in this race, not just

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between individual
candidates.

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to make sense of the lanes
in this race. I mean, I

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kind of have a sense of it,
but I wonder if they are

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feeling it out too. And
that is kind of the way I

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read it too, is that
Mandela Barnes probably

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win over the Francesca Hong
supporters necessarily, but

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those Rodriguez supporters,
they might be my people.

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>> 1 in a crowded primary,
you're fighting over the

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same voters. You're
fighting over Democrats,

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right? And so you also,
it's the kind of thing

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where a few thousand votes
can be the difference

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between winning and not.
It's more competitive in

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certain ways than a general.
And so like the contours of

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what competition looks like
in the primary is also

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going to look different.
>> Rich.

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>> And this kind of reminds
me of something I heard

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from a campaign strategist
back in 2022. This was the

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Senate race between Mandela
Barnes and Ron Johnson. Ron

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Johnson's polling numbers,
you know, approval ratings

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weren't super high. And
this this person who was a

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Republican campaign
consultant, said Johnson

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doesn't need to improve his
numbers. He just needs to

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hurt and bring down the
numbers of Barnes. So in a

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primary like this, that
might be part of the

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calculus. Like if someone
seems to be whether it be

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from internal polling or
whatever, getting some

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ground in your campaign
doesn't like that. Try to

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knock them down a bit.
>> So I guess I wonder if

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this is kind of uncorking
the bottle, so to speak,

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you know, like, is this
going to be the new norm

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now that a fight started?
Is it okay for Democrats to

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say, well, you know, I
didn't start it, but but I

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got to finish it now, or
they or they see sort of

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the urgency of the primary
coming up. And, and if they

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want to stand out, do they
have to attack? Is there

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any signs that that's
happening?

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>> Well, it's a little bit
of a calculation because,

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you know, on the one hand,
negative attacks can get

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you more attention if
you're kind of sassy on

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social media, that tends to
resonate a little bit more.

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But at the same time, you
don't want to weaken fellow

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Democrats terribly because
ultimately they're going to

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go up against, presumably,
Tom Tiffany in November for

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what is going to be a close
race, like a general

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election in Wisconsin is
always going to be close.

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And so you want to kind of
weaken your opponents

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across the finish line, but
not so much that you kind

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of leave your entire party
susceptible to potentially.

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Tom Tiffany, picking up
what you've already said

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and running with it.
>> Rich, what do you think?

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>> Yeah, it's it's, I agree
100%. And I mean, no matter

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who the Democratic
candidate is, it would be

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surprising if the entirety
of the party doesn't try to

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rally around them, because
this race is pretty

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critical for them as
they're they're hoping, you

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know, the best case
scenario would be a

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trifecta where they win the
state assembly, state

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Senate and keep the
governorship. So maybe

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that's also why the attacks
have been kind of mild. But

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whoever it is, that bad
blood will likely magically

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disappear, at least
publicly after the August

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primary.
>> So, Anya, there was a

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story that you covered this
week involving Francesca

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Hong fundraising strategy
here. It was at the end of

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the fundraising period, by
the way, where she went on

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a couple of national
livestreams to raise money.

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Tell us about who she
talked to and why is that

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significant?
on Monday. One was Mike

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from PA, who's sort of a
progressive streamer

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aligned with the Democratic
Socialists of America. He

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has a pretty big following.
And then she went on with

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Hasan Piker, who's arguably
one of the biggest

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political streamers online,
and he's become something

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of a kingmaker or perhaps
attempted kingmaker on the

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left of American politics.
And he's appeared with a

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number of DSA aligned or
sort of leftist politicians.

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And so she went on with him.
It was about an hour and a

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half appearance. It was a
sort of fun and chatty.

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They talked about politics,
but they also ate Korean

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food and they talked about
merchandise, and they

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talked about whether they
should erect a statue of

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Scott Walker for people to
walk around and slap when

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they have big feelings. So
it was this really, you

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know, it's a very different
kind of appearance than

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might occur sort of here on
PBS Wisconsin or. But that

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was this kind of approach
to, according to Francesca

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Hong meeting, different
types of voters, more

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disaffected voters, the
type of people who keep

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these streams going, again,
perhaps very different

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voters than our, our, our
audience. But at the same

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time, Hasan Piker has said
numerous very controversial

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things in the past, things
about Israel in particular

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that has offended some
Jewish communities. And so

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there's also been a
response. She ended the day

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having raised about $92,000
from those two different

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streams. Hasan Piker has
said now he's going to come

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out to Wisconsin and
campaign with her. But at

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the same time, there's been
this kind of pushback from

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fellow Democrats and others
saying, why would you

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appear with somebody who
has said X, Y, Z in the

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past?
>> And and so like you did

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see some attack there from
David Crowley kind of like

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saying you should just you
shouldn't go on here. Right?

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I mean, essentially, yeah.
>> He said those comments

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are beyond the pale. And,
you know, I should perhaps

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specify what they were. So
he has said, for example,

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nine over 11 was deserved.
And he says that he was

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referring to this idea that
America's foreign policy

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actions have consequences.
And then again, a number of

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his comments about Israel
and Zionism has has sort of

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been seen as conflating
Jewish American Zionists,

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this kind of thing. And so
I spoke with, for example,

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Ann Jacobs, who's the
co-chair of the Jewish

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Caucus of the Wisconsin
Democratic Party, who was

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really kind of appalled by
the fact that Francesca

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Hong would go alongside
this person and said that,

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you know, should Hong
received the nomination in

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November, she feels like
she's going to have a lot

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of work to do to bring
Jewish Democrats kind of

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into the ballot box to make
sure that a Democrat can

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still win. And again, you
know, I reached out to the

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Hong campaign for comment
and they said, essentially,

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we are willing to meet with
just about anyone to share

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our vision if we don't go
on these types of platforms,

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that creates a vacuum that
conservative messaging can

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instead go to. So they're
trying to create this sort

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of big tent. Some of the
concern from other

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Democrats is who all should
be in the big tent.

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>> And how much did she
raise in a day?

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>> $92,000, $57,000 from
Hasan Piker or from that

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stream.
>> And, you know, for

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somebody who's watched
those streams, they kind of

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know what to expect for
somebody who doesn't. It's

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a bit it's a little busy on
those streams, is it not?

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>> Yeah. As a, you know, a
public radio girly, I will

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say it was a little bit
stimulating to have that

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kind of thing going. But I
think people who are

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younger than me like this
is how they are getting a

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lot of their, their news
and information. And again,

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in this kind of funny,
cheeky way.

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>> All right. What do you
think, Chad? I don't know.

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Is that how it's done?
>> Right, fam?

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>> Rich, rich Kremer, what
are Republicans saying

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about this appearance there
by Francesca Hong?

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>> They're saying a lot.
They're they're framing it.

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As you know, this is the
entire Democratic Party

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00:11:48,575 --> 00:11:50,744
lurching to the left
towards these what they

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call dangerous ideas and
comments. So they've

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they've been very critical
of Hong. But again, they're

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conflating this to to try
to say that all Democrats

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are essentially Hasan Piker
fans and they support

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everything that he's ever
said, which is obviously an

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exaggeration, but that
seems to be the way you do

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it in politics when you're
trying to bring down the

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other side.
>> And we'll get a sense in

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the middle of July, July
15th, or when fundraising

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reports are due for the
first half of this year. So

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you'll see not only that
fundraising, but everybody

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else's fundraising up
through that point. And,

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you know, you'll get a real
sense of who's got a

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formidable campaign right
before the campaign wraps

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up. Essentially, we're
going to be in a very

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compressed primary campaign
here. Rich Tom Tiffany, the

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Republican candidate for
governor, is had the

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benefit of not having a
real contested primary on

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his side. And he's getting
a correspondence now from

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the president of the United
States about disaster

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declaration. What happened
there?

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>> It was really
interesting. So President

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Donald Trump used his his
personal social media site,

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Truth Social to announce
that Wisconsin has been

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approved for around $22.5
million in disaster relief

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aid. This is tied to the
storms that we saw earlier

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this year, big time
flooding, other kinds of

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damage that really hit
local governments pretty

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hard. So he made this
announcement, which is not

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unusual, but he didn't
mention Governor Evers once.

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In fact, he said that the
first call that he made was

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to Tom Tiffany, who he also
mentioned I endorsed, and

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he kind of re-upped that.
Trump also essentially

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applauded every Republican
in the congressional

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delegation and didn't
mention a single Democrat

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from Wisconsin, even though
Governor Tony Evers and

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people like Tammy Baldwin
and the rest of the

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delegation sent letters in
May asking for this

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assistance, they were
asking for $27 million. So

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it almost seemed like the
president was treating

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Tiffany like he's already
the governor. And that that

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Evers is already kind of an
afterthought. So that was

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that was pretty interesting
to see.

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>> And the Evers
administration essentially

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doesn't know the details,
at least when you talk to

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them. They didn't know the
details of the funding. You

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00:14:18,759 --> 00:14:20,994
reached out to the white
House press office and had

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00:14:21,061 --> 00:14:24,031
a series of questions for
them about the details, and

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they had a very brief
response to you.

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>> That's right. I wanted
to I asked, you know, when

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might this money be coming?
What type of aid? Because

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there's aid from the from
FEMA that goes to

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00:14:35,909 --> 00:14:38,645
businesses or governments
or individuals. I so those

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were the questions I asked,
and they just said, we

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refer you to the truth,
which means to the

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president's post. So they
didn't have any additional

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information.
>> All right. So we had two

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00:14:50,490 --> 00:14:53,360
very big Supreme Court
decisions, US Supreme Court

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00:14:53,427 --> 00:14:56,129
decisions this week, which
were national news. But I

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00:14:56,196 --> 00:14:58,765
think it's fair to say
there are some Wisconsin

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00:14:58,832 --> 00:15:02,035
angles in there. First,
this this birthright

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00:15:02,102 --> 00:15:05,506
citizenship decision. Rich,
I think this was widely

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00:15:05,572 --> 00:15:07,941
expected that the court
would rule against

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00:15:08,008 --> 00:15:10,644
President Trump's executive
order and say that

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birthright citizenship is
protected by the US

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Constitution. But there are
Republicans, and I mean

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00:15:16,850 --> 00:15:18,418
noteworthy Republicans in
Wisconsin who are saying,

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00:15:18,485 --> 00:15:21,622
we got to do something
about this.

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00:15:22,289 --> 00:15:25,859
>> Yeah. To to to borrow
Ange's term, big feelings.

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00:15:25,926 --> 00:15:28,529
There were big feelings
from some Republicans in

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Wisconsin. Congressman
Derrick Van Orden basically

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00:15:30,797 --> 00:15:33,233
said that the
Constitution's 14th

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00:15:33,300 --> 00:15:36,036
amendment was aimed at
guaranteeing citizenship to

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00:15:36,103 --> 00:15:39,306
freed slaves and not for
children of illegal

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00:15:39,373 --> 00:15:42,176
immigrants. He said the
ruling undermines the

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00:15:42,242 --> 00:15:44,611
integrity of American
citizenship, and that

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00:15:44,678 --> 00:15:47,548
Congress has to do
something about it, with it

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00:15:47,614 --> 00:15:49,516
being declared
unconstitutional, at least

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00:15:49,583 --> 00:15:52,186
the executive order. It's
kind of unclear what that

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00:15:52,252 --> 00:15:55,122
would look like.
Congressman Toni WHEDA,

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00:15:55,189 --> 00:15:58,458
another Republican, said
that, you know, this

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00:15:58,525 --> 00:16:00,961
amendment wasn't intended
for what it's being used

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00:16:01,028 --> 00:16:04,932
for today. There's all this
talk of birth tourism,

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where the idea is that
people that are pregnant,

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00:16:07,367 --> 00:16:09,469
you know, women that are
pregnant from other

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00:16:09,536 --> 00:16:11,672
countries come here, have a
baby strictly so that they

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00:16:11,738 --> 00:16:16,243
can get that child
citizenship automatically.

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One of the more, I guess,
aggressive comments came

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00:16:19,146 --> 00:16:22,583
from seventh Congressional
District Republican

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00:16:22,649 --> 00:16:25,385
candidate Michael Alfonso.
He's the son in law of

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00:16:25,452 --> 00:16:28,355
Shawn Duffy, the U.S.
transportation secretary.

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00:16:28,422 --> 00:16:31,925
He talked about how his
newborn baby can trace her

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00:16:31,992 --> 00:16:34,361
ancestry, quote, back to
before the Revolutionary

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00:16:34,428 --> 00:16:38,765
War, and that the ruling
essentially is telling

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00:16:38,832 --> 00:16:43,203
people that children like
his are not equally as

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00:16:43,270 --> 00:16:47,474
American. To quote Chinese
spies, anchor babies. So a

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00:16:47,541 --> 00:16:51,445
lot of a lot of thoughts
coming from some on the

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00:16:51,512 --> 00:16:53,614
right.
>> And Ana there was this

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00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,383
other Supreme Court
decision involving national

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00:16:56,450 --> 00:16:59,686
parties and how much they
can raise and spend. You

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00:16:59,753 --> 00:17:02,256
said it would export the
Wisconsin model. What do

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00:17:02,322 --> 00:17:05,592
you mean?
Wisconsin, since about 2015,

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00:17:05,659 --> 00:17:08,562
we have had a rule on the
books that says that our

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00:17:08,629 --> 00:17:10,531
state political parties can
raise and spend as much

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00:17:10,597 --> 00:17:13,233
money as they want in
political races. You've

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00:17:13,300 --> 00:17:15,736
actually reported on the
fact that this was a

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00:17:15,802 --> 00:17:17,538
Republican law, that in
recent years, Democrats

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00:17:17,604 --> 00:17:20,841
have made very good use of,
in particular, in our

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00:17:20,908 --> 00:17:24,044
enormous Supreme Court
races. Right? Democrats,

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00:17:24,111 --> 00:17:26,246
for example, for the
election of Janet

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00:17:26,313 --> 00:17:28,482
Protasiewicz, spent $10
million on that campaign

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00:17:28,549 --> 00:17:31,418
and that sort of unleashed
these floodgates. Well, now,

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00:17:31,485 --> 00:17:34,655
as of this Supreme Court
decision, this will be the

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00:17:34,721 --> 00:17:36,857
case at the national level,
at the federal level. So

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00:17:36,924 --> 00:17:40,194
the national political
parties RNC see these kinds

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00:17:40,260 --> 00:17:43,030
of organizations. They can
spend as much as they want

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00:17:43,096 --> 00:17:46,834
on these races in
coordination with campaigns.

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00:17:46,900 --> 00:17:50,037
And so essentially, it's
doing away with a major cap

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00:17:50,103 --> 00:17:53,907
on campaign finance
regulations that, you know,

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00:17:53,974 --> 00:17:56,944
people I've spoken to have
said, as in Wisconsin. So

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00:17:57,010 --> 00:17:59,713
now we'll go the nation.
>> Yeah. And I know the

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00:17:59,780 --> 00:18:01,782
Wisconsin law. Everybody
thought for sure this is

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00:18:01,849 --> 00:18:03,917
going to help Republicans.
It ended up being helpful

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00:18:03,984 --> 00:18:06,286
to Democrats here. We'll
see what happens with this

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00:18:06,353 --> 00:18:07,621
change at the national
level.

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00:18:07,688 --> 00:18:09,823
>> And opened the
floodgates for us to have

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00:18:09,890 --> 00:18:12,159
record breaking, expensive
elections. It seems like

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00:18:12,226 --> 00:18:15,429
every year.
all the time we have for

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00:18:15,495 --> 00:18:17,497
today. Thanks for joining
us. Our colleague Zac

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00:18:17,564 --> 00:18:21,201
Schultz will be back next
week. This has been inside

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00:18:21,268 --> 00:18:23,704
Wisconsin politics. Be sure
to follow us on PBS

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00:18:23,770 --> 00:18:25,506
wisconsin.org. WPR.org,
YouTube, or wherever you

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00:18:25,572 --> 00:18:27,374
get your podcasts.