>>> WELCOME TO "NOON WEDNESDAY,"
I'M MARISA WOJCIK, MULTIMEDIA
JOURNALIST FOR "HERE & NOW" ON
PBS WISCONSIN.
TODAY'S JANUARY 5.
WE ARE BACK, AND IT IS 2022,
ALTHOUGH, IT DOESN'T FEEL LIKE
IT.
WE ARE REACHING NEW LEVELS OF
THE PANDEMIC AND STILL ARGUING
OVER THE 2020 ELECTIONS, SO HOW
DO WE LOOK FORWARD?
OUR GUEST TODAY WROTE A NEW BOOK
THAT TAKES US THROUGH RECENT AND
OLDER POLITICAL HISTORY IN
WISCONSIN, AND HE SAYS DEMOCRACY
IN THIS STATE IS IN DANGER.
MATT ROTHSCHILD IS THE AUTHOR OF
"12 WAYS TO SAVE KNACK IN
WISCONSIN," AND HE JOINS ME NOW.
MATT, THANK YOU FOR THE
CONVERSATION.
>> MY PLEASURE, THANK YOU FOR
HAVING ME ON,MARISA, REALLY
APPRECIATE IT.
>> SO WHY EXACTLY DO YOU THINK
DEMOCRACY IN WISCONSIN IS IN ANY
SORT OF EXISTENTIAL DANGER?
>> WELL, WHEN I WAS WRITING THIS
BOOK, I WAS LOOKING AT SOME OF
THE PROBLEMS THAT HAVE BEEN
CORRODING THE FOUNDATIONS OF OUR
DEMOCRACY HERE IN WISCONSIN AND
AROUND THE COUNTRY TO SOME
EXTENT.
MONEY IN POLITICS, FOR INSTANCE,
WE DEAL WITH THAT EVERY DAY AT
THE WISCONSIN DEMOCRACY
CAMPAIGN, AND GERRYMANDERING IS
A HUGE PROBLEM, AND IT IS REARED
ITS UGLY HEAD AGAIN IN THE LAST
SEVERAL MONTHS HERE IN
WISCONSIN, AND SO THAT'S A
PROBLEM, AND THERE ARE SOME
OTHER LARGER ISSUES, LIKE RACISM
AND ECONOMIC INEQUALITY THAT
HAVE BEEN CORRODING THE
FOUNDATIONS OF OUR DEMOCRACY,
AND SO ALL OF THOSE THINGS, I
THINK, REPRESENT A REAL THREAT,
AND ON TOP OF THAT IS A THREAT I
CAN ONLY WAVE AT IN THIS BACK
BECAUSE I FINISHED WRITING THIS
ALMOST A YEAR AGO, AND THAT'S
WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th,
THE COUP ATTEMPT AND THOSE
SURROUNDING DONALD TRUMP AND
WHITE NATIONALISM AND EPIDEMIC
OF IRRATIONALISM, NOT ONLY ABOUT
THE NOVEMBER ELECTIONS BUT CRAZY
E RATIONALISM ABOUT COVID AND
CRAZY IRRATIONALISM YOU SEE IN
Q'ANON.
HARD TO FUNCTION WITH THAT LEVEL
OF IRRATIONALISM, AND FEEDING
THIS IS A RIGHT WING MEDIA
ECOSYSTEM THAT GIVES PEOPLE IN
THAT CAMP, ESSENTIALLY, AN IV
DRIP 24/7 OF THAT KIND OF
PROPAGANDA, AND SO IT IS HARD TO
BREAKTHROUGH, AND THAT, I THINK,
IS VERY DANGEROUS TO OUR
DEMOCRACY, AND HERE IN
WISCONSIN, THERE WERE
CO-CONSPIRATORS IN THIS
JANUARY 6th COUP ATTEMPT.
BY THAT, THERE WAS 15
LEGISLATORS WHO SIGNED A LETTER
TO MIKE PENCE ON JANUARY 5th,
A YEAR AGO EXACTLY, OF ALL DAYS,
TELLING THE VICE PRESIDENT NOT
TO RATIFY THE ELECTORS, THAT
WISCONSIN SENT TO THE ELECTORAL
COLLEGE.
WE HAD TEN FALSE ELECTORS,
REPUBLICANS WHO WERE IMPOSTER
ELECTORS.
THEY SAY THEY WERE THE ACTUAL
ELECTORS AND TRUMP HAD WON
WISCONSIN, AND SO THIS DENIALISM
ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED ON
NOVEMBER 3rd IS VERY
TERRIFYING TO ME, ACTUALLY, AS
IS THE ASSAULT ON THE WISCONSIN
ELECTIONS COMMISSION, WHICH WE
SEE ALMOST DAILY, AND ON TOP OF
THAT, WE HAVE THE MICHAEL
GABLEMAN FISHING EXPEDITION
THAT'S COSTING IO US $676,000 OR
MORE AND TICKING, AND HE WANTS
TO ARREST THE MAYORS OF GREEN
BAY AND MADISON.
THIS IS CRAZINESS.
WE HAVE NOT SEEN THIS LEVEL OF
PARTISAN ATTACK ON THE INTEGRITY
OF OUR COLLECTIONS IN --
ELECTIONS IN MY LIFETIME.
IT REALLY IS THE SCARIEST MOMENT
FOR DEMOCRACY IN WISCONSIN AND
NATIONWIDE.
I'VE BEEN COVERING POLITICS FOR
40 YEARS AND NEVER SEEN ANYTHING
LIKE IT.
>> SO LET'S GET INTO YOUR LIST
HERE.
YOU HAVE 12 CHAPTERS, 12 WAYS
THAT YOU PROPOSE TO SAVE
DEMOCRACY, SO THE LIST IS
BANNING GERRYMANDERING, CAMPAIGN
FINANCE REFORM, MAKING VOTING
EASIER, REENFRANCHISING FORMER
PRISONERS, AND BANNING PRISON
GERRYMANDERING, TIGHTENING
RECUSAL RULES, DIRECT DEMOCRACY,
RENT CHOICE VOTING, LOCAL
CONTROL, SAVE LOCAL MEDIA, ROOT
OUT RACISM, AND MOVE TOWARDS
ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY.
ARE THESE UNIQUE, SPECIFICALLY
TO WISCONSIN?
>> WELL, NO, NONE OF THEM ARE
UNIQUE TO WISCONSIN.
A LOT OF THEM ARE NATIONAL LIKE
GERRYMANDERING, CAMPAIGN
FINANCE, ECONOMIC EQUALITY,
RACISM, FOR SURE, BUT TAKE ONE
EASY ONE, LIKE TIGHTENING
RECUSAL RULES.
THIS MIGHT SEEM OBSCURE, BUT
WHAT A RECUSAL RULE IS IS A RULE
WHEREBY JUDGES OR JUSTICES NEED
TO GET OFF A CASE WHEN THEY HAVE
AN OBVIOUS CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
THEY NEED TO RESCUE THEMSELVES,
AS THEY SAY.
NOW, IN WISCONSIN, THE RULE ON
RECUSAL IS ESSENTIALLY NO RULE
AT ALL.
THE WISCONSIN SUPREME COURT WAS
INVITED BY THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN
VOTERS AND BY 54 RETIRED JUDGES
AND FORMER JUSTICES IN THE
WISCONSIN SUPREME COURT TO ADOPT
A TIGHT RULE ON RECUSAL AND
CONFLICT OF INTEREST, BUT WHAT
THE WISCONSIN SUPREME COURT DID
INSTEAD WAS ADOPT A RULE THAT
WAS WRITTEN BY THE BIGGEST
LOBBYING OUTFIT IN WISCONSIN,
WISCONSIN MANUFACTURERS AND
COMMERCE, AND THE WISCONSIN
REALTORS, AND, BASICALLY, THE
RULE SAID IT'S UP TO THE JUDGE
OR JUSTICE WHETHER HE OR SHE
COULD GET OFF A CASE OR NOT.
THAT'S A RULE WITH NO TEETH
WHATSOEVER.
ON TOP OF THAT, IF I'M A LAWYER
IN A CASE BEFORE A JUDGE RIGHT
NOW, I CAN GIVE THAT JUDGE'S
RE-ELECTION CAMPAIGN A CHECK FOR
$2,000, AND NEITHER THAT JUDGE
NOR I NEED TO TELL THE LAWYER ON
THE OTHER SIDE OF THE CASE I
JUST GAVE THE JUDGE $2,000.
I MEAN, THAT'S AN INVITATION TO
CORRUPTION.
IT'S BASICALLY LEGALIZED
BRIBERY, AND WE HAVE TO DO
BETTER THAN THAT IN WISCONSIN.
ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS CHANGE THE
LAW.
YOU KNOW, GARY HEBEL, STATE
ASSEMBLY, INTRODUCED A BILL IN
SEVERAL SESSIONS OF THE
LEGISLATURE TO DO AWAY WITH THAT
ABILITY TO ESSENTIALLY LEGALLY
BRIBE A JUDGE AND TO HAVE SOME
REAL TOUGH RULES ON RECUSAL, SO,
YOU KNOW, THAT'S PARTICULAR TO
WISCONSIN, AND WE ARE FALLING
BEHIND OTHER STATES, WHICH IS A
REAL SAD THING FOR ME.
I CAME TO WISCONSIN 40 YEARS AGO
BECAUSE I WAS ENTICED BY THE
PROGRESSIVE TRADITION AND
TRADITION OF CLEAN GOVERNMENT,
BUT WE LOST BOTH OF THOSE.
OTHER STATES ARE BANNING
GERRYMANDERING AND
RE-ENFRANCHIING THE FORMALLY
INCARCERATED AND DOING MORE ON
CAMPAIGN FINANCE THAN WE ARE.
SO WE ARE TUMBLING DOWN THE
LIST.
>> NOW, YOU SAY IN THE BOOK
WISCONSIN WAS ONCE A LABORATORY
OF DEMOCRACY.
NOW, FOR THE LAST DECADE OR SO,
THERE ARE MANY EXAMPLES OF
REPUBLICAN POLICIES ORIGINATING
IN WISCONSIN AND THEN BEING
ADOPTED BY OTHER STATES.
IS WISCONSIN STILL NOT A
LABORATORY FOR DEMOCRACY EVEN IF
IT'S NOT FOR THE DEMOCRATIC
PARTY'S POLICIES?
?
NO, IT'S NOT A LABORATORY FOR
DEMOCRACY ANYMORE, BUT A LAB FOR
THE RICH OR REACTION OR A DISH
FOR THE PRIVATIZERS.
LOOK WHAT SCOTT WALKER DID
ATTACKING LABOR UNIONS.
WE WERE A LEADING STATE AS FAR
AS GIVING LABOR UNIONS THE RIGHT
TO ORGANIZE HERE IN WISCONSIN,
INCLUDING THE RIGHT TO ORGANIZE
IN THE PUBLIC SECTOR.
WE WERE THE FIRST STATE TO ALLOW
THAT, AND WALKER GOT RID OF
THAT.
>> SO THERE IS A LOT OF FINGER
POINTING IN THIS BOOK AT
REPUBLICANS, AND YOU DO HAVE AN
OPENLY PROGRESSIVE STANCE ON
POLITICS, BUT THE VERY NATURE OF
A LOT OF THESE ISSUES HAS JUST
BECOME HYPERPOLARRIZED TO HAVE A
CONVERSATION ABOUT.
WHAT IS YOUR APPEAL TO
REPUBLICANS OR CONSERVATIVES WHO
READ THIS AND MAY WANT TO JUST
DISMISS IT EARLY ON FOR BEING
TOO LIBERAL?
HOW DO YOU BRING THEM INTO THE
CONVERSATION?
>> WELL, I'M ALL FOR
CONVERSATION AND ARGUMENTATION.
I THINK WE NEED MORE OF THAT
ACROSS THE AISLE HERE IN
WISCONSIN.
I INVITE ANYONE WHO WOULD LIKE
TO DEBATE ME TO DEBATE ME OR
JUST, YOU KNOW, HAVE A PRIVATE
EXCHANGE.
I'M FOR THAT.
WE NEED MORE OPPORTUNITIES TO DO
THAT.
I HAVE SECTIONS IN EVERY CHAPTER
ABOUT COUNTER ARGUMENTS AND
COMPLEXITIES AND TRY TO GIVE
SOME EXPRESSION TO VIEWS THAT
DON'T ALIGN WITH MINE, AND I DO
WANT TO SALUTE A COUPLE
REPUBLICAN ELECTED OFFICIALS
RIGHT NOW WHO I THINK HAVE BEEN
VERY COURAGEOUS, ESPECIALLY
SENATOR CATHY BERNEER, HEADING
THE SENATE COMMITTEE ON
ELECTIONS CALLING THE GABLEMAN
FISHING EXPEDITION IS CHARADE
AND NEEDS TO END AND SAID ALMOST
TEARFULLY IN A PRESS CONFERENCE
QUOTING BEN FRANKLIN WHO SAID,
YOU CAN HAVE A REPUBLIC, IF YOU
CAN KEEP IT.
SHE SAID WE MAY NOT BE ABLE TO
KEEP IT AT THE RATE WE'RE GOING.
THAT WAS VERY POWERFUL.
I SAW HER IN A PUBLIC HEARING
WITH OTHER CLERKS AND WITH A
MEMBER OF THE WISCONSIN
ELECTIONS COMMISSION SAYING WE
HAVE ALL OF THESE CHECKS AND
BALANCES FOR OUR ELECTIONS HERE
IN WISCONSIN.
OUR ELECTIONS ARE NOT BEING
STOLEN, AND THAT WAS COURAGEOUS.
THE OTHER REPUBLICAN I WANT TO
SALUTE IS STATE SENATOR ROB
COLES WHO HEADS THE LEGISLATIVE
AUDIT COMMITTEE, THE CO-HEAD OF
IT, AND HE SAID THAT OUR
ELECTIONS ARE SAFE AND SECURE.
NOW, THEY ARE UNDER TREMENDOUS
PRESSURE FROM THEIR BASE AND
FROM SOME OTHER PEOPLE IN THE
REPUBLICAN CAUCUS AND THE
LEGISLATURE TO KEEP HYPING THE
PROPAGANDA ABOUT THE LAST
ELECTION AND KEEP REGURGITATING
TRUMP'S BIG LIE, AND THEY REFUSE
TO DO THAT, AND THEY DESERVE
CREDIT FOR DOING THAT.
>> SOME OF THE TOPICS IN THE
BOOK, SUCH AS CARRYING OUT THE
RESULTS OF THE 2020 -- CARRYING
OUT AND THE RESULTS OF THE 2020
ELECTION, THESE ARE STILL VERY
MUCH PLAYING OUT IN REALTIME.
LOTS OF THINGS EVEN JUST THIS
MONTH IN JANUARY COMING THROUGH
THE COURTS.
HOW MUCH OF YOUR CONCERN FOR THE
STATE OF DEMOCRACY IN WISCONSIN
STEMS FROM WHAT'S JUST HAPPENING
IN THE LAST FIVE TO TEN YEARS OR
LESS?
>> WELL WITH, A LOT OF IT
HAPPENED IN THE LAST YEAR.
THE LAST YEAR'S MADE ME EVEN
MORE WORRIED ABOUT THE STATE OF
OUR DEMOCRACY HERE IN WISCONSIN.
AND OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS, I
JUST THINK MONEY AND POLITICS
HAS BECOME MUCH MORE EXTREME.
AFTER THE UNITED DECISION, A
U.S. SUPREME COURT DECISION BACK
IN 2010, THAT SAID SUPER RICH
PEOPLE AND OTHER GROUPS CAN
SPEND AS MUCH MONEY AS THEY P TO
TRY TO ELECT THIS OR THAT
CANDIDATE, AND THEN IN 2015, THE
REPUBLICAN LEGISLATURE, AGAIN,
WITH THE EXEMPTION OF SENATOR
ROB COLES, PASSED A BILL THAT
TOTALLY REWROTE OUR ELECTION LAW
IN WISCONSIN, WHICH IS
IRONICALLY CALLED, YOU KNOW,
CHAPTER 13, AND -- NO, CHAPTER
11, IRONIC THEY CALL IT CHAPTER
11, THE BANKRUPTCY CHAPTER, AND
WHAT IT DID IS ALLOW SUPER RICH
PEOPLE AND CORPORATIONS TO HAVE
MORE SWAY OVER ELECTIONS THAN
EVER BEFORE.
IT ALLOWED CORPORATIONS FOR THE
FIRST TIME IN 100 YEARS, FOR
INSTANCE, TO CONTRIBUTE DIRECTLY
TO POLITICAL PARTIES.
THE GREAT GOVERNOR AND SENATOR
FROM OUR STATE WHO HIS WHOLE
LIFE FOUGHT AGAINST CORPORATE
CONTROL OF POLITICS WOULD BE
PATROLLING OVER -- ROLLING OVER
IN HIS GRAVE RIGHT NOW IF HE SAW
THAT.
THEY CAN SPEND UNLIMITED AMOUNTS
MONEY ON POLITICAL PARTIES,
BEFORE, THERE WAS A $10,000 DE
FACTO LIMIT OF WHAT SUPER RICH
COULD SPEND ON POLITICS, AN NOW
THERE'S NO LIMIT WHATSOEVER.
THERE WAS AN EXPRESSION IN
WISCONSIN THAT'S NOW ANTIQUATED,
AND THAT WAS, I MAXED OUT, AND
SOME RICH FOLKS IN WISCONSIN, ON
BOTH SIDES, WHO LIKE TO PLAY IN
THE POLITICAL ARENA, ACTUALLY
LIKE THIS EXPRESSION BECAUSE
THEY CAN TELL A CANDIDATE WHO
CAME TO THEM BEGGING FOR ANOTHER
DONATION, THAT, YOU KNOW WHAT,
I'D LOVE TO HELP YOU, BUT
UMIAKSE -- BUT I MAXED OUT, I
SPENT THE $10,000 LIMIT, AND NOW
THERE'S NO WAY FOR A SUPER RICH
PERSON IN WISCONSIN TO MAX OUT.
>> YOU HAVE TWO CHAPTERS IN
PARTICULAR I FOUND INTERESTING
YOU INCORPORATED RELATING TO THE
INCARCERATED, SO, ONE, END
PRISON GERRYMANDERING, AND THE
OTHER IS TO RESTORE VOTING
RIGHTS TO THOSE RECENTLY
RELEASED FROM PRISON, BUT THEY
ARE STILL ON SOME SORT OF PAROLE
OR PROBATION.
WHY DID THESE TWO TOPICS IN
PARTICULAR MAKE YOUR LIST?
WHEN YOU HEAR ABOUT THEM LESS
THAN ISSUES LIKE CAMPAIGN
FINANCE REFORM OR VOTER ID,
THINGS LIKE THAT.
>> GLAD YOU BROUGHT THESE UP
BECAUSE THESE ARE TWO ISSUES
THAT I'VE BECOME FAMILIAR WITH
OVER THE LAST OF SEVEN YEARS IN
THE WISCONSIN DEMOCRACY CAMPUS
THAT I DIDN'T KNOW THAT MUCH
ABOUT BEFORE BUT ARE REALLY
IMPORTANT.
ONE, RE-ENFRANCHISING THE
FORMALLY INCARCERATED.
NOW, THERE'S 64,000 PEOPLE IN
WISCONSIN RIGHT NOW WHO SERVED
THEIR TIME.
THEY PAID THEIR DUES.
THEY SERVED THEIR TERM BEHIND
BARS.
THEY ARE NOW LIVING IN THE
COMMUNITY.
STILL, THEY CAN'T VOTE.
THEY ARE CITIZENS OF WISCONSIN.
THEY DID THE TIME.
THEY CAN'T VOTE.
THEY CAN'T VOTE BECAUSE HERE ON
PAPER, AS IT'S CALLED, ON
EXTENDED SUPERVISION AND PAROLE,
AND SOMETIMES THAT LASTS 10, 12,
15 YEARS.
IF THIGH SERVE THE PENALTY FOR
THEIR CRIME, THE SEVEREST PART
OF THE PENALTY, WHICH IS
SACRIFICING FREEDOM AND LIVING
BEHIND BARS FOR THE WHOLE TERM
OF THEIR SENTENCE, THEY SHOULD
BE ABLE TO VOTE, AND NOW A LOT
OF STATES INCLUDING OUR
NEIGHBORING STATES LET PEOPLE
VOTE ONCE THEY GET OUT BEHIND
BARS.
TWO STATES LET PEOPLE VOTE WHILE
BEHIND BARS, VERMONT AND MAINE,
BUT HERE IN WISCONSIN, YOU KNOW,
WE'RE MAKING THESE PEOPLE FEEL
LIKE A TOTAL OUTCASTS EVEN AFTER
SERVING THEIR TIME, AND I THINK
THAT'S WRONG.
PRISON GERRYMANDERING IS ANOTHER
ISSUE THAT I DIDN'T KNOW MUCH
ABOUT.
NOW PRISON GERRYMANDERING
ESSENTIALLY MEANS COUNTING YOU
AS LIVING IN THE PLACE WHERE THE
PRISON IS LOCATED RATHER THAN
THE COMMUNITY YOU COME FROM.
IN OTHER WORDS, IF YOU ARE
ARRESTED AND CONVICTED IN
MILWAUKEE AND SENT ELSEWHERE,
THE CENSUS COUNTS YOU AS LIVING
IN WAPON FOR TEN YEARS, EVEN
THOUGH LIKELY YOU'RE ONLY THERE
FOR A YEAR AND A HALF OR TWO AN.
AS A RESULT, MILWAUKEE IS
UNDERCOUNTED AND UNDERRESOURCED.
WAPON HAS GREATER REPRESENTATION
AND GREATER RESOURCES THAT FLOW
FROM THAT REPRESENTATION BECAUSE
OF THE WAY WE COUNT WHERE
PRISONERS LIVE, AND THAT SEEMS
TO BE WRONG.
AND, AGAIN, OTHER STATES ARE
MOVING ON THIS ISSUE OF BANNING
PRISON GERRYMANDERING, AND WE
ARE NOT MOVING AT ALL.
>> AND WE HAVE REPORTED ON THAT
VERY TOPIC OF PRISON
GERRYMANDERING ON THIS PROGRAM
SPEAKING TO SPOKES FROM EXPO,
AND THEY REITERATED THAT THAT IS
A WAY TO ADDRESS RACISM IN
WISCONSIN.
ADDITIONALLY, IN YOUR BOOK, YOU
TALK ABOUT HOW CAMPAIGN FINANCE
REFORM IS A WAY TO ADDRESS SOME
FORMS OF OF RACISM IN WISCONSIN.
WHY ARE SOME OF THESE THINGS
DIRECTLY RELATED TO RACE?
>> WELL, RACE, YOU KNOW,
UNDERGIRDS A LOT OF WHAT'S WRONG
WITH OUR COUNTRY AND A LOT OF
THE MALFUNCTIONING OF OUR
DEMOCRACY, AND TO IGNORE RACISM
AS A PROBLEM ACROSS THE BOARD IS
A MISTAKE, AND IN PARTICULAR IN
CAMPAIGN FINANCE, FOR INSTANCE,
BECAUSE OF THE GROSS DISPARITIES
IN WEALTH AND INCOME ON RACIAL
LINES IN WISCONSIN AND IN THE
COUNTRY, BLACK PEOPLE AND
LATINOS HAVE LESS ABILITY TO
COMPETE IN THE MONEY GAME, AND
THE MONEY GAME IS A BIG PART OF
THE REAL GAME WHO IS ELECTED AND
WHO DOESN'T AND WHAT LAWS ARE
PASSED AND WHAT AREN'T, AND WHAT
POLICIES ARE PURSUED AND WHAT
ARE JUNKED, AND SO THEY ARE IN A
DISADVANTAGE THAT WAY.
WE AT THE WISCONSIN DEMOCRACY
CAMPAIGN LOOKED AT TOP 50 DONORS
TO DEMOCRATS AND TOP 50 DONORS
TO REPUBLICANS, AND WE COULD
FIND ONLY ONE PERSON WHO WAS NOT
WHITE, AND SO, YOU KNOW, IF THE
FUNDING IS BEING DONE PRIMARILY
BY WHITE FOLKS, YOU KNOW,
CHANCES ARE THE LAWS THAT ARE
BEING PASSED OR THE POLICIES
PURSUED ARE NOT REALLY
REFLECTING THE NEEDS AND
INTERESTS OF THE FOLKS WHO ARE
NOT WHITE.
>> NOW, I, PARTICULARLY, LIKED
THE CHAPTER ON SAVING LOCAL
MEDIA AS WELL AS HOW TO HAVE A
RESPECTFUL DIALOGUE.
ARE PEOPLE TOO ENTRENCHED IN
THEIR OWN ECHO CHAMBERS, AND IS
THAT CONTRIBUTING TO THIS
EROSION OF DEMOCRACY?
>> I DO THINK IT IS POISONOUS
FOR THE OUR DEMOCRACY TO HAVE
PEOPLE IN THEIR OWN CAMPS, IN
THEIR OWN MEDIA ECOSYSTEMS, YOU
KNOW, YOU CAN BE A LEFTY AND
WATCHMSNBC AND "MEET THE
NATION," OR BE A PROGRESSIVE AND
DEMOCRACY NOW ON THE RADIO, AND
LIVE IN MADISON AND NOT BUMP
INTO ANYBODY WHO DISAGREES WITH
YOU AND BE A RIGHT WINGER
ELSEWHERE IN THE STATE AND
LISTEN TO FOX NEWS AND READING
RIGHT WING STUFF ON THE TABLETS,
AND BECAUSE OF THE ALGORITHMS,
YOU ARE FED MORE AND MORE OF
THAT STUFF AND YOU'RE IN
SEPARATE MEDIA UNIVERSES AND
SEPARATE CAMPS, AND YOU VIEW THE
OTHER PERSON AS NOT ONLY HAVING
DIFFERENT IDEAS THAN YOU HAVE,
BUT AS BEING EVIL AND AS BEING,
YOU KNOW, TOTALLY OFF THE
CHARTS, SOMEONE YOU CAN'T EVEN
HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH, AND I
THINK WE NEED MORE CONVERSATIONS
ACROSS THE AISLE.
WE NEED TO FIND FORUMS WHERE WE
CAN HAVE CIVIL DIALOGUE AND SO
I'M LOOKING FOR THOSE FORUMS.
I'M HOPING TO HAVE MORE OF THEM
HERE IN WISCONSIN, AND WE CAN'T
GIVE UP ON EACH OTHER.
I MEAN, HALF OF THE PEOPLE OF
WISCONSIN VOTED FOR A CANDIDATE
THAT THE OTHER HALF DIDN'T.
NOW, NOT EVERYBODY IN THE OTHER
SIDE IS AN EVIL PERSON, AND WE
GOT TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE CAN
FIRST LISTEN TO EACH OTHER.
I THINK THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.
TRY TO CONNECTS WITH OTHER
PEOPLE, UNLESS, OF COURSE, THE
OTHER PEOPLE ARE, YOU KNOW,
WAVING CONFEDERATE FLAGS AND
HAVE SWASTIKA TATTOOS ON THE
MUSCLES, I'M NOT A LEFT WING
JEWISH ATHEIST GOING TO ENGAGE
IN A CONVERSATION WITH THAT
PERSON BECAUSE IT COULD BE
DANGEROUS FOR ME, FRANKLY, BUT
THAT'S THE MAJORITY OF THE
PEOPLE WHO VOTED IN WAYS
DIFFERENT THAN I DO OR VIEW THE
WORLD IN A WAY DIFFERENT THAN I
DO.
THERE'S SO MANY PEOPLE IN THE
STATE, AND I HAVE SOME FRIENDS
WHO ARE IN THIS CATEGORY TOO,
REALLY GOOD PEOPLE, NICE PEOPLE,
DID NOT VOTE THE WAY I VOTED.
I'M TRYING TO HAVE CONVERSATIONS
WITH MANY OF THEM, AND I THINK
WE NEED TO BRING PEOPLE BACK
FROM THE ABYSS OF
ANTI-DEMOCRACY.
I SEE THIS ANTI-DEMOCRACY
MOVEMENT SWEEPING THIS COUNTRY,
AND ALIVE AND KICKING HERE IN
WISCONSIN, AND IT SCARES THE
BEJESUS OUT OF ME, FRANKLY.
>> AND, SINCE THE PANDEMIC, I
MEAN, THERE'S WAYS IN WHICH
WE'VE BECOME MORE ISOLATED, BUT
THERE'S ALSO WAYS IN WHICH THE
INTERNET HAS ALLOWED US TO
BECOME MORE CONNECTED, SO,
DEFINITELY TWO SIDES OF THE COIN
THERE, SO YOUR FINAL CHAPTER IS
ON HOPE.
WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT TO YOU,
AND HOW DO YOU FORESEE MOVEMENTS
ON THE IDEAS THAT YOU HAVE LAID
OUT IN THIS BOOK?
>> WELL, YEAH.
HOPE IS SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO
HAVE JUST TO GET OUT OF BED IN
THE MORNING, AND IF YOU'RE A
POLITICAL PERSON, YOU NEED TO
HAVE IT; OTHERWISE, YOU WOULDN'T
ENGAGE IN THIS POLITICS, AND I
ALSO HAVE HOPE BECAUSE I WORK
WITH A LOT OF TREMENDOUS
PRO-DEMOCRACY NONPROFITS, AND
ACTIVISTS WITHIN AND OUTSIDE
THOSE NONPROFITS HERE IN
WISCONSIN.
WE'RE LUCKY IN THIS STATE TO
HAVE SO MANY GROUPS OUT THERE
DOING SUCH GREAT WORK.
I'M REFERRING TO, LIKE, THE
LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS, A
TREMENDOUS ORGANIZATION.
COMMON CAUSE, BLOCK, LIP, THE
AFRICAN-AMERICAN ROUND TABLE,
WISCONSIN CONSERVATION VOTERS,
WISCONSIN FARMERS UNION.
THEY ARE JUST SO MANY GOOD
ORGANIZATIONS DOING GREAT WORK
ACROSS THE STATE, AND I TRAVEL
AROUND THE STATE GIVING TALKS,
AT LEAST I DID SO BEFORE COVID,
AND I WOULD MEET THESE FOLKS ALL
THE TIME JUST DOING GREAT WORK
IN EVERY COMMUNITY, AND LOOK AT
THE CIVIL RIGHTS PROTESTS THAT
HAPPENED A YEAR AND A HALF AGO.
THEY HAPPENED IN MORE THAN 48
COMMUNITIES.
MANY OF THESE COMMUNITIES HAD
NEVER SEEN A CIVIL RIGHTS
PROTEST, YOU KNOW, IN THEIR
LIVES, AND SO THAT'S ENCOURAGING
TO ME, AND SO I TAKE HOPE FROM
THAT.
I ALSO TAKE HOPE FROM THE
TEACHINGS OF HOWARD ZEN, WHO
WROTE FOR ME WHEN I WAS AT THE
PROGRESSIVE FOR MANY YEARS AND
ALSO WORKED FOR RALPH NADER OUT
OF COLLEGE, BOTH STRESSING THE
NEED FOR CITIZEN ACTIVISM AND
NEED FOR NON-VIOLENT MASS
MOVEMENTS, AND THOSE ARE THINGS
THAT GIVE ME HOPE STILL TO THIS
DAY.
>> NOW, TOMORROW IS THE ONE-YEAR
ANNIVERSARY OF THE INSURRECTION
ON THE U.S. CAPITOL.
DO YOU THINK STRENGTHENING
DEMOCRACY NATIONWIDE THROUGH
IDEAS YOU PUT FORTH IN THIS BOOK
COULD PREVENT SOMETHING LIKE
THAT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN EITHER
AT THE U.S. CAPITOL OR EVEN HERE
IN OUR OWN STATE?
>> WELL, I THINK WE NEED
SOMETHING MORE EVEN THAN THE
IDEAS SKETCHED INTO THE BOOK,
FRANKLY.
I THINK, FIRST OF ALL, GARLAND,
UNITED STATES ATTORNEY OF THE
UNITED STATES, HAS A LEGAL,
MORAL, AND HISTORICAL OBLIGATION
TO INDICT DONALD TRUMP FOR
ELECTION TAMPERING AND
CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT SUBVERSION.
DONALD TRUMP NEEDS TO BE HELD
ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE CRIMES
AGAINST OUR DEMOCRACY.
WHEN YOU ARE THE PRESIDENT OF
THE UNITED STATES AND YOU CALL
UP THE SECRETARY OF STATE OF
GEORGIA SAY, JUST GIVE ME 11,780
VOTES, THAT'S THE VERY
DEFINITION OF ELECTION
TAMPERING.
WHEN HE WAS PLOTTING WITH PEOPLE
IN THE OVAL OFFICE ABOUT, YOU
KNOW, SIX WAYS HE COULD OVERTURN
THE ELECTION AND NOT HAVE VICE
PRESIDENT PENCE RATIFY THE
ELECTORAL COLLEGE VOTES, THAT'S
CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT SUBVERSION.
HE NEEDS TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.
ON TOP OF THAT, WE HAVE TO DO
THINGS TO PREVENT A PRESIDENT IN
THE FUTURE FROM OVERTURNING OUR
DEMOCRACY.
ONE OF THOSE THINGS IS TO TAKE
OFF THE BOOKS THE INSURRECTION
ACT.
THERE'S A LAW CALLED THE
INSURRECTION ACT THAT ALLOWS THE
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
TO PUT U.S. TROOPS IN THE
STREETS OF THIS COUNTRY.
TRUMP, ON JANUARY 19th, 2021
COULD HAVE INVOKED THE
INSURRECTION ACT TO STAY IN
POWER.
THERE'S ALSO THE NATIONAL
EMERGENCY ACT ALLOWING THE
PRESIDENT AND PRESIDENT ALONE TO
DECLARE A NATIONAL EMERGENCY FOR
30 DAYS AND BASICALLY SUSPEND
OUR SYSTEM OF CHECKS AND
BALANCES.
I MEAN, WE CANNOT LEAVE THESE
LOADED GUNS IN THE TOP DRAWER OF
THE OVAL OFFICE FOR THE NEXT
DONALD TRUMP WHO COMES IN.
>> ALL RIGHT.
WE NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE.
MATT ROTHSCHILD, AUTHOR OF "12
WAYS TO SAVE DEMOCRACY IN
WISCONSIN," THANK YOU FOR THE
CONVERSATION.
>> MY PLEASURE.
THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON.
>> FOR MORE FROM "HERE & NOW"
AND PBS WISCONSIN, YOU CAN VISIT
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"NOON WEDNESDAY."