>>> WELCOME TO "NOON WEDNESDAY,"
I'M MARISA WOJCIK, MULTIMEDIA
JOURNALIST WITH "HERE & NOW" ON
PBS WISCONSIN, AND TODAY IS
NOVEMBER 17.
ON AVERAGE, IN WISCONSIN, AT
LEAST 20,000 PEOPLE GO OUT
SUITABLE HOUSING NIGHTLY.
AS THE COLD WINTER MONTHS
APPROACH, LAWMAKERS CONTINUE TO
STALL ON FUNDING INITIATIVES TO
ADDRESS THE PROBLEM.
JOE VOLK, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF
THE COALITION AGAINST
HOMELESSNESS JOINS ME TO DISCUSS
THIS, AND, JOE, THANK YOU FOR
BEING HERE.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME
AGAIN.
>> SO THAT ESTIMATE OF 20 ,000,
IS THAT PEOPLE IN SHELTERS,
PEOPLE IN TENTS?
DO WE KNOW EXACTLY HOW MANY
PEOPLE ARE WITHOUT HOMES?
>> WELL, OF COURSE, TRYING TO
COUNT THE HOMELESS IS ALWAYS A
PROBLEM AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, OF
COURSE, TWO DEFINITIONS AND TWO
WAYS OF ACCOUNTING.
THAT, 20,000 FIGURE, IT IS
SOMETHING THE COALITION HAS COME
UP WITH AS AN ESTIMATE, AND THAT
INCLUDES PEOPLE IN SHELTERS,
PEOPLE OUT ON THE STREET, AND
ALSO PEOPLE DOUBLING UP.
IF YOU GOT SOMEBODY THAT'S
LIVING IN THE BASEMENT, LET'S
SAY, OF AN APARTMENT BUILDING
BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOTHING ELSE,
NOWHERE ELSE TO STAY, IT WOULD
ALSO INCLUDE THEM.
>> HAS HOMELESSNESS INCREASED
DURING THE PANDEMIC, AND HAS THE
PANDEMIC CHANGED WHO THIS
POPULATION IS?
>> ALMOST ABSOLUTELY NOT ONLY IN
WISCONSIN, BUT FRANKLY,
NATIONWIDE.
WE ARE NOW LOOKING AT 15%
INCREASE, AND DURING THE
PANDEMIC, ACTUALLY, EVERYTHING
STAYED PRETTY STABLE, AND THERE
WAS -- AND IN MOST PART, BECAUSE
OF THE RENT MORATORIUM, BECAUSE
OF THE EVICTION MORATORIUM, BUT
THAT'S NOW GONE, AND HAS BEEN
GONE NOW FOR ABOUT TWO MONTHS,
AND SO I THINK ONE OF THE TESTS
IS IS THAT PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO
SEE A LOT MORE PEOPLE THAT ARE
ACTUALLY LIVING OUTSIDE, WHAT WE
CALL UNSHELTERED HOMELESSNESS.
IN MADISON IS RIGHT NOW
GRAPPLING WITH TRYING TO MOVE
PEOPLE OUT OF PARKS THAT HAVE
BEEN LIVING IN TENTS, AND TO
THIS ALTERNATIVE ON THE EDGE OF
TOWN.
MILWAUKEE HAS THE SAME PROBLEM
IN TERMS OF THE MARTIN LUTHER
KING PARK.
AWAY LACROSSE IS TRYING TO MOVE
PEOPLE OUT OF PARKS.
WHAT YOU ARE SEEING AND DIDN'T
SEE ALL OF THAT BEFORE IN
WISCONSIN IS ENCAMPMENTS LIKE
THE 1920s AND '30s.
>> SO THIS IS OFTEN SEEN AS AN
ISSUE IN BIGGER CITIES.
YOU MENTIONED MADISON,
MILWAUKEE, LACROSSE, BUT IS THIS
HAPPENING IN CITIES ACROSS
WISCONSIN?
DO WE HAVE AN IDEA OF HOW THIS
EXISTS ACROSS THE STATE?
>> WE DO.
AND IT DOES EXIST THROUGHOUT THE
ENTIRE STATE.
ONE OF THE WAYS THAT WE KNOW
THAT IN TERMS OF A DATA POINT IS
THAT WISCONSIN DEPARTMENT OF
PUBLIC INSTRUCTION KEEPS TRACK
OF HOW MANY HOMELESS STUDENTS
THERE ARE EVERY YEAR IN THE
STATE OF WISCONSIN.
LAST YEAR, THEY FOUND THAT THERE
WERE JUST NORTH OF 18,000
HOMELESS KIDS DURING THE YEAR
THAT WERE IN SCHOOL, OF COURSE,
THAT DOESN'T COUNT KIDS NOT IN
SCHOOL, BUT THE POINT IS THAT
YOU CAN THEN LOOK AT THE NUMBERS
OF -- NUMBERS IN ALL OF THE
SCHOOL DISTRICTS THROUGHOUT THE
STATE, AND WHAT YOU WILL THEN
FIND IS THAT NEARLY EVERY
DISTRICT, 98% OF THE DISTRICTS,
HAD SOME HOMELESSNESS, WHICH
MEANS THAT THIS ALL 72 COUNTIES
IN WISCONSIN ARE EXPERIENCING
THIS.
IN RURAL AREAS, IT MAY NOT BE AS
VISIBLE AS 30, 40, 50 PEOPLE
LIVING IN TENTS IN A PARK, BUT
IT IS STILL THERE.
>> DO ANY FEDERAL PANDEMIC
DOLLARS GO TOWARDS ADDRESSING
HOMELESSNESS SPECIFICALLY?
>> YES.
FOR THE MOST PART, THEY'VE BEEN
IN TWO AREAS.
ONE WAS KIND OF A BLOCK GRANT
APPROACH THAT THE FEDS GAVE TO
THE STATES AND COUNTIES, AND
THAT'S WHAT'S BEEN USED TO HOUSE
PEOPLE IN LOCAL HOTELS.
PART OF THE PROBLEM, WHEN THE
PANDEMIC STARTED, OF COURSE, IS
THAT MOST OF THE SHELTERS ARE
KIND OF, LIKE, A CONGREGATION
KIND OF A SITE.
YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T SOCIAL
DISTANCE WHEN YOU GOT 70 PEOPLE
IN AN AUDITORIUM ROOM SLEEPING
NEXT TO EACH OTHER, SO THE
AMOUNT OF SHELTER SPACE THAT
THERE WAS THROUGHOUT THE STATE
JUST OVERNIGHT WAS BANNED, IF
NOT MORE, AND SO THE RESPONSE
WAS FOR THE CITY TO RENT HOTEL
ROOMS, AND THAT'S HAPPENED ALL
OVER THE STATE.
THE OTHER BIG ONE, WHICH
ACTUALLY PREVENTED A WHOLE SLEW
OF PEOPLE FROM BEING OUT ON THE
STREET IS THE FEDERAL RENT
ASSISTANCE THAT'S BEEN GOING ON
NOW, IS STILL GOING ON, WHICH
ALLOWS PEOPLE TO GET THEIR
BACKRENT IF THEY BECAME
UNEMPLOYED BECAUSE OF THE
PANDEMIC, WHICH IS PRETTY MUCH
EVERYBODY THESE DAYS THAT IS
UNEMPLOYED, SO BETWEEN THOSE TWO
THINGS, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
DID STEP IN AND TRY TO SOFTEN
THE BLOW, AND, ACTUALLY, DID A
FAIRLY GOOD JOB.
>> OUTSIDE OF THE FEDERAL
DOLLARS, IN THE STATE OF
WISCONSIN, THIS IS A BIPARTISAN
ISSUE.
LAWMAKERS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE
AISLE EXPRESSED INTEREST IN
ADDRESSING HOMELESSNESS AND SEE
IT AS A PROBLEM, BUT WHY DOES
THE LEGISLATURE, ITSELF,
CONTINUE TO STRUGGLE TO PASS
POLICY INITIATIVES OR FUNDING
THAT WILL ACTUALLY TAKE ACTION?
>> YEAH.
WELL, YOU KNOW, IT IS NOT EVEN
REALLY THE WHOLE LEGISLATURE.
IT IS ABOUT FOUR TO FIVE
SENATORS IN THE WISCONSIN STATE
SENATE.
WE HAVE A GREAT CHAMPION IN THE
WISCONSIN ASSEMBLY.
I MEAN, I SHOULD BACK UP.
WE HAVE A GREAT CHAMPION IN
TERMS OF THE CURRENT GOVERNOR,
WHO, IN HIS BUDGET, HAD A HUGE
STEP FORWARD IN TERMS OF FUNDING
FOR HOMELESS PROGRAMS THROUGHOUT
THE STATE.
WE HAVE A GREAT CHAMPION IN JIM
STEINEKE, WHO WAS THE REPUBLICAN
MAJORITY LEADER IN THE STATE
ASSEMBLY, AND HE'S BEEN VERY
ACTIVE AND WAS THE AUTHOR,
ESSENTIALLY, OF EIGHT BILLS IN
THE LAST SESSION, OF WHICH ONLY
ONE WAS PASSED BY THE SENATE.
IF YOU LOOK AT PAST ACTIONS, THE
STEINEKE BILLS PASSED THE SENATE
ON A 99-0 VOTE, AND -- BUT THE
SENATE REFUSED -- THE SENATE
LEADERSHIP ACTUALLY REFUSED TO
JUST PUT THE BILLS ON THE FLOOR
OF THE SENATE, AND WHERE I THINK
THEY WOULD HAVE PASSED, THEY
WOULD HAVE GOTTEN, YOU KNOW,
VOTES, SO IT IS REALLY JUST
FOUR, FIVE VERY CONSERVATIVE
REPUBLICAN SENATORS IN THE
SENATE THAT IS BLOCKING
INITIATIVES FROM THE GOVERNOR
AND FROM THE REPUBLICAN-LED
ASSEMBLY.
>> AND IN THE ASSEMBLY,
LEGISLATION INTRODUCED LAST
MONTH WOULD INCLUDE PAY-FO
PAY-FOR-PRFORMANCE GRANTS AS
WELL AS A PROVISION TO
CRIMINALIZE AND FINE PEOPLE WHO
ARE HOMELESS ENCAMPED ON PUBLIC
PROPERTY THAT HAS NOT BEEN
DESIGNATED FOR THAT PURPOSE.
WHAT IS YOUR OPINION OF THOSE
INITIATIVES?
DOES IT WORK TO FINE PEOPLE WHO
ARE IN THESE ENCAMPMENTS IF IT
IS NOT ZONED OR SPECIFICALLY
DESIGNATED FOR THAT PURPOSE?
>> RIGHT.
WELL, LET ME JUST SAY THAT WAS
AN ILL-GOTTEN IDEA.
AND, IN FACT, THE ASSEMBLY
REPUBLICANS EVEN FIGURED THAT
OUT BECAUSE THEY PULLED THAT
BEFORE EVEN VOTING FOR IT.
THEN THEY HAD A NUMBER OF OTHER
BILLS THAT WOULD ATTEMPT TO
INCREASE BY INCENTIVIZING TO
INVESTORS THE NUMBER OF LOW
INCOME HOUSING UNITS IN THE
STATE.
IN FACT, I THINK WHEN YOU
COMPARE THE GOVERNOR'S
INITIATIVE, ESPECIALLY IN THE
AREA OF CREATING NEW LOW INCOME
HOUSING TO THE ASSEMBLY VERSION,
THE GOVERNOR'S PACKAGE WOULD
HAVE CERTAINLY DONE MUCH, MUCH,
MUCH MORE, BUT BESIDES THE ONE
BILL THAT WAS NOT VERY
WELL-THOUGHT OUT IN TERMS OF
TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, CRIMINALIZE
ESSENTIALLY PEOPLE BEING WITHOUT
A PLACE TO STAY, IT WASN'T -- AT
LEAST ANOTHER ATTEMPT BY THE
ASSEMBLY TO EVEN TAKE UP THESE
ISSUES WHEN WITH THEY -- EVEN
THOUGH, YOU KNOW, THINGS GET
STYMIED IN THE SENATE.
>> SO CAN YOU DESCRIBE SOME OF
THE EFFORTS THAT CITIES,
THEMSELVES, OR LOCAL COMMUNITIES
ARE TAKING TO REALLY TAKE ACTION
AND ADDRESS HOMELESSNESS AND TO
REALLY SHELTER PEOPLE AS WE ARE
APPROACHING WINTER MONTHS AS IT
IS ALREADY STARTING TO GET COLD,
FROST OUTSIDE IN THE MORNING
WHEN I TAKE MY DOG OUT, YOU
KNOW, IT IS GOING TO GET COLDER.
WHAT IS IN THE WORKS TO TRY AND
ALLEVIATE SOME OF THIS PRESSURE?
>> WELL, FORTUNATELY, THERE'S
STILL FUNDING FROM THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT GOING TO THE STATE
AND CITIES AND COUNTIES THAT
MANY COUNTIES AND CITIES
THROUGHOUT THE STATE ARE GOING
TO CONTINUE TO RENT HOTEL ROOMS
FOR PEOPLE OVER THE WINTER, AND
SO THAT'S GOING TO CONTINUE.
THE RENT, THE EVICTION
PREVENTION PROGRAM IN THE AREA
OF RENT ASSISTANCE, THAT IS
GOING TO CONTINUE SO THAT PEOPLE
THAT DO GET BEHIND IN THEIR RENT
WILL HAVE A WAY TO GET THAT
RESOLVED.
CITIES ARE STRUGGLING IN THE
AREA OF THESE ENCAMPMENTS THAT
HAVE SPRUNG UP DUE IN LARGE PART
TO THE PANDEMIC.
AS YOU KNOW, AS YOU MAY KNOW,
MADISON, THE CITY OF MADISON,
HAS BEEN STRUGGLING WITH A
NUMBER OF ENCAMPMENTS IN PARKS
THAT THEY ARE NOW TRYING TO, YOU
KNOW, THEY'VE -- NOT -- AND I'M
NOT SURE THIS IS A VERY GOOD
IDEA, BUT THEY HAVE ACTUALLY,
LIKE, BOUGHT A LARGE PARCEL OF
LAND ON THE OUTSKIRTS OF TOWN,
AND THEY ARE BASICALLY BUILDING
8 BY 8-FOOT SHELTERS WHERE,
APPARENTLY, THE HEAT IS NOT
GOING TO BE ADEQUATE FOR THE
WINTER, THERE'S NO SANITATION,
EXCEPT YOU HAVE TO WALK OVER TO
THE OTHER BUILDING SO YOU CAN
IMAGINE PEOPLE, IF IT IS 5 BELOW
AND HAVE TO GO TO THE BATHROOM,
THEY HAVE TO WALK TO DO THAT.
I'M NOT SURE THAT IS A GOOD
SOLUTION, BUT IT JUST SHOWS
WHERE WE'VE COME.
I MEAN, YOU KNOW, WE'RE NOW
TALKING ABOUT CITY SPONSORED
ENCAMPMENTS, AND THAT'S
SOMETHING THAT WE CERTAINLY
PRE-PANDEMIC WOULD CERTAINLY NOT
HAVE SEEN.
>> THERE HAS BEEN TALK, YEAH,
FOR MANY YEARS ABOUT TINY HOMES
FOR THE HOMELESS, AND IT'S NEVER
REALLY TAKEN OFF.
DO YOU THINK THAT THE VISIBILITY
AND PEOPLE BEING ABLE TO
ACTUALLY SEE MORE OF THESE
ENCAMPMENTS, DO YOU THINK THAT
IS KIND OF FORCING THE ISSUE?
DOES VISIBILITY CREATE AND
WARENESS TO CREATE ACTION?
>> WELL, I'M SURE IT DOES, AND
THAT AND PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, PARKS
TEND TO BE NEXT TO
NEIGHBORHOODS, AND WHAT'S
PROBABLY CREATING SOME POLITICAL
POINT OF VIEW IN TERMS OF MAKING
THE CITY SUCH AS MADISON DO
SOMETHING IS THAT THE
NEIGHBORHOOD, OBVIOUSLY, IS NOT
VERY PLEASED ABOUT THEIR PARK
BEING TURNED INTO A HOMELESS
ENCAMPMENT, BUT, YOU KNOW, WITH
WHAT CITY'S DOING NOW WITH THIS
DEVELOPMENT OUT ON DAIRY DRIVE,
THAT'S NOT -- THOSE ARE NOT EVEN
TINY HOUSES.
I MEAN, THEY ARE LITERALLY
8 FEET BY 8 FEET STRUCTURES WITH
A BED IN THEM, AND THE HOOTER
-- HEATERTHAT CAN APPARENTLY BT
40-DEGREES HIGHER THAN IT IS
OUTSIDE, WITH NO TOILET, NO
SINK, AND THAT'S HOW THEY ARE
GOING TO -- I MEAN, ONE COULD
ARGUE THAT, YOU KNOW, MAYBE IT
IS BETTER THAN A TENT, WELL,
OKAY, FINE, BETTER THAN A TENT,
BUT, CERTAINLY, A GOVERNMENT CAN
DO BETTER THAN TRYING TO HOUSE
PEOPLE FOR THE WINTER IN 8 BY 8
SHANTIES.
>> WHERE SHOULD THE LEGISLATURE
PUT ITS EFFORTS, AND IS THIS
EVENTUALLY GOING TO JUST FALL ON
CITIES AND COUNTIES TO REALLY
WORK WITH THEIR OWN BUDGETS IN
TRYING TO FIGURE OUT SOLUTIONS,
OR IS THERE SOMETHING THAT YOU
BELIEVE THE LEGISLATURE SHOULD
BE FOCUSING ON?
>> YEAH.
I MEAN, BASICALLY, ONE OF THE
THINGS THAT WE FOUND WITH ALL OF
THE FEDERAL MONEY AROUND IS THAT
CITIES AND COUNTIES AND
NONPROFIT PROVIDERS, THERE'S
BEEN MONEY TO MOVE PEOPLE INTO
HOUSING.
THE PROBLEM IS THAT WE'VE FOUND
OUT THERE'S NOT ENOUGH HOUSING.
SO IN THE GOVERNOR'S BUDGET, FOR
INSTANCE, HE HAD ABOUT
$50 MILLION IN THERE TO INCREASE
LOW INCOME HOUSING THROUGHOUT
THE STATE, AND THAT'S REALLY
WHERE THE LEGISLATURE NEEDS TO
BE MORE FORCEFUL AND INVOLVED
BECAUSE EVEN WHEN WE HAD THESE
FEDERAL RESOURCES TO GET HOUSING
FOR PEOPLE, AND, I MEAN, IT WAS
NOT A QUESTION OF THE MONEY.
IT WAS NOT A QUESTION THAT WE
COULDN'T COME UP WITH THE RENT
AND DEPOSIT.
WE HAD ALL OF THAT.
THERE WAS JUST LITERALLY NO LOW
INCOME HOUSING TO BE HAD, AND SO
THAT'S THE CHALLENGE FOR THE
STATE, TO REALLY RESOLVE THIS
PROBLEM.
>> DOES THIS, AT ALL, GO BEYOND
HOUSING?
IS THIS MORE THAN A HOUSING
ISSUE?
IS REALLY THE CRUX OF IT THE
FACT THAT AFFORDABL HOUSING IS
JUST NOT AVAILABLE, AND THAT
CONTINUES TO SQUEEZE PEOPLE'S
BUDGETS MORE AND MORE AND MORE,
ESPECIALLY DURING THESE TOUGH
TIMES?
>> YEAH.
I MEAN, FOR INSTANCE, THE LOW
INCOME HOUSING COALITION IN DC
DOES A STATE-BY-BY STATE
ANALYSIS, YOU KNOW, HOW MUCH IT
COSTS A FAMILY TO LIVE, AND IN A
TWO-BEDROOM APARTMENT, AND HOW
LONG THEY HAVE TO WORK AND HOW
MANY JOBS THEY HAVE TO WORK IN
TERMS OF BEING ABLE TO DO THAT.
I MEAN, LET'S PUT IT THIS WAY.
THERE'S A REASON WHY IF YOU GET
A MORTGAGE, THE BANK WILL ONLY
LET YOU SPEND 30% TO 35% OF THE
INCOME ON HOUSING, RIGHT?
BECAUSE THEY KNOW ANY MORE THAN
THAT, YOU ARE AT RISK OF NOT
BEING ABLE TO MAKE THE PAYMENT.
WELL, IN WISCONSIN, WE HAVE 50%
OF THE POPULATION PAYING 50%,
60%, 70%, TO 80% FOR THEIR
HOUSING SO IT SHOULD BE NO
SURPRISE THEN THAT THE LITTLEST
THING, MUCH LESS A PANDEMIC, IN
THESE PEOPLE'S LIVES IS GOING TO
CAUSE THEM NOT TO BE ABLE TO PAY
THEIR RENT.
>> EVENTUALLY, THESE FEDERAL
RENTAL ASSISTANCE DOLLARS WILL
RUN OUT.
THERE'S DEFINITELY PLENTY LEFT,
BUT, YOU KNOW, WITHIN A YEAR OR
SO, THEY WILL RUN OUT.
WILL WE SEE MORE PEOPLE FALLING
OFF THAT CLIFF INTO
HOMELESSNESS?
>> WELL, I THINK IT IS -- I
THINK IT IS UNCLEAR, TO BE
HONEST WITH YOU.
IT DEPENDS WHERE WE ARE, TO SOME
EXTENT, IN REGARDS TO THE
PANDEMIC AND THE ECONOMY.
THE PANDEMIC UPENDED EVERYTHING,
RIGHT?
I MEAN, FROM JOBS TO HEALTHCARE
TO HOMELESSNESS, AND ALL OF
THESE KINDS OF THINGS.
IT WOULD BE A GOOD THING TO A
CERTAIN EXTENT IF IN A YEAR AND
A HALF, LET'S SAY, WHEN THE RENT
ASSISTANCE FUNDS WIND DOWN, IF
WE GET BACK TO PRE-PANDEMIC
LEVELS.
AGAIN, I WOULD -- I, YOU KNOW,
WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW, WE HAVE
CITY SPONSORED, "GRAPES OF
WRATH" PLACES WHERE PEOPLE ARE
LIVING, AND THAT, YOU KNOW,
TAKES YOU BACK TO THE GREAT
DEPRESSION IN 1929.
THAT'S WHERE WE ARE NOW.
SOMETHING WOULD WOULD BE TO GET
TO PRE-PANDEMIC LEVELS WHERE WE
DID NOT SEE THAT AT LEAST.
>> ALL RIGHT.
WE NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE.
JOE VOLK OF THE WISCONSIN
COALITION AGAINST HOMELESSNESS,
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING
US TODAY.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> FOR MORE FROM "HERE & NOW"
AND PBS WISCONSIN, VISIT
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