>>> WELCOME TO "NOON
WEDNESDAY," I'M MARISA WOJCIK,
MULTIMEDIA JOURNALIST WITH "HERE
& NOW" ON PBS WISCONSIN.
TODAY IS OCTOBER 27.
AFTER TEN YEARS SINCE WISCONSIN
LAST REDREW POLITICAL LINES,
REDISTRICTING IS HAPPENING
AGAIN.
NOW STATEWIDE.
THE LAST TIME THIS PROCESS
HAPPENED IN 2011 WAS SO
SIGNIFICANT THAT IT CHANGED THE
NATURE OF WISCONSIN POLITICS FOR
THE NEXT DECADE.
IN FACT, IT WAS SO IMPORTANT TO
WISCONSIN'S HISTORY THAT TWO
WISCONSIN PUBLIC RADIO
JOURNALISTS MADE AN ENTIRE
PODCAST SERIES ABOUT IT CALLED,
"WPR PRESENTS: MAPPED OUT" AND
BRIDGIT BOWDEN AND SHAWN JOHNSON
JOIN ME NOW.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING
HERE.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.
>> SO, BRIDGIT, I'LL START WITH
YOU.
THE SERIES, BY THE WAY, WHICH IS
JUST AMAZING.
IT IS SO RICH IN AUDIO AND
CONTENT, BUT IT STARTS BY
CONTRASTING THE SCENE OF THE
2011AFTON PROTESTS OUTSIDE THE
CAPITOL.
WAS THAT OF THE REPUBLICAN HIRED
LAWYERS WHO ARE ACROSS THE
STREET QUIETLY WORKING AWAY
INSIDE THE MAP ROOM, THEN TAKES
US THROUGH THE HISTORY TO WHERE
WE ARE TODAY WITH THE EPISODE
CALLED "LOCKED IN."
THIS IS A COMPLEX TOPIC.
IS IT FOR THOSE WHO NEED A
LITTLE BIT OF A HISTORY LESSON?
>> I THINK THAT THE PODCAST IS
REALLY FOR BOTH GROUPS OF
PEOPLE.
WE START OUT IN EPISODE ONE WITH
A VERY BASIC LESSON ABOUT WHAT
IS REDISTRICTING.
IF YOU ARE ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE
WHO IS STARTING AT SQUARE ONE
AND HAS NOT REALLY HEARD OF
REDISTRICTING BEFORE, WE GOT
YOU.
START WITH EPISODE ONE AND LEARN
ALL ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS AND THE
IMPACTS MUCH REDISTRICTING, AND
IN THE LATER EPISODES, WE GET
INTO THE MEATY DETAILS ABOUT
WHAT HAPPENED IN 2011, WHAT IT
MEANT FOR THE STATE, AND ALSO
WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN THIS
YEAR, SO I THINK THAT BOTH OF
THOSE GROUPS OF PEOPLE WOULD
ENJOY THIS PODCAST.
>> AND, SHAWN, WHAT DID
WISCONSIN'S MAPS AND THE
LANDSCAPE OF STATE POLITICS LOOK
LIKE BEFORE AND AFTER THE MAPS
WERE DRAWN, AND JUST WHY EXACTLY
WERE 2011 MAPS SO CONSEQUENTIAL?
>> WELL, IF YOU LOOK AT JUST A
COUPLE YEARS BEFORE THESE MAPS
WERE DRAWN, AND IT IS HARD TO
IMAGINE NOW, BUT WE HAD
DEMOCRATIC CONTROL OF STATE
GOVERNMENT IN WISCONSIN, AND,
REALLY, WE SHOULD SAY MORE
BROADLY, YOU HAD A DEMOCRAT IN
THE WHITE HOUSE, DEMOCRATIC
CONTROL OF CONGRESS, DEMOCRATIC
CONTROLLED EVERYTHING, AND, YOU
KNOW, THE WAY THINGS TYPICALLY
GO AND HAVE HISTORICALLY GONE IN
THOSE SITUATIONS IS IN THE
MIDTERM ELECTION, THE PARTY OUT
OF POWER HAS A GOOD YEAR, AND
THAT WAS THE CASE FOR
REPUBLICANS IN 2010, AND THEY
WERE, YOU KNOW, SWEPT INTO POWER
IN 2011, AND JUST HAD, YOU KNOW,
ENORMOUS PENT UP AGENDA THAT,
YOU KNOW, THEY PASSED THAT YEAR
THAT I THINK YOU COULD
DEFINITELY SAY WILL, YOU KNOW,
BE A PART OF WISCONSIN'S HISTORY
FOR YEARS TO COME WHEN YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT CHANGING UNION
RIGHTS, FIREARM LAWS, YOU KNOW,
YOU NAME IT, THIS WAS A CHANCE
FOR REPUBLICANS TO DO WHAT THEY
WANTED TO DO.
AS PART OF THAT, THEY PASSED
THIS MAP, AND THAT ALLOWS THEM
TO, YOU KNOW, BORROW FROM THE
TITLE OF TODAY "LOCK IN" THAT
SESSION, AND BEYOND THAT FOR THE
NEXT DECADE, THERE'S NEVER
REALLY IN ANY THREAT OF LOSING
THE MAJORITY, AND SO YOU SAW AN
AMBITIOUS REPUBLICAN AGENDA
THROUGHOUT THE DECADE.
>> BRIDGIT, YOU SPOKE TO
WISCONSIN PEOPLE WHO LIVED THE
IMPACTS OF THE MA'AM AND THOSE
WHO TRIED TO RUN FOR STATE
LEGISLATURE.
WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM THOSE
PERSONAL STORIES?
>> RIGHT.
SO WE WANTED TO TRAVEL TO
VARIOUS PARTS OF THE STATE AND
LOOK AT WHAT THIS 2011 MAP
REALLY MEANT SO WE LOOKED AT THE
MAPS, AND WE SAW A FEW PLACES
WHERE THERE WERE DISTINCT
CHANGES THAT HAPPENED IN THE
2011 SO WE WENT AND FOUND SOME
PEOPLE WHO COULD TELL US WHAT IT
MEANT, PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THOSE
PLACES.
SO WE TALKED TO A WOMAN WHO
LIVES IN FOREST, WISCONSIN, FOR
EXAMPLE, NORTH OF MADISON, AND
SHE'S A MEMBER OF THE VILLAGE
BOARD.
FOREST IN 2011 WAS SPLIT UP INTO
THREE DIFFERENT ASSEMBLY
DISTRICTS AND THREE DIFFERENT
SENATE DISTRICTS.
SO SHE TO TOLD US AS AN ELECTED
OFFICIAL, WHEN SHE TRIES TO TALK
TO STATE REPRESENTATIVES AND
SENATORS, SHE HAS TO CONTACT SIX
DIFFERENT PEOPLE BECAUSE THERE'S
SIX PEOPLE WHO REPRESENT THE
AREA OF FOREST, AND SO, YOU
KNOW, THAT'S A TANGIBLE IMPACT
OF THIS MAP.
WE ALSO WENT TO LECLAIRE WHERE
WE MET A WOMAN WHO TRIED TO RUN
FOR OFFICE.
SHE'S A DEMOCRAT.
SHE RAN IN A DISTRICT THAT IS
NOW A HEAVILY REPUBLICAN
DISTRICT, AND WHAT SHE TOLD US
IS SHE'LL NEVER TRY TO RUN AGAIN
BECAUSE SHE FEELS LIKE SHE
DOESN'T HAVE ANY SORT OF SHOT.
SO YOU CAN ACTUALLY SEE IN
PEOPLE'S REAL LIVES WHAT THE
2011 MAP DID ACROSS THE STATE.
>> AND, SHAWN, 2011'S MAPS
EVENTUALLY WOUND UP IN THE U.S.
SUPREME COURT WHERE THE IDEAS OF
A PARTISAN ADVANTAGE VERSUS A
PARTISAN GERRYMANDER WERE REALLY
PICKED APART AND PUT ON STAGE.
THIS CURRENT ROUND OF
REDISTRICTING HAPPENING RIGHT
NOW IS LIKELY TO ALSO END UP IN
THE COURT.
CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT IS THE
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THAT AND A
GERRYMANDER, AND WHY IS IT SO
DIFFICULT TO MAKE CHANGES,
PARTISAN GERRYMANDER
SPECIFICALLY.
>> I DON'T KNOW WHERE THE LINE
IS BETWEEN GERRYMANDER.
THE COURTS JUST DECIDED THEY
WILL NOT DRAW THE LINE,
ESPECIALLY THE FEDERAL COURT
SYSTEM DECIDED BECAUSE OF A
DECISION BY THE U.S. SUPREME
COURT THAT PARTISAN
GERRYMANDERING CASES ARE NOT
SOMETHING THAT THE FEDERAL COURT
SYSTEM IS GOING TO DECIDE.
THEY ARE NOT DENYING THAT
PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING, THE MAP
DRAWING THAT GIVES ONE PARTY THE
ADVANTAGE OVER ANOTHER, IS
HAPPENING.
THEY ARE JUST SAYING, WE ARE NOT
GOING TO DECIDE WHEN IT BECOMES
SO SEVERE THAT YOU HAVE VIOLATED
THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS OF THE
PARTY THAT IS NOT DRAWING THE
MAP, THE PARTY THAT IS NOT IN
POWER.
AND SO AS WE ENTER, YOU KNOW,
THE 2021-22 ROUND OF
REDISTRICTING, YOU KNOW, AS YOU
MENTIONED, WE KNOW THIS IS GOING
TO COURT.
WE ARE NOT QUITE SURE WHICH
COURT IS GOING TO DECIDE IT
BECAUSE RIGHT NOW IT IS BEFORE
THE STATE SUPREME COURT AND A
FEDERAL PANEL.
RIGHT NOW, THE STATE SUPREME
COURT GETS FIRST CRACK AT IT,
AND WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT THE,
YOU KNOW, THE HOPES OF SOME
DEMOCRATS SPECIFICALLY IN
WISCONSIN THAT WE'D HAVE, YOU
KNOW, KIND OF A BASELINE FOR
WHEN A MAP GETS TOO PARTISAN AND
THAT YOU CAN BRING THAT KIND OF
CASE IN 2021.
THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
THEY HAVE TO FIGHT THIS OUT ON
OTHER GROUNDS.
>> BRIDGIT, THERE'S AUDIO OF
ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER, A
REPUBLICAN, WITH THE PROSECUTION
FOLLOWING THE ARGUMENTS BEFORE
THE SUPREME COURT, AND IT IS
GREAT AUDIO.
HE SAYS AUSTA LA VISTA,
GERRYMANDERING.
SOME MAY SEE THIS AS A DEMOCRATS
VERSUS REPUBLICANS ISSUE.
NATIONALLY, IS IT BIPARTISAN, OR
IS IT ONE PARTY HAVING
DOMINATION OVER THE OTHER?
>> RIGHT.
SO YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
IN WISCONSIN THIS IS AN ISSUE
THAT WE MOSTLY HERE DEMOCRATS
CALLING FOR REDISTRICTING
REFORM, BUT ACROSS THE COUNTRY,
IT REALLY DEPENDS ON YOUR
POLITICAL CIRCUMSTANCES.
SO IN OTHER PLACES, MAYBE PLACES
LONG CONTROLLED BY DEMOCRATS
WHERE DEMOCRATS HAD CONTROL OVER
MAP DRAWING, THERE ARE
REPUBLICANS WHO ARE CALLING FOR
REDISTRICTING REFORM.
GREAT EXAMPLE OF THIS IS
ILLINOIS.
ILLINOIS IS CONTROLLED BY
DEMOCRATS, AND WE SEE REPUBLICAN
LAWMAKERS THERE ASKING FOR VERY
SIMILAR REFORMS AS WE HEAR FROM
WISCONSIN DEMOCRATS.
OTHER STATES LIKE MARYLAND HAVE
ALSO SEEN DEMOCRATIC
GERRYMANDERS, AND THEN YOU SEE
REPUBLICANS BEING THE ONES
ASKING FOR REFORM.
SO IT, YOU KNOW, IT IS AN ISSUE
THAT IS NOT ONE PARTY'S ISSUE OR
ANOTHER PARTY'S ISSUE, BUT IT
REALLY DEPENDS ON THE POLITICAL
CIRCUMSTANCES OF YOUR STATE.
IN OUR FINAL EPISODE, EPISODE 6,
YOU'LL HEAR MORE ABOUT THAT NEXT
WEEK, AND YOU'LL HEAR FROM OTHER
REPUBLICANS WHO CHAMPIONED THIS
ISSUE.
>> SO, SHAWN, IF WISCONSIN'S
CONSTITUTION SAYS THAT THE
LEGISLATURE MUST DRAW MAPS OF
THE LEGISLATURE'S OWN DISTRICTS,
ISN'T THAT A CONFLICT OF
INTEREST, AND AT THIS POINT, IF
THOSE DISTRICTS ARE ALREADY
LOCKED IN TO HAVE A CERTAIN
ADVANTAGE FOR REPUBLICANS, IS
THAT GOING TO CONTINUE TO
COMPOUND, AND IS THERE ANY WAY
OUT OF IT?
IS THERE ANY OTHER WAY THAT
THESE MAPS CAN OR SHOULD BE
DRAWN?
>> I THINK THE QUESTION OF
WHETHER IT'S A CONFLICT OF
INTEREST FOR THE LEGISLATURE, I
THINK WE CAN LOOK AT IT
PRACTICALLY AND SAY, YEAH, YOU
KNOW?
THEY HAVE A DEFINITE CONFLICT OF
INTEREST THERE JUST FROM A
PRACTICAL RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR
OWN EYES PERSPECTIVE, BUT IN
TERMS OF LAW, THE CONSTITUTION
SAYS THE LEGISLATURE DOES IT.
THE IDEA BEING THAT THE
LEGISLATURE IS THE VOICE OF THE
PEOPLE, AND SO IT IS DEFINITELY
WITHIN THEIR PURVIEW TO DO THAT.
YOU KNOW, THEY ARE GOING TO GET
A CHANCE TO DRAW THE MAPS.
ANYTHING THEY DO NEEDS APPROVAL
OF THE GOVERNOR, THOUGH.
THE GOVERNOR IS, RIGHT NOW,
DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR TONY EVERS,
AND HE'S ALREADY SENT CLEAR
SIGNS HE'S GOING TO VETO THE MAP
THAT REPUBLICANS HAVE DEVELOPED.
HE'S CALLING IT GERRYMANDERING
2.0.
SO THAT LEES US IN THE COURTS.
AND THERE IS A CHANCE THAT A
COURT, YOU KNOW, THE STATE
SUPREME COURT COULD SAY, LOOK,
WE DON'T WANT TO MESS WITH THE
MAP TOO MUCH.
WE'RE GOING TO MAKE AS FEW
CHANGES AS POSSIBLE OF THE
THAT'S WHAT REPUBLICANS HOPE THE
STATE SUPREME COURT WILL SAY.
THERE'S ALSO A CHANCE THE COURT,
IF IT'S NOT THE STATE SUPREME
COURT, IT COULD BE A FEDERAL
COURT.
SAYS WE ARE NOT BEHOLDEN TO LOOK
AT THIS MAP FROM A DECADE AGO.
WE'RE GOING TO REDRAW THIS MAP
USING, YOU KNOW, OBJECTIVE
CRITERIA AND, YOU KNOW, DO THE
BEST VERSION OF THE MAP WE CAN
DO RIGHT NOW IN 2021.
WE'RE NOT BEHOLDEN TO A DECISION
FROM THE LEGISLATURE OF 2011.
YOU -- I THINK AT THIS POINT IN
THE PROCESS YOU CAN DEFINITELY
SEE IT GOING EITHER WAY.
>> AND, BRIDGIT, YOU ALREADY
TOUCHED ON THIS A LITTLE BIT,
BUT WHAT CAN WE EXPECT FROM
FUTURE EPISODES?
YOU HAVE AN EPISODE NEXT WEEK,
BUT YOU ALSO TEASE A LITTLE BIT
THAT THERE MIGHT BE SOME MORE
COMING, EVEN FURTHER AFTER NEXT
WEEK?
>> YEAH.
SO NEXT WEEK, NEXT WEDNESDAY IS
THE LAST EPISODE OF OUR FIRST
BATCH OF EPISODES, AND IT IS
SORT OF ABOUT ALL OF THE OPTIONS
OF WHAT COULD HAPPEN THIS YEAR.
THAT SAID, REDISTRICTING IS
HAPPENING THIS YEAR.
WE WILL BE FOLLOWING UP
WHENEVER, WHATEVER WHAT
HAPPENSES IS GOING TO HAPPEN,
AND WE'LL FOLLOW UP WITH
EPISODES THAT KEEP YOU INFORMED
ON THAT.
>> ALL RIGHT.
AND LASTLY, SHAWN, YOU REPORTED
ON THIS FOR WPR AS IT WAS
HAPPENING THE LAST TEN YEARS.
DID ANYTHING SURPRISE YOU,
SPECIFICALLY, AS YOU DUG INTO
THE ARCHIVES?
TALKED WITH SOME OF THE KEY
PLAYERS.
WHAT SPECIFICALLY ARE YOU
LOOKING FOR AS THE CURRENT
POLITICAL FIGHT GOES FORWARD?
>> I THINK THAT WHENEVER YOU
SPEND A LOT OF TIME ON ONE
TOPIC, LIKE WE HAVE HERE, AND
YOU REALLY ANALYZE EVERYONE'S
WORDS FROM A DECADE AGO, I THINK
WHAT STRUCK ME IS JUST HOW, I
GUESS, FUZZY THE REDISTRICTING
CRITERIA THAT MAPMAKERS HAVE TO
FOLLOW.
YOU KNOW, YOU CAN DECIDE AS A
MAP MAKER, A LEGISLATOR, THAT
WE'RE GOING TO EMPHASIZE ONE
CRITERIA OVER HERE, MAYBE
KEEPING URBAN COMMUNITIES
TOGETHER, AND THEN IN ANOTHER
PART OF THE STATE SAY, WE'RE
GOING TO SPLIT THIS CITY APART,
SATISFYING TWO COMPLETELY
DIFFERENT CRITERIA, BUT AS LONG
AS YOU KIND OF SAY THAT'S WHAT
WE'RE DOING, WE'RE FOLLOWING
THESE CRITERIA, YOU HAVE A LOT
OF LEEWAY AS A LEGISLATOR,
ESPECIALLY WHEN THE GOVERNOR'S
FROM YOUR OWN PARTY.
I GUESS IT WAS JUST LISTENING
BACK TO SOME OF THE DEBATES AND
SOME OF WHAT SOUNDED AT THE TIME
LIKE REALLY, YOU KNOW, TECHNICAL
JARGIN.
NOW A DECADE LATER, YOU SEE WHY
IT WAS PRESENTED THAT WAY AND
THE POWER OF THOSE WORDS, AND
WHAT THEY ULTIMATELY MEANT, YOU
KNOW, THAT THAT IS KIND OF
FOUNDATION OF POWER IN WISCONSIN
IS THIS KIND OF GRAY AREA OF
WHAT MAKES A MAP OKAY.
>> ALL RIGHT.
WE LEAVE IT THERE.
SHAWN JOHNSON AND BRIDGIT
BOWDEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR
JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.
>> IT IS A REALLY GREAT SERIES.
YOU CAN FIND IT AT
WPR.ORG/PRESENTS, AND FOR MORE
FROM "HERE & NOW" AND PBS
WISCONSIN, VISIT
PBSWISCONSIN.ORG/NEWS.