>>> WELCOME TO "NOON WEDNESDAY,"
I'M MARISA WOJCIK MULTIMEDIA
JOURNALIST WITH "HERE & NOW" ON
PBS WISCONSIN.
TODAY IS SEPTEMBER 22.
FOR MANY REASONS, 2020 IS GOING
TO HAVE A LASTING IMPACT AND ONE
OF THOSE IS THE PRESIDENTIAL
ELECTION.
A RECENT SURVEY ASKED CLERKS AND
VOTERS ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCES
OF THE 2020 ELECTION, AND
JOINING ME TO TELL US ABOUT THAT
SURVEY AND THE RESULTS IS BARRY
BURDEN, A UW-MADISON PROFESSOR
OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AND
DIRECTOR OF THE ELECTIONS
RESEARCH CENTER, AND THANK YOU
SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
GLAD TO BE HERE.
>> FIRST, WITH VOTERS, WAS THERE
CONSENSUS FROM VOTERS ON HOW
THEY EXPERIENCED THE 2020
ELECTION, AND DID ANY GROUPS
REPORT PARTICULAR DIFFICULTY
VOTING?
>> YEAH.
SO THE STUDY, THE REPORT IS
BASED ON SURVEYS OF BOTH THE
PUBLIC AND LOCAL ELECTION
OFFICIALS, AND THE PUBLIC GAVE
THE ELECTION REALLY HIGH MARKS.
I ASKED THEM SPECIFICALLY IN THE
SURVEY WHETHER THEY ENCOUNTERED
DIFFICULTY, ESPECIALLY WITH THE
SHIFT TO ABSENTEE VOTING, WHICH
WAS NEW FOR A LOT OF VOTERS.
THE VAST MAJORITY SAID IT WAS AN
EASY PROCESS, HAPPY WITH THE
ELECTION, AND THOSE WHO VOTED IN
PERSON, MOST HAD SHORT WAITING
TIMES, THAT'S BEEN THE TRADITION
IN WISCONSIN, AND IT HELD IN
2020, AND SO I THINK THE BROAD
MESSAGE IS ONE OF GREAT SUCCESS
DESPITE ALL THE DIFFICULTIES AND
VERY HIGH LEVELS OF TURNOUT, THE
SHIFTS THAT HAD TO HAPPEN TO
MOVE POLLING PLACES FROM OLD
LOCATIONS TO NEW LOCATIONS,
VOTERS MOSTLY HAD GOOD
EXPERIENCES.
THERE WERE SOME POCKETS OF THE
POPULATION THAT CONTINUE TO HAVE
DIFFICULTY, AND MAYBE MORE
DIFFICULTY IN 2020 THAN IN OTHER
YEARS.
IN PARTICULAR, THREE JUMP OUT.
THOSE ARE YOUNG PEOPLE, PEOPLE
WITH DISABILITIES, AND NON-WHITE
MINORITY VOTERS.
ALL THREE OF THOSE GROUPS WERE
LIKELY IN THE SURVEY TO SAY THEY
HAD SOME DIFFICULTY WITH THE
ABSENTEE VOTING PROCESS, EITHER
GETTING A WITNESS SIGNATURE OR
GETTING THE BALLOT IN ON TIME OR
MAKING THE REQUEST.
THERE WAS SOME DIFFICULTY VOTING
IN PERSON.
THE WAIT TIMES TO VOTE WERE
LONGER FOR YOUNG PEOPLE, PEOPLE
WITH DISABILITIES, AND MINORITY
VOTERS.
THIS CONTINUED TO BE TROUBLE
SPOTS.
I THINK FOR DIFFERENT REASONS.
YOU KNOW, YOUNG VOTERS,
ESPECIALLY COLLEGE AGE STUDENTS,
WERE OFTEN RELOCATED OR
DISLOCATED DURING THE PANDEMIC,
MOVING MAYBE FROM CAMPUS BACK TO
THEIR PARENTS' HOME OR SOMETHING
ELSE AND FIGURING OUT THE
ABSENTEE VOTING PROCESS OR
SOMETHING LIKE THAT, AND THAT
CREATED MANY PROBLEMS AND MANY
OF THEM VOTED IN PERSON,
PROBABLY, AS A SIDE EFFECT OF
ALL OF THAT.
>> AND SHIFTING OVER TO CLERKS.
WHY WAS IT DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO
SUMMARIZE ALL OF THE EXPERIENCES
OF MUNICIPAL CLERKS, AND WHAT
DID THEY REPORT AS DIFFICULTY
ADMINISTERING THE ELECTION?
>> WELL, WISCONSIN HAS A
SOMEWHAT UNUSUAL SYSTEM OF
ELECTION ADMINISTRATION.
IT IS BASED AT THE MUNICIPAL
LEVEL SO EVERY CITY, VILLAGE,
AND TOWN HAS ITS OWN ELECTION
CLERK, WHETHER IT IS THE CITY OF
MILWAUKEE WITH OVER 400,000
PEOPLE OR THE SMALL TOWN THAT
MIGHT HAVE A FEW HUNDRED PEOPLE.
IN FACT, THE TYPICAL CLERK
SERVES LESS THAN 1,000 VOTERS.
IT IS VERY DECENTRALIZED.
THERE IS A HUGE RANGE IN THE
KIND OF PROFESSIONALISM AND
CAPACITY OF THE OFFICES AND
NUMBER OF VOTERS SERVED.
MOST CLERKS WORK PART-TIME ON AN
HOURLY BASIS, AND MOST OF THEM
HAVE OTHER JOBS ON THE SIDE, AND
SO IT IS A PART-TIME GIG OPPOSED
TO CLERKS IN, SAY, GREEN BAY OR
MADISON WITH STAFF WHO WORK YEAR
ROUND AND REALLY FOCUS ON
ELECTIONS.
SO YOU GET A WIDE VARIETY OF
OPINIONS OF WHAT ELECTION
PROCESSES OUGHT TO BE ADOPTED
DEPENDING ON THE SIZE OF THE
COMMUNITY AND WHAT THE
EXPERIENCE WAS.
MOST CLERKS HAD SUCCESSFUL
ELECTION AND HAPPY WITH HOW
THINGS CAME OFF, AND INNOVATED
IN REALLY INTERESTING WAYS TO
MAKE THINGS WORK WHEN THERE WAS
DIFFICULTY FINDING POLL WORKERS
OR SHIFTING TO NEW LOCATIONS,
AND ESPECIALLY IN BIGGER CITIES.
THERE WAS INNOVATIONS LIKE THE
USE OF DROP BOXES TO COLLECT
BALLOTS.
IN SOME PLACES USING OLD STORE
FRONTS FROM CLOSED BUSINESSES AS
POLLING LOCATIONS BECAUSE THEY
ALLOWED FOR SOCIAL DISTANCING,
BUT YOU SEE IN THE SURVEY THAT,
YOU KNOW, THE GENERAL ATTITUDE
TOWARDS VOTING AND
ADMINISTRATION OF ELECTIONS IS
PRETTY DIFFERENT IN SMALL TOWNS
AND VILLAGES COMPARED TO BIGGER
CITIES.
FOR EXAMPLE, WHETHER WE OUGHT TO
ALLOW SOMETHING LIKE DROP BOXES
OR MANDATE MUNICIPALITIES USE
DROP BOXES.
BIGGER CITIES WERE ENTHUSIASTIC
ABOUT THAT AND WANT TO ALLOW THE
OPTION, IF NOT MANDATE THERE'S
SOME NUMBER OF DROP BOXES, BUT
IN THE SMALLEST COMMUNITIES, I
THINK THEY HAVE DIFFICULTY
IMAGINING SERVING DROP BOXES
WHILE DOING THE OTHER THINGS
THEY DO ELECTION-WISE BEFORE
ELECTION DAY, AND SO THEY REALLY
RESIST THE IDEA OF A MANDATE.
EVEN KIND OF THE ROUTINE ASPECTS
OF RUNNING ELECTIONS LIKE
RECRUITING POLL WORKERS WAS
EQUALLY DIFFICULT IN BIG CITIES
AND SMALL TOWNS, BUT IN BIGGER
COMMUNITIES MORE OF THOSE POLL
WORKERS WERE NEW.
IN LARGEST CITIES, ABOUT HALF OF
THE POLL WORKERS WERE BRAND NEW,
NEVER SERVED BEFORE, AND SO THEY
NEEDED TO BE TRAINED.
THEY NEEDED TO BE FOUND AND
TRAINED AND RECRUITED AND
MONITORED IN A WAY THAT ONGOING
POLL WORKERS WOULDN'T BE, AND
YET CLERKS SAID THE NEW POLL
WORKERS DID JUST AS WELL, IF NOT
BETTER, THAN THEIR VETERAN POLL
WORKERS WHO RETURNED.
THERE'S A SILVER LINING TO THAT,
BUT IT PRESENTS SPECIAL
CHALLENGES, I THINK, IN LARGER
CITIES THAN IN SMALLER
COMMUNITIES.
>> AND SOME CLERKS REPORTED HIGH
LEVELS OF BURNOUT WITH THE
PANDEMIC AND THE POLITICAL
ENVIRONMENT, AND IN SOME CASES,
EXPERIENCING THREATS.
BECAUSE OF THOSE EXPERIENCES,
ARE WE GOING TO SEE ANY SORT OF
MASS EXODUS OF MUNICIPAL CLERKS,
ESPECIALLY WITH THAT GOOD
EXPERIENCE OF KNOWING HOW TO
ADMINISTER ELECTIONS, AND WHAT
WOULD BE THE CONSEQUENCES OF
THAT IF WE LOST THAT
INSTITUTIONAL KNOWLEDGE?
>> YEAH.
THERE HAVE BEEN NEWS STORIES
FROM OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY
ABOUT ELECTION OFFICIALS GETTING
OUT OF THE JOB, THAT 2020 WAS
JUST SO DIFFICULT AND
UNPLEASANTLY DECIDED TO HANG IT
UP AND RETIRE.
I WAS CONCERNED THAT WOULD
HAPPEN IN WISCONSIN AS WELL.
THE SURVEY DID ASK ABOUT SOME OF
THE SPECIFIC EXPERIENCES THAT
CLERKS HAD WITH HOSTILE OR
THREATENING MESSAGES, AND ABOUT
20% OF CLERKS TOLD US THAT THOSE
WERE MORE COMMON EXPERIENCES IN
2020 THAN BEFORE, AND THAT'S
OBVIOUSLY A STRESS ON THE JOB.
THE SURVEY ASKED SPECIFICALLY
ABOUT BURNOUT, AND ABOUT WHETHER
THEY FEEL USED UP IN THE END OF
THE WORKDAY, AND THE VAST
MAJORITY OF CLERKS SAID
"ABSOLUTELY" AS IT IS A VERY
DIFFICULT JOB, ESPECIALLY IN THE
PANDEMIC.
WE ALSO ASKED ABOUT OTHER
STRESSES, MISINFORMATION, HAVING
TO COMBAT INTENTIONAL OR
UNINTENTIONAL MISUNDERSTANDINGS
HOW THE ELECTION OPERATES,
PUTTING NEW PRESSURE ON THEM TO
KEEP THE FACTS IN FRONT OF
VOTERS AND RUN A PROPER
ELECTION, AND THEN, OF COURSE,
THE GLUT OF ABSENTEE BALLOTS.
BALLOTS ARRIVING BY THE MAIL
THEY REALLY DIDN'T HAVE TO
PROCESS IN THE PAST AND DON'T
HAVE THE ABILITY TO PROCESS
BEFORE ELECTION DAY UNDER
WISCONSIN LAW, AND THAT WAS A
REAL TROUBLE, I THINK, FOR A LOT
OF CLERKS AS THOSE BALLOTS PILED
UP BEFORE THE ELECTION, AND THEN
HAVE TO PROCESS THEM ALL ON
ELECTION DAY.
THE SURVEY ASKED SPECIFICALLY
WHETHER ALL EXPERIENCES TOGETHER
MADE THE CLERK MORE LIKELY TO
WANT TO END THEIR CAREER IN THAT
POSITION OR IT DIDN'T MAKE A
DIFFERENCE OR MAKE THEM LIKELY
TO STAY, AND I WAS SURPRISED TO
SEE THERE WAS A SORT OF EQUAL
BALANCE.
ABOUT 20% OF CLERKS SAID THE
EXPERIENCE MADE THEM MORE LIKELY
TO WANT TO LEAVE, AND SOME SAID
THEY WOULD RETIRE EARLY AS A
RESULT, BUT THERE WAS ANOTHER
20% THAT INDICATED THE
EXPERIENCE MADE THEM REDEDICATE
THEMSELVES TO THEIR POSITIONS,
AND THEY REALLY WANTED TO STAY
ON AND MORE LIKELY TO SERVE FOR
ADDITIONAL ELECTIONS THAN THEY
WOULD HAVE BEEN.
THAT'S A WONDERFUL BRIGHT SIDE,
I THINK, AGAIN, THE SILVER
LINING TO ALL OF THIS THAT
DOESN'T GET EMPHASIZED AS MUCH.
LOOKING AT THE ACTUAL ROSTERS OF
CLERKS FROM BEFORE THE ELECTION
AND AFTER, THE TURNOVER DOES NOT
SEEM TO BE EXCEPTIONAL AT THIS
POINT.
THERE'S ALWAYS A CHURN IN THESE
POSITIONS, AS I SAID, THEY ARE
PART-TIME, THEY ARE NOT CAREERS
FOR MANY OF THESE PEOPLE, AND SO
THEY DO SORT OF CYCLE IN AND
CYCLE OUT, BUT IT LOOKS LIKE THE
PATTERN IS REALLY NOT MUCH
HIGHER IN TERMS OF THE TURNOVER
THIS TIME AROUND THAN IT WOULD
HAVE BEEN AFTER THE 2016
ELECTION.
>> AND YOU MENTIONED ABSENTEE
BALLOTS.
HOW MUCH DID THAT PLAY A ROLE IN
THE 2020 ELECTION OVERALL WITH
UNPRECEDENTED NUMBERS OF VOTING
BY MAIL.
DID THIS IMPACT VOTERS?
DID THIS IMPACT CLERKS?
YOU MENTIONED HOW DIFFERENT
MUNICIPALITIES, DIFFERENT
COUNTIES, CITIES, VILLAGES,
VASTLY DIFFERENT SIZES DEALING
WITH VASTLY DIFFERENT LEVELS OF
POPULATION, DID THAT HAVE
VARYING IMPACTS ON HOW ABSENTEE
BALLOTS WERE PROCESSED AND
EVENTUALLY COUNTED?
>> IT DID.
IT WAS PROBABLY THE FIRST
ELECTION IN WISCONSIN HISTORY
WHERE THE MAJORITY OF VOTES WERE
CAST OUTSIDE OF ELECTION DAY.
THE NORMAL PATTERN IN WISCONSIN,
THE SYSTEM, IS REALLY SET UP TO
SERVE VOTERS ON ELECTION DAY
WITH A SMALL NUMBER OF VOTERS
EXPECTED TO CAST BALLOTS BY MAIL
OR MAYBE IN PERSON EARLY, WHICH
WE CALL EARLY VOTING, BUT IT IS
REALLY A FORM OF ABSENTEE VOTING
IN WISCONSIN, BUT 2020 TURNED
THAT ON ITS HEAD, AND IT WAS
ONLY A MINORITY OF VOTERS WHO
CAST VOTES IN PERSON SO I THINK
ONE THING IT'S DONE IS SET UP
FUTURE ELECTIONS IN WISCONSIN TO
ALWAYS HAVE THESE THREE PIECES
SIMULTANEOUSLY, VOTING IN PERSON
ON ELECTION DAY, WHICH WE ALL
RECOGNIZE AS TRADITIONAL WAY OF
VOTING, VOTING BY MAIL, WHERE A
VOTER REQUESTS BALLOT AND SENDS
IN THROUGH THE POSTAL SERVICE,
AND THEN THIS THIRD FORM, WHICH
IS ABSENTEE VOTING IN PERSON OF
SOME KIND BEFORE ELECTION DAY
WHERE CLERKS REALLY DID A LOT OF
INNOVATING.
I MENTIONED THE USE OF DROP
BOXES BEFORE.
THOSE GOT ROLLED OUT IN LOTS OF
COMMUNITIES, BUT ESPECIALLY IN
BIGGER COMMUNITIES AND HEAVILY
USED BY VOTERS.
I THINK MANY VOTERS VIEWED THE
DROP BOXES AS MORE SECURE THAN
THE MAIL.
THERE WAS CONCERNS ABOUT WHETHER
THE POSTAL SERVICE WOULD
IMMEDIATE DELIVERY STANDARDS IN
2020, AND PEOPLE WERE WORRIED
ABOUT THAT BALLOT GETTING BACK
ON TIME, AND SO I THINK THERE
WAS A KIND OF SECURITY IN USING
THE DROP BOX FOR A LOT OF
VOTERS, AND SO THAT WAS A
MASSIVE INNOVATION, BUT THERE
WAS OTHERS, CITIES LIKE MADISON
USED DROP SLOTS AT LIBRARIES
THAT WOULD NORMALLY BE USED FOR
RETURNING BOOKS AS A WAY TO
COLLECT BALLOTS.
THERE WAS BALLOT COLLECTION
ACTIVITIES IN PARKS AND OTHER
PLACES WHERE ELECTION WORKERS
WENT OUT TO RECEIVE BALLOTS,
AGAIN, TAKING THE POSTAL SERVICE
OUT OF THE FINAL STEP OF GETTING
BALLOT BACK TO THE ELECTION
OFFICE.
I THINK IT WAS A SENSE OF
SECURITY FOR A LOT OF VOTERS.
IT REALLY PUT PRESSURE ON
ELECTION OFFICIALS AS I WAS
SAYING TO SEE THOSE BALLOTS
PILING UP BEFORE ELECTION DAY,
THEY NEEDED TO BE STORED
SOMEWHERE, THAT IS SECURE, AND
THEN ALLOCATED TO THE RIGHT
POLLING PLACE ON ELECTION DAY
WHERE THEY ARE OPENED AND
INSPECTED AND TABULATED, AND SO
THAT WAS ADDITIONAL WORK FOR
POLL WORKERS ON ELECTION DAY TO
DO AN EXCESSIVE AMOUNT OF
ABSENTEE BALLOT FABULOUS
ALONGSIDE IN-PERSON VOTING.
THERE WAS ANOTHER INNOVATION
UNDERWAY BEFORE 2020 IN MOSTLY
LARGER COMMUNITIES, AND THAT IS
COUNTING ABSENTEE BALLOTS IN A
CENTRAL LOCATION RATHER THAN AT
THE POLLING PLACE.
CITIES LIKE BROOKFIELD AND
MILWAUKEE AND GREEN BAY HAD
ALREADY BEEN DOING THIS AS JUST
AN EFFICIENCY, HUGE NUMBER OF
BALLOTS NEED TO BE PROCESSED,
AND TAKE THEM TO THE ONE PLACE,
HIGH SPEED SCANNER TO RUN THE
BALLOTS.
MORE COMMUNITIES WERE INTERESTED
IN DOING THAT IN 2020 AND IN THE
SURVEY SAYING THEY ARE THINKING
SERIOUSLY ABOUT DOING THIS IN
UPCOMING ELECTIONS.
I THINK WE'LL GO FROM, YOU KNOW,
A COUPLE DOZEN WHO HAD BEEN
DOING IT BEFORE THE ELECTION TO
PROBABLY MANY DOZENS, ESPECIALLY
LARGER COMMUNITIES IN FUTURE
ELECTIONS.
>> AND NOW THAT EVERYTHING IS
MORE VIRTUAL, SOME OF US
REMEMBER SEEING VIDEO OF THESE
MASSIVE ROOMS IN MILWAUKEE, FOR
EXAMPLE, OF PEOPLE COUNTING
BALLOTS, VERY, VERY INTERESTING
TIME, AND SO SWITCHING GEARS A
LITTLE BIT.
NO VOTER FRAUD HAS BEEN FOUND,
AND WE ARE STILL TALKING ABOUT
THE 2020 ELECTION IN SEPTEMBER,
LATE SEPTEMBER OF 2021, AND
THERE ARE SEVERAL ONGOING
INVESTIGATIONS IN OUR STATE
ALONE, ASSEMBLY SPEAKER ROBIN
BOSS SAYS HE WANTS TO SHOW THE
PUBLIC THEY CAN TRUST HOW
ELECTIONS ARE RUN IN WISCONSIN.
ARE THESE INVESTIGATIONS ERODING
OR GAINING PUBLIC TRUST?
>> WELL, THAT'S A REALLY GOOD
QUESTION, AND I'M GOING TO
ANSWER IT IN A MOMENT.
LET ME JUST SAY THE MESSAGE FROM
MY SURVEY OF CLERKS AND VOTERS,
THE TWO MAJOR STAKEHOLDERS IN
THE ELECTION, WAS THAT IT WAS
HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL, VERY
CONFIDENT IN WHAT HAPPENED, HAD
A GOOD EXPERIENCE, DESPITE ALL
THE DIFFICULTIES, DESPITE THE
PUBLIC HEALTH CONCERNS,
FINANCIAL CONCERNS,
MISINFORMATION, THE CHANGE IN
THE WAY PEOPLE VOTED, THEY
PULLED IT OFF.
WE HAVE TO KEEP GOING BACK TO
THAT THEME BECAUSE IT IS THE
DOMINANT EXPERIENCE OF BOTH THE
ELECTION OFFICIALS AND THE
VOTERS.
REALLY, NOWHERE IN MY SURVEYS
DID I HEAR FROM CLERKS THEY
THOUGHT THERE WAS SUBSTANTIAL
FRAUD HAPPENING OR THEY THOUGHT
THE LAWS WERE NOT BEING
IMPLEMENTED PROPERLY.
THERE WERE OPPORTUNITIES IN THE
SURVEY FOR THEM TO SAY WHATEVER
THEY WANTED, IN ADDITION TO THE
CLOSED ENDED QUESTIONS I ASKED,
THERE WAS A LOT OF OPPORTUNITIES
FOR OPEN ENDED VERBATIM
COMMENTS, AND IT WAS RARE FOR A
CLERK TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE
SECURITY OF THE ELECTION OR THE
INTEGRITY OF THE ELECTION THAT
BOTHERED THEM.
NOW, IN TERMS OF WHETHER THESE
INVESTIGATIONS AND AUDITS AND
OTHER THINGS UNDERWAY BOOST
CONFIDENCE, I THINK IT IS
UNLIKELY.
WE KNOW FROM SURVEYS OF VOTERS
AROUND THE COUNTRY THAT MAJOR
PREDICTER OF WHETHER THEY ARE
CONFIDENT ABOUT AN ELECTION IS
IF THEY HEAR FROM PEOPLE IN
THEIR PARTY, IN PARTICULAR,
PUBLIC OFFICIALS, CANDIDATES,
OTHER LEADERS, THAT TELLING THEM
THEY SHOULD HAVE CONFIDENCE IN
THE ELECTION.
YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE KIND OF
CREDIBLE SOURCE THEY'D HEAR FROM
IN POLITICS THAT'S MEANINGFUL TO
THEM, AND MOST IN THE SURVEY HAD
A GREAT EXPERIENCE WITH NO
QUALMS ABOUT HOW THE ELECTION
WAS CONDUCTED.
IF YOU ARE HEARING FROM SOMEONE
IN PUBLIC LIFE TELLING YOU THAT,
EVEN THOUGH YOUR EXPERIENCE WAS
FINE, ELSEWHERE, WE HAVE
SUSPICIONS OR IRREGULARITIES.
AS A VOTER, YOU DON'T HAVE A LOT
OF AMMUNITION TO COMBAT THOSE
KINDS OF CONCERNS.
SO I THINK ONE OF THE BEST
THINGS WE CAN DO IS SIMPLY
REMIND VOTERS THAT THE ELECTION
HAD BOTH THE NORMAL TESTING OF
EQUIPMENT THAT HAPPENS BEFORE
THE ELECTION AND AFTER WHERE IT
IS PUBLICLY RUN AND EVERYONE CAN
SEE THAT THE MACHINES ARE
WORKING PROPERLY.
THERE'S A SPOT AUDIT OF THE
STATE THAT HAPPENS AFTER EVERY
ELECTION WHERE RANDOM WARDS
AROUND THE STATE ARE SELECTED
AND BALLOTS REVIEWED, AND THERE
WAS A FULL RECOUNT OF ALL
BALLOTS IN TWO BIGGEST COUNTIES
IN WISCONSIN, AND THEY VERIFIED
THE RESULTS, BUT, REALLY, THE
BASIC OUTCOME UNCHANGED AS A
RESULT OF THE REVIEWS.
I THINK BY CONTINUING TO RAISE
QUESTIONS AND DEMAND
INVESTIGATIONS AND OTHER KINDS
OF THINGS HAPPENING NINE MONTHS,
TEN MONTHS AFTER THE ELECTION,
THAT'S LIKELY TO LOWER
CONFIDENCE OR CERTAINLY NOT TO
BOOST IT.
IT MAY HAVE SOME VALUE, BUT I
THINK THE TIMING, THE KIND OF
PARTISANSHIP THAT'S EMBEDDED IN
IT ARE REALLY NOT HELPFUL FOR
REMINDING VOTERS ABOUT THE GOOD
THINGS THAT HAPPENED IN THE
ELECTION.
>> AND JUST DRILLING DOWN A
LITTLE BIT FURTHER, THE
INVESTIGATION IS LED BY
WISCONSIN FORMER WISCONSIN
SUPREME COURT JUSTICE, MIKE
GABLEMAN, AND THIS WEEK HE
RELEASED A SIX-MINUTE LONG VIDEO
AND TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THEY
ARE NOT CHALLENGING THE RESULTS,
BUT, QUOTE, SOME ELECTION
OFFICIALS ACTED UNILATERALLY IN
DECIDING NOT TO FOLLOW
ESTABLISHED STATE LAW.
WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THAT?
THIS IS AN INVESTIGATION THAT
SEEMS TO BE DIFFERENT THAN
LOOKING FOR FRAUD.
IS THIS JUST CREATING MORE
CONFUSION?
CERTAINLY, WE HAVE NOT SEEN
SOMETHING LIKE THIS BEFORE.
>> WELL, I HAVE A COUPFUL
WORR -- COUPLE WORRIES ABOUT
THAT.
ONE, THE INVESTIGATION SEEMS TO
HAVE A MOVING TARGET IN MIND.
THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT HIS
TEAM IS INTERESTED IN HAVE
SHIFTED OVER TIME.
HE'S TRAVELED TO ARIZONA TO SEE
THE RECOUNT AUDIT BUSINESS THAT
WAS HAPPENING THERE IN MARICOPA
COUNTY.
HE'S TRAVELED TO A SEMINAR THAT
MIKE LINDELL, THE MY PILLOW CEO,
PUT ON IN SOUTH DAKOTA AND
CONDUCTED WITH OTHER FOLKS WHO
ARE IN THAT INDUSTRY OF RAISING
QUESTIONS ABOUT THE ELECTION.
HIS MOST RECENT VIDEO, AS YOU
MENTIONED, IS TALKING ABOUT
CLERKS NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW,
AND, TO ME, THAT SEEMS LIKE A
DIFFERENT SET OF CONCERNS, AND
IF THAT WERE HAPPENING, I THINK
THE LEGISLATURE HAS THE RIGHT TO
HOLD HEARINGS TO LOOK INTO THAT,
AND THEY HAVE ALREADY DONE SOME
OF THAT, AND THERE COULD BE
COURT CASES FILED.
SOMEONE COULD FILE SUIT CLAIMING
CLERKS OR ELECTION OFFICIALS
WERE NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW.
THERE WAS SEVEN OR EIGHT SUITS
FILED RIGHT AFTER THE
PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IN
WISCONSIN IN STATE COURT AND
FEDERAL COURT CLAIMING THAT LAWS
WERE NOT BEING FOLLOWED, THAT
THE COLLECTION OF BALLOTS IN
CITY PARKS WAS NOT ALLOWED UNDER
THE LAW, MAYBE DROP BOXES
SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN PERCENTED,
CLERKS ASSISTING WHEN THEY
SHOULDN'T HAVE.
ALL THE SUITS WERE TOSSED OUT
NOT SEEN AS HAVING MERIT OR NOT
AFFECTING THE ELECTION AS A
RESULT.
THAT'S NOT TO SAY WE DON'T NEED
IMPROVEMENT.
IT IS AN IMPERFECT, HUMAN
PROCESS, IT WAS A DIFFERENT
ELECTION THAN EVER BEFORE, AND I
THINK THE SYSTEM ADAPTED, BUT IT
WAS NOT DESIGNED TO DEAL WITH
THE CHALLENGES WE FACED IN 2020,
AND SO SOME CHANGES TO THE
ELECTION LAW ARE PROBABLY RIGHT,
BUT I DON'T THINK THAT DOING IT
THROUGH SOMEWHAT SECRETIVE
INVESTIGATION THAT'S NOT DONE IN
FULL PUBLIC VIEW AND WITH MOVING
TARGETS IS REALLY PROBLEMATIC.
>> DID CLERKS IN YOUR SURVEY
HAVE A CONSENSUS OR IDEA WHAT
CHANGES COULD BE PROPOSED IN
ORDER TO MAKE ELECTIONS RUN
BETTER OR WHAT THEY THINK WOULD
BE FAIRER?
>> YEAH.
SO THERE IS A TENDENCY AMONG
ELECTION OFFICIALS TO LIKE
THINGS THE WAY THEY ARE.
THIS IS CALLED A STATUS QUO
BIAS.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CAME OUT
AGAIN AND AGAIN IN THE SURVEY IS
CLERKS JUST WANTED THE RULES TO
BE FIXED.
THEY DON'T WANT CHANGES BEING
MADE, ESPECIALLY DURING THE
ELECTION SEASON.
THEY WERE REALLY FRUSTRATED IN
THE SPRING DURING THE
PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARY WHEN THE
LEGISLATURE OR THE GOVERNOR OR
THE COURTS WERE INTERVENING AND
CHANGING THE RULES ON THEM.
THIS FORCES THEM TO RE-EDUCATE
VOTERS, RETRAIN POLL WORKERS,
CHANGE THE FORMS AND
INFORMATIONAL MATERIALS THEY ARE
USING, AND CHANGE ALL THE
PROCESSES.
THEY WANT THOSE THINGS TO BE
LOCKED DOWN ONCE WE GET IN
ELECTION SEASON, WHICH IS
COMPLETELY UNDERSTANDABLE.
IT ALSO MEANS THEY MOSTLY LIKE
THE PROCEDURES IN PLACE.
SO, FOR EXAMPLE, ONE OF THE
QUESTIONS IN THE SURVEY ASKED
CLERKS WHETHER THEY THINK THE
DEADLINE FOR RETURNING ABSENTEE
BALLOTS SHOULD REMAIN ON
ELECTION DAY.
RIGHT NOW, ABSENTEE BALLOTS HAVE
TO BE BROUGHT BACK TO THE CLERK
ONE FORM OR ANOTHER IN MAIL OR
PERSON BY THE TIME POLLS CLOSE
AT 8:00 P.M. ON ELECTION DAY.
THAT PRACTICE WAS EXTENDED BY
THE COURT BACK IN THE APRIL
PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARIES SO
BALLOTS CAME IN FOR ANOTHER SIX
DAYS, AND FIVE YEARS AGO, THEY
ALLOWED BALLOTS TO TRICKLE IN
UNTIL FRIDAY AFTER ELECTION DAY
AS LONG AS THEY WERE POSTMARKED
BY ELECTION DAY.
TO MY SURPRISE, CLERKS WERE
NEARLY UNANIMOUS IN SAYING WE
ABSOLUTELY THINK THE ELECTION
DAY DEADLINE SHOULD HOLD.
WE DON'T WANT TO EXTEND IT.
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER THE
CLERK LEANS DEMOCRATIC OR
REPUBLICAN, BIG CITY, SMALL
TOWN, THAT WAS A PRETTY COMMON
VIEW, AND LET'S KEEP THINGS AS
THEY ARE, AND THAT WAS TRUE ALSO
WITH THE DEADLINE FOR REQUESTING
ABSENTEE BALLOTS AND VARIETY OF
LAWS.
CLERKS WOULD LIKE TO KEEP THOSE
THINGS AS THEY ARE.
WHERE YOU SEE DIFFERENCES AMONG
CLERKS ARE IN THE SORTS OF
THINGS THAT WOULD ALLOW OR
PREVENT INNOVATION.
ALLOW THEM TO DO THINGS AT THE
LOCAL LEVEL TO SERVE THEIR
VOTERS.
SO THE USE OF DROP BOXES, I
MENTIONED ALREADY, SOME CLERKS
RESIST THE IDEA, BUT OTHERS WANT
TO ALLOW IT OR MANDATE IT.
ONE OF THE OTHER QUESTIONS IN
THE SURVEY WAS ABOUT THE
PROCESSING OF ABSENTEE BALLOTS
BEFORE ELECTION DAY.
I MENTIONED ALREADY WISCONSIN'S
ONE OF THE A FEW STATES THAT
DOESN'T ALLOW CLERKS TO START TO
WORK THROUGH THE PAPERWORK IN
ADVANCE LEADING TO LATE NIGHTS
AND A LOT OF STRESS ON THE
ELECTION NIGHT.
THERE WERE A COUPLE PROPOSALS
OFFERED IN THE SURVEY, ONE BEING
SHOULD ELECTION WORKERS BE
ALLOWED TO AT LEAST OPEN THE
ABSENTEE BALLOTS BEFORE ELECTION
DAY, INSPECT THEM, MAKE SURE
EVERYTHING IS OKAY, THEY ARE NOT
DAMAGED, FLATTEN THEM SO THEY
CAN BE FED INTO THE TAB PEW
LATERS ON ELECTION DAY, AND SOME
CLERKS WERE OKAY WITH THE IDEA,
AND THERE WAS ANOTHER PROPOSAL
WHICH WOULD HAVE ALLOWED,
ACTUALLY, THE BALLOTS TO BE
INSERTED INTO THE FABULOUS
MACHININGS BEFORE ELECTION DAY,
OR EVEN IN PERSON TO PUT IT IN
THE MACHINE, AND SEVERAL CLERKS
SAID THEY THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE
A REWARDING EXPERIENCE FOR THE
VOTERS TO SEE IS GOING IN THE
MACHINE AND GIVE THEM A SENSE OF
CONFIDENCE THAT IT HAD BEEN
RECEIVED PROPERLY.
BOTH OF THOSE THINGS WERE
SUPPORTED BY CLERKS FROM BIG
CITIES, LARGER COMMUNITIES,
LARGER VILLAGES, BUT ELSEWHERE,
CLERKS WERE RESISTANT BECAUSE I
THINK IT IS DIFFICULT TO IMAGINE
HAVING CAPACITY TO ALLOW THOSE
THINGS WITH SUCH LIMITED STAFFS,
BECAUSE THEY WORK PART-TIME, AND
SOME DON'T HAVE OFFICES OR
OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT PHONES TO
USE TO DO BUSINESS.
THEY WORK, YOU KNOW, OUTS OF
THEIR KITCHEN OR LIVING ROOM
COFFEE TABLES OR SOMETHING ELSE,
ALLOWING MULTIPLE DAYS OF EARLY
VOTING OR DROP BOXES AND OTHER
THINGS SEEMED SOMEWHAT
UNIMAGINABLE.
ONE CONCLUSION IN THE REPORT IS
THAT STATE POLICYMAKERS NEED TO
THINK ABOUT SIMULTANEOUSLY, ON
THE ONE HAND, HAVING A UNIFORM
SET OF LAWS FOR THE STATE.
WE CERTAINLY NEED TO HAVE A
COMMON DEADLINE FOR ALL ABSENTEE
BALLOTS.
THAT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE, BUT
ALSO GIVING ROOM FOR CLERKS WHO
HAVE THE RESOURCES OR INTEREST
OR THE NEED OR THE DEMAND FROM
THEIR VOTERS TO SERVE THEM IN
DIFFERENT WAYS BY ALLOWING EARLY
COUNT OF VOTES, ALLOWING DROP
BOXES, OR OTHER KINDS OF THINGS,
AND RIGHT NOW, I THINK
POLICYMAKERS ARE NOT IN THAT
MIND SET YET OF HOW TO BALANCE
UNIFORMITY ON THINGS WE NEED
WHILE ALLOWING INNOVATION FOR
CLERKS WHO ARE INTERESTED AND
ABLE TO DO IT.
>> AND AS YOU MENTIONED, 1800
MUNICIPALITIES AND RUNNING
THINGS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENTLY,
THAT DECENTRALIZATION, THE
WISCONSIN ELECTIONS COMMISSION
REPEATEDLY SAID THAT ALSO HELPS
WISCONSIN'S ELECTION INTEGRITY.
WHEN IT COMES TO EDUCATION, I
THINK A LOT OF US LEARNED ABOUT
THE ELECTION PROCESS LAST YEAR
MORE THAN EVER BEFORE.
IT CAN SOMETIMES BE SEEN AS A
VERY DRY PROCESS, BUT NOW THAT
THERE IS SUCH A LASER FOCUS ON
TRUST, IS MORE EDUCATION AROUND
HOW THIS PROCESS ACTUALLY WORKS
NEEDED IN ORDER TO ENSURE
GREATER CONFIDENCE IN THE
SYSTEM?
>> YES, I THINK SO.
AND THAT'S A REAL LESSON THAT
ELECTION OFFICIALS AROUND THE
COUNTRY HAVE LEARNED DURING THE
2020 CYCLE THAT TRYING TO GETS
IN FRONT OF MISINFORMATION OR
DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGNS IS
REALLY ESSENTIAL.
NOT JUST GIVING THAT INFORMATION
TO REPORTERS WHO THEN SHARE IT
WITH THE PUBLIC, BUT TO
COMMUNICATE WITH THE PUBLIC
DIRECTLY IN WAYS THEY HAVE NOT
IN THE PAST, WHETHER STREAMING
LIVE ON FACEBOOK, GIVING TOURS
OF ELECTION FACILITIES, SHOWING
THE COUNTING OF BALLOTS,
ISSUING, YOU KNOW, INFORMATIONAL
GUIDANCE BEFORE THE ELECTION.
NOW, WISCONSIN CLERKS DID A LOT
OF THAT, AND SO DID THE
ELECTIONS COMMISSION BEFORE THE
ELECTION.
FOR EXAMPLE, ONE OF THE BITS OF
MISINFORMATION THAT PEOPLE WERE
CONCERNED ABOUT WAS THE LATE
COUNTING OF BALLOTS IN
MILWAUKEE.
MILWAUKEE IS THE BIGGEST CITY IN
THE STATE THAT RECEIVES A LOT OF
ABSENTEE BALLOTS.
THEY ARE NOT PERMITTED TO DO
ANYTHING WITH THE BALLOTS BEFORE
ELECTION DAY SO THE COUNTING
BEGINS ON ELECTION MORNING
ALONGSIDE THE OTHER BALLOTS.
MILWAUKEE HAS A HISTORY OF NOT
FINISHING UNTIL LATE AT NIGHT.
THAT WAS TRUE IN 2018, THE
GOVERNOR'S RACE, BALLOTS COMING
IN AROUND MIDNIGHT.
WE KNEW THAT WAS THE CASE IN
2020, PROBABLY LATER AT NIGHT.
THERE WAS AN ADVISORY PUT OUT BY
THE COMMISSION IN ADVANCE TO BE
PREPARED THAT BALLOTS COME IN AS
A BATCH IN MILWAUKEE.
IT MIGHT BE A SIX FIGURE NUMBER,
A LOT OF BALLOTS, AND NOTHING
SUSPICIOUS ABOUT IT, BUT IT IS
JUST WHEN THE CITY FINISHES THE
CENTRAL COUNT OF THE ABSENTEE
BALLOTS.
DESPITE THE WARNINGS AND
EXPERIENCE OF THE STATE ACTUALLY
SEEING THAT HAPPEN IN PRIOR
ELECTIONS, A SURPRISING NUMBER
OF RESPONDENTS IN THE SURVEY
SAID THEY THOUGHT THERE WAS
SOMETHING SUSPICIOUS ABOUT THAT.
THAT'S, I THINK, A SIGN PUBLIC
EDUCATION IS NOT FULLY WORKING.
I DID ASK CLERKS IN THE SURVEY
WHETHER THEY WERE INTERESTED IN
DOING MORE PUBLIC EDUCATION AND
PUT MORE STAFF, RESOURCES, AND
TIME INTO DOING IT.
I WAS SURPRISED MANY CLERKS SAID
"NO," BUT CONTENT WITH THE
AMOUNT OF PUBLIC EDUCATION NAY
WERE DOING.
SOME WERE INTERESTED IN DOING
LESS, IN FACT, AND THAT, TOO,
VARIED BY THE SIZE OF THE
COMMUNITY IN BIGGER CITIES,
CLERKS WANTED TO DO MORE PUBLIC
EDUCATION, WISH THEY HAD MORE
TIME AND MONEY TO GET OUT THERE
AND EDUCATE VOTERS.
I THINK SOME OF THAT IS THE
NECESSITY IN BIGGER COMMUNITIES.
THE POPULATION SIMPLY CHURNS
MORE.
THERE'S MORE NEW INCOMING
PEOPLE, PEOPLE MOVING IN AND
OUT, YOUNG PEOPLE COMING OF AGE
WHO ARE VOTING FOR THE FIRST
TIME SO GREATER NEED IN THOSE
PLACES TO ORIENT VOTERS, EDUCATE
THEM, HOW TO REGISTER, HERE'S
THE BALLOT, HERE'S THE IDs
NEEDED TO VOTE, BUT IN SMALLER
COMMUNITIES WHERE THE POPULATION
IS MUCH MORE STABLE, I THINK
THERE'S JUST LESS INTEREST IN
DOING THAT.
AGAIN, I THINK IT IS VIEWED AS
SOMETHING AS OF A MANDATE THEY
JUST DON'T HAVE THE CAPACITY TO
MANAGE.
>> ARE YOU, IN YOUR SENSE, IN
YOUR EXPERTISE, CONCERNED AT ALL
ABOUT EITHER THE POLICIES,
PRACTICES, OR PROCESS OF
ELECTIONS IN WISCONSIN BECOMING
MORE AND MORE PARTISAN?
>> I AM.
I THINK IT IS SOMETHING THAT
PEOPLE WHO WATCH ELECTIONS
CLOSELY OR ARE IN THE FIELD ARE
SEEING HAPPENING ALL OVER THE
COUNTRY.
THIS IS, YOU KNOW, THERE'S SORT
OF A GOOD SIDE AND BAD SIDE TO
ALL OF THIS.
OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS, SINCE
THE MELTDOWN THAT HAPPENED IN
FLORIDA BACK IN 2000, ELECTIONS
HAVE BECOME MUCH BETTER.
WE HAVE BETTER VOTING MACHINES.
WE HAVE MORE SECURITY SYSTEMS.
WE HAVE BETTER WAYS FOR VOTERS
TO TRACK BALLOTS.
THERE'S MORE VOTER INFORMATION.
THERE'S MORE UNIFORMITY WITH HOW
VOTERS ARE TREATED FROM ONE
PLACE TO ANOTHER.
IT'S BEEN IMPROVEMENT IN
STANDARDIZATION, SECURITY, AND
OTHER ELEMENTS OF THE VOTING
SYSTEM, BUT AT THE SAME TIME,
THERE'S ALSO BEEN THIS
HEIGHTENED PARTISANSHIP ABOUT,
REALLY, EVERY ASPECT OF
ELECTIONS.
IT USED TO BE AMERICANS WERE
DIVIDED ABOUT THINGS LIKE MAYBE
REDISTRICTING OR CAMPAIGN
FINANCE OR OTHER ASPECTS OF
ELECTIONS, BUT NOW IT IS THE
SMALL STUFF.
IT IS ABOUT SIGNATURES ON
ABSENTEE BALLOTS OR DEADLINES
FOR REQUESTS OR WHAT KINDS OF ID
QUALIFY TO VOTE WHEN A PERSON
THINKS THEY ARE CONFINED AS A
RESULT OF THE PANDEMIC.
THESE ARE THE MINUTIA THEY
NORMALLY WOULD HAVED WORRIED
ABOUT AND TINKERED WITH, BUT
THEY ARE HOT BUTTON ISSUES
MAKING IT DIFFICULT FOR
POLICYMAKERS TO DELIBERATE ON
THE ISSUES AND STUDY THEM IN A
CAREFUL AND FRANK WAY WHEN THEY
KNOW THERE'S MEMBERS OF THE
PARTY, THE BASES OF BOTH
PARTIES, WATCHING CLOSELY AND
PUTTING PRESSURE ON THEM AND
ALSO PARTY LEADERS, LIKE DONALD
TRUMP OUT OF OFFICE, BUT STILL
WATCHING WHAT'S HAPPENING IN
WISCONSIN AND WOULD LIKE
POLICYMAKERS IN HIS PARTY TO DO
THINGS HE THINKS ARE THE RIGHT
APPROACH.
I THINK THE HEIGHTENED
PARTISANSHIP MAKES IT HARD FOR
PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE COMMUNITY,
REAL STAKEHOLDERS, TO DO THE
BORING, BUT SERIOUS WORK THAT
MAKES ELECTIONS BETTER FROM ONE
CYCLE TO THE NEXT.
>> ALL RIGHT.
BARRY BURDEN, UW-MADISON
POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR AND
DIRECTOR OF ELECTIONS RESEARCH
CENTER, THANK YOU, AS ALWAYS, SO
MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> IT WAS GREAT BEING HERE.
THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>> FOR MORE FROM "HERE & NOW"
AND PBS WISCONSIN, YOU CAN VISIT
PBSWISCONSIN.ORG, AND THANK YOU
SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON "NOON
WEDNESDAY."