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PBS Wisconsin Original
production.

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>> Madison officials
cleared the memorial site,

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where a police officer shot
and killed a man in.

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Candidates competing in the
primary for governor make

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their final bids to land on
the November ballot.

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[MUSIC]
Good evening. I'm Zac

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Schultz, filling in for
Frederica Freyberg tonight

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on here. And now, a final
look at the candidates

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running for governor ahead
of Tuesday's partisan

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primary election. And we'll
examine the limits of First

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Amendment rights as Madison
police shut down the

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protest encampment and the
Lac du Flambeau band

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asserting sovereignty
around their reservation

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leads to federal lawsuits.
It's "Here& Now" for August

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7th.
>> Funding for Here and Now

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is provided by the Focus
Fund for Journalism and

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Friends of PBS Wisconsin.
>> It was just over a year

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ago that Governor Tony
Evers announced he would

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not seek a third term in
office. The number of

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candidates seeking to
replace him as the

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Democratic nominee for
governor eventually surged

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to seven. But today there
are just four left, and

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after Tuesday night, the
party will seek to unite

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behind the winner against
the Republican nominee, Tom

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Tiffany.
>> You know, I think right

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now we are truly in a
movement moment.

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>> On a Wednesday night in
July. There's a packed

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house at the headquarters
of the Democratic Party of

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Ozaukee County. It's
standing room only to hear

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from Francesca Hong, the
frontrunner in the

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Democratic primary for
governor.

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>> I may not be the most
polished candidate. I know

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that there are questions
about executive experience

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and leadership.
>> A democratic socialist,

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Hong has served three terms
in the state Assembly. Not

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the typical resume for a
gubernatorial candidate.

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>> I would say one of the
most powerful messages that

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I carry with me in knowing
that maybe this is time for

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a leader like me.
>> Hong has consistently

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polled well ahead of the
rest of the field, and her

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political movement is built
on bringing new people into

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the voting booth.
>> It's imperative that we

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grow a coalition and the
electorate for Democrats to

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win power and maintain
power. We have to make sure

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that our coalition is
multigenerational,

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multi-faith and with
representing zip codes from

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all across the state. It's
exciting to hear folks have

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their plan to vote, and
it's their first time to

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vote.
>> Democracy can be messy,

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and.
>> David Crowley is now

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polling second. Just a few
weeks after he was out of

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the race altogether. He
dropped out in early July

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and endorsed Sara Rodriguez,
but then got back in after

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her campaign blew up a week
later, this time with the

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endorsement of Tony Evers.
The in and out maneuver is

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not recommended for
candidates, but Crowley

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probably got more attention
than if he was in the race

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the whole time.
>> Hindsight is always 2020,

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right? And so, you know,
trying to, you know, wonder

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what would have happened or
how things would have

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unfolded if I was in this
race. We don't know. I

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can't look into a crystal
ball, but we did see a

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resurgence of energy. I
mean, I think we had more

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people at our relaunch
party that was at our

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launch party.
>> Campaigns change in very

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short order.
>> Joel Brennan and Kelda

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Roys are the last two
Democrats in the race. They

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have consistently pulled in
the low single digits and

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share the idea that if more
people knew their names,

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they'd have more support.
>> My challenge from the

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beginning has been that I
am just not as well known

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as other candidates, not as
well known in some parts of

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the state. I think when
people have seen and heard

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from me, they understand my
experience, the work that

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I've done, the vision that
I have, like I win over

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lots of those people.
>> We need a candidate at

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the top of the ticket who
will not only beat Tom

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Tiffany, but help us
deliver a Democratic

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Assembly and Senate. And
most importantly, we need

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somebody who's actually
capable of doing the job of

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governing.
>> Are we going to stop big

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government socialism right
here in Wisconsin? Yeah.

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>> Waiting on the other
side of the primary is Tom

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Tiffany, a congressman from
northern Wisconsin who is

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largely unopposed in the
Republican primary.

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>> My mom quilts.
[MUSIC]

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>> I've been a dam tender,
a boat captain and a girl

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dad with perfect attendance
at 20 nutcrackers.

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[MUSIC]
>> Tiffany's record in

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Congress and the Wisconsin
legislature before that

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shows he's a far right
conservative, but he's

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spent millions introducing
himself to the state as a

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folksy everyman.
>> Tom, you know mom's

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gonna hold you to it.
[MUSIC]

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>> I wouldn't have it any
other way. Yeah. I mean, it

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was one of the goals from
the start was to make sure

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that people got to meet me
on my own terms.

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>> Democrats have spent
their millions on their own

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ads, but aren't worried.
Tiffany has gained too much

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of an advantage.
>> Tom Tiffany has been the

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frontrunner presumptive
nominee for months. To

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still be doing intro ads is
a little bit embarrassing.

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>> Listen, I like old
Fashioneds. I've got four

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daughters and a son. I like
going to The Nutcracker

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with them. That is not what
qualifies me to be governor.

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>> We don't have to
redefine. We just have to

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make sure that people know
who he is. Always been. And

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like my grandma used to say,
you know, when someone

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shows you who they are the
first time, you have to

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believe them.
>> Whoever wins this

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primary is going to come
out with wind at our back

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with momentum, and then
we'll be the time where Tom

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Tiffany can't just look
over his shoulder and talk

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about his mother. He's
going to have to look over

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his shoulder and talk about
Donald Trump.

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>> After the primary,
Tiffany's ads will have an

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opponent to attack by name.
And for his part, he says

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he's not worried about
which Democrat he faces.

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>> There really isn't a
dime's worth of difference

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between the candidates. I
mean, they're very similar,

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and whoever comes out of
the primary is going to be

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advocating for the same
stuff.

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>> Reporting from Muskego.
I'm Zac Schultz for Here

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and now. In this week's
Inside Wisconsin politics

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had more to say on the two
leading candidates. I'm

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joined by NPR's Shawn
Johnson, Anya van

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Wagtendonk and Rich Kremer.
>> It seems like just a few

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weeks ago on this show, we
were all kind of wondering

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where all these candidates
in this big primary fit.

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What were their political
lanes?

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>> Well, I think you have
the context of the national

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political mood for primary
voters, which are Democrats

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that are mainly angry at
Donald Trump and his

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administration there. If
you look at it in that

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frame, the establishment's
the bad guy. The

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establishment is national
Democrats who haven't done

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enough to stand up to Trump.
So tapping into those

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voters meant you couldn't
be the establishment

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because then you were on
the side of inertia. So

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Francesca Hong clearly
moved to the left. She was

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going to fight, fight,
fight. And a lot of the

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other Democrats in this
race were trying to

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outflank her, and they just
could not.

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has a particularly kind of
interesting personal

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really sort of impoverished,
challenged background in

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Milwaukee. And so up until,
you know, he dropped out

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the first time in this race,
he was kind of described as

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potentially not electable
because statewide, there's

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a there's sometimes, you
know, negative feelings

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about Milwaukee. There is,
you know, always the racial

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element of the fact that
there's never been a Black

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man elected to statewide
office in Wisconsin. So

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there were all these
questions about him. Then

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he comes back with the
endorsement of Tony Evers,

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and all of a sudden he's
described as the

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establishment. It's a
needle of I'm a viable

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candidate, but I will also
stand up to the things that

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you're angry about.
>> Crowley raised more than

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twice as much money during
the month of July. He

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raised $776,000 thereabout,
and Hong brought in around

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$339,000. So that is a big
sign that, at least in

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terms of money, Crowley's
campaign is getting some

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backing. And the other sign
that caught my attention

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was Governor Tony Evers,
you know, who endorsed

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Crowley's campaign, which
is definitely being framed

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as an alternative to
Francesca Hong. He also

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gave $20,000 from his from
Evers campaign account to

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Crowley's campaign account.
That's not a lot of money,

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but it could be a signal to
Evers donors, Evers

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supporters that I'm not
just saying I support this.

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I'm putting my money behind
it.

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>> Francesca Hong is
running a really unique,

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strange race. She has not
raised as much money, but

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it doesn't seem to matter.
She's making sort of

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headlines on her own, sort
of organically rather than

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through these paid ways.
And then all these other

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candidates are just trying
to kind of trying to to

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catch up.
>> And she's not putting

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herself on TV, but other
people are. You've had

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these Republican groups
consistently putting her in

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TV ads, calling her liberal
ahead of this primary.

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>> She has spent $0 on
television, which is just

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unheard of in any type of
serious race. And she's not

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running just a serious race.
She's running the leading

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race. She's doing some, you
know, digital media and

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things like this. But a lot
of her campaign is very

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grassroots, very kind of
door to door. And so you're

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right, when we see if you
see her face on your TV or

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on your your YouTube, it is
because these Republican

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groups are paying for ads
trying to get her over the

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finish line because they
think she's beatable. But

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meanwhile, she kind of says,
you know, thanks for for

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calling attention to my
policies.

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>> You can get the full
episode of Inside Wisconsin

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Politics wherever you get
your podcasts. Earlier this

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week, Madison police in
riot gear cleared out a

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protest encampment at the
intersection where an

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officer shot and killed
Corey Ruiz on July 22nd.

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For at least two nights,
protesters responded by

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throwing rocks and setting
fires in the street. More

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than two dozen people have
been arrested. In a written

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statement, the Ruiz family
denounced any affiliation

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with the encampment,
calling for people to be

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peaceful. Here and now,
reporter Murv Seymour was

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on the scene and brings us
this report.

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>> I personally do not plan
on leaving this space at

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all.
>> Going into the 13th day

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of this protest. The week
begins with tension and a

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seeming clock ticking at
the corners of Baldwin and

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Williamson streets. Just
how long could. And would

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this intersection where
Corey Ruiz was shot and

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killed by a Madison police
officer remain closed?

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>> I've been here since the
22nd.

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>> Some businesses stuck in
the past still shut down as

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city officials and
protesters work to hash out

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a resolution that comforts
both sides. Some community

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members demand a permanent
memorial to honor Corey

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Ruiz. City officials say
they're open to that, but

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want an end to the
encampment.

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>> And now the grief has
turned into anger. Now,

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because they're not moving
swiftly enough.

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>> That's what community
activist Jackie Morris says

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about police and the city's
investigation. He and

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others continue to demand
that the unidentified

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officer who pulled the
trigger is arrested and

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charged.
>> As a community, what are

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we doing here?
>> Azrael JD, who goes by

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the name spawn, wants to
see more than that.

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>> The perfect situation
would be a complete end to

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policing as we know it, at
least in the city of

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Madison. Policing should
lie in the hands of the

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community.
>> I'm sure if they

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00:10:58,425 --> 00:11:00,460
arrested him right now, at
this minute, all this would

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00:11:00,527 --> 00:11:03,096
go away with blink of an
eye.

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00:11:04,665 --> 00:11:07,167
week, all four corners
leading to the scene still

236
00:11:07,234 --> 00:11:09,403
cut off by homemade
blockades set up by

237
00:11:09,469 --> 00:11:12,973
protesters made of cars,
RVs, debris and at this

238
00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:17,044
section, a bed of nails.
>> What's his name?

239
00:11:20,914 --> 00:11:23,150
>> A day before the two
week mark of this

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00:11:23,217 --> 00:11:26,920
controversial shooting, in
what seems like a blink of

241
00:11:26,987 --> 00:11:30,090
an eye during a pre-dawn
raid, a swarm of nearly 50

242
00:11:30,157 --> 00:11:33,227
law enforcement officers
sweep in, clearing out with

243
00:11:33,293 --> 00:11:36,530
force what couldn't be
cleared out with patience,

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00:11:36,597 --> 00:11:39,967
compromise or negotiations.
>> By the time that I got

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00:11:40,033 --> 00:11:42,135
over here on all four of
these corners, there were

246
00:11:42,202 --> 00:11:46,106
dozens of cops out here,
dozens on every single

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00:11:46,173 --> 00:11:48,675
corner. And the mayor has
been like, oh, it's

248
00:11:48,742 --> 00:11:50,978
dangerous. The businesses
are against them. The

249
00:11:51,044 --> 00:11:53,847
neighbors are against them.
It's not sanitary. The food

250
00:11:53,914 --> 00:11:57,284
isn't safe. But they always
do that because they will

251
00:11:57,351 --> 00:11:59,753
always paint out community
protecting each other.

252
00:11:59,820 --> 00:12:03,390
>> Can you guys move off
the spot? I did.

253
00:12:04,124 --> 00:12:06,994
>> Kern Latinos.
>> Criticism over policing

254
00:12:07,060 --> 00:12:09,363
in Madison makes its way
all the way to leaders at

255
00:12:09,429 --> 00:12:11,665
City Hall.
>> How are we supposed to

256
00:12:11,732 --> 00:12:14,401
build trust with this? How
do you come back from this?

257
00:12:14,468 --> 00:12:16,470
>> This week's virtual
Common Council meeting

258
00:12:16,537 --> 00:12:19,373
lasts more than seven hours.
>> But my neighbors, the

259
00:12:19,439 --> 00:12:22,576
people I care about, they
are being terrorized every

260
00:12:22,643 --> 00:12:24,678
day by these police
officers.

261
00:12:24,745 --> 00:12:27,281
>> Three minutes at a time.
Almost 400 people

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00:12:27,347 --> 00:12:30,050
registered to speak, most
in support of more trauma

263
00:12:30,117 --> 00:12:31,785
inspired policing.
>> People need to have more

264
00:12:31,852 --> 00:12:34,755
of a grieving time for all
this.

265
00:12:35,656 --> 00:12:38,425
funding for.
>> Oversight without

266
00:12:38,492 --> 00:12:41,161
resources is not oversight.
>> In her first briefing

267
00:12:41,228 --> 00:12:43,797
with reporters flanked by
the police chief and other

268
00:12:43,864 --> 00:12:46,099
city leaders, the mayor
admits there's work to be

269
00:12:46,166 --> 00:12:48,068
done to better
relationships between

270
00:12:48,135 --> 00:12:50,971
police and the people
they're sworn to protect.

271
00:12:51,038 --> 00:12:54,575
>> I still believe that we
will do better working

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00:12:54,641 --> 00:12:58,612
together than causing more
harm and destruction. I

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00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:02,115
very much hope that our
community can come together,

274
00:13:02,182 --> 00:13:05,052
start listening to each
other across difference.

275
00:13:05,118 --> 00:13:07,120
Acknowledge some of the
deep structural issues in

276
00:13:07,187 --> 00:13:11,124
our society and focus on
how we move forward.

277
00:13:11,191 --> 00:13:13,327
>> I've identified some
areas that I think we're

278
00:13:13,393 --> 00:13:15,863
going to make immediate
progress on, hopefully in

279
00:13:15,929 --> 00:13:18,799
immediate steps, to do some
restructuring to help us

280
00:13:18,866 --> 00:13:21,835
get there. But that takes
time. And the mayor's point,

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00:13:21,902 --> 00:13:23,904
it's it's near impossible
to do it when you're in the

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00:13:23,971 --> 00:13:27,875
middle of a crisis.
>> For most of the week,

283
00:13:28,909 --> 00:13:30,744
traffic flows through this
traumatized community

284
00:13:30,811 --> 00:13:33,547
pretty much like normal.
But the sense of permanent

285
00:13:33,614 --> 00:13:36,650
peace and normalcy in and
around this intersection

286
00:13:36,717 --> 00:13:40,287
remains to be seen.
>> The community needs some

287
00:13:40,354 --> 00:13:43,490
kind of closure, and we
need to be able to trust

288
00:13:43,557 --> 00:13:46,393
the police, the ones who
protect and serve us

289
00:13:46,460 --> 00:13:48,962
instead of the community
against the police, the

290
00:13:49,029 --> 00:13:50,864
police against community.
>> And that's something

291
00:13:50,931 --> 00:13:54,468
both sides can agree on.
Reporting from Madison. I'm

292
00:13:54,535 --> 00:13:57,337
Murv Seymour for here and
Now.

293
00:13:58,071 --> 00:13:59,973
>> The First Amendment to
the Constitution protects

294
00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,276
our freedom of speech and
the freedom to assembly,

295
00:14:02,342 --> 00:14:04,745
including to protest. But
what are the limits to

296
00:14:04,811 --> 00:14:07,414
those rights? For that, we
welcome. UW-Madison

297
00:14:07,481 --> 00:14:09,650
political science professor
Emeritus Howard Schweber.

298
00:14:09,716 --> 00:14:11,618
Thanks for your time today.
>> Well, thank you for

299
00:14:11,685 --> 00:14:14,087
having me.
initially took over the

300
00:14:14,154 --> 00:14:16,690
intersection where a man
was shot and killed by

301
00:14:16,757 --> 00:14:19,860
police, they were
assemble. Were they still

302
00:14:19,927 --> 00:14:22,229
within their legal
constitutional rights to be

303
00:14:22,296 --> 00:14:25,265
in that public space?
>> No. Or to put it

304
00:14:25,332 --> 00:14:27,201
differently, not
necessarily. So let's back

305
00:14:27,267 --> 00:14:29,536
up a step. The way these
kind of rules, the way

306
00:14:29,603 --> 00:14:32,439
rights in general we talk
about them is not in terms

307
00:14:32,506 --> 00:14:35,442
of you have the right to do
X, but in terms, can the

308
00:14:35,509 --> 00:14:38,312
government stop you from
doing X? It's always a

309
00:14:38,378 --> 00:14:40,180
negative constraint on what
the government may do with

310
00:14:40,247 --> 00:14:43,250
the implication that
anything that's not

311
00:14:43,317 --> 00:14:45,752
left free to undertake. So
the rules are the

312
00:14:45,819 --> 00:14:47,621
government is perfectly
free to make what are

313
00:14:47,688 --> 00:14:50,858
called content neutral time,
place and manner

314
00:14:50,924 --> 00:14:52,993
regulations. And these are
things like don't use

315
00:14:53,060 --> 00:14:55,028
loudspeakers at night.
Don't camp overnight in a

316
00:14:55,095 --> 00:14:58,465
park. Those are actual old
cases. So there's no

317
00:14:58,532 --> 00:15:00,868
question that cities and
states have the authority

318
00:15:00,934 --> 00:15:03,437
to make those rules, so
long as they're content

319
00:15:03,504 --> 00:15:06,673
neutral. There are two
complicating factors. One

320
00:15:06,740 --> 00:15:08,842
is when a city or state
makes these rules, they

321
00:15:08,909 --> 00:15:12,279
have to be as little
restrictive of expression

322
00:15:12,346 --> 00:15:16,083
as is possible. The other
complicating factor is

323
00:15:16,149 --> 00:15:19,286
whatever rules are adopted,
there has to be adequate

324
00:15:19,353 --> 00:15:22,756
alternative avenues for
expression. So those are

325
00:15:22,823 --> 00:15:24,258
the broad general
principles. And having said

326
00:15:24,324 --> 00:15:26,727
all that, setting up an
encampment that blocks

327
00:15:26,793 --> 00:15:28,462
traffic and close
businesses. Yeah, that's

328
00:15:28,529 --> 00:15:30,998
very clearly something that
is not protected by the

329
00:15:31,064 --> 00:15:32,699
First Amendment and
something the government is

330
00:15:32,766 --> 00:15:34,868
perfectly free to put an
end to.

331
00:15:34,935 --> 00:15:37,137
>> So what happens then
when a city doesn't enforce

332
00:15:37,204 --> 00:15:39,640
those rules?
>> Right. So and of course,

333
00:15:39,706 --> 00:15:42,376
you know, I think we all
recognize that the broader

334
00:15:42,442 --> 00:15:44,711
context of this goes back
to Black Lives Matter and

335
00:15:44,778 --> 00:15:46,780
the pro-Palestinian
encampments that got so

336
00:15:46,847 --> 00:15:49,249
much attention during the
2024 presidential election,

337
00:15:49,316 --> 00:15:52,753
in the first months of
President Trump's term,

338
00:15:52,819 --> 00:15:54,988
we've seen a growth, a
considerable growth in the

339
00:15:55,055 --> 00:15:59,059
last few years of protests
and protests in the form of

340
00:15:59,126 --> 00:16:00,761
encampment. It's just
become a style of

341
00:16:00,827 --> 00:16:03,230
protesting that's become
popular. And one of the

342
00:16:03,297 --> 00:16:05,399
problems that raises is
precisely the problem you

343
00:16:05,465 --> 00:16:07,835
just mentioned, which is
and you're exactly right to

344
00:16:07,901 --> 00:16:11,205
ask that question what
happens if the application

345
00:16:11,271 --> 00:16:14,041
of the rules I'm talking
about the state is

346
00:16:14,107 --> 00:16:16,176
inconsistent? What if some
encampments allowed and

347
00:16:16,243 --> 00:16:19,446
others, you know, are taken
down? And that was

348
00:16:19,513 --> 00:16:21,949
precisely the claim that
was made in the case of the

349
00:16:22,015 --> 00:16:27,321
of the pro-Palestinian
encampments and pro-Israel

350
00:16:27,387 --> 00:16:29,690
legislators and citizens
who objected to the way

351
00:16:29,756 --> 00:16:31,725
they were being treated.
The claim was it was

352
00:16:31,792 --> 00:16:33,026
inconsistent. These
encampments were being

353
00:16:33,093 --> 00:16:35,195
allowed. These students
were being allowed were

354
00:16:35,262 --> 00:16:37,764
being allowed, being
permitted to be disruptive

355
00:16:37,831 --> 00:16:40,434
in a way that other student
protesters had not been. So

356
00:16:40,501 --> 00:16:42,769
a city or state can run
into trouble by showing

357
00:16:42,836 --> 00:16:46,006
favoritism as well as
disfavor. The flip side is

358
00:16:46,073 --> 00:16:48,575
whether we're talking about
a city or a university, or

359
00:16:48,642 --> 00:16:50,677
a state government, or any
police force. Discretion is

360
00:16:50,744 --> 00:16:54,014
always part of the job
description. Using your

361
00:16:54,081 --> 00:16:57,451
judgment, deciding when to
step in, deciding how much

362
00:16:57,518 --> 00:17:00,020
leeway to allow. And that
always opens the

363
00:17:00,087 --> 00:17:02,389
possibility of someone
claiming you're being

364
00:17:02,456 --> 00:17:03,891
inconsistent.
>> So we've talked about

365
00:17:03,957 --> 00:17:07,027
the word encampment coming
around in protest movements

366
00:17:07,094 --> 00:17:09,930
more. And, you know, we can
go back 15 years to the act

367
00:17:09,997 --> 00:17:13,066
ten protests where the
capital was occupied for

368
00:17:13,133 --> 00:17:16,103
more than a month. There
were protest zones within

369
00:17:16,170 --> 00:17:18,772
there where the protesters
themselves prevented media

370
00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:20,641
from accessing certain
halls, legislators from

371
00:17:20,707 --> 00:17:23,544
getting to their offices.
That was negotiated in

372
00:17:23,610 --> 00:17:26,513
terms of how people would
exit the capital, the

373
00:17:26,580 --> 00:17:28,615
preservation of materials.
There were very few arrests

374
00:17:28,682 --> 00:17:31,385
down to the last handful of
people brought out,

375
00:17:31,451 --> 00:17:34,354
obviously, the Palestinian
protest encampment on

376
00:17:34,421 --> 00:17:37,224
UW-Madison required police
intervention. This one did.

377
00:17:37,291 --> 00:17:39,626
>> Well, we should be clear
on this. The Palestinian

378
00:17:39,693 --> 00:17:42,262
protest in Kamala Madison
was tolerated for a

379
00:17:42,329 --> 00:17:45,933
considerable period of time.
The university and, you

380
00:17:45,999 --> 00:17:48,535
know, this is the bind that
they're in. They tried to

381
00:17:48,602 --> 00:17:51,171
do this with a gentle hand.
They tried to exercise

382
00:17:51,238 --> 00:17:53,073
discretion to maximize the
ability of students to

383
00:17:53,140 --> 00:17:55,909
express themselves. They
tried to find a balance

384
00:17:55,976 --> 00:18:00,147
between allowing this, this
expressive activity to go

385
00:18:00,214 --> 00:18:02,850
forward while preventing
disruption. But that

386
00:18:02,916 --> 00:18:05,352
becomes the problem. So
take Acton, for example,

387
00:18:05,419 --> 00:18:07,821
many conservatives who
oppose the protests who

388
00:18:07,888 --> 00:18:10,090
supported Governor Walker
were deeply upset. Why are

389
00:18:10,157 --> 00:18:12,259
the police not throwing
these people out? Why are

390
00:18:12,326 --> 00:18:14,528
they letting these people
occupy our Capitol building

391
00:18:14,595 --> 00:18:16,964
and prevent the business of
the government from going

392
00:18:17,030 --> 00:18:19,066
forward? Would they do the
same if this were the Ku

393
00:18:19,132 --> 00:18:21,268
Klux Klan? And again,
they're not wrong. The

394
00:18:21,335 --> 00:18:24,838
answer, I hope, is no. So
this just gets back to the

395
00:18:24,905 --> 00:18:27,841
point I was making earlier.
There is a history of

396
00:18:27,908 --> 00:18:29,710
encampments and takeovers.
In recent years,

397
00:18:29,776 --> 00:18:31,311
governments have been
wrestling with them, and

398
00:18:31,378 --> 00:18:34,481
the politics around those
government responses has

399
00:18:34,548 --> 00:18:38,018
been so amplified and made
so partizan and fraught

400
00:18:38,085 --> 00:18:40,220
because of the way Trump
treated those issues when

401
00:18:40,287 --> 00:18:44,758
he ran for president in
2024, that now, you know,

402
00:18:44,825 --> 00:18:47,661
all the cities,
universities, states are on

403
00:18:47,728 --> 00:18:50,964
tenterhooks trying to
way to proceed. And the

404
00:18:51,031 --> 00:18:53,867
error on the side of
caution is intervening and

405
00:18:53,934 --> 00:18:56,170
moving the encampments out
rather than being unduly

406
00:18:56,236 --> 00:18:58,272
tolerant.
>> So kind of put a bow on

407
00:18:58,338 --> 00:19:02,142
this in terms of the First
Amendment and protesters,

408
00:19:02,209 --> 00:19:04,144
well, it's my First
Amendment rights. What is

409
00:19:04,211 --> 00:19:06,079
the great confusion there
that comes within the

410
00:19:06,146 --> 00:19:07,881
bounds of your rights
versus someone else's

411
00:19:07,948 --> 00:19:11,118
rights?
version is you have a right

412
00:19:11,185 --> 00:19:13,387
to protest up to the point
where you're disrupting

413
00:19:13,453 --> 00:19:15,889
other people's ability to
go about their day. This is

414
00:19:15,956 --> 00:19:18,292
a simplistic, simplistic
version, of course, but

415
00:19:18,358 --> 00:19:20,494
it's not far off if you
block streets, if you block

416
00:19:20,561 --> 00:19:22,629
sidewalks, if you block
access to businesses, if

417
00:19:22,696 --> 00:19:25,232
you block people's ability
to get out of their home,

418
00:19:25,299 --> 00:19:27,301
if you disrupt the
operation of classrooms,

419
00:19:27,367 --> 00:19:30,237
for example, none of those
is protected by the First

420
00:19:30,304 --> 00:19:33,073
Amendment. The First
right to express yourself

421
00:19:33,140 --> 00:19:35,676
in ways that are peaceful
and discursive. There

422
00:19:35,742 --> 00:19:39,880
simply is no protection for
engaging in, well, civil

423
00:19:39,947 --> 00:19:42,416
disobedience. And the
reason we call it civil

424
00:19:42,482 --> 00:19:44,985
disobedience is that when
you do that, when you

425
00:19:45,052 --> 00:19:48,255
deliberately march into a
racially segregated lunch

426
00:19:48,322 --> 00:19:51,825
counter and integrate it,
right, you acknowledge you

427
00:19:51,892 --> 00:19:54,561
risk being arrested and
suffering the punishment.

428
00:19:54,628 --> 00:19:57,197
That's part of the whole
civil disobedience paradigm.

429
00:19:57,264 --> 00:19:59,533
And it's an honorable it
can be a very honorable

430
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,169
thing. But there is not a
First Amendment right to

431
00:20:02,236 --> 00:20:04,238
engage in acts that would
otherwise be crimes.

432
00:20:04,304 --> 00:20:06,039
>> All right, Professor
Schweber, thanks for your

433
00:20:06,106 --> 00:20:08,709
time today.
>> Another battle between

434
00:20:08,775 --> 00:20:11,378
property owners in the Lac
du Flambeau band of Lake

435
00:20:11,445 --> 00:20:14,581
Superior Chippewa is in
court. The tribe recently

436
00:20:14,648 --> 00:20:16,984
declared non-Native peoples
could not fish for walleye

437
00:20:17,050 --> 00:20:19,887
and muskie in lakes within
tribal territory. And

438
00:20:19,953 --> 00:20:22,289
they're now facing a
federal lawsuit. “Here&

439
00:20:22,356 --> 00:20:24,725
Now” reporter Erica Ayisi
traveled to the Northwoods

440
00:20:24,791 --> 00:20:27,327
to hear how tribal members
feel about their

441
00:20:27,394 --> 00:20:29,630
sovereignty being
challenged in court. This

442
00:20:29,696 --> 00:20:32,432
report is in collaboration
with Eich T, formerly

443
00:20:32,499 --> 00:20:36,837
Indian Country, today.
>> I feel strongly that

444
00:20:39,072 --> 00:20:41,775
everyone needs to take care
of what we have on earth.

445
00:20:41,842 --> 00:20:46,180
That means our water, our
land, and everyone's

446
00:20:46,780 --> 00:20:49,283
well-being.
>> Bagwajikwe Madosh is a

447
00:20:49,349 --> 00:20:51,618
citizen of the Lac du
Flambeau band of Lake

448
00:20:51,685 --> 00:20:54,354
Superior Chippewa Indians,
and she says she believes

449
00:20:54,421 --> 00:20:58,091
in preserving Ojibwe
traditions, which the Lac

450
00:20:58,158 --> 00:21:00,994
du Flambeau tribe is
defending in federal court.

451
00:21:01,061 --> 00:21:04,398
>> Let us do what we know
best replenish our lakes,

452
00:21:04,464 --> 00:21:08,202
keep our grounds clean, our
forests long.

453
00:21:08,268 --> 00:21:10,938
>> Interlaken Lake is one
of 19 lakes within the Lac

454
00:21:11,004 --> 00:21:13,807
du Flambeau Reservation
that a federal judge

455
00:21:13,874 --> 00:21:16,376
temporarily blocked the
tribe from, banning

456
00:21:16,443 --> 00:21:18,979
nonmembers from fishing
walleye and muskellunge in

457
00:21:19,046 --> 00:21:21,949
fish.
>> We replenish the fish,

458
00:21:22,883 --> 00:21:26,486
we replenish, we take.
>> DOGE says their fish

459
00:21:26,553 --> 00:21:28,889
hatchery helps to maintain
their stock, but says

460
00:21:28,956 --> 00:21:31,925
there's concern about the
fish population.

461
00:21:31,992 --> 00:21:36,463
>> It's not what you use it
and then go on with life

462
00:21:36,530 --> 00:21:39,533
without knowing what's
going to come next.

463
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,269
>> The state of Wisconsin
sued the tribe for blocking

464
00:21:42,336 --> 00:21:45,539
nonmembers from fishing in
certain lakes. Tribal

465
00:21:45,606 --> 00:21:48,742
President John Johnson said
the fish population is

466
00:21:48,809 --> 00:21:52,112
declining but needed to
feed their 4000 tribal

467
00:21:52,179 --> 00:21:54,982
members.
change, a lot of it's

468
00:21:55,415 --> 00:21:57,217
logging structure,
infrastructure, everything

469
00:21:57,284 --> 00:21:59,386
that goes on in our
territory. We're here to

470
00:21:59,453 --> 00:22:01,555
protect it.
>> Madhosh says. There's

471
00:22:01,622 --> 00:22:04,291
overfishing on their lakes
and rivers.

472
00:22:04,358 --> 00:22:09,029
>> We need to all limit
what we take, you know, and

473
00:22:09,096 --> 00:22:13,767
many people are taking what
many people can have as

474
00:22:14,468 --> 00:22:16,770
well.
>> Flambeau Lake is also

475
00:22:16,837 --> 00:22:19,373
mentioned in the lawsuit
against the tribe.

476
00:22:19,439 --> 00:22:23,810
>> Walz, which is Lake of
the Flaming Torches.

477
00:22:23,877 --> 00:22:26,647
>> Adrian King grew up here
and has seen new neighbors

478
00:22:26,713 --> 00:22:29,616
over the years.
>> A lot of these are

479
00:22:29,683 --> 00:22:32,419
non-native houses, as far
as I know.

480
00:22:32,486 --> 00:22:35,255
>> He says he supports the
tribe in responding to a

481
00:22:35,322 --> 00:22:38,225
second federal lawsuit
involving the tribe, this

482
00:22:38,292 --> 00:22:41,528
one filed by the White Sand
Lake Association, a group

483
00:22:41,595 --> 00:22:44,665
of non-Native homeowners
who are suing the tribe for

484
00:22:44,731 --> 00:22:47,968
access to use a boat launch
on a private property on

485
00:22:48,035 --> 00:22:52,172
the shoreline of White Sand
Lake that's within the

486
00:22:52,239 --> 00:22:55,042
reservation.
>> At least, are

487
00:22:55,876 --> 00:23:00,013
experimenting, are flexing
their sovereignty a little

488
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,282
bit more.
>> The tribe says the lake

489
00:23:02,349 --> 00:23:05,519
is threatened by documented
environmental concerns,

490
00:23:05,586 --> 00:23:08,689
including the presence of
Eurasian watermilfoil, an

491
00:23:08,755 --> 00:23:11,925
invasive species under
Wisconsin law, saying it

492
00:23:11,992 --> 00:23:14,661
threatens their cultural
resources along the

493
00:23:14,728 --> 00:23:16,263
shoreline.
>> However, the information

494
00:23:16,330 --> 00:23:20,501
and data came from whether
it was our own or the

495
00:23:20,567 --> 00:23:24,471
state's, we, we. We pay
attention to that.

496
00:23:26,173 --> 00:23:28,775
>> According to the lawsuit,
the association is asking

497
00:23:28,842 --> 00:23:31,445
the Federal court to decide
whether a tribal government

498
00:23:31,512 --> 00:23:35,349
may regulate the activities
of nonmembers on a fee.

499
00:23:35,415 --> 00:23:38,385
Simple, privately owned
land and navigable waters

500
00:23:38,452 --> 00:23:42,222
in the state of Wisconsin.
Tory Dolan, assistant

501
00:23:42,289 --> 00:23:45,659
professor of law at the
University of Wisconsin and

502
00:23:45,726 --> 00:23:47,961
citizen of the Choctaw
Nation of Oklahoma, says

503
00:23:48,028 --> 00:23:50,797
the United States
recognizes Indian tribes as

504
00:23:50,864 --> 00:23:53,667
sovereign nations who have
the right to govern

505
00:23:53,734 --> 00:23:57,004
themselves, their members,
and their territories.

506
00:23:57,070 --> 00:23:59,506
>> It means that they're
exercising their ability to

507
00:23:59,573 --> 00:24:02,576
have a say over what
happens in their territory

508
00:24:02,643 --> 00:24:05,279
and in their community.
>> When we talk about, they

509
00:24:05,345 --> 00:24:09,283
can govern themselves. What
does that mean for the

510
00:24:09,349 --> 00:24:11,785
communities that are around
them?

511
00:24:11,852 --> 00:24:14,688
>> Generally, just being in
tribal territory, you are

512
00:24:14,755 --> 00:24:17,791
going to interact with
tribal law in some capacity.

513
00:24:17,858 --> 00:24:20,527
>> Dolan says the Lac du
Flambeau reservation is

514
00:24:20,594 --> 00:24:22,596
checkerboarded with
non-tribal members

515
00:24:22,663 --> 00:24:25,065
purchasing property there
because of the Dawes Act or

516
00:24:25,132 --> 00:24:28,035
General Allotment Act of
1887.

517
00:24:28,735 --> 00:24:31,538
>> Congress created the
Dawes Act, which authorized

518
00:24:31,605 --> 00:24:34,741
Indian agents to go into
tribal communities, parcel

519
00:24:34,808 --> 00:24:38,212
out the communal land, sell
the surplus.

520
00:24:38,278 --> 00:24:41,215
>> In a different federal
case. Last year, a judge

521
00:24:41,281 --> 00:24:44,184
sided with non-tribal
homeowners in a dispute

522
00:24:44,251 --> 00:24:47,621
over access to four tribal
roads that led to private

523
00:24:47,688 --> 00:24:50,424
properties on the Lac du
Flambeau reservation.

524
00:24:50,490 --> 00:24:52,793
>> The Bureau of Indian
Affairs approved these

525
00:24:52,860 --> 00:24:56,129
easements, and once they
expired, the tribe sought

526
00:24:56,196 --> 00:24:58,599
to assert their property
rights by closing these

527
00:24:58,665 --> 00:25:01,768
roads.
was motivated by a belief

528
00:25:01,835 --> 00:25:05,172
that Native American
Indians would die out,

529
00:25:05,239 --> 00:25:08,208
assimilate or be
indistinguishable from

530
00:25:08,275 --> 00:25:10,777
non-Indian populations.
>> That's why we have so

531
00:25:10,844 --> 00:25:14,114
many legal and political
issues today, because they

532
00:25:14,181 --> 00:25:17,885
really didn't expect tribes
and tribal people to endure.

533
00:25:17,951 --> 00:25:20,587
>> Dolan says. She believes
it's important.

534
00:25:20,654 --> 00:25:23,290
>> Their ability to enforce
their own laws means their

535
00:25:23,357 --> 00:25:25,926
ability to continue to
exist as a people, to

536
00:25:25,993 --> 00:25:29,263
continue to exist in their
territory and to protect

537
00:25:29,329 --> 00:25:32,666
the area.
>> King says. In times like

538
00:25:33,967 --> 00:25:37,070
these, the different tribes
in Wisconsin come together.

539
00:25:37,137 --> 00:25:40,807
>> They feel a part of the
tribe or a tribe, and they

540
00:25:40,874 --> 00:25:44,311
want to do their part to
protect it.

541
00:25:44,378 --> 00:25:48,749
>> We as a people want to
keep our earth as clean as

542
00:25:48,815 --> 00:25:50,417
possible.
>> Meadows says the pending

543
00:25:50,484 --> 00:25:53,320
federal lawsuits involving
the Lac du Flambeau are

544
00:25:53,387 --> 00:25:56,123
about keeping their tribal
sovereignty.

545
00:25:56,190 --> 00:25:59,459
>> That's the main one that
we need to keep for

546
00:25:59,526 --> 00:26:01,662
ourselves.
>> And maintaining their

547
00:26:01,728 --> 00:26:04,998
culture.
>> And for our children for

548
00:26:05,065 --> 00:26:07,835
times coming in.
>> Lac du Flambeau. I'm

549
00:26:07,901 --> 00:26:11,371
Eric Ayisi for Here and Now
and I see T.

550
00:26:12,306 --> 00:26:15,008
>> For more on this and
other issues facing

551
00:26:15,075 --> 00:26:17,744
Wisconsin, visit our
website at PBS

552
00:26:17,811 --> 00:26:20,013
wisconsin.org and then
click on the news tab. That

553
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,015
is our program for tonight.
Frederica Freyberg will be

554
00:26:22,082 --> 00:26:24,351
back next week. I'm Zac
Schultz have a great

555
00:26:24,418 --> 00:26:26,086
weekend.
[MUSIC]

556
00:26:35,329 --> 00:26:40,000
>> Funding for "Here& Now"
is provided by the Focus

557
00:26:46,340 --> 00:26:51,011
Fund for Journalism and
friends of PBS Wisconsin.