>> The following program is a PBS Wisconsin original
production. >> People in the United
States do not want this war. People are against this war.
>> Antiwar protests turn out in Wisconsin to oppose
U.S. strikes against Iran, even as many Iranian
Americans embrace the military intervention,
hoping for change. I'm Frederica Freyberg. Tonight
on "Here& Now", we hear from both Wisconsin U.S.
senators on the war with Iran and exploratory
drilling in the Northwoods hopes to bring metallic
mining back to Wisconsin. It's "Here& Now" for March
6th. >> Funding for "Here& Now"
is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and
Friends of PBS Wisconsin. >> The U.S. war in Iraq
wages on with no letup in sight. The Wisconsin Army
National Guard has more than 400 troops on the
ground in Kuwait and Iraq, and were praised for their
value to the mission by the U.S. commanding general. As
to potential domestic threats, late this week,
Senate Democrats once again blocked Department of
Homeland Security funding, which Republicans pounced
on. We asked Wisconsin U.S. senators about that issue
and the war itself. When we spoke with them just ahead
of that DHS funding vote. We start with Democratic
Senator Tammy Baldwin. Thanks very much for being
here. >> Thanks for having me.
>> So you voted this week in favor of a war Powers
resolution to block future U.S. military action in
Iran. It failed mostly on party lines. But describe
why you voted for it. >> Look, first of all,
Americans have been clear. They do not want another
forever war in the Middle East. They want Congress
and this president to be focused on needs at home,
addressing the high cost of things like groceries,
housing, child care, and health care. And this
president, in fact, promised that he would
bring foreign wars to an end, not start them. Let me
be very clear. This is a war of choice. The US and
US interests were not under attack, nor were we under
imminent threat of attack. And because of that, this
is a war of choice. And the president needed to go to
Congress to get authorization. It is an
illegal war because of his failure to do that. I voted
to bring this to an end and and would note, though,
that it is the proponents of this war who bear the
burden of getting congressional authorization
for it, and they have failed to do that. The
Constitution makes it the responsibility of Congress,
who represent the people to declare war. And that has
not happened. And instead, we are spending billions of
dollars each day in this war, and we're losing the
lives of our troops, including six who have lost
their lives in this conflict so far.
>> You say that Iran poses a real threat. Then why not
take decisive action to thwart them?
>> I took decisive action in 2015 when I voted for
the Iran nuclear deal. I believe that this dangerous
and murderous regime should never have a nuclear weapon.
And that 2015 Iran nuclear deal reined in their
nuclear program. Diplomacy is the way to address this.
Sadly, when President Trump took office in his first
term, he ripped up the Iran nuclear deal and let that
program continue unfettered by intrusive international
inspection. That was a very bad mistake on President
Trump's part, and has led to Iran continuing with its
nuclear program, its ballistic missile program.
So that's the way we rein them in is through
diplomacy, hard diplomacy, but through diplomacy, not
war. >> Does it matter that the
administration's justification for the
strikes was changing in the early days?
>> It matters significantly that from almost hour to
hour, there was a new reason why the Trump
administration said it was contemplating military
action and then engaging in it. So a few weeks ago,
reacting to the uprising within Iran against the
regime and their economic situation, President Trump
said, we're contemplating military action to support
those protesters. A few weeks later, he was talking
about the nuclear program. Then he was talking about
the ballistic missile program. Then he was
talking about regime change. What is crystal clear is
that this is a war of choice, and that this
administration has articulated no specific
reason or strategy or exit strategy, which is
something that we need to hear from this
administration. >> What are your utmost
concerns about this war? >> Look, I think that this
is something that could become a regional war. It
already is. Let's be clear in in response to to our
attacks, along with the Israeli strikes, Iran has
sent drones and ballistic missiles to countries all
across the region. This is exactly what this president
promised to get us out of, not get us into. And I'm
very worried about the loss of life, both civilian
allied troops as well as our troops, and the
exorbitant expense that this will cost to have such
a military operation continue on, maybe for
weeks, maybe for months. I'm very, very worried
about it. And it also means that this this president's
attention is once again somewhere else. Venezuela
boats in the Pacific and Caribbean. Now Iran, his
focus is not on the concerns of Wisconsinites
every day, concerns like the high cost of things and
barely being able to get by. >> What is your message to
men and women from Wisconsin National Guard
now serving as part of this war mission?
>> My message to those serving in theater, but
also those serving their country, is thank you for
your service and we will do our best to make sure that
service is and make sure that the war that is
ongoing becomes something that is the subject of
congressional debate, so that the people of this
nation, your parents, your, your families have a say in
whether we continue this or not.
>> In June, when the when the US launched strikes
against Iran, there was a public facing heightened
threat alert for inside the US. Now I see that the
National Terrorism Advisory System says due to the
lapse in federal funding, its website will not be
actively managed. What is your response to that?
>> So Democrats are moving forward to make sure that
the Department of Homeland Security operations are
funded, except for ICE operations and Border
Patrol operations, because they have shown themselves
in our neighboring state of Minnesota, as well as other
states, to be acting as a rogue agencies, and they
need to be reined in. But we're offering Republicans
the opportunity to fund all other activities of the
Department of Homeland Security, except for Ice
and Border Patrol. >> We leave it there.
Senator Tammy Baldwin, thank you so much.
>> Thank you for having me. >> We turn now to
Republican U.S. Senator Ron Johnson on the war with
Iran. And, Senator, thanks very much for being here.
>> Thanks for having me on. >> So you voted this week
against a War Powers resolution to block future
U.S. military action in Iran. It failed mostly on
party lines. But describe why you voted against it.
>> Well, first of all, we have to recognize Iran has
been at war with us for 47 years in a low grade war.
But they have the the blood of hundreds, maybe
thousands of Americans on their hands. The largest
state sponsor of terror. They've declared that we
are, you know, death to America, death to Israel.
They are a menace. They threaten world peace. They
threaten regional peace. And at some point in time,
we simply weren't going to be able to deal with them.
If they became a nuclear power or they build up
their, their missile inventory to such an extent
that you couldn't act. And President Trump decided
this the moment to act. You cannot have 535 commanders
in chief, quite honestly, even a full blown
discussion prior to the military action would have
completely neutered our ability to to take the type
of decisive action we've taken. So again, the
Constitution means something to me. We have a
commander in chief. Yes. Congress is is charged with
declaring war, but we haven't declared war since
World War Two. And look at all the military
interventions from both Republican and Democrat
administrations. So this is the way things are right
now. And when information really travels the speed of
light, you've got to make quick decisions. And that's
why we have a a commander in chief.
>> Does it does it matter in your mind that the
administration's justification for the
the first days? >> I think there's multiple
reasons. Again, you know, it's not like we declared
war on Iran. They declared war on us. And this has
just been ongoing there. The threat has been
persistent. And at some point in time, we were
going to have to act. And good, good thing that we
did act before it was too late.
>> How do you think this will progress or escalate
and ultimately end? >> Well, I think the
administration, the in terms of his war aims
destroy their missile capability launchers. The
missiles themselves are manufacturing capabilities,
destroy their navy so they can't, you know, stop the
flow of oil, make sure that they will never have a
nuclear weapon. Those those are three war aims.
President Trump is highly reluctant to put boots on
the ground. That's why he's encouraging the Iranian
people. This is the moment of the regime's weakness.
Take advantage of it. Take back your country. I
sincerely hope Iranian people do that. But again,
this this is not he's he's not going to ensure regime
change. That's going to be up to the Iranian people.
And I hope they do, because if they do, what we will be
witnessing is just historic opportunity to create far
greater peace and stability, not only in the Middle East
but throughout the world. >> How concerning is it
that this has spread to the entire region?
>> Well, that's Iran's doing. I mean, that just
shows what a persistent threat they are. You know,
normally if you go to war, you want to try and find
allies. They're just creating greater enemies.
So again, that just proves the point. Iran was going
to have to be taken care of at some point in time. I
guess this is that point in time. And I for one, hope
the regime falls and that the Iranian people take
over Iran for the benefit of themselves.
>> How how does that work? How do the Iranians take
over their country? >> It's going to be very
difficult. I mean, there's again, there's no guarantee
whatsoever. There's 200,000 in the Revolutionary Guard.
There's another 600,000 in their militias, the brutal
militias that slaughtered 32,000 Iranians in just a
few days. You know, there were 16 or 17,000
executions in the French Revolution, 2 to 5000
executions during the Spanish Inquisition. Just
puts you puts the Iranian regime how brutal they are
just in context. So again, this is this is an evil
regime. The sooner they're gone, the better.
>> What is your message to men and women from
Wisconsin now serving as part of the war mission?
>> First of all, thank you for your service and
Godspeed. It's tragic. I mean, you know, we have a
mom from Wisconsin who lost her daughter from White
Bear Lake. I mean, you read about that. It's just it's
just absolutely tragic. So nobody, nobody wants to see
these types of fatalities. But unfortunately, that's
that's what happens when you have an evil regime
like Iran that threatens everybody that has to be
taken care of. >> You know, this question,
is it the United States right to take out other
countries rulers, even with the Ronald Reagan executive
order that bans such assassinations?
>> I don't know how many times I have to point this
out. We didn't start this. All Iran would have had to
do is agree not to obtain a nuclear weapon, stop
enriching uranium if they want nuclear power by the
power rods, that's all they had to do. There wouldn't
have been sanctions, there wouldn't be bombs dropping.
But they refused to do that. Take that one simple step.
And the fact that they didn't do that, as I said,
speaks volumes and just shows what a menace they
were. So we we had to take them out. And again, I do
not mourn the loss of Khomeini and the people
underneath him. >> What about the way
people on the other side of the aisle are talking about
how it should have been diplomacy that solved this?
>> We've been we've been trying diplomacy for 47
years with Iran. Obviously, it was never going to work.
We could not allow them. And even the other side of
the aisle will say, we can't allow them to become
a nuclear power. Well, what are we going to do to stop
them? Eventually they're going to become a nuclear
power. Then they would have been untouchable. President
Trump's prevented them from ever reaching that stage.
>> Now, the National Terrorism Advisory System
says due to the lapse in federal funding, the
website will not be actively managed. So what
is your response to that? >> We ought to fund DHS. I
mean, it's incredible to me that, you know, at this
moment of danger for our homeland, Democrats are
still digging their heels in not funding DHS. And the
excuse they're using is they want to defund ICE.
Well, ICE is fully funded. Ice agents are getting
paychecks. It's the other components of DHS that
aren't. And there are a lot of components, DHS, that
that work to try and keep us safe. So I think it's
unconscionable. The defund DHS.
>> All right, Senator Johnson, thank you very
much. >> Have a good day.
>> Right now in northern Wisconsin, crews are
working around the clock to drill deep into the bedrock.
It's called exploratory drilling. And the goal is
to determine if a deposit of copper, gold and other
minerals in the rock is rich enough to bring
metallic sulfide mining back to the state. Here and
now, senior political reporter Zac Schultz has
the story. >> What we have going on
here is the drilling process has just started.
>> It's a Sunday morning in the Chequamegon-nicolet
National Forest in Taylor County. A drill team out of
Minnesota is making the final site preparations,
digging a sump pit that will hold cuttings from the
drilling that is about to begin. Steve Donahue is on
the board of directors for Greenlight Metals, the
company behind the exploratory drilling.
>> And so the drill crew is getting ready to start
coring the bedrock. Okay. And that's a hollow barrel
with a diamond impregnated tip on it. And it just cuts
out a cylinder of the rock going down.
>> The drill team will cut ten feet of bedrock. Use
this tip, called a water swivel, to pull up the core
and repeat. >> This particular hole
will go down about 1500 feet.
>> Greenlight Field geologists will then box up
the cores and bring them back to their facility.
>> They log the geology, process the core, cut it up
into segments, send it off to a lab where the lab
tests it for things like copper and gold and
tellurium. >> Greenlight metals
conducted exploratory drilling at the site last
summer. >> What we're seeing is
about 2 to 3% copper in the ore, or what we would call.
Or if you look at the average deposit that's
being mined in the world, it's maybe half a percent.
>> The site is known as the bend deposit, and it was
first identified and explored in the 1980s.
>> So each of these is a drill hole.
>> Eric Quigley is Greenlight Metals director
of exploration. A computer model shows every
exploratory hole drilled at the site in the last 40
years. >> That red represents the
copper, you know, primarily the copper and gold
mineralization that we've identified.
>> The current drilling is trying to expand the
picture to see if the deposit runs deeper than
previously known. The cores from last summer were
promising. They used a red marker to circle flecks of
gold in the bedrock. >> The visible gold within,
I think, is about roughly two meters, probably
averaging about a third a third of an ounce per ton,
which is extremely, extremely high grade
material. >> They have conservative
projections of what's in the bend deposit.
>> 4 million tons of ore, copper grade ore that was
about 1 to 2% copper with good grades of gold. And
now we're finding tellurium in there. What we're hoping
to do is to expand the tonnage of that by drilling
other areas around this deposit.
>> The results were enough for Greenlight Metals to
secure another $11 million in funding from investors
to continue the exploratory drilling. But that doesn't
mean a mine is coming to Taylor County in the
immediate future. >> So we're years away from
ever from being at the point where we would
actually start the permitting process with the
DNR and the federal government on an actual
mine out there. >> Previous mining
proposals in Wisconsin have received hostile reactions.
So Greenlight Metals is being proactive in
community outreach, presenting updates to
groups like the Westboro Town Board.
>> We want to be coming in and talking to you and
other local units of government, because I think
your input is going to be important and we want to
factor that in. The public, I would say, is about 70%
enthusiastic about the potential. And then there's
another group of people who obviously have concerns
about what it means for the environment.
>> I know you guys take water from the yellow River
to the drilling. What kind? What is there in the permit
that maintains a minimum flow in the yellow River?
>> The concerns are primarily focused on
environmental impact. The bend deposit is under
national forest land in just a few hundred yards
from the yellow River. >> We just keep each other
informed, informed about the issues. Protecting the
environment. >> Scott Stalheim and Cathy
Mauer are part of a group called friends of the
yellow River. >> I think there should not
be mining in this area for a lot of those reasons.
That's my personal opinion, and I think many of the
friends of the yellow River would feel that way.
>> The group is small and private, mainly focused on
educating members. An open question is whether they
should become more public and vocal.
>> We had quite a few people with different
opinions. because it's just
exploratory mining that, well, it doesn't matter
much. And until a real mine comes, then we'll start to
worry about it. >> I think it's a
fundamentally incompatible land use to have on our
national forest. >> One group that is
publicly opposing the drilling is the Wisconsin
chapter of the Sierra Club. Dave Blouin is the state
mining committee chair. >> The environment here is
especially water rich, and that makes it really almost
incompatible with modern mining, especially metallic
sulfide mining. >> The issue is the copper
and gold are found within bedrock heavy with sulfides.
As you can see in the cores from the bend deposit.
>> There's a very stark contrast between the
unmineralized rock and the heavy sulfide content.
>> After the ore is mined, it has to be processed.
Sulfides in the rock produce acid when exposed
to air and water. >> Imagine a finely ground
up, almost powdery waste material that's that's left
over from the processing to skim off the metals in the
first place. And you have this acid producing
material that is chock full of nasty toxics that if
they get into groundwater or surface waters or
wetlands, are absolutely polluting and damaging to
the environment. So this includes lead, mercury,
arsenic. >> Most of the
environmental damage from metallic sulfide mining
comes from leaks at the tailings facilities
polluting the groundwater. >> That's an area that has
gone through tremendous changes in terms of how the
tailings facilities are managed.
>> This video shows the processing plant and
tailings facility for the Eagle Mine, a metallic
sulfide copper mine in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.
Donohue says they don't have designs yet, but a
processing facility in Wisconsin would have an
engineered liner and a drainage system and would
be capped at the end of its lifespan.
>> So it's very analogous to what you would see for a
municipal waste landfill. >> He also says the ore
wouldn't be processed in the national forest. Bend
is one of four deposits across northern Wisconsin
they would hope to mine, and the processing and
tailings facility would be at one centralized location.
>> And that allows us to then capitalize, create
economies of scale where we can have a pipeline of
projects that over a generation or multiple
generations are feeding into that operation.
>> Blouin says green light is the fourth company to
explore bend, and each previous effort has shown
it wasn't economically viable.
>> The overall deposit at bend is under 2% copper,
meaning 98% of the material that comes out is waste.
>> Donohue says a lot has changed since the last
exploration at bend. For one, the demand for copper
is up, raising the price for copper.
>> So there's a lot more demand in the system
because of things like AI, electric vehicles building
out the electric grid. It's going to take a lot of
copper. >> They've also discovered
a rare earth element called tellurium, labeled by the
U.S. as critical to the creation of solar panels.
>> In the drill program that was completed this
past summer. The assay data indicated about 340 350g of
tellurium per ton in the material.
>> The old argument for mining in Wisconsin focused
on the miner on the flag, or the need for jobs. But
the new argument is national security.
>> We're very reliant on foreign sources for many,
many critical metals. If we don't want to be dependent
on adversaries for these critical metals, we're
going to have to do it here domestically.
national security argument simply because bend isn't
big enough to factor in. >> In terms of the amount
of minerals that ore metals that a bend deposit can
produce, it's not going to dent or make any real
difference in terms of national security for the
United States. >> Blouin understands any
mining permit is years away, but even the exploratory
drilling comes with concerns.
>> It's concerning to us because you know that
potential, and they've described it as a potential
mining district across northern Wisconsin is
deeply concerning. Every potential proposal results
in risk to the environment, to air, to water, to
habitat in multiple locations forever.
>> Donohue reiterates there's a lot more drilling
and a lot of studies to go, but at some point in the
future, the economics will make the bend deposit
viable. >> If you look at these
types of belts across the world, this is one of the
larger undeveloped belts of its type in the world. So
from that perspective, I think very confident that
there will be mining again in Wisconsin.
>> Reporting from Taylor County. I'm Zac Schultz for
here. And now. >> For more on this and
other issues facing Wisconsin, visit our
website at PBS Wisconsin. Org and then click on the
news tab. That's our program for tonight I'm
Frederica Freyberg. Have a good weekend.
>> Funding for "Here& Now" is provided by the Focus
Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.