PBS Wisconsin original production.
>> Federal workers, foodshare and health care
are caught in a crossfire of the shutdown showdown.
[MUSIC] Schultz filling in for
Frederica Freyberg tonight on "Here& Now". Congressman
Glenn Grothman and Mark Pocan weigh in as the
government shutdown becomes the second longest in
history. UW-Madison Chancellor Jennifer Mnookin
of speech on campus in PFAS pollution isn't going away.
Murv Seymour reports from one community demanding
answers. It's "Here& Now" for October 24th.
>> Funding for here and Now is provided by the Focus
Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.
>> We are on day 23 of the federal government shutdown.
failed 12 times to pass the House bill that would
reopen the government. Joining us now is
Republican Congressman Glenn Grothman. Congressman,
thanks for joining us. >> Glad to be on the show.
>> So the continuing resolution the House passed
would only fund the government through November
21st. And at this point, we're almost closer to that
date than the start of the shutdown. Do you think
a new CR with maybe a longer date behind it?
>> Well, I think we should. First of all, wait a little
bit and see if the Democrats will vote to keep
the government open. I mean, like you just said, the
Republicans in the Senate, my own Ron Johnson, have
voted 12 times to keep the government open. And it's
what is normally automatic. So you understand we are
waiting for a budget for the calendar year, for the
fiscal year beginning October 1st, 13 times when
Joe Biden was president, the Republicans helped him
out by keeping the government open in similar
circumstances. I bet it didn't even make the shows
right. So I think a lot of us still want to believe
that the Democrats will do what is par for the course
has been for decades, and just vote to keep the
government open. No reason not to.
>> So the hangup for Democrats in the Senate,
according to them, is this extension of Affordable
Care Act subsidies. They're holding out for that. They
expire at the end of the year. November 1st is when
those subsidies, when the marketplace opens, and
people may see what premiums may look like.
Without those subsidies. Would you vote to extend
the subsidies if that was the deciding factor in a
deal? >> You got to remember,
it's always good to say we're going to vote for
more spending of every type. But right now we're
borrowing 26% of our budget. That's why we've got to get
the continuing resolution passed, because there may
wind up being a little more for subsidies in there, but
it depends upon what's going on in the other items.
We've got about $1.8 trillion in discretionary
spending that we're voting to extend, of which the
Obamacare subsidies are part of. That is because
the Obamacare is flawed. It would be nice to change.
Obamacare works, so we don't have to keep dipping
further and further into subsidies. But again, we've
got to ask the Democrats 26% of our budget is
borrowed. What do you plan on cutting instead? If you
do want to put $34 billion a year, which is about what
they're looking at into Obamacare subsidies.
>> So one of the things that people in the public
that are receiving these subsidies aren't as nuanced
in the federal government spending as obviously you
are. But when they hear headlines like $20 billion
for Argentina to bail out their economy, but we can't
afford subsidies for Americans. How do you
explain that discrepancy >> Well, I think President
Trump is in a situation in which he doesn't want
Argentina to become a new Venezuela, which would be
even more wildly expensive to deal with. I think they
just have to realize the Obamacare was poorly drawn
up. We are prepared to keep the government open. And
then as far as subsidies are concerned, you know,
they've got to ask us where other parts of the budget
are that they don't want to spend as much on. Again,
the Americans have to get used to the fact that right
now we're borrowing 26% of our budget. You're talking
about Obamacare subsidies. I'll tell you when I'm in
my office, again and again and again, I meet Americans
who want the government to spend more money. Can we
spend more here? Can we spend more there? And, you
know, I can think of things that can be done to get to
$34 billion, but the Democrats haven't put those
things on the table. And in part, they haven't put them
on the table because we're not negotiating. We're not
should keep the government open first. It's just not
that difficult of a demand. It's something that's done
automatically. And if you look at the statements in
the, the, the journals that are put out in Washington,
D.C. the Democrats admit that the reason they are
not opening the government is they want to use
leverage, not just on Obamacare, but on on things
like Moore DEI programs, for example, which I think
are just the most vicious things and wouldn't be
wouldn't be good to spend us the money for free.
>> So the consumer price index was released today
and showed inflation was up 3% in September. And they
say largely due to tariffs. Do you continue to support
Donald Trump's tariff policy?
>> I'm not as big a fan as tariffs as some other
people, but you know, President Trump is our
president. He's a big fan of tariffs, as is his
treasury secretary. Mike Johnson has canceled
floor sessions over the past couple of weeks.
Democrats say it's because he doesn't want to swear in
a newly elected Democrat from Arizona, who
potentially could be the final vote to discharge
Epstein files. Do you believe that? Or do you
think there's another reason the floor the house
hasn't come back to the floor?
>> I think the reason he doesn't want Republicans
back in Washington is I think he wants to control
the narrative as far as what's going on during the
shutdown. And I think he's afraid if you had 200 more
Republicans running around Washington, the reporters
would find somebody to say something that maybe
Speaker Johnson wouldn't like. I was back in
Washington this week. I plan on returning to
Washington next Monday, and me there, they can
interview me there. I don't I don't have a problem
going back to Washington. >> And today, the Trump
administration announced application for federal
disaster relief for six counties damaged by
flooding in August. Some of those in your your district.
What is your reaction to that?
>> I was very disappointed. Obviously, we're very broke.
That may be one of the things that's entering into
the decision. It's we just got out today and I'll be
in contact with the Trump administration and see the
reason for those decisions. >> All right, Congressman
Grothman, thanks for your time today.
>> Thank you very much. >> For the opposing
viewpoint. We are now joined by Democratic
Congressman Mark Pocan. Thanks for being here.
>> Yeah, thanks for having me.
encourage Senate Democrats this continuing resolution?
>> I think we need to make sure that people understand
what's at stake, and I think people will by
November 1st, you have to will have the rate
increases for the Affordable Care Act for
almost everyone's group plans. And I think that
will show what we've been talking about all along,
which is 15 million people are going to ultimately
lose their health insurance because of the big ugly law.
And right now, I had an employer told me just a
couple of weeks ago that their new increase for next
year insurance is 41%, and that's because of the
uncompensated care created by the Affordable Care Act.
So I think they just need to make sure that
Republicans I know are getting the calls like we
are when it comes to this, and it's going to only
intensify by November 1st rates. So, you know, I
would just say, hold tight, federal workers who are
really being heroes in all this right now, going
without paychecks, is about. But we've got to
make sure that people don't lose one of the most
important economic, you know, legs to a stool that
they have. >> So the Trump
administration doesn't seem to mind the shutdown.
They're trying to lay off thousands of federal
employees. Trump's building his white House ballroom
right now, not worried about any fiscal situation.
What is their incentive to negotiate even after
November 1st? think we're going to be
about two and a half weeks out from the original seven
weeks they had. Anyway, we've kind of got to get
together and do something because the time will have
run out for even their original kind of arbitrary
deadline they did without negotiating to begin with,
with us. So I think that's what's going to happen. But,
you know, as you pointed out, I mean, Donald Trump,
you know, he's using this as an excuse to fire people,
but he's already fired 200,000 people either
firings since he's been president, which he doesn't
have the authority. There's been all kinds of lawsuits,
but this has already been happening. That's part of
the problem. If you can't actually have an agreement
like we used to in Congress, and that somehow the
executive branch is going to steal the funds that
we've agreed to in a bipartisan way, then you
don't really have an unfortunately the place
you know, this is really right now about protecting
people's health care. And by the way, all of us are
going to pay more for health care because of that
law, because of that uncompensated care. And it
will help everyone in having this fight.
>> So how long can the government function in
shutdown mode? At what point do things just they
don't they can't function at all. And they shut down.
>> Yeah. Places like Wisconsin. You feel it less,
right? I think I was doing a town hall in Derrick Van
Orden district last week and I asked about 50 people.
I said, who's feeling the impact directly? And one
person raised their hand out of 50 people. But
that's because we're in Wisconsin. But, you know,
if you're trying to get Ahold of Social Security,
you want to go to a national park. But now if
you're eligible for Snap benefits, right, you're
going to start feeling it. So you're going to see more
of those things now happen. I just think by the time
next week I'm going to go back to Washington, even if
the House Republicans aren't, I'm going to show
up because that's my job to be there. But at the same
time, we're going to be at two and a half weeks out
from their artificial deadline anyway, right? So
at some point we have to quit holding our breath. If
you're the House Republicans, show up in
Washington and let's this, let's negotiate the
farm bill that's two years overdue. Let's do the Older
Americans Act overdue. But let's do
something. Just simply taking another week of paid
vacation doesn't solve anything.
House Republicans and Speaker Mike Johnson
newly elected Democrat from Arizona. Do you think that
is related to this discharge petition over the
Epstein files, or is it simply they're just not in
session? There's no need to come back because there's
the government shutdown. things. I think they think
this is leverage to try to bring us back, to reopen
the government without fixing health care. I think
some of it is about is the 218th signature in Donald
Trump, for, for whatever reason, now doesn't want
the release of the Epstein files after campaigning on
releasing them, but I don't. I've learned I can't
predict Republicans anymore. Right? I mean, it's been so,
you know, the fact that you just don't even try to come
to Washington to do your job to negotiate, whether
it be the shutdown, health care, farm bill, anything,
you just think you don't have to show up. That's a
weird dynamic that, you know, I've been doing this
for a long time in local, state and federal
don't know if I understand their messaging. I'm not
sure they do because they keep changing your
messaging. We're very clear. We're fighting for the
affordability of health care so that people don't
lose their health insurance, and we all don't pay more
for it. And I think that's a fight people understand.
>> So the midterms are still a year away.
Historically, there's little evidence that
government shutdowns this far out from an election
impact the election. Do you think this time could be
different? >> I really don't know
where this is going to end. Right. Are they going to
continue it? And because again, Donald Trump kind of
likes parts of this, as you said. I mean, he's already
been acting unilaterally. And unfortunately, the
Republican majorities in the House and the Senate
have allowed him to do that. Article one of the
Constitution gives us the power of the purse, but
he's stealing funds that we've approved. The
Constitution gives the Congress only emergency
but he's getting away with it. So this is anything but
normal times, I think. You know, when you watch the
East wing of the Capitol being demolished right now,
see what he's doing to democracy. Right. He's
literally demolishing the institutions that we
understand fundamentally. many people last weekend at
the no rally, 7 million people speaking out. I just
think these are times that are hard for anyone to give
you honest predictions. >> So finally, the consumer
price index came out today. It's at 3%. It's an
increase year over year. It's tariffs right.
>> Trump's tariff taxes are absolutely affecting us.
We're all paying for that messiness. And it just
needs to stop. >> All right. Congressman
Pocan thanks for your time. >> Sure. Thank you.
>> UW-Madison has announced a new program designed to
foster and strengthen civil dialog across the
university. It's called the Wisconsin Exchange
joining us now to talk about the program is
Chancellor Jennifer Mnookin. Thanks for your time today.
>> Thanks for having me. >> So so what is the
Wisconsin Exchange? is a collection of programs
and opportunities for students, as well as
faculty and staff, to gain experience in engaging with
each other across their differences, whether those
differences come as differences in background
or identity or viewpoint and perspective. We already
had a number of things happening on campus around
this, but we wanted to to grow those further because
I think it's a significant priority for our campus and
frankly, for our nation. >> So Republicans have
criticized UW-Madison for liberal professors. Making
young conservatives feel uncomfortable on campus. Is
this a response to those types of complaints?
>> This is actually something that I think is
deeper and far broader. I think that universities are
perfect places for people to learn from, and to learn
to talk to people who experience the world
differently from the way that they do. That goes all
the way back to sifting and winnowing a core idea at
UW-Madison. And I think we do a fair amount of that
already. And I also think there are opportunities to
be more intentional about it, and also to give people
practice and skills. Many people these days live in
relatively siloed environments in terms of
viewpoint and perspective, and we want people to get
out of their silos and have the experience of learning
from and talking to each other.
materials. It doesn't look requirement, not like a
freshman class. So how do you get the people that may
need this the most to actually buy into it?
>> That's a fair question, and I think we're frankly
starting out with a coalition of the willing.
We're starting out with people who are interested
in doing this. It won't reach everybody on our very
large, pluralistic campus from the get go. We already
have programs like the deliberation dinners, where
375 of our undergraduates are raising their hands to
come together for six dinners across the year in
groups of ten that are selected for viewpoint
diversity, to gain skill and practice. In talking
about pretty contentious issues and learning that
you can learn from people who see the world very
differently from themselves, that's grown over the past
couple of years each year. And in fact, we had more
people who wanted to participate this year than
we could than we could include. And these
additional programs will at first be for those who are
interested, I hope down the road that we might be able
to grow some trainings in other spaces around the
university and reach even more students, as well as
faculty and staff. >> So in recent years,
we've seen student protesters take over
over Gaza. We've seen conservative groups book
speakers accused of hate speech. How would this
program deal with those types of environments?
>> Well, I mean, in some ways, protest is part of
free speech. It's absolutely permitted under
the First Amendment that you can also have time,
space, time, place and manner rules that limit it.
Similarly, we've had many speakers from across the
political spectrum, including very conservative
speakers, as well as very left leaning ones who've
come to campus and shared their views with people who
are interested in hearing from them without incident.
I think that is absolutely part of what needs to
happen on a university campus. We also need more
opportunities for people who disagree with each
other to show that they can do that diplomatically,
respectfully, not necessarily succeeding in
changing each other's mind. But but when you hear from
someone with a different point of view, sometimes it
does change your mind. Other times it sharpens and
focuses your own arguments. I hear that just before me
on this show, you had two congressmen from opposite
sides of the aisle talking to each other. That's a
perfect example. >> So in August, the
university lost a free speech case in a federal
court filed by a woman who said the UW was blocking
her speech on social media channels. How does
moderation of speech on social media work with
civil discourse in the public space? Because often
that speech is overlapping. >> Yeah. I mean, I think
that we need to have robust dialog in all the different
spaces that are available. I don't, frankly, find that
social media is the most useful or valuable space
for having civic engagement across our differences. I
think that often on social media, people are more
interested in in, in supporting their existing
point of view, rather than bringing curiosity and
compassion to their engagement with one another.
So I don't see this initiative as terribly
connected to the social media space of it all. It's
much more about in real life and perhaps virtually
giving people opportunities to be part of conversations.
>> All right, Chancellor Mnookin, thanks for your
time today. >> Thank you so much for
having me. [MUSIC]
>> We wanted to ask the Chancellor about the state
of the UW athletic department and head
football coach, Luke Fickell. Chancellor Mnookin
wanted to keep the focus on this new initiative, but
promised to return to our set and talk about
athletics at a future date. In dental news, at more
than 100 sites across the state, from Mount Pleasant
to Superior, people are dealing with water
contaminated with the man made chemicals known as
PFAS. Here and now. Reporter Murv Seymour went
to the Northwoods community of Stella, which is
currently under review for a Superfund designation
where residents put health and environmental officials
on the hot seat. >> Stella is a farming
community. town of Stella.
some individuals out here. >> It's lakes, it's
wildlife, the people. >> Everybody is a neighbor
and everybody knows everybody.
reasons people move here. >> It's a very caring
community. locals never leave.
>> When somebody needs something out here,
everybody shows up. Obviously, it's a good
turnout. have shown up at Stella
Hall filling the parking lot and roadsides.
>> We're all here for the same reason.
>> Inside, they fill nearly every seat as they stand
together listening. Because tonight they need answers
from town, state and federal officials about
their precious lakes and wildlife that are
contaminated with man made chemicals known as PFAS.
They're here to work with us. They're here to answer
our questions. Casey Crump lives in this
community. >> I love the community. I
love the people. >> He has for almost 25
years. >> These are neighbors,
their friends. this information session
together to provide his community and himself with
the first update in almost two years on fact.
>> We're learning more and more.
how contaminated are the water and ground, whose
what's the impact on people, wildlife, crops and
property values. Casey's quest for answers is
personal. but now it's even more
personal. >> Like everyone else here.
>> We have permanent residents that live around
it, and we have vacationers that come up during the
summer. of questions.
>> What does PFAS do to us when we have it in our body?
And then also, how can we find out if we do have it
in our body? If my well's been tested positive and
I've been drinking this well for 30 years, you know,
do I have it in my body? How can we find out about
that? three times the recommended
levels. The town is in the early assessment phase of
being designated a federal Superfund site. Superfund
status would mean federal funds and an expedited
cleanup process. Behind Town Hall sits one of many
EPA and DNR groundwater testing sites. Water
samples taken from various wells like this are part of
the lengthy assessment process, which could take
decades. For now, the DNR tells people within five
miles of Stella to limit their consumption of deer
meat to one meal per month, and they've been told not
to eat deer liver at all. And they shouldn't eat any
fish from almost a dozen different lakes in the area,
which includes fish and all of the lakes that make up
the heavily populated and popular Moen Lake Chain.
Nearby. Snowden Lake is on the list, too. At the edge
of the highway, 50 yards from shore, you'll find a
wooden gate that leads down towards the lake with a
sign that warns people about the contaminated lake
water and the risks of being exposed to it from
swimming, fishing, or ingesting it.
levels stay the same or are they getting worse or
getting better? panel takes questions from
people who have written them on index cards.
>> The rumor is that there were some illegal dumping
that caused this. Is that true or not true?
>> From the third row, retired nurse Jean Peterson,
who lives on the first lake portion of the Moen Lake
Chain, pushes for the answers she needs.
>> I just believe knowledge is power.
>> The DNR confirms that former owners of the paper
mill, now called Ahlstrom and Wausau Paper, are the
primary PFAS polluters in the area. They've notified
both companies and their previous owners, requiring
them to fund and clean up the contamination. In an
email statement in Ahlstrom, spokesperson tells me
they've received the notification and they're
carefully reviewing it. With the recent site
inspection report. The statement goes on to say,
we continue to actively engage as a partner with
the DNR, EPA and other agencies. Less than a mile
from Jean Peterson's home on the shores of Third Lake
and the other lakes, all is pretty quiet on shore and
on the water. Aside from a few boaters fishing and
cruising the lake. One day after that community
meeting, I meet Jean Peterson at the Oneida
County Courthouse in Rhinelander.
a matter of time before it was us.
>> She candidly tells me she worries about how PFAS
contamination will impact her health, and when the
time comes, the potential resale value of her home.
>> We had our well tested about 12 months ago, had
never heard of PFAS at that time, but we had our well
tested just in general and it came back fine. And we
drink bottled water. >> According to the DNR,
lengthy exposure to certain types of PFAS can lead to
an increased risk of cancer, developmental delays,
thyroid and heart issues, infertility and low birth
weights in infants. Residents are encouraged to
use bottled water or treat water that they consume.
>> First visit DNR, gov and search PFAS.
>> The DNR has created an interactive website where
people can search and learn if they're in one of the
PFAS contaminated zones in Wisconsin.
>> And around the map. To learn about PFAS in your
area or search an address in the box above.
>> You can zero in on your own address or neighborhood
to get details on testing and its results. Jean
Peterson and others learned there are thousands of
types of man made PFAS in things like nonstick
cookware, plastic wrappings, microwave popcorn bags,
waterproof clothing and foam commonly used in
airport fire trucks. >> I have a spring on my
land. What do I need to do to get it tested.
>> At that community town hall? At times, each answer
leads to more questions. on my fields for years and
years and years. I lived on that field. I grow
vegetables in my garden, which turned out really
good this year. But now I have concerns about
consuming those vegetables because we water with our
well water. We, you know, we we planted them in the
soil that that our property sits on. And in addition to
that, I least out my land. And so corn is grown on
that land. I think that corn goes to feed cattle
and livestock. Are the cattle in livestock now
consuming that corn? >> What is the plan for
when the $125 million that has been sitting there year
one, year two unspent. >> In Madison, state
lawmakers have set aside $125 million to help pay
for cleaning up PFAS contaminated sites across
the state, a drop in the bucket of what will be
needed. perfect wording for that,
so it includes all the landowners that actually
are innocent. >> For now, the funds are
on hold as lawmakers hash out language in the bill
that protects the environment and protects
farmers, families and business owners from
liability and the anticipated astronomical
costs of cleanup. >> Wisconsin has done an
excellent job under the spills law for decades, and
but it does need funding. >> Community groups
representing municipalities and environmental groups
from all over the state came here to weigh in on
the conversation. >> You don't have to treat
the water, to do your laundry, to do your dishes,
to flush your toilet. But you should be treating the
water that you're using for food preparation and for
drinking water. situation, the state is
footing the bill to test and redrill some private
wells. People are already drinking bottled water and
some are paying for the testing of their own wells,
something Casey Crump believes his small
community might have to do if they want the water
quality here to get better before it gets worse.
>> We're willing to step up and we're willing to do
what we need to do, but we still want answers.
>> Reporting from Stella for here. Now I'm Murv
Seymour. >> For more on this and
other issues facing Wisconsin, visit our
website at PBS Wisconsin and click on the news tab.
That is our program for tonight. Frederica will be
back next week. I'm Zac Schultz have a great
weekend. >> Funding for "Here& Now"
is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and
Friends of PBS Wisconsin.