>> The following program is a PBS Wisconsin original
production.
>> Extraordinary events of a Wisconsin Judge's arrest and
suspension. After allegedly attempting to help a man escape
ice ups. The ante in the national immigration debate.
[MUSIC] Good evening. I'm Zach Schultz,
filling in for Frederica Freyberg tonight on "Here& Now"
we continue our congressional updates this week with
representative Mark Pocan. And on the arrest of a sitting
judge, the law and the politics can't be untangled, says
Professor Howard Schweber. Then how education and resources
aimed to decrease gun violence in Milwaukee.
[MUSIC] It's "Here& Now" for May 2nd.
>> Funding for "Here& Now" is provided by the Focus Fund for
April 25th. Journalism and Friends of PBS
Wisconsin. >> If there's one constant with
Donald Trump as president, it's that he creates a firehose of
news. And just as it appears, one topic will dominate the
national conversation, another issue pops up. Joining us now to
talk about the Democratic response to the first 100 days
of Trump's second term in office, is Congressman Mark
Pocan. Thanks for your time today.
>> Yeah. Thanks, Zach. I appreciate having me.
>> So from DOGE to immigration Frederica.
to tariffs, have Democrats really found an issue to focus
on when it comes to responding to Trump?
>> Well, I mean, I think we all should be focused on the
economy, right? That was the number one issue for Donald
Trump when he got elected. Half the people in exit polls said
they voted on the economy. And it's also the number one issue
hurting Donald Trump right now, whether it be the indiscriminate
use of tariffs that's, you know, blowing the stock market up and
causing prices to continue to rise. His inability to lower
costs, he promised to do it day one. It's been just the opposite
in most areas. And you know, the rule of law and the chaos and
the flooding, the zone of so much is really hard. And it's
kind of exhausting for people who are calling into the office
trying to keep up with what's going on.
>> Well, so many of Trump's actions have come through
executive orders, and many of those are now being fought over
in court. And even on the topic of tariffs, some of them are
announced and then rolled back. So do you think the general
public actually understands what's happened versus what is
just being talked about? >> You know, one of the things
Donald Trump does well for himself, and that's usually how
he does things for himself, is he floods the zone with a lot of
different messages on any given issue. So you may hear what you
want to hear, but, you know, just take tariffs. You know, I
would defy anyone to tell me exactly where we're at on
tariffs right now, because I don't know if I could tell you
they're on, they're off. Some are on, some are off, a bunch
are on. Penguins are paying tariffs. And I'm not sure where
we're at today. Right. I think tomatoes just got tariffs in
Mexico. So you really can't keep up with it. But the problem is
we're hearing from a lot of business people their costs are
going up because of tariffs and things that aren't even tariffs
are going up because this is a backdoor way for people to raise
other costs. So at the end of the day, people are going to
start paying more and more for things as Donald Trump throws
these tariffs out without a real plan. And, you know, targeted
tariffs can be done. Well, if China is dumping cheap steel in
the United States, we should absolutely respond with targeted
tariffs. It's a very effective tool. But if you use a
screwdriver to pound a nail in, it's not as effective. You can't
use the same tool for everything. And that's what
Donald Trump is doing. And at the end of the day, it's just
costing people in Wisconsin and across the country more money
out of their pockets, which is the opposite of what he
promised. >> Yeah, we had your colleague,
Republican Congressman Tom Tiffany, on last. Week, and he
said tariffs are a negotiation tactic that will ultimately lead
to lower tariffs globally. He said, quote, you would hope over
the next couple of months that with these active negotiations
going on, that we're going to see some good things happen.
What would you make of his assessment?
>> You know, I think he's going to Minnesota and getting some
medical marijuana or something because I'm not sure that is an
answer that anyone else honestly believes, including other
Republican members of Congress I talked to. They're concerned
about tariffs. I just had a company from in our area. I'm
not going to say the name of the company, but they sell a lot to
China because it's a higher medical device. Let's just say.
And because of that, the tariffs right now, their leading market,
they're going to have a much harder time of selling to that
market. And most of their stuff. 70% here is sourced in the
United States, 48% just in Wisconsin. So if you start
stopping those sales because of the tariffs and the
indiscriminate use, the way the president's doing, they're
feeling a real impact. And I hear that from manufacturer
after manufacturer in the area. So it's not just that consumers
are paying more, it's that companies are going to start
feeling this. And we've even heard of some building projects
starting to be canceled because of increased costs on tariff
goods, like some of the lumber that has been coming from both
Canada and Mexico. And aluminum costs. So right now there is not
a plan, right? I think when Donald Trump answered the
question in the debate about health care, they said, you have
a plan. He said he had a concept of a plan. Everything seems to
be a concept of a plan, not a plan. At some point, we really
need plans. >> Eight years ago, it was Paul
Ryan leading the House. During Trump's first two years, and
Republicans were largely focused on passing tax cuts and really
seemed to ignore most of Trump's other agenda. A lot of those
Republicans have been replaced in Congress with Trump
loyalists. So what from your perspective, what is the
difference between then and now when it comes to the Republican
majority in Congress? >> Well, let me clarify one
thing. The holy grail for the Republicans is still this tax
cut for the wealthiest. That's what they're trying to get done
by Memorial Day. I don't think they'll get it done by then. But
the trillion and a half dollars they're trying to steal from the
middle class and those who aspire to be in the middle class
through things like health care and long term care through
Medicaid, food assistance for kids, the number one program
that keeps kids out of poverty, a 45% cut to federal funding for
education. All of that is to pay off this tax cut that originally
was estimated at four and a half trillion dollars to extend it.
Now, the Joint Committee on Taxation said, no, it's $5.5
trillion. And that's all money literally stolen from working
class people to go to Elon Musk and Donald Trump and people who
can afford to go to Mar a Lago. So even though the faces may
have changed, the Holy Grail has not. But when you flood the zone
and make people think that, you know, we're going to talk about
Greenland or Canada becoming the 51st state, things that are
never going to happen, then you're not talking about the
money that's being stolen out of your wallets. In order to give
Elon Musk a tax cut. And that's why I think it's really
important that we remember there is no difference in their
agenda. It is always about their donors. And the wealthiest in
this country. Even more so now that you've got Donald Trump in
office and Elon Musk and unelected billionaire turning on
and off federal funds, turning off funds for programs that
middle class people rely on. So I really just want to keep the
focus on that. >> You've been part of a trend
of Democratic members of Congress holding town halls in
Republican districts. And part of this is to call out
Republicans for not holding their own public forums. But
what are you hearing from people? Are they just local
Democrats coming to talk to a Democrat, or are they other
constituents? >> Yeah, this is the ultimate
common sense test, right? It doesn't pass the smell test. If
you say you're doing something good for the American people,
but instead of doing town halls to share that information, you'd
want to go on the rooftop, right, with a megaphone and
scream it. If you're doing something good, you're hiding in
your basement and not doing town halls. And Republican leadership
has told Republican members not to do town halls. Well, I smell
that. And that smells pretty bad. What they're doing, again,
is stealing money from us to do this tax cut. So I'm going to
make sure that people in Wisconsin aren't getting ripped
off. So I've done several town halls in Derrick Van Orden
district. He's never done a public town hall in two and a
half years. So, you know, people want to be heard. I did one last
week in La Crosse, and 350 plus people showed up. They want to
talk about those cuts to Medicaid and long term care.
Don't forget that's 1.3 million people in Wisconsin. 55% of
seniors in nursing homes get help from Medicaid. One out of
three kids in Wisconsin gets their health insurance from
Medicaid. So, you know, that's why they're hiding in their
basements, because they don't want to talk about what they're
actually doing. And just the opposite needs to happen. People
need to be heard. That's why the turnout was so big in that April
election. People just want to be heard. And that's why we're
doing the town halls to make sure people can be heard.
>> All right. Congressman Mark Pocan, thanks for your time
today. >> Yeah. Thank you.
>> The Wisconsin Supreme Court this week announced they were
temporarily suspending Milwaukee County Judge Hanna Dugan, quote,
in order to uphold the public's confidence in the courts of this
state, Dugan was arrested and charged in federal court with
obstructing federal immigration officials in their efforts to
arrest an illegal immigrant. Following an appearance in her
courtroom. Reactions to these events have remained political.
Democratic U.S. Senator Tammy Baldwin said, quote, the
president's administration arresting a sitting judge is a
gravely serious and drastic move. While details of this
exact case remain minimal, this action fits into the deeply
concerning patterns of this president's lawless behavior and
undermining courts and Congress's checks on his power.
While Republican Assembly Speaker Robin Vos said, quote,
these are serious charges, and it's important to remember no
one is above the law. We are reviewing the situation, and the
charges result in a conviction. We will act. Judge Dugan's
decision to hide a dangerous illegal immigrant was
irresponsible and put public safety at risk. Joining us now
is UW-Madison professor emeritus Howard Schweber. Thanks for your
time. >> Well, thanks for having me.
>> So what is your opinion of the case put forward by the
federal government? Did they have grounds to make an arrest
here? >> Well, we have to keep in mind
that the only facts we have to go on are those contained in the
complaint. Right. And there's a reason we don't take complaints
at face value. That's why we have trials. So based but based
only on those facts. And assuming everything that is
alleged in the complaint is true. Yeah, they've got a pretty
strong case. The Ice agents were in the public areas of the
courthouse where law enforcement is permitted by both law and
tradition, to make arrests. It appears the judge very much went
out of her way to help this guy evade arrest. It was not a
matter of simply like pointing to a door. It was. There was
much more to it than that. According to the allegations. So
if these facts bear out, and if she is convicted on the basis of
the complaint as it stands, I would say that the case against
her is pretty strong. At that point, I think there would be no
doubt that the state Supreme Court, as well as the state
legislature, would take action to remove her from the bench.
>> Now her case will play out in federal court. But what's the
impact in other courtrooms? Is there any doubt that the Trump
administration was trying to send a message to all judges
everywhere in these actions? >> No, there's no doubt about
that at all. It's worth remembering that in his first
term, Trump also had a judge in Massachusetts arrested. It's
worth also pointing out that this the decision by the state
Supreme Court to suspend Judge Dugan was 7 to 0, was unanimous.
It's temporary, and it's a suspension with pay. So we
shouldn't overstate. We are where we are at in the specifics
of the case, but the political environment is exactly what you
just raised. The Trump administration has been going
after and trying to intimidate federal judges from the
beginning with threats of impeachment and threats to shut
down courthouses. I don't think it's a coincidence that this
week, the Trump administration announced an executive order
targeting state and local officials who interfere with
deportation efforts and the manner of the arrest was really
egregious. Handcuffs and photographs and publicity. You
know, the perp walk element of the whole thing that was very
clearly an esthetic intended to send a message that's of a
threat to judges everywhere, state and local judges
everywhere, you know, don't get in our way. It won't end well
for you. >> Some law enforcement
officials, like here in Dane County, specifically avoid
asking questions around immigration status because
they've said they don't want potential witnesses or victims
to feel intimidated or have concerns about showing up at
courtrooms. What will this mean in terms of justice? In a lot of
other cases that have nothing to do with this particular issue?
>> Well, that's the policy side of this, and it's absolutely,
you know, again, you've raised exactly the right concern. It
doesn't work to simply exclude a category of people and say, if
you participate in our court system in any way, you know, you
may be subject to arrest, that's going to make them go
underground, and that's going to make it harder for the police
and for prosecutors in criminal cases and in civil cases,
though, you know, cases of, for example, example, domestic
abuse, which is one of the allegations that's involved in
this case, it just gets very >> Aaron and Tricia Leonard
much harder for the rule of law to be maintained for people to
be protected. So on policy grounds, you know, there's a
really good reason why in the past, law enforcement is very
has been very hesitant to operate inside of courtroom
courthouses and especially courtrooms. Again, we have to
come back to two key points here. One, if every single one
kids. of the facts alleged is exactly
as the federal government says it is, this is a strong case.
And this judge acted at least recklessly. And two, the
unanimous opinion by the state Supreme Court, I think, shows
that that court is very, very concerned not to see this become
a disruption to the court system as a whole, not to see these
kind of conflicts spreading across the state, but the
background politics of intimidation of state and local
officials and of judges in particular, I think, is in
everyone's mind and rightly so. >> Now, we spoke with one of the
nine chief judges in Wisconsin, and they said they're waiting
for the director of state courts or the chief of chiefs to speak
out. But we've heard nothing so far other than this one
statement by the Wisconsin Supreme Court and is the silence
pretty loud in that situation, or do they have an obligation to
speak out publicly or give guidance to judges in this
situation? >> Well, I don't know about an
obligation. So the big question is this gets rather technical.
The case involved an administrative warrant,
administrative warrants, unlike warrants signed by judges, do
not permit law enforcement to for standards like burgers and
enter into private spaces without permission. There's a
kind of background understanding that courtrooms are treated as
private spaces, but that the public areas of courthouses are
not. And that's an established Lake Superior Chippewa.
understanding. That's not brand new. I think it would be useful
for the chief judge to come up with a clear set of guidelines
for judges around the state, but certainly part of the problem is
has to be a concern of pushback from the federal government and
from federal authorities. If the feds don't like the rules that
Wisconsin comes up with. So there may be negotiations going
on behind the scenes to try and get that worked out. I do we had
everyone. we've seen one Wisconsin judge
already threatened to effectively shut down her
courtroom in the absence of guidance. You know, that's
another thing that could spread and that would be a problem. So
I expect that a statement will be forthcoming, and I expect
that it will have some detailed rules and policies. I think the
one thing that's very clear, the state Supreme Court has made
very clear is once those off.
policies are in place, they will be enforced.
>> All right, Professor Schweber, thanks for your time
today. >> Thank you.
>> City leaders in Milwaukee have new ammunition in their
efforts to lower gun violence. A Milwaukee mom who is a gun owner
is one of many people taking advantage of the free resources
from the city and a gun store. ?Here& Now? reporter Murv
Seymour shows us how education is being used as a weapon to
lower violence from guns. A word of warning this story contains
sounds of loud gunfire. >> Today, one of our officers
was shot in the line of duty. >> On the front line to protect
people from gun violence and from the scene of a recent
shooting. >> The suspect, unidentified
male, sustained fatal gunshots. >> Milwaukee's top cop and mayor
have a message for the city about its problems with gun
violence. >> Using a firearm to bring
violence into our community. Absolutely unacceptable.
>> According to ShotSpotter, the detection system Milwaukee
police uses to track when gunshots are fired in the city.
Over 11,000 rang out in Milwaukee neighborhoods in 2024.
The amount of violent and deadly shootings is slightly down, but
the numbers are too high, says Chief Norman.
>> I come from a very close knit family.
>> Meet Antonia Perry. >> My faith is very high in the
Lord. Like I hear him talk to me.
>> A single mom raising two boys. Antonia is all about
family. She lives in what she describes as a pretty nice
community, but. >> It's very triggering.
>> A closer look reveals subtle signs that living here can be
tough. >> We hear gunshots every night.
>> Some nights, ShotSpotter experts that were blind to u % ,
lights up as gunshots echo through the neighborhood.
>> They they are over there on 39th. Up. That sound like
Sherman? They might be in the alley across the street. Like we
can hear. Like where it's coming from. It puts me in a dark place
to hear all that shooting. >> A dark place. Because Antonia
knows about gun violence. She and one of her sons are
country. survivors of reckless gun
violence. >> Just from hearing the shots,
I've thought I've been shot again.
>> A longtime gun owner with a concealed carry license. Antonia
keeps her weapons safely stored and locked away from her kids.
>> He broke into my house and took the gun.
>> So she thought. >> That's when he went in the
alley, shooting it with his. With his cousin.
>> Two weeks before this interview, her then 14 year old
son leaves a shelter meant to give parents and kids a break
from each other during difficult times. He comes to this alley
behind their home and fires the gun. It's the second time in two
years he's taken her weapon >> They emptied the gun and had
about 1111 shots. Nobody was hurt. Thank God.
>> I know when you get scared, I get scared.
>> The two boys videotaped the people?
entire thing. >> On a video. You see both of
them shooting a gun. My worst fear was actually burying him.
Having to bury him. Because he could have killed himself. He
could have hurt somebody else. >> Antonia. Fears didn't end
there. >> I couldn't find my firearm. I
checked him, it wasn't on his body, but he wouldn't tell me
where it was. But then he still proceeded to go to the school
I couldn't have him go to the school until I knew I had my
firearm. They checked the premises and they didn't find
it. >> Grieving, desperate and torn
in the spirit of tough love, Antonia makes a gut wrenching
decision. >> Took him to the police
station and I showed them the video and they arrested him. I
feel horrible, like I'm the mom. This is my baby. This is my son,
and I'm turning him into the police.
>> Emotionally broken, she turns to her faith.
>> I let one of the pastors at the church know my story, and he
got me connected with a guy humanities everywhere.
named Quinn. >> Quinn Taylor works for the
City of Milwaukee's Office of Community Safety and Wellness.
He's also a member of Evolve Church.
>> An Narcan is for individuals that might be suffering from
overdose. >> From what's called the
Community resource table. Quinn explains how resources on this
table help connect the community with city resources. The city
offers gun safety help for families who live in Milwaukee
neighborhoods, coping with the most gun violence and the
furious prevention resources. >> Prolific Armstrong speaking.
Yes, absolutely. We should be able to do that for you.
>> In one of its new programs, the city partners with prolific
arms. >> We have a bunch of different
weapons. >> A gun store in nearby West
Allis that does a lot more than sell guns.
>> We're educators that just happen to sell guns.
>> Owners Theron Rodgers and Eddie Silas are unique gun store
owners. >> Out of 6000 gun stores in the
United States, there's only 15 being Black owned.
>> And in Wisconsin. >> As we know of, it's only two.
The mission is to educate as many people as possible. The
city of Milwaukee said, hey, we want to do something about gun
violence. The solution is education. And also resources.
People think these bullets just go out of space. No, they do
not. Right. They go up and come down with enough force to kill
somebody. >> According to the Milwaukee
Police Department, almost 60% of guns stolen throughout the city
are taken from one place. Your vehicle. Criminals are
constantly weaving through crowded public parking lots at
bars, restaurants, sporting events, hospitals, city
buildings, pretty much anywhere you have your vehicle and your
weapon unattended. City officials are fighting back and
they say you can too, with education and one simple tool.
>> These right here are lock boxes sponsored by the City of
Milwaukee Office of Wellness and Safety. In its partnership, the
city provides free gun storage, lock cases and prolific arms,
gives them out, and installs them for anyone who takes their
concealed carry. Firearm safety class at Evolve Church.
>> We've been able to train 150 members of the community in
firearm education since the start of the year.
>> And it sounds like you did have a safe and have it locked
away. >> We set in as the team at
Prolific Arms set aim towards helping Antonia Perry.
>> What do you think you could have done better?
>> It's a free one hour firearms safety assessment available to
any gun owner who wants it. >> This here is snap safe lock
box. You get two keys. We're going to be able to give out 750
of these. So you're going to be one of the recipients of that.
>> The House call goes over locations. They are numerous.
things like how many weapons are in the.
>> Home. >> How and where is it stored,
how many kids live in the house, and what's the plan? If you have
to reach for your weapon? >> You know, someone's in my
house. What do you do? Do you have a designated meeting place
in case of an emergency? >> If you are possessing a
firearm in your house, it shouldn't be a secret to those
season. who's living there.
>> But it's vitally important that not only us, our youth, get
access to the education piece. >> I also learned to educate the
kids and not hide it from them. Let them know that it is there
and how dangerous it is. If something was to happen. If they
ran around with a gun. >> We care about this because
this is our community. We grew up here, our family's here. The
people that we love our friends we we've taken a lot of losses.
>> Back at Evolve Church Steps from its community table inside
their teen room. >> If you're relying on a safety
for your safety, that's a bad decision. You need to be your
safety. >> Antonia Perry. Her two boys
and almost 50 inner city gun owners gather for this Saturday.
Firearm safety course. >> We teach everything from safe
handling, proper storage. >> If this weapon
unintentionally goes off, that round is going to go through the
floor. >> For a small fee in four hours
of time. Some receive their concealed carry permit. Others,
like Antonia, refreshed themselves while educating their
kids about gun safety. >> You have mothers. You have
fathers, you have even kids. You have everything that represents
a community in this training. >> Practicing proper firearm
storage. >> Practicing proper firearm
storage. >> Participants also take part
in what's called the Prolific pledge.
>> The prolific pledge is a us getting the community to commit
to the goal of safe firearm ownership and education.
>> 11 miles from her house, Antonia continues her education.
>> So go ahead and slowly squeeze the trigger.
>> With firearm safety expert Eddie Silas at her side. She
prepares to do something she's never done as a 17 year long
gun. >> Owner.
>> Fire her weapon. >> Your feet can either be a
shoulder length apart, slight bend on your knees.
>> I've never had that. That chance to do that. Because I'm
always in the house being the mother. I'm working. I'm going
to school, I'm cooking, I'm cleaning. I'm taking care of the
kids. >> Before she pulls the trigger,
Eddie provides a 20 minute hands on refresher on firing weapons.
>> So now you're going to grab the magazine, insert it finger
off the trigger. You want to choke up a little bit more if
you can. Everything looks good. I'm ready to get out on the
range. >> Working out of stall for the
sound and power of gunfire almost instantly startles
Antonia. >> Who?
>> You see her shake? A lot of infected with this pathogen,
people in our community are walking around with PTSD and
they don't know it. She almost turned around and walked out of
there. >> For me, it felt like it was
going through my body, and I don't know if it's because I've
already been shot before. >> At times with shell casings
flying everywhere. Eddie has to stop and calm Antonio's nerves.
>> I don't see, I see you shaking. Put it down. Okay. Take
a deep breath. >> Eventually, Antonia does
collect her poise. >> An intruder can be in your
house right now. Your kids can be screaming.
>> It took a minute to, like, get my stance and tune out the
shooting, but once my coach gave me some pointers, I was able to,
you know, feel more comfortable with shooting. Shooting the gun.
>> It's brave. She's absolutely brave.
>> Within a few days of partnering with the city of
Milwaukee, owners of a gun store in her church, Antonia Perry
becomes a more educated gun owner and mom.
>> We need more mothers just like her. She probably saved his
life and she doesn't even know it.
>> I believe that all of this is for a reason, and we're going to
be all right. We're going to be all right.
>> Reporting from Milwaukee. I'm Murv Seymour for here. Now.
>> For more on this and other issues facing Wisconsin, visit
our website at PBS wisconsin.org and then click on the news tab.
That is our program for tonight. I'm Zach Schultz. Have a great
weekend. [MUSIC]
>> Funding for here and Now is provided by the Focus Fund for
Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.