"HERE & NOW," I'M MARISA WOJCIK.
>> NO PUN INTENDED, BUT WHAT
WERE DRIVING FORCES BEHIND THE
AUW STRIKE AND OTHER ACTIONS
ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND HERE IN
WISCONSIN?
TO TAKE THE TEMPERATURE ON
ORGANIZED LABOR AND
UNIONIZATION, WHERE IT'S BEEN
AND WHERE IT'S GOING, WE TURN TO
RETIRED PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS
AT MILWAUKEE AREA TECHNICAL
COLLEGE, MICHAEL ROSEN.
THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
>> I'M DELIGHTED TO BE HERE.
>> SO OF PARTICULAR INTEREST
ABOUT YOU, WOW WORKED AT THE
CHRYSLER -- YOU WORKED AT THE
CHRYSLER PLANT IN KENOSHA BEFORE
IT CLOSED.
HOW WAS THE AUTO WORKER'S UNION
DIFFERENT THEN?
>> WELL, IT WAS -- HOW WAS IT
DIFFERENT THEN?
IT WAS A PRETTY STRONG UNION IN
KENOSHA AT THAT TIME.
IT WAS LED BY RUDI KOZAL, WHO
HAS SINCE PASSED AWAY, BUT IT
WAS A VERY STRONG UNION.
IN FACT, IN THE LATE '80s,
WHEN CHRYSLER WAS -- WHEN THEY
WERE THREATENING TO CLOSE THAT
ENTIRE PLANT, KOZAL LED THE
UNION IN A FIGHT THAT ACTUALLY
BROUGHT AN ENGINE PLANT TO
KENOSHA AND KEPT MANY PEOPLE'S
JOBS, SO IT WAS ALWAYS A STRONG
FIGHTING UNION, THE U.A.W.
>> SO IN THIS STRIKE, AS YOU
KNOW, THE U.A.W. WANTS RAISES IN
PARODY WITH C.E.O. COMPENSATION
INCREASES, AND THE MEDIAN PAY
FOR THESE AUTO WORKERS, I'VE
READ, IS IN THE 80,000-DOLLAR
RANGE, INCLUDING BENEFITS, BUT
THE GM C.E.O.s COMPENSATION
PACKAGE IS SOMETHING LIKE $29
MILLION.
HOW DOES THIS GAP SQUARE TO THE
HEYDAY OF AUTO UNIONS IN, SAY,
THE '60s AND '70s?
>> WELL, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT --
THIS IS -- WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT
IN GENERAL THE RELATIONSHIP
BETWEEN WORKERS AND C.E.O.s,
IN 1965, C.E.O.s MADE 15 TIMES
AS MUCH AS THEIR WORKERS.
TODAY, IT'S OVER 350 TIMES.
THE AUTO COMPANIES HAVE MADE A
QUARTER OF A TRILLION DOLLARS
OVER THE LAST DECADE AND YET THE
AUTO WORKERS HAVE SEEN A DECLINE
IN THEIR WAGES, IN REAL WAGES,
SPENDING POWER, OF 20%.
20%.
MEANWHILE, THE C.E.O.s ARE
BEING PAID $20 MILLION A YEAR,
GETTING $20 MILLION A YEAR
RAISES, AND THIS IS REALLY THE
HEART OF THE MATTER, THE PEOPLE
WHO ARE CREATING THE WEALTH FOR
THESE AUTO COMPANIES HAVE NOT
BEEN ADEQUATELY COMPENSATED.
YOU MAY KNOW THIS, BUT THEY GAVE
UP -- THEY GAVE UP COST OF
BENEFIT INCREASES IN THE GREAT
RECESSION.
THEY HAVE NOT GOTTEN THOSE BACK.
AND THAT'S ONE OF THE ISSUES
DRIVING THE STRIKE.
ANOTHER ISSUE THAT'S DRIVING
THAT STRIKE IS THAT THEY HAVE A
TWO-TIER SYSTEM.
MANY OF THE WORKERS ARE PAID
SIGNIFICANTLY LESS THAN THE MORE
SENIOR WORKERS, AND THAT'S
NOT -- AND ACCORDING TO THE
WORKERS THEMSELVES, THAT'S
SIMPLY NOT FAIR.
>> SO YOU HAVE SAID, AND YOU'RE
JUST SAYING NOW, THAT COMPANIES
CONSISTENTLY DEMANDED
CONCESSIONS FROM THE FRONTLINE
WORKERS WHO WERE CREATING THIS
WEALTH, BUT IS THE TIDE TURNING
FOR UNION LABOR ON TAKING THOSE
KINDS OF CONCESSIONS?
>> I THINK IT IS.
I THINK THAT THERE'S SEVERAL
REASONS FOR THAT, BUT ONE OF THE
MOST IMPORTANT IS THAT WE HAVE A
VERY STRONG ECONOMY RIGHT NOW
AND WHEN WE HAVE A TIGHT
ECONOMY, THAT IS WHEN
UNEMPLOYMENT IS VERY LOW,
WORKERS ARE LESS FEARFUL ABOUT
LOSING THEIR JOBS, AND THAT'S
NOT THE CASE JUST RECENTLY.
THAT'S BEEN THE CASE
HISTORICALLY, ALL THE WAY BACK
TO THE 1800s.
IN THE 1830s, IN THE EARLY
1830s, YOU SAW ORGANIZING OF
WORKERS IN THE LOCAL MILLS,
MAINLY WOMEN WORKERS, YOUNG
WOMEN WHO COME OFF THE FARMS TO
WORK IN THESE MILLS, WHEN THE
ECONOMY WAS STRONG, AND THEY
BUILT UNIONS AND THEN, OF
COURSE, WHEN THE ECONOMY GOT
WEAKER, THEY WERE LAID OFF AND
UNIONS DECLINED, AND THAT'S BEEN
A HISTORIC PATTERN.
>> THIS QUESTION, WHAT ABOUT THE
ARGUMENT THAT GIVING WORKERS THE
KINDS OF PAY RAISES THAT THEY'RE
TALKING ABOUT, 36%, WILL COST
CONSUMERS MORE BECAUSE
PRODUCTION COSTS WILL GO UP?
>> WELL, IT'S POSSIBLE THAT IT
WILL COST CONSUMERS MORE.
BUT IN THE 1960s, AND '70s,
UP UNTIL 1979, WAGES ROSE IN
TANDEM WITH PRODUCTIVITY.
AS PRODUCTIVITY WENT UP, THE
GAINS IN PRODUCTIVITY, THAT'S
THE OUTPUT THAT THE WORKERS ARE
PRODUCING, WAS SHARED WITH THE
WORKERS.
IT WENT IN TANDEM.
SINCE THAT TIME, SINCE THAT
TIME, THERE'S BEEN A HUGE
DECLINE, INCREASES IN
PRODUCTIVITY OF 65%, BUT WAGES
FOR WORKERS HAVE ONLY GONE UP
17%.
SO WE KNOW FROM HISTORY, WE KNOW
FROM OUR OWN HISTORY IN THE
1950s, '60s AND EVEN '70s,
THAT YOU COULD COMPENSATE
WORKERS ADEQUATELY BECAUSE THEIR
PRODUCTIVITY WAS INCREASING, AND
THAT WAS BROKEN BEGINNING IN
ABOUT 1979 AND '8, AND EVER
SINCE THEN, WE'VE SEEN A HUGE
RISE IN INEQUALITY.
SO I THINK THE EXPERIENCE
INDICATES THAT YOU CAN PAY --
ADEQUATELY PAY PEOPLE.
NOW, AR WILL THAT MEAN THAT OTHR
C.E.O.s WILL BE LESS
COMPENSATED?
POSSIBLY.
WILL IT MEAN THAT THERE'S SOME
INCREASE IN PRICES?
IT COULD MEAN.
BUT REMEMBER, IN THE AUTO
INDUSTRY, THE COST OF LABOR IS A
VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF THE
COST OF PRODUCTION.
LESS THAN 6%.
>> WE NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE.
THERE'S A LOT MORE TO TALK ABOUT
AND WE WILL CALL ON YOU AGAIN.
MICHAEL ROSEN, THANK YOU VERY
MUCH.
>> WELL, THANK YOU FOR HAVING
ME.
I ENJOYED IT AND I HOPE WE TALK