ATTORNEY RESPONDED TO OUR
REQUEST FOR INTERVIEW.
CONTINUING OUR SERIES ON
ABORTION, TONIGHT, WE HEAR FROM
THE MEDICAL PERSPECTIVE.
MARISA WOJCIK HAS THIS STORY.
>> WHEN I GOT THE RESULTS, I
KNEW WHAT I WANTED TO DO.
IT WAS REALLY HARD EMOTIONALLY.
I WAS DEVASTATED.
I WANTED THAT BABY AND I WANTED
EVERYTHING TO BE FINE.
I WANTED HER TO BE HEALTHY, BUT
SHE WASN'T AND I KNEW THAT IF I
CARRIED THAT PREGNANCY TO TERM,
I WAS PUTTING MY OWN HEALTH AT
RISK AND I ALSO KNEW THAT MY
BABY F-SHE SURVIVED TO TERM,
WOULD ONLY SUFFER AND I DIDN'T
WANT THAT, SO I WAS VERY
CONFIDENT THAT I WAS MAKING THE
RIGHT DECISION FOR MY FAMILY.
>> JENNIFER MADE HER DECISION,
WHILE ABORTION WAS STILL LEGAL.
BUT CASCADE OF EVENTS FOLLOWING
THE U.S. SUPREME COURT'S RULING
ON DOBBS V JACKSON WOMEN'S
HEALTH ORGANIZATION HIT STATES
LIKE WISCONSIN THE HARDEST,
CREATING A NEAR TOTAL ABORTION
BAN IN THE STATE ONE YEAR AGO.
>> WE HAVE YET TO SEE WHAT
SYSTEMIC CONSEQUENCES THIS LAW
WILL HAVE.
>> WE'RE ALREADY SEEING IT.
WE'RE SEEING IT AT ALL LEVELS.
>> WISCONSIN HEALTHCARE
PROVIDERS FOUND THEMSELVES IN
LEGAL LIMBO AS A NUMBER OF DATED
AND CONFLICTING LAWS REMAIN IN
STATE STATUTE.
THE DEFAULT LEGAL STANDING FELL
BACK TO ONE LAW FROM 1849.
IT SAYS DESTROYING THE LIFE OF
AN UNBORN CHILD IS A FELONY
EXCEPT TO SAVE THE LIFE OF THE
MOTHER.
>> WE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THAT
GERMS CAUSED DISEASE IN 1849.
THIS WAS 70 YEARS BEFORE WOMEN
EVEN HAD THE RIGHT TO VOTE.
YOU DIDN'T EVEN OFTEN KNOW YOU
WERE PREGNANT UNTIL YOU ACTUALLY
COULD FEEL FETAL MOVEMENT.
>> WE ARE IN A SITUATION WHERE
THAT INTERPRETATION OF A LAW
FROM 1849 IS REALLY A GRAY AREA.
>> NOW WE'RE OPERATING THIS
NARROW CHANNEL OF PROVIDING THE
BEST CARE AND NOT COMMITTING
MALPRACTICE AND BEING CAREFUL
NOT TO BREAK A LAW AND SO YOU
THINK ABOUT THINGS THAT YOU
NEVER HAD TO THINK ABOUT BEFORE.
>> FOLLOWING THE DOBBS DECISION,
DOCTORS KRISTEN LYERLY,
CHRISTOPHER FORD AND JEN
MacINTOSH PUT THEMSELVES
FORWARD AS INTERVENERS IN A
LAWSUIT FILED BY STATE TORINO
JOATTORNEY GENERAL KAUL
CHALLENGING THE LAW.
AT THE PLANNED PARENTHOOD CLINIC
IN SHEBOYGAN, ONE OF THE FEW
THAT PROVIDED ABORTIONS IN THE
STATE.
>> TO KNOW THAT THE THERE'S A PE
WHERE SOMEONE CAN GO WHERE YOU
WILL BE HEARD AND HELP YOU MAKE
A DECISION THAT YOU NEED TO MAKE
WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF YOUR LIFE,
THAT WAS WHAT WE WERE DOING IN
SHEBOYGAN, AND I WAS REALLY
PROUD OF IT.
>> DR. MacINTOSH WORKS IN
MATERNAL FEELINGS MEDICINE,
TEACHES AT THE MEDICAL COLLEGE
OF WISCONSIN AND CONDUCTS
RESEARCH ON PREECLAMPSIA, A
SERIOUS CONDITION SHE SEES IN
MANY OF HER PATIENTS.
>> THOSE OF US IN THIS MEDICINE
HIGHLIGHT OUR SUBSET OF
OBSTETRICS AS KIND OF THE
HIGHEST OF HIGHS AND SOME OF THE
LOWEST OF LOWS BECAUSE WHEN WE
HAVE REALLY GREAT OUTCOMES,
TEASE SUPER REWARDING BUT AT THE
SAME TIME WE HELP FAMILIES
THROUGH TRAGIC OUTCOMES AS WELL.
THESE PREGNANT PEOPLE EITHER
HAVE HIGH-RISK CONDITIONS
THEMSELVES, SO MEDICAL
COMPLICATIONS, BUT ON THE FLIP
SIDE, WE ALSO TAKE CARE OF
FETUSES, SO GET THE MOST FAMILY
CENTERED OUTCOME THAT WE CAN.
>> DR. FORD WORKS IN EMERGENCY
MEDICINE, WITH EXPERIENCE
PRACTICING IN RURAL AND URBAN
SETTINGS.
>> AS AN EMERGENCY MEDICINE
PROVIDER, I SEE WOMEN THAT ARE
PREGNANT WHEN, YOU KNOW, THINGS
ARE GOING WRONG MOST OF THE
TIME.
WE ARE MANDATED AS EMERGENCY
PROVIDERS TO PROVIDE THE MOST
SALIENT CARE WE CAN TO PROTECT
THE LIVES OF THE PATIENTS
PROFESINFRONT OF US, SO INHERENN
OUR AREA, IF INSTABILITY FOR THE
PATIENT FOR THE LIFE OF THE
PATIENT AS WELL.
>> JEN WORKED AS A LABOR AND
DELIVERY NURSE.
>> I REALLY DISCOVERED DURING MY
CAREER THAT THOSE PARENTS GOING
THROUGH DIFFICULT SITUATIONS
WERE MY FAVORITES TO TAKE CARE
OF.
>> PRIOR TO THE DOBBS RULING,
WISCONSIN PATIENTS AND
PHYSICIANS HAD MORE OPTIONS WHEN
IT CAME TO MAKING DECISIONS
ABOUT REPRODUCTIVE HEALTHCARE.
>> WE WOULD HAVE CONVERSATIONS
ABOUT WHAT ALL THEIR OPTIONS
WERE.
WE WOULD TALK ABOUT EVERYTHING.
SOMETIMES WE WOULD CONNECT THEM
WITH PRENATAL CARE.
SOMETIMES WE COULD CONNECT THEM
WITH ADOPTION SERVICES.
SOMETIMES THEY WOULD GO HOME AND
THINK ABOUT IT AND THEY JUST
WOULDN'T RETURN FOR THAT SECOND
VISIT, BUT OFTEN THEY DID, AND
IT WASN'T UNUSUAL FOR PEOPLE TO
THANK US.
>> IT WAS FULL SCOPE CARE BASED
ON WHAT THE FAMILIES AND
PATIENTS WANTED.
SOMETIMES A DIFFERENT
UNDERSTANDING EMERGED AND
FAMILIES THAT NEVER SAW
THEMSELVES DOING THAT COULDN'T
RECONCILE SORT OF WHAT THE AFTER
LOOKED LIKE, WHICH IS TO
INTERRUPT THE FREE AGENCY AND
HAVE AN ABORTION, AND THOSE
WERE -- ALWAYS HARD CASES.
PATIENTS THAT WE CRIED WITH,
THAT I WOULD GO HOME AND CRY
ABOUT.
>> NOW THEY'RE MANAGING
REALITIES MUCH DIFFERENT THAN
BEFORE.
>> WE STILL PROVIDE THE SAME
INFORMATION AND SIMILAR
COUNSELING.
IF IT BECOMES CLEAR THAT THEY'RE
LEANING TOWARDS A TERMINATION, I
HAVE TO SAY, UNFORTUNATELY, THIS
IS ILLEGAL IN THE STATE OF
WISCONSIN, AND IF THIS IS WHAT
YOU CHOOSE TO PURSUE, THEN WE'LL
HAVE TO GIVE YOU INFORMATION ON
HOW TO PURSUE THIS OUT OF STATE,
AND IT FEELS LIKE I'M ABANDONING
MY PATIENTS AND N SAYING THAT.
>> TODAY, I AM NOT WORKING IN
WISCONSIN BECAUSE OF A LAWSUIT,
BECAUSE OF THE THREAT OF
CRIMINALIZATION FOR PROVIDING MY
PATIENTS WITH STANDARD OF CARE
MEDICINE.
SO I HAVE THE JOY OF WORKING IN
RURAL MINNESOTA AND NORTHERN
ARIZONA ON THE NAVAHO
RESERVATION.
SO IN A WAY, IT'S VERY
SATISFYING.
BUT THE TRUTH IS, I WANT TO BE
HOME.
>> IT'S BECOME A HUGE PROBLEM.
IT'S NOT A SITUATION THAT ANY OF
US WANT.
>> A CENTRAL ISSUE PHYSICIANS
MUST NOW NAVIGATE IS THE
EXCEPTION TO SAVE THE LIFE OF
THE MOTHER.
>> THE LAW AS WRITTEN IN THE
STATE OF WISCONSIN IS STILL VERY
GREAT.
THE NEXT PRESENTATION THAT
PATIENT MAY BE IN FULL-BLOWN
SEPSIS, MAY BE SOMETHING THAT IS
THREATENING FOR THE LIFE OF THE
MOTHER.
WE'VE HEARD REPORTS IN OTHER
STATES THAT HAVE VERY STRICT
ABORTION BANS LIKE WE DO HERE IN
WISCONSIN IN WHICH WE'VE HAD
PATIENTS THAT HAVE BEEN TOLD TO
WAIT IN THE CAR UNTIL THEY
BECOME EVEN MORE UNSTABLE IN
ORDER TO PRESENT TO THE
EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT, SO AT THAT
POINT IN TIME, THEY CAN DO
SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
NOW, OF COURSE THAT'S AN
EGREGIOUS EXAMPLE AND IT'S
SOMETHING THAT WE DON'T ASPIRE
TO.
HOWEVER, THAT IS SOMEONE'S
INTERPRETATION OF THE LAW IN
STATES THAT HAVE STRICTER
ABORTION LAWS, SUCH AS
WISCONSIN.
WE SEE MORBIDITY AND MORTALITY,
SIMPLE SPECIFICALLY MORTALITY FR
MOTHERS GO UP 60%.
>> IT'S INTRINSICALLY VAGUE,
WHICH THEN CAUSES PHYSICIANS TO
POTENTIALLY SECOND-GUESS, LIKE
IS THIS RISKY ENOUGH?
EVERYONE WHO PRACTICES MEDICINE
KNOWS IT CAN BE VERY GRAY FOR A
WHILE AND THEN BECOME VERY BLACK
AND WHITE, AND THE LONGER YOU
WAIT TO INTERVENE, THE WORSE THE
OUTCOMES ARE IN GENERAL.
>> THERE WAS A TIME WHEN I WAS
IN MINNESOTA WHERE SOMEONE
PRESENTED IN AN EMERGENCY IN AN
AMBULANCE.
SHE WAS BLEEDING.
SHE WAS 21 WEEKS PREGNANT WITH A
DESIRED PREGNANCY BUT SHE WAS
BLEEDING SO MUCH, SHE HAD TO GO
TO THE OPERATING ROOM RIGHT
AWAY, AND I HAD TO PERFORM AN
ABORTION, AND I COULDN'T HELP
WEBUT TO THINK TO MYSELF, IF THS
WAS HAPPENING TO ME IN
WISCONSIN, I WOULD BE TERRIFIED
ABOUT WHAT THE NEXT STEPS WOULD
BE, ABOUT WHAT THE IMPLICATIONS
FOR MY FUTURE, MY CAREER WOULD
BE.
>> THERE WILL STILL ALWAYS BE
SOME PROVIDERS WHO ARE VERY
CONCERNED ABOUT THAT, AS THEY
RIGHTLY SO SHOULD BE.
THERE'S RISK OF PROSECUTION UP
TO SIX YEARS AS WELL AS A
$10,000 FINE.
THERE'S THINGS THAT WILL LIKELY
BE IN THE BACK OF A LOT OF
PROVIDERS' MINDS, ESPECIALLY
THOSE PRACTICING IN MORE RURAL
LOCATIONS.
>> HAVING THE PROCEDURE DONE
WITHOUT ANY ADDITIONAL BARRIERS
MADE ALL THE DIFFERENCE FOR JEN.
>> DEALING WITH THE GRIEF AND
THE STRESS TO HAVE TO JUMP
THROUGH THOSE EXTRA HOOPS WHILE
ALSO DEALING WITH THAT, I
HONESTLY DON'T KNOW HOW I WOULD
NAVIGATE IT.
SO NOW WHEN I LOOK BACK, I FEEL
SO RECOVERED AND HEALED.
I ALSO WOULDN'T HAVE MY SON IF I
DIDN'T HAVE THIS ABORTION
BECAUSE OF THE TIMING IF I HAD
TO CARRY IT TO TERM.
JULIAN, HE IS -- HE JUST TURNED
SIX AND HE IS ONE OF THE MOST
JOYFUL AND CURIOUS PEOPLE I'VE
EVER MET.
HE JUST KIND OF IS A BALL OF
ENERGY.
HE COMES IN HERE AND RUNS AND
JUMPS OVER MY COUCH AND IS VERY
SNUGGLY AND TELLS ME ALL THE
TIME HOW MUCH HE LOVES ME.
THE MORE WE TRY TO FOCUS ON IS
THAT RIGHT OR WRONG OR IS THAT
OKAY, THE MORE WE'RE FOCUSED ON
MAKING CHOICES FOR OTHER PEOPLE
WHEN WE'RE NOT INVOLVED IN THEIR
HEALTHCARE AND WE'RE NOT MEDICAL
PROFESSIONALS.
>> PHYSICIANS WORRY NOT ONLY
ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES TODAY,
BUT THOSE YET TO COME.
>> THERE'S CERTAINLY A DOMINO
EFFECTS.
>> AND WHAT I'M SEEING OVER AND
OVER AGAIN IS THIS GETTING WORSE
OVER TIME, AND A LOT OF THAT HAS
TO DO WITH THE ACCESS OF
HEALTHCARE, WITH THE ACCESS OF,
YOU KNOW, CARE TO GYNECOLOGY.
A LOT OF THESE WOMEN IN THESE
AREAS RELY ON THEIR OB/GYNS AS
PRIMARY CARE, TO BE HONEST WITH
YOU, AND A LOT OF THAT MORTALITY
INCREASE THAT WE'RE SEEING IS
THE LACK OF THE ABILITY TO HAVE
FOLLOW-UP, NOT ONLY AS WE SAID
BEFORE ARE WE CREATING THOSE
HEALTHCARE DESERTS IN RURAL
SETTINGS, WE'RE DOING THAT IN
INNER CITY SETTINGS, TOO, WHICH
ARE ALREADY HAVING A LOT OF
ISSUES INHERENT TO ACCESS OF
CARE AND GENERAL AS WELL AS
HEALTHCARE OUTCOMES, AND SO
THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT FOR ME
PERSONALLY I TAKE MUCH STAKE IN.
IT'S SOMETHING THAT I WILL
CONTINUE TO FIGHT FOR THESE
PATIENTS BECAUSE THEY NEED A
VOICE.
EVERYBODY NEEDS A VOICE IN THIS
FIGHT AND A LOT OF THE VOICES
THAT ARE AT THE TABLE RIGHT NOW
DON'T SEE THESE PATIENTS AND
THEY DON'T HAVE ANY MEDICAL
BACKGROUND, AND THEY'RE MAKING
THESE DECISIONS.
>> I TALK TO RECRUITERS ALL THE
TIME WHO ARE LOOKING FOR DOCTORS
IN STATES LIKE TEXAS, AND IT'S
NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND
DOCTORS WHO ARE WILLING TO GO TO
STATES THAT HAVE SUCH HOSTILE
BANS.
SO, YEAH, I THINK THIS IS THE
TIP OF THE ICEBERG, AND IF WE
CAN'T TURN THIS SHIP AROUND,
THIS DIRE PHYSICIAN SHORTAGE
THAT WE ARE ALREADY EXPERIENCING
IS GOING TO GET MUCH WORSE,
FAMILY MEDICINE DOCTORS, WHO ARE
THE SAFETY NET IN RURAL
WISCONSIN, WHERE PEOPLE ARE
ALREADY SUFFERING.
>> MOST OF ALL, THESE HEALTHCARE
PROVIDERS WANT TO GO BACK TO THE
LAW AS IT STOOD IN WISCONSIN
PRIOR TO THE DOBBS RULING.
>> I JUST WANT TO DO MY JOB.
THE FACT THAT POLITICS ARE
TRYING TO BE PRESENT IN MY EXAM
ROOM, PRESENT IN THE BACK OF MY
MIND AS I'M LOOKING AT A PATIENT
AND TALKING TO HER -- TO THAT
PATIENT AND THEIR FAMILY, THAT
IT'S IMPACTING THAT AT ALL FEELS
CRAZY TO ME BECAUSE, REALLY, WE
SHOULD JUST BE PROVIDING THE
BEST EVIDENCE-BASED MEDICAL CARE
THAT WE CAN THAT'S RIGHT FOR
THAT PATIENT AND RIGHT FOR THEIR
FAMILY.
>> REPORTING FOR "HERE AND NOW,"
I'M MARISA WOJCIK.
>> AS TO THE LAWSUIT CHALLENGING
THE WISCONSIN ABORTION BAN,
ATTORNEY GENERAL KAUL IS SEEKING
TO EXPEDITE AN INJUNCTION
RELATED TO A RECENTLY CIRCUIT
COURT DECISION IN THE CASE.
THE CASE IS EXPECTED TO END UP
BEFORE THE STATE SUPREME COURT.
FOR MORE ON THIS AND OUR
PREVIOUS REPORTING ON ABORTION
IN WISCONSIN, INCLUDING HEARING
FROM WOMEN WHO HAVE HAD AN
ABORTION AND PREGNANCY RESOURCE
CENTERS THAT DISCOURAGE THEM,
VISIT OUR WEBSITE AT PBS