Wisconsin. PBS Wisconsin original
production. >> You're watching "Here& Now"
2024 election coverage. Less than one week after Donald Trump
calls Milwaukee a horrible city, I love Milwaukee. I was the one
that picked the Milwaukee. He opens his latest Wisconsin
rally, revising his sentiments about the city that will host
the Republican National Convention next month. I'm
Frederica Freyberg tonight on "Here& Now, we look at messages
from the presidential candidates and how they're resonating with
Wisconsin voters. More two year UW campuses are closing. But
there's a new solution in sight. And a lawmaker and Milwaukee
parent attempts to give context to the district's dire financial
situation. It's "Here& Now" for June 21st, funding for "Here&
Now" is provided by the Focus Fund for journalism and friends
announcement that UW Oshkosh Fox Cities will close at the end of
this school year brings to six the number of two year campus
closures across the state, what some have called a demographics.
Cliff leaves, enrollments at the branch campuses, falling to the
point where the UW administration says the status
quo is not sustainable because even with deep cuts and
closures, the universities of Wisconsin System projects a
nearly $17.5 million deficit through 2025. Now, it's not like
the writing hasn't been on the wall, or that people haven't
tried to stave off closures. But our next guest says, what's
happening now? Didn't have to be inevitable. Rich Barnhouse is
President of the Waukesha County Technical College and a former
vice chancellor in charge of enrollment at UW colleges. We
should note PBS Wisconsin is part of UW-Madison.
>> I think if there had been a collective approach to looking
at what was going to be coming down the line and about 10 or 15
years with really, acute thinking about what we wanted to
be as a system, as, as universities, as we approach
2030 and 2035, taking into consideration things that we
knew were real demographics. Right? We we've known for years,
not just in Wisconsin, but across the country, that there
was going to be a major change in the demographics that were
going to impact colleges and universities. That's certainly
things that we couldn't really anticipate. You know, one of
those obviously being how people feel about a college or
university education and what Gen Z was going to do or be
interested in when they got to college, or what type of
experience they wanted, how much they were willing to pay those
things we couldn't really see. But the thing that we could was
simple demographics. And had we started thinking about it in a
proactive way early on, I think we could have had a robust
conversation and come up with some reasonable solutions. I
don't think that that would have meant that nothing would have
changed, or that there wouldn't have been things that might have
contracted, but it might have been done in a way that I think
people would have found a little bit more reasonable.
>> It is true that people have been talking about that
so-called demographic cliff for decades. Why the inaction?
>> You know, I'll just speak broadly about higher education
in general. I've worked on a number of different states. I
think that there is this concept that if we continue to do what
we're doing, which is really, really good, truthfully, if we
continue to do it, the forces, the market forces, the
demographic forces won't impact us because what we're doing is
really, really good work. And it's having a major impact on
society and the economy. So I think higher education has often
been shielded from what businesses find to be a harsh
reality. And now in higher education across the country and
of course, Wisconsin as well, we find ourselves in the middle,
right directly in the middle of that reality.
>> As to the two year colleges, which are the ones that are
being announced, are closing or have closed already, was there
ever a benefit to the duplication of the four year and
the two year campuses? >> Sure. There was absolutely.
For years and years, the two year UW really behaved like the
elastic band for the system. So as enrollment changed over time,
sometimes there would be ballooning enrollments and then
sometimes there would be a decline. And so the UW colleges
for years served as that elastic band that really managed, I
think, quite well, how many students were going into the
four year institutions and managing that on the front end?
And so I think there was a time where it did work really well.
The other thing is, you know, years ago there just wasn't the
technology available to do anything remotely or by
distance. And that certainly over the past 20 or 25 years has
changed things as well. And I think also, and this is just my
opinion, but there was a significant tie to local
communities that students coming out of high schools had. And
that's changed quite dramatically as well.
>> Why not just kind of have the technical college system take
over the UW two years? >> My immediate thinking on that
is what merger does is it simply moves an existing issue or
problem somewhere else. It doesn't solve that problem. So,
for example, if the two two year systems, colleges and the tech
colleges were combined, the problem still exists. The number
of campuses, the declining enrollments, the number of
faculty, and the overall financial picture that doesn't
change at all. It just shifts where that issue goes and who
has to solve it. And so for that reason, merger isn't a solution.
It just moves the problem to a different place.
>> And yet I thought I read that you said that, for example, at
your technical college, you have capacity, you have space, you
have the infrastructure. So what does that mean?
>> Well, I can give you a real life example of what we're doing
right now. So Chancellor Mahoney. Chancellor. Chancellor
Milwaukee, a good friend and colleague of mine. We've been
talking for a number of years, and recently you've probably
heard that UW Milwaukee is closing their Waukesha campus.
So what Chancellor Mahoney and I decided to do was not simply
bring those the majority of those students over, should they
want to continue to Wkctc. We decided to take a significant
leap forward. And I think what could be a model for the state,
and that is we're going to build a, university center right on
our campus so that students can participate with Wkctc as well
as, and what we really know is going to happen is that a lot of
students will start in their associate degree of a variety of
fields and end up taking baccalaureate degree classes,
is that anybody in the community can take anything from a short
term certificate all the way through graduate programs right
on our campus with seamless interaction. So that students
really don't feel the sort of jerky thing that happens during
a traditional, transfer process. >> And how is that being looked
at? On the part of administration, UW
like it is a model? >> Well, I, I think and to their
credit, the other campuses are thinking we're going to wait and
see if Chancellor Mooney and President Barnhouse and their
teams can pull this off. We know that we will. We're very excited
about it. And I think that the response from both systems has
been, I would say, very positive and really supportive. And I
think for the legislators that I've spoken with, they're also
quite supportive of us taking a different look at how we can
provide higher education in a really strong partnership way,
almost like siblings, and delivering for the community
great rich Barnhouse, thanks very much. Thank you very much.
>> This week, millions of people across the country celebrate
June 19th, also known as Juneteenth Day. The date marks
the end of slavery in 1865. A Wisconsin based organization
purposely broke ground on June 19th on its center to help black
Wisconsinites. Hundreds took part in the groundbreaking
celebration of the center for Black Excellence and Culture
Complex on Madison's south side. The $33 million project is the
long time vision of Reverend Alex G. He says the center will
cultivate black history, education, culture and
innovation in his childhood community and across the state.
>> Today, we break the ground beneath us, but tomorrow we
break the mold by by inspiring future young black history
makers who will embody the essence and the power of the
dream of our ancestors. This was their dream. On Juneteenth Day,
June 19th, 1865, when the word of freedom finally reached their
weary but ready ears. >> The center for Black
Excellence continues to raise funds to help pay for staff
operations and programs. It's expected to open by the end of
next year. In other news, outside auditors have until
Monday to submit proposals taking a fine tooth comb to
Milwaukee Public Schools financial manager sent a
separate audit ordered by Governor Tony Evers, will
examine the district's instructional practices and the
audits are on a fast track after financial scandal rocked Mnps
earlier this month, resulting in the resignation of its
superintendent. The loss of millions of dollars in withheld
aid over missing financial data and a chorus of naysayers even
calling to dissolve the district . Milwaukee Democrat Chris
Senate Education Committee and is an NPS parent. He's here with
his thoughts on this mess. And, Senator, thanks very much for
being here. Frederica. So you support MPs
and send your children there. >> But how shocking was all of
this for you? >> Yeah, I mean, it was a
surprise, when we got our first call, right before the memorial
Day weekend, that there was reports that had not been
adjusted for audits, going back months, and that there had been
a problem in communicating between DPI and the
administrators at Milwaukee Public Schools and that that was
going to result in the delayed aid payments for special
education reimbursement and possibly larger, so, yeah, I was
surprised as, as everybody about this, especially given the
implications. constituents this week offered a
lesson in kind of how this went down. First, you dipped back
into history explaining how in the 1990s, the business office
at NPS was consolidated into the superintendents office. How in
your mind did that pave the way for what's happening now?
>> Yeah. So bac, originally as it had been functioning, it was
divided, so you had the superintendent who was in charge
of instructional, management, and then you had the financial
side that was governed by the board. Howard Fuller, who is the
superintendent of NPS at the time, asked for the power to
shift from the board over to have it completely under the
superintendent, there needed to be a state law change. They went
to the state legislature and the governor who made that change in
the budget and then shortly thereafter, the school board
consolidated those powers under the superintend audit. What they
did is they eliminated financial , check of making sure that what
was happening over there was going to be checked not just by
the superintendent, but by the school board. So since then,
they've only been able to trust whatever the superintendents
office is saying because the financial manager is over on
that side. >> So you also point out that
the district's finance office has been critically
understaffed, resulting in these failures.
>> Whose fault is that? >> Yeah, I mean, look, they are
down 12 positions, two key ones by their, their own definition
on that is something that the school board actually asked
about in a meeting back in December, about staffing issues,
because trying to make sure that they were staffed up, was a
priority for them, the superintendent's office said
point blank that they were staffed up and that they were
only short two, so they tried to the best of their ability. The
school board tried to make sure that these positions were filled
and that things were being done in a proper way, but again, if
you don't have a proper check, you don't actually know what's
going on. And I would add, I think it's worth noting that I
think, you know, for viewers, a lot of times they view all
elected officials as being on the same plane. But for school
board members in Milwaukee, much part time, mostly volunteer
positions where they are each paid less than $20,000, which,
to put it in perspective, people working minimum wage job, make
just about that for the number of hours that they're putting
in, all of them have full time jobs beyond this. And so their
ability to be able to do their own financial research is, is
fairly limited. They do not have staff as legislators do, as
other people in other offices do. So they can ask the
questions, but they're really at the mercy of the superintendent,
his office, and what they're going to present to them.
>> And so you're suggesting that there surprise in this
information is kind of not their own fault?
>> Well, I would say, look, if you want to have a professional
board, of people who are governing the largest school
district in the state, and this is a, a budget that is larger
than any municipality in the state of Wisconsin, including
Milwaukee, you might want to have them be in full time
positions to do that work. And there's been a reluctance to
elevate them that to that level, but you would avoid a lot of
these problems, right? >> So you, you take issue,
though, with people who malign the district or call for its
dissolution, but is this not an outrage that hurts the students?
Some of our most vulnerable students, the most?
>> Yeah, I mean, indeed. And I am frustrated as well. But I
think it's better to put the frustration right where it
belongs. And I would put that at the state, not at the school
board level. There has been a malicious and deliberate
underfunding of public education in our state for decades, you
can mark on a, on a chart that 15 years ago on a per pupil
basis, students were worth more than they are today. They they
are not even keeping pace with inflation. And so to expect
better outcomes, especially for kids in public school, many of
whom are homeless, many of whom are, malnourished and have other
needs. And if we're not funding those underlying problems,
funding solutions to those, well, we're going to get these
exact same results. So it's a little disingenuous to try and
go to the same people who have been carving up MPs and
attacking it for years and asking them what they think we
should be doing. It's kind of like a cow asking the butcher
how to be able to live a long life.
>> Senator Chris Larson, we leave it there. Thanks very much
. Thank you. In northern Wisconsin, the year and a half
long dispute over road easements reaches a new juncture. The town
Board of Lac du Flambeau recently voted that they would
no longer pay the tribe. The Lac du Flambeau Band of Lake
Superior Chippewa, an increasing monthly amount to keep four
roads open, saying they can't afford the cost. The tribe says
they do not accept the town's decision to reduce the amount
the town voted to make a full June July payment of $46,000 and
paid $20,000 per month going forward. In January of last
year, the tribe closed the roads after a decade of expired
easements and no new agreement in sight. The roads, which
provide access to Non-tribe residents, are part of the
reservation land. The tribe removed the barricades after the
town agreed to pay monthly fees in exchange for access until a
new agreement is reached. The tribe is seeking damages
totaling nearly $10 million, half of its original request to
remedy years of town residents trespassing. Both the town and
the tribe have expressed a desire to open the lines of
communication. However, the tribe says it will take
necessary actions if the town does not make monthly payments
of the amount previously agreed upon. In Racine. Donald Trump's
visit this week marked his third trip to Wisconsin this year, and
we will see much more of him with the Republican National
Convention in Milwaukee next month. What a ride. It has been
since he first entered the race for president in 2016. It was at
that time we discussed his nascent run with Uw-stevens
Point professor of political science John Blakeman. We check
back in with him now. And nice to see you, Professor.
>> Thank you. >> So of course, Donald Trump
won Wisconsin and the presidency in 2016, but we talked a lot
then about how he was leading with how it would be a rigged
election. And clearly that still figures prominently in his
messaging. >> Yes, that is absolutely true.
The fact that so many federal and state judges dealt with
different, different cases concerning the 2020 election and
, and it still resonates so strongly against a good
percentage of within the electorate, just strikes me as
completely bizarre, you know, and it's something that
political scientists are studying. But no one is really
able to fully explain why this the big lie, as it's called, has
become so entrenched in a part of the electorate in Racine this
week, he continued to say that he did a lot better in Wisconsin
in 2020 than in 2016. >> He did not. He lost to Joe
Biden. Do voters just chalk this another kind of fact challenged
comments to Trump being Trump and does that matter?
>> Well, I part of it is, yes, Trump being Trump. And he's just
a different type of political candidate, I know that doesn't
help people necessarily understand it, but there's
really good qualitative research coming out now based on in-depth
interviews with a wide range of voters. And for a lot of really
strong Trump supporters, the truthfulness doesn't necessarily
matter for them. What matters is he's sort of giving it back to
political elites. He's sort of putting them in the hot seat.
He's embarrassing them and that's what really hardcore
Trump supporters like. It's the truthfulness doesn't matter.
It's the fact that he's going after people who they think,
have an outsized control over the political system.
>> The other or one other thing that we spoke about together in
2016 was rural race, age. With immigration. The leading issue
there. RFK, Jr. how has that changed over these past two
cycles? election cycles, it's become
much more entrenched in rural areas. I mean, a Pew polling and
I think PRI both show that, over 60% of rural voters typically
rank immigration as their top 1 or 2 national issues that they
focus on. They don't encounter immigrants as much as urban or
suburban voters do, and it could just be the place. Boundedness
the fact that they don't interact with non citizens,
migrant workers so much, immigrants, that probably is one
of the main reasons that affects their views on immigration on
but you know, support for building Trump's wall on the
southern border is much, much stronger in rural areas than it
is in urban and suburban areas, and again, that's one of those
it's sort of an oddity, especially, in rural areas that
are far removed from the southern border, like Wisconsin,
Minnesota, the Dakotas, you know, Minnesota and the Dakotas,
North Dakota obviously share an international border. But the
immigration problems in the north are not nearly as severe
and dramatic as in the South. >> Interesting. Well, when we
speak again in eight years, I hope it's sooner. But what do
you think we will have seen then?
be optimistic. >> I think, the Republican Party
will pack back a little bit towards center, right where it
historically is, the Trump faction within the Republican
Party won't be nearly as strong eight years from now. There's
probably got to be a successor to Donald Trump in the
Republican Party, and that successor who knows who it will
be. But, I will predict that our politics will tack back towards
the center and become a little more even Kiel.
>> All right, we don't hold me to that, though.
>> Oh, I'm going to, Professor John Blakeman, thanks very much.
>> Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.
>> As Wisconsin grapples with some tough issues with schools
from K-12 to college level, we gained some insight from an
expert on education, especially instruction. In this month's In
Focus Extended Interview segment, special projects
journalist Murv Seymour sat down with Courtney Bell, director of
the Wisconsin Center for Education Research.
>> We do know that the online learning for the average child
is not useful. You can imagine young people might be more
interested in playing a game off to the side versus paying
attention to their zoom call. And it's hard for a lot of kids
without that interaction, that said, for some kids, the
pandemic and being away. I've heard stories, individual
stories where it's been really good for a child, where they
were finally getting the attention that maybe they needed
or hadn't gotten. So I don't think the news was awful for
every child in the country. But over alarmingly, the
conversation in the research community is what are we doing
now to remedy the situation? There are big learning losses
that will affect this whole generation of kids, not
dissimilar from the 2008 recession did. And you know, we
know that that has impacted those young people.
>> Yeah. I was curious to know if there are any aspects of
remote teaching, that work well or that may stick around. Now
that things are more normal than they were when this all started.
Like, are there any pieces of that that are going to stick
around? >> Well, we've seen some things
stick. have snow days and things like
that, some school districts have chosen to like, okay, everybody
has zoom on their computers. We've got 1 to 1 computing in
many places, not all places, not all kids, but then we can say,
okay, take your computers home and we're going to do some
things remotely so that in some that that part seems to have
stuck in certain places. I think some of the individualization
has stuck, like here in Madison Public Schools, when they've had
maybe not enough teachers to teach, let's say a gifted class
or a class that's meant to help young people who are a little
further behind. They've been able to have that teacher be
centrally located and teach kids across the district. So some of
that, has stuck, I think, and some of the like getting access
to really good, like, let's say an AP course where that might
have been done in a, you know, somebody had to drive or they
sent a bus to go pick up a few children from one district and
bus them to another. That can I think that technology, we're
more fluid with that. I think that has helped. And I think one
other thing is teachers, all of a sudden were catapulted into
needing to be able to learn, learn to use these learning
management systems. So putting course assignments, those kinds
of things. And so for older students in particular, that
stuff seems to have really stuck.
issues facing Wisconsin, visit our web site at PBS Wisconsin.
Org and then click on the news tab to see all our election
coverage. Visit Wisconsin Vote.org. That's our program for
tonight. I'm Frederica Freyberg. Have a good weekend.
>> Funding for Here and Now is provided by the Focus Fund for
Journalism and Friends of PBS.