>> THE FOLLOWING PROGRAM IS A
PBS WISCONSIN ORIGINAL
PRODUCTION.
>> THE RACE FOR THE WHITE HOUSE
TAKES FLIGHT.
WELCOME TO THE FIRST DEBATE OF
THE 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN,
LIVE IN MILWAUKEE.
>> THE FIRST REPUBLICAN
PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARY DEBATE
TAKES THE MILWAUKEE STAGE, WHILE
EXTREME HEAT LEADS TO SCHOOL
CLOSURES.
I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.
TONIGHT ON "HERE AND NOW," A
RUN-DOWN OF THE FIRST STAND-OFF
BETWEEN G.O.P. PRESIDENTIAL
HOPEFULS WITH REFLECTIONS FROM
VOTERS, AND OUR POLITICAL
PANELS, BILL McCOSHEN AND
SCOTT ROSS.
THE LAST IN OUR ABORTION SERIES
LOOKS AT THE MEDICAL
PERSPECTIVE.
IT'S "HERE AND NOW" FOR AUGUST
25.
>> FUNDING FOR "HERE & NOW" IS PROVIDED BY THE FOCUS FUND FOR JOURNALISM AND FRIENDS OF PBS
WISCONSIN.
>> THE HEAT WAS ON IN MILWAUKEE
THIS WEEK WITH EIGHT CANDIDATES
APPEARING FOR THEIR FIRST DEBATE
WEDNESDAY NIGHT.
AS STEVEN POTTER REPORTS, VOTERS
GOT A LOOK AT THE REPUBLICAN
SLATE OF PRESIDENTIAL HOPEFULS
FOR THE UPCOMING 2024 ELECTION.
SPEAKER AS A VOTER, I DIDN'T
WALK AWAY COMPLETELY SOLD OR
COMPLETELY PUT OFF BY ANYONE,
REALLY.
>> THAT'S DESPITE THE EIGHT
CANDIDATES TRYING TO MAKE THEIR
MARK.
>> THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
YOU AND ME.
>> IT WAS COMICAL AT A POINT.
I'VE SEEN ASPECTS OF SOME OF THE
COMPETITORS THAT I HADN'T HEARD
BEFORE.
>> POLITICAL SCIENTIST MORDECAI
LEE SAYS REPUBLICANS HAVE AN
IMPRESSIVELY DEEP BENCH.
>> WITH WISCONSIN BEING 49.9%
DEMOCRATIC AND 49.9%
REPUBLICANS, I THINK FOR THE
DEMOCRATS WHO WERE WATCHING, THE
MORAL OF THE STORY IS BE AFRAID.
BE VERY AFRAID.
>> WHILE FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD
TRUMP WASN'T THERE, HIS PRESENCE
WAS FELT.
[CHANTING]
>> HE WAS IN THE ROOM EVEN
THOUGH HE WASN'T IN THE ROOM,
AND I'M DISAPPOINTED THAT HE
DIDN'T SHOW UP, ALTHOUGH I THINK
WE DO NEED A DIFFERENT
PRESIDENT.
>> I AM LEANING TOWARDS TRUMP,
BUT WITHOUT HIM HERE, I THOUGHT
IT WOULD BE A GOOD TIME TO HEAR
LOUDLY FROM THE OTHER
CANDIDATES.
>> ONE OF THE MOST DISAGREEABLE
TOPICS OF THE NIGHT WAS
ABORTION.
>> I WILL SUPPORT THE CAUSE OF
LIFE AS GOVERNOR AND AS
PRESIDENT.
>> LET'S TREAT THIS LIKE A
RESPECTFUL ISSUE THAT IT IS AND
HUMANIZE THE SITUATION AND STOP
DEMONIZING THE SITUATION.
>> CONSENSUS IS THE OPPOSITE OF
LEADERSHIP.
WHEN THE SUPREME COURT RETURNED
THIS QUESTION TO THE AMERICAN
PEOPLE, THEY DIDN'T JUST SEND IT
TO THE STATES ONLY.
IT'S NOT A STATES-ONLY ISSUE.
IT'S A MORAL ISSUE.
>> ANOTHER HOT BUTTON ISSUE,
CLIMATE CHANGE.
>> THE CLIMATE CHANGE IS A HOAX.
>> FIRST, YES, IS CLIMATE CHANGE
REAL, YES, IT IS, BUT IF YOU
WANT TO GO AND REALLY CHANGE THE
ENVIRONMENT, THEN WE NEED TO
START TELLING CHINA AND INDIA
THAT THEY HAVE TO LOWER THEIR
EMISSIONS.
>> THE CANDIDATES WERE ALSO
ASKED IF THEY WOULD STILL
SUPPORT REPUBLICAN FRONTRUNNER
TRUMP DESPITE THE CHARGES
STACKING UP AGAINST HIM.
>> SOMEONE'S GOT TO STOP
NORMALIZING THIS CONDUCT.
OKAY?
AND, NOW, WHETHER OR NOT...
WHETHER OR NOT YOU BELIEVE THAT
THE CRIMINAL CHARGES ARE RIGHT
OR WRONG, THE CONDUCT IS BENEATH
THE OFFICE OF PRESIDENT OF THE
UNITED STATES.
[APPLAUSE]
>> PRESIDENT TRUMP, I BELIEVE,
WAS THE BEST PRESIDENT 21st
CENTURY.
>> NOT SURPRISINGLY, DEMOCRATS
WEREN'T IMPRESSED.
>> A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT REALLY
DIDN'T SEEM TO RECOGNIZE WHY
REPUBLICANS LOST IN 2020, IN
2022, AND ESPECIALLY THIS SPRING
IN WISCONSIN IN THE SUPREME
COURT ELECTION.
THE PUBLIC DOESN'T LIKE THIS
KIND OF EXTREMISM.
>> FOR HIS PART, MORDECAI LEE
SAYS DEBATES LIKE THIS GIVE
VOTERS THE CHANCE TO CHOOSE
THEIR TOP TIER CANDIDATES.
>> YOU'VE GOT THREE THAT YOU
LIKE IN A CERTAIN PRIORITY.
THERE'S A ACCIDENT CHANCE THAT
AT LEAST ONE OF THEM WILL BE
STANDING AND STILL IN THE RACE
BY THE TIME APRIL COMES AROUND.
>> REPORTING FROM MILWAUKEE FOR
"HERE AND NOW," I'M STEVEN
POTTER.
>> FOR THEIR TAKE ON THE
REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARY
DEBATE, TWO VETERAN POLITICOS.
OUR POLITICAL PANELIST
REPUBLICAN BILL McCOSHEN AND
DEMOCRAT SCOTT ROSS.
THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US,
GUYS.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.
>> FIRST, WHAT WAS YOUR TAKE OF
THE DEBATE?
>> I LIKED IT.
AS A FORMER HOCKEY COACH, I LIKE
THE FACT THAT THEY COMPETED FOR
THE NOMINATION.
YOU CAN'T TEACH KIDS TO COMPETE
AND SIX OF THEM I THINK BROUGHT
THEIR "A" GAME.
I DIDN'T THINK HUTCHINSON OR TIM
SCOTT DID, BUT THE OTHERS
COMPETED TO GET THIS NOMINATION.
MY RANKING OF THE DEBATE THE
OTHER NIGHT WOULD BE DONALD
TRUMP NUMBER ONE.
HE DIDN'T GET HIT AT ALL THE
WHOLE NIGHT.
RON DeSANTIS, NUMBER TWO.
I WOULD HAVE HAD VIVEK RAMASWAMY
NUMBER THREE AND NIKKI HALEY
NUMBER FOUR AND MIKE PENCE
NUMBER 5.
THERE'S A COUPLE PROBLEMS WITH A
FEW OF THEM.
ONE WAS TRUMP.
HE WASN'T THERE.
WE'LL SEE OVER TIME WHETHER OR
NOT THIS HURTS HIS BIG LEAD
NATIONALLY AND IN THE KEY
STATES.
I THINK IT WILL.
NUMBER TWO, VIVEK VFNLT HE TRIED
TO FILL THE OUTSIDER LANE WHICH
TRUMP HAS FULLY FILLED.
THE ONE THING THE MODERATORS
DIDN'T ASK HIM, THE FOLLOW-UP
QUESTION SHOULD HAVE BEEN HE'S
IN THIS RACE, WHY ARE YOU IN
THIS RACE?
NOBODY ASKED HIM THAT.
THE FINAL ONE IS MIKE PENCE.
SCOTT ROSS HAS MORE CHANCE OF
GETTING THE REPUBLICAN
NOMINATION THAN MIKE PENCE DOES.
VOTERS WILL NEVER ALLOW HIM TO
BE THE NOMINEE, SO I THINK IT'S
TIME FOR THE FORMER VP TO EXIT
STAGE LEFT.
>> WHAT DO YOU THINK?
>> IF THIS IS JUST AN EXCUSE TO
TRY TO GET ME TO GO TO MILWAUKEE
NEXT YEAR, THAT'S NOT THE WAY TO
DO IT.
[LAUGHTER]
>> WHAT I SAW WITH THE AMERICAN
PEOPLE SAW, WHICH IS AGREEING
WITH BILL ON THE FACT THAT
DONALD TRUMP, YOU KNOW, CAME IN
SECOND.
JOE BIDEN CAME IN FIRST IN THAT
DEBATE BECAUSE WHAT YOU SAW WAS
A GROUP OF PEOPLE TRYING TO
CLAMOR FOR DONALD TRUMP'S
APPROVAL WHILE ISSUING OPINIONS
THAT ARE JUST SO BEYOND WHAT THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE SUPPORTING
RIGHT NOW.
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DO SUPPORT
ABORTION RIGHTS.
THE REPUBLICANS WILL HAVE A
NATIONWIDE ABORTION BAN.
THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OPPOSES
CLIMATE CHANGE AND DOESN'T
BELIEVE IT EXISTS.
WE SAW THAT IN THE JUST TERRIBLE
LACK OF RAISING HANDS AND THAT
SORT OF THING.
OVERALL, I THINK THE BIG NEWS
THERE WAS THAT RON DeSANTIS
TURNED OUT TO BE EXACTLY THE
PAPER TIGER THAT DONALD TRUMP
SAID HE WAS BECAUSE HE HAD
ABSOLUTELY NO IMPACT IN THAT
DEBATE OTHER THAN LETTING US
KNOW THAT ANY SINGLE TIME HE'S
ASKED A QUESTION, HE'S GOING TO
ANSWER IT IN A VERY SURLY,
SWARMY WAY.
IF YOU'RE BEING IRRITATING LIKE
VIVEK, I THINK THAT'S A FEAT
WELL DONE.
>> MORDECAI LEE JUST SAID IN THE
REPORT THAT WE HAVE ON THE
DEBATE THAT REPUBLICANS HAVE A
DEEP BENCH OF IMPRESSIVE
PRESIDENTIAL HOPEFULS TO THE
EXTENT HE SAID THAT DEMOCRATS
SHOULD BE VERY, VERY AFRAID.
WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?
>> THE DEMOCRATS HAVE JOE BIDEN
TO RUN THIS TIME.
HE IS THE INCUMBENT PRESIDENT.
HE HAS CREATED 13 MILLION JOBS.
HE HAS HELPED BUILD AN COMEEP
ECONOMY FROM THE GROUND UP AND
THE MIDDLE OUT THAT IS HELPING
ALL OF AMERICANS TO TRY AND
THRIVE IN THESE TRYING TIMES.
THE DEMOCRATS DON'T NEED A GOOD
BENCH RIGHT NOW IN 2024 BECAUSE
THEY'LL BE RUNNING IN 2028 WITH
A WHOLE NEW CANDIDATE.
>> JOE BIDEN IS 106 YEARS OLD.
I MEAN, YOU HAVE NO BENCH AT
THIS POINT IN TIME.
I AGREE WITH MORDECAI ON THIS.
THE ONE ACTUALLY WHO IMPRESSED
ME THE MOST BUT PROBABLY WON'T
LAST MUCH LONGER WITH NORTH
DAKOTA DOUG BURGUM.
I THOUGHT HE WAS AUTHENTIC WITH
SMOOTH ANSWERS.
THE REALITY IS, HE PROBABLY
WON'T MEET THE THRESHOLD FOR
DEBATE IN SEPTEMBER.
>> SO SOMEHOW DOES DONALD TRUMP
MAINTAIN SUCH A COMMANDING LEAD
EVEN AS HE TURNS HIMSELF IN FOR
ARREST ON HIS LATEST INDICTMENT?
>> THERE'S TOO MANY CANDIDATES
IN THIS FIELD.
THE REALITY IS, THOSE THAT DID
NOT QUALIFY FOR THE MILWAUKEE
DEBATE SHOULD ALREADY BE OUT OF
THIS RACE.
THOSE WHO DO NOT QUALIFY FOR
CALIFORNIA WHEN THE STANDARDS
GET RAISED SHOULD ALSO DROP OUT.
THE NOTION THAT THIS WILL GET
DECIDED IN NEW HAMPSHIRE OR
SOUTH CAROLINA OR ON SUPER
TUESDAY IS NONSENSE IN THIS
CYCLE.
THIS CYCLE IS MOVING FASTER THAN
ANY IN OUR LIFETIME.
IF THOSE WHO WANT ANOTHER
ALTERNATIVE OTHER THAN DONALD
TRUMP TO BE THE NOMINATOR OF THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY, IF YOU ARE
SUPPORTING SOMEONE OTHER THAN
RON DeSANTIS OR NIKKI HALEY AT
THIS POINT, YOU ARE WASTING YOUR
TIME AND YOUR MONEY.
THE OTHERS NEED TO GET OUT SO
THAT WE CAN SCHAI CONSOLIDATE TS
RACE.
>> WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT DONALD
TRUMP HAVING THIS COMMANDING
LEAD?
>> IT SHOWS THAT THE REPUBLICAN
PARTY HAS LOST ITS MIND BECAUSE
THIS GUY JUAN FIT IN 2016, HE
WAS UNFIT IN 2020 AND HE REMAINS
UNFIT AND INDICTED IN 2024.
THE THING ABOUT THE DEBATE THE
OTHER NIGHT THAT YOU NOTICED IS
WHENEVER, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE,
ANY OF THOSE CANDIDATES TRIED TO
ARTICULATE A POSITION THAT
SEEMED EVEN REASONABLE, THEY
DISQUALIFIED THEMSELVES FROM
WING THE ACTUAL PRIMARY.
THE THING THAT NIKKI HALEY SAID
ABOUT HOW SHE WAS TRYING TO TALK
ABOUT ABORTION AND TALK PROCESS
ON IT AND WHY IT MIGHT NOT BE
ABLE TO BE POSSIBLE AND CHRIS.
>> NIKKI MOVED MY WIFE.
SHE HAD THE RIGHT ANSWERING ON
ABORTION ON THE STAGE AND THE
OTHER SEVEN BOYS OUTING TO PAY
ATTENTION TO WHAT SHE SAID IF
THEY WANT TO WIN.
>> SHE HAD AN ABSOLUTELY NORMAL
OPINION.
70% OF AMERICANS SUPPORT
ABORTION RIGHTS.
SHE MAY HAVE HAD AN EFFECT ON
SOME WOMEN IN THE REPUBLICAN
PARTY, BUT THE FACT IS THE VAST
MAJORITY OF AMERICANS WHO ARE
VOTERS SUPPORT ABORTION RIGHTS.
>> I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS, BILL.
SPEAKING OF INDICTMENTS, AS WE
JUST WERE, WISCONSIN'S FALSE
ELECTORS AND THE ARCHITECTS OF
THAT EFFORT FIGURED PROMINENTLY
IN THE GEORGIA INDICTMENT.
CAN WISCONSIN RETREAT FROM THE
MADNESS OF ALL OF THIS THIS TIME
AROUND?
>> WELL, WE'RE STILL SCHEDULED
TO BE ONE OF THE FIVE KEY SWING
STATES NEXT YEAR, BUT THAT COULD
CHANGE.
I'M NOT TOTALLY CONVINCED DONALD
TRUMP COULD BE COMPETITIVE HERE.
THERE'S NO EVIDENCE TO SUGGEST
THAT HE'S GROWN HIS COALITION,
IF HE IS, IN FACT THE NOMINEE
FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.
MOREOVER, HIS STYLE, THE
SLEDGEHAMMER STYLE OF LITERALLY
SMASHING HIS OPPONENTS WITHIN
THE REPUBLICAN POTTER IS SO
AGAINST RONALD REAGAN'S ELEVENTH
COMMANDMENT, IT DOES NOT PLAY
WELL HERE.
WE MAY NOT BE NICE, BUT WE'RE
FAIR.
REPUBLICANS WILL NOT FAREWELL IF
HE DESTROYS DeSANTIS OR NIKKI
HALEY.
>> DEMOCRATS ARE HELL BENT ON
GAINING POWER.
WE'VE SEEN THAT ACROSS THE
BOARD.
I DON'T SEE HOW, WITH THE WAY
THE REPUBLICAN MEDIA MACHINE
WORKS IN TERMS OF ARTICULATING
THESE THINGS THAT SEEM -- THE
DEMOCRATS AREN'T JUST WRONG ON
ISSUES; THEY'RE EVIL.
THAT'S A PROBLEM AND THEY'RE NOT
GOING TO START.
DONALD TRUMP AT THE TOP OF THE
TICKET IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE IN
A, UNFORTUNATELY, FOR ALL OF US,
FOR DEMOCRACY.
>> IT IS KIND OF TRUE, PEOPLE
AREN'T JUST WRONG, THEY'RE EVIL.
RIGHT?
>> REPUBLICANS HAVE TO GET AWAY
FROM THE NOTION OF OWNING THE
LIPS.
LET'S SELL AN AGENDA.
I MEAN, YOU WANT TO BRING PEOPLE
TO YOUR SIDE.
ULTIMATELY CAMPAIGNS, WINNING
CAMPAIGNS ARE ALL ABOUT
ADDITION, NOT SUBTRACTION.
>> WE NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE.
BILL McCOSHEN, SCOTT'S ROSS,
THANK YOU.
TURNING TO OUR ABORTION SERIES,
THE WISCONSIN LAWS RELATING TO
ABORTION ARE UNCONSTITUTIONALLY
VAGUE, ACCORDING TO THREE
PHYSICIAN INTERVENERS, NAMED IN
THE COMPLEX LAWSUIT CHALLENGING
WISCONSIN'S 1849 LAW ON
ABORTION.
THE LAWSUIT INITIALLY BROUGHT BY
STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL JOSH KAUL
LAST YEAR NAMES THREE DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS AS DEFENDANTS BECAUSE
THERE WERE PLANNED PARENTHOOD
CLINICS PERFORMING ABORTIONS IN
THEIR COUNTIES.
THEY ARE DANE COUNTY D.A. ISMAEL
OZANNE, MILWAUKEE COUNTY D.A.
JOHN CHISEL HOLY AND SHEBOYGAN
COUNTY JOE UMAR.
OF THE THREE, ONLY SHEBOYGAN
COUNTY YOU ARE MAN CAN I SAID HE
WOULD PROSECUTE PHYSICIANS IN
VIOLATION OF THE LAW.
THE LAWSUIT ALLEGES THE
PHYSICIANS FEAR CRIMINAL CHARGES
AND HAVE HAD TO ALTER HOW CARE
IS PROVIDED TO THEIR PATIENTS.
URMANSKI ARGUES THE LAWSUIT IS
AN ATTEMPT TO OBTAIN FROM THIS
COURT WHAT THE LEGISLATURE HAS
REFUSED TO DO AND ALSO SAYS,
ALTHOUGH THE INTERVENERS RAISED
CONCERNS REGARDING HOW THE 1849
LAW MAY APPLY TO ABORTIONS THEY
MAY NEED TO PERFORM AS PART OF
THEIR CARE OF PREGNANT PATIENTS,
THEY CAN NOT MEET NEAR BURDEN OF
DEMONSTRATING THAT THE 1849 LAW
CANNOT CONSTITUTIONALLY BE
APPLIED TO ANY ABORTION.
ONE COULD, FOR EXAMPLE, APPLY
THE 1849 LAW TO PROHIBIT AN
ELECTIVE ABORTION ON A HEALTHY
MOTHER OF A 6- TO 8-WEEK-OLD
UNBORN CHILD WITHOUT IMPLICATING
ANY OF THE INTERVENERS' CONCERNS
IN THEIR COMPLAINT.
NEITHER D.A. URMANSKI NOR HIS
ATTORNEY RESPONDED TO OUR
REQUEST FOR INTERVIEW.
CONTINUING OUR SERIES ON
ABORTION, TONIGHT, WE HEAR FROM
THE MEDICAL PERSPECTIVE.
MARISA WOJCIK HAS THIS STORY.
>> WHEN I GOT THE RESULTS, I
KNEW WHAT I WANTED TO DO.
IT WAS REALLY HARD EMOTIONALLY.
I WAS DEVASTATED.
I WANTED THAT BABY AND I WANTED
EVERYTHING TO BE FINE.
I WANTED HER TO BE HEALTHY, BUT
SHE WASN'T AND I KNEW THAT IF I
CARRIED THAT PREGNANCY TO TERM,
I WAS PUTTING MY OWN HEALTH AT
RISK AND I ALSO KNEW THAT MY
BABY F-SHE SURVIVED TO TERM,
WOULD ONLY SUFFER AND I DIDN'T
WANT THAT, SO I WAS VERY
CONFIDENT THAT I WAS MAKING THE
RIGHT DECISION FOR MY FAMILY.
>> JENNIFER MADE HER DECISION,
WHILE ABORTION WAS STILL LEGAL.
BUT CASCADE OF EVENTS FOLLOWING
THE U.S. SUPREME COURT'S RULING
ON DOBBS V JACKSON WOMEN'S
HEALTH ORGANIZATION HIT STATES
LIKE WISCONSIN THE HARDEST,
CREATING A NEAR TOTAL ABORTION
BAN IN THE STATE ONE YEAR AGO.
>> WE HAVE YET TO SEE WHAT
SYSTEMIC CONSEQUENCES THIS LAW
WILL HAVE.
>> WE'RE ALREADY SEEING IT.
WE'RE SEEING IT AT ALL LEVELS.
>> WISCONSIN HEALTHCARE
PROVIDERS FOUND THEMSELVES IN
LEGAL LIMBO AS A NUMBER OF DATED
AND CONFLICTING LAWS REMAIN IN
STATE STATUTE.
THE DEFAULT LEGAL STANDING FELL
BACK TO ONE LAW FROM 1849.
IT SAYS DESTROYING THE LIFE OF
AN UNBORN CHILD IS A FELONY
EXCEPT TO SAVE THE LIFE OF THE
MOTHER.
>> WE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THAT
GERMS CAUSED DISEASE IN 1849.
THIS WAS 70 YEARS BEFORE WOMEN
EVEN HAD THE RIGHT TO VOTE.
YOU DIDN'T EVEN OFTEN KNOW YOU
WERE PREGNANT UNTIL YOU ACTUALLY
COULD FEEL FETAL MOVEMENT.
>> WE ARE IN A SITUATION WHERE
THAT INTERPRETATION OF A LAW
FROM 1849 IS REALLY A GRAY AREA.
>> NOW WE'RE OPERATING THIS
NARROW CHANNEL OF PROVIDING THE
BEST CARE AND NOT COMMITTING
MALPRACTICE AND BEING CAREFUL
NOT TO BREAK A LAW AND SO YOU
THINK ABOUT THINGS THAT YOU
NEVER HAD TO THINK ABOUT BEFORE.
>> FOLLOWING THE DOBBS DECISION,
DOCTORS KRISTEN LYERLY,
CHRISTOPHER FORD AND JEN
MacINTOSH PUT THEMSELVES
FORWARD AS INTERVENERS IN A
LAWSUIT FILED BY STATE TORINO
JOATTORNEY GENERAL KAUL
CHALLENGING THE LAW.
AT THE PLANNED PARENTHOOD CLINIC
IN SHEBOYGAN, ONE OF THE FEW
THAT PROVIDED ABORTIONS IN THE
STATE.
>> TO KNOW THAT THE THERE'S A PE
WHERE SOMEONE CAN GO WHERE YOU
WILL BE HEARD AND HELP YOU MAKE
A DECISION THAT YOU NEED TO MAKE
WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF YOUR LIFE,
THAT WAS WHAT WE WERE DOING IN
SHEBOYGAN, AND I WAS REALLY
PROUD OF IT.
>> DR. MacINTOSH WORKS IN
MATERNAL FEELINGS MEDICINE,
TEACHES AT THE MEDICAL COLLEGE
OF WISCONSIN AND CONDUCTS
RESEARCH ON PREECLAMPSIA, A
SERIOUS CONDITION SHE SEES IN
MANY OF HER PATIENTS.
>> THOSE OF US IN THIS MEDICINE
HIGHLIGHT OUR SUBSET OF
OBSTETRICS AS KIND OF THE
HIGHEST OF HIGHS AND SOME OF THE
LOWEST OF LOWS BECAUSE WHEN WE
HAVE REALLY GREAT OUTCOMES,
TEASE SUPER REWARDING BUT AT THE
SAME TIME WE HELP FAMILIES
THROUGH TRAGIC OUTCOMES AS WELL.
THESE PREGNANT PEOPLE EITHER
HAVE HIGH-RISK CONDITIONS
THEMSELVES, SO MEDICAL
COMPLICATIONS, BUT ON THE FLIP
SIDE, WE ALSO TAKE CARE OF
FETUSES, SO GET THE MOST FAMILY
CENTERED OUTCOME THAT WE CAN.
>> DR. FORD WORKS IN EMERGENCY
MEDICINE, WITH EXPERIENCE
PRACTICING IN RURAL AND URBAN
SETTINGS.
>> AS AN EMERGENCY MEDICINE
PROVIDER, I SEE WOMEN THAT ARE
PREGNANT WHEN, YOU KNOW, THINGS
ARE GOING WRONG MOST OF THE
TIME.
WE ARE MANDATED AS EMERGENCY
PROVIDERS TO PROVIDE THE MOST
SALIENT CARE WE CAN TO PROTECT
THE LIVES OF THE PATIENTS
PROFESINFRONT OF US, SO INHERENN
OUR AREA, IF INSTABILITY FOR THE
PATIENT FOR THE LIFE OF THE
PATIENT AS WELL.
>> JEN WORKED AS A LABOR AND
DELIVERY NURSE.
>> I REALLY DISCOVERED DURING MY
CAREER THAT THOSE PARENTS GOING
THROUGH DIFFICULT SITUATIONS
WERE MY FAVORITES TO TAKE CARE
OF.
>> PRIOR TO THE DOBBS RULING,
WISCONSIN PATIENTS AND
PHYSICIANS HAD MORE OPTIONS WHEN
IT CAME TO MAKING DECISIONS
ABOUT REPRODUCTIVE HEALTHCARE.
>> WE WOULD HAVE CONVERSATIONS
ABOUT WHAT ALL THEIR OPTIONS
WERE.
WE WOULD TALK ABOUT EVERYTHING.
SOMETIMES WE WOULD CONNECT THEM
WITH PRENATAL CARE.
SOMETIMES WE COULD CONNECT THEM
WITH ADOPTION SERVICES.
SOMETIMES THEY WOULD GO HOME AND
THINK ABOUT IT AND THEY JUST
WOULDN'T RETURN FOR THAT SECOND
VISIT, BUT OFTEN THEY DID, AND
IT WASN'T UNUSUAL FOR PEOPLE TO
THANK US.
>> IT WAS FULL SCOPE CARE BASED
ON WHAT THE FAMILIES AND
PATIENTS WANTED.
SOMETIMES A DIFFERENT
UNDERSTANDING EMERGED AND
FAMILIES THAT NEVER SAW
THEMSELVES DOING THAT COULDN'T
RECONCILE SORT OF WHAT THE AFTER
LOOKED LIKE, WHICH IS TO
INTERRUPT THE FREE AGENCY AND
HAVE AN ABORTION, AND THOSE
WERE -- ALWAYS HARD CASES.
PATIENTS THAT WE CRIED WITH,
THAT I WOULD GO HOME AND CRY
ABOUT.
>> NOW THEY'RE MANAGING
REALITIES MUCH DIFFERENT THAN
BEFORE.
>> WE STILL PROVIDE THE SAME
INFORMATION AND SIMILAR
COUNSELING.
IF IT BECOMES CLEAR THAT THEY'RE
LEANING TOWARDS A TERMINATION, I
HAVE TO SAY, UNFORTUNATELY, THIS
IS ILLEGAL IN THE STATE OF
WISCONSIN, AND IF THIS IS WHAT
YOU CHOOSE TO PURSUE, THEN WE'LL
HAVE TO GIVE YOU INFORMATION ON
HOW TO PURSUE THIS OUT OF STATE,
AND IT FEELS LIKE I'M ABANDONING
MY PATIENTS AND N SAYING THAT.
>> TODAY, I AM NOT WORKING IN
WISCONSIN BECAUSE OF A LAWSUIT,
BECAUSE OF THE THREAT OF
CRIMINALIZATION FOR PROVIDING MY
PATIENTS WITH STANDARD OF CARE
MEDICINE.
SO I HAVE THE JOY OF WORKING IN
RURAL MINNESOTA AND NORTHERN
ARIZONA ON THE NAVAHO
RESERVATION.
SO IN A WAY, IT'S VERY
SATISFYING.
BUT THE TRUTH IS, I WANT TO BE
HOME.
>> IT'S BECOME A HUGE PROBLEM.
IT'S NOT A SITUATION THAT ANY OF
US WANT.
>> A CENTRAL ISSUE PHYSICIANS
MUST NOW NAVIGATE IS THE
EXCEPTION TO SAVE THE LIFE OF
THE MOTHER.
>> THE LAW AS WRITTEN IN THE
STATE OF WISCONSIN IS STILL VERY
GREAT.
THE NEXT PRESENTATION THAT
PATIENT MAY BE IN FULL-BLOWN
SEPSIS, MAY BE SOMETHING THAT IS
THREATENING FOR THE LIFE OF THE
MOTHER.
WE'VE HEARD REPORTS IN OTHER
STATES THAT HAVE VERY STRICT
ABORTION BANS LIKE WE DO HERE IN
WISCONSIN IN WHICH WE'VE HAD
PATIENTS THAT HAVE BEEN TOLD TO
WAIT IN THE CAR UNTIL THEY
BECOME EVEN MORE UNSTABLE IN
ORDER TO PRESENT TO THE
EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT, SO AT THAT
POINT IN TIME, THEY CAN DO
SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
NOW, OF COURSE THAT'S AN
EGREGIOUS EXAMPLE AND IT'S
SOMETHING THAT WE DON'T ASPIRE
TO.
HOWEVER, THAT IS SOMEONE'S
INTERPRETATION OF THE LAW IN
STATES THAT HAVE STRICTER
ABORTION LAWS, SUCH AS
WISCONSIN.
WE SEE MORBIDITY AND MORTALITY,
SIMPLE SPECIFICALLY MORTALITY FR
MOTHERS GO UP 60%.
>> IT'S INTRINSICALLY VAGUE,
WHICH THEN CAUSES PHYSICIANS TO
POTENTIALLY SECOND-GUESS, LIKE
IS THIS RISKY ENOUGH?
EVERYONE WHO PRACTICES MEDICINE
KNOWS IT CAN BE VERY GRAY FOR A
WHILE AND THEN BECOME VERY BLACK
AND WHITE, AND THE LONGER YOU
WAIT TO INTERVENE, THE WORSE THE
OUTCOMES ARE IN GENERAL.
>> THERE WAS A TIME WHEN I WAS
IN MINNESOTA WHERE SOMEONE
PRESENTED IN AN EMERGENCY IN AN
AMBULANCE.
SHE WAS BLEEDING.
SHE WAS 21 WEEKS PREGNANT WITH A
DESIRED PREGNANCY BUT SHE WAS
BLEEDING SO MUCH, SHE HAD TO GO
TO THE OPERATING ROOM RIGHT
AWAY, AND I HAD TO PERFORM AN
ABORTION, AND I COULDN'T HELP
WEBUT TO THINK TO MYSELF, IF THS
WAS HAPPENING TO ME IN
WISCONSIN, I WOULD BE TERRIFIED
ABOUT WHAT THE NEXT STEPS WOULD
BE, ABOUT WHAT THE IMPLICATIONS
FOR MY FUTURE, MY CAREER WOULD
BE.
>> THERE WILL STILL ALWAYS BE
SOME PROVIDERS WHO ARE VERY
CONCERNED ABOUT THAT, AS THEY
RIGHTLY SO SHOULD BE.
THERE'S RISK OF PROSECUTION UP
TO SIX YEARS AS WELL AS A
$10,000 FINE.
THERE'S THINGS THAT WILL LIKELY
BE IN THE BACK OF A LOT OF
PROVIDERS' MINDS, ESPECIALLY
THOSE PRACTICING IN MORE RURAL
LOCATIONS.
>> HAVING THE PROCEDURE DONE
WITHOUT ANY ADDITIONAL BARRIERS
MADE ALL THE DIFFERENCE FOR JEN.
>> DEALING WITH THE GRIEF AND
THE STRESS TO HAVE TO JUMP
THROUGH THOSE EXTRA HOOPS WHILE
ALSO DEALING WITH THAT, I
HONESTLY DON'T KNOW HOW I WOULD
NAVIGATE IT.
SO NOW WHEN I LOOK BACK, I FEEL
SO RECOVERED AND HEALED.
I ALSO WOULDN'T HAVE MY SON IF I
DIDN'T HAVE THIS ABORTION
BECAUSE OF THE TIMING IF I HAD
TO CARRY IT TO TERM.
JULIAN, HE IS -- HE JUST TURNED
SIX AND HE IS ONE OF THE MOST
JOYFUL AND CURIOUS PEOPLE I'VE
EVER MET.
HE JUST KIND OF IS A BALL OF
ENERGY.
HE COMES IN HERE AND RUNS AND
JUMPS OVER MY COUCH AND IS VERY
SNUGGLY AND TELLS ME ALL THE
TIME HOW MUCH HE LOVES ME.
THE MORE WE TRY TO FOCUS ON IS
THAT RIGHT OR WRONG OR IS THAT
OKAY, THE MORE WE'RE FOCUSED ON
MAKING CHOICES FOR OTHER PEOPLE
WHEN WE'RE NOT INVOLVED IN THEIR
HEALTHCARE AND WE'RE NOT MEDICAL
PROFESSIONALS.
>> PHYSICIANS WORRY NOT ONLY
ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES TODAY,
BUT THOSE YET TO COME.
>> THERE'S CERTAINLY A DOMINO
EFFECTS.
>> AND WHAT I'M SEEING OVER AND
OVER AGAIN IS THIS GETTING WORSE
OVER TIME, AND A LOT OF THAT HAS
TO DO WITH THE ACCESS OF
HEALTHCARE, WITH THE ACCESS OF,
YOU KNOW, CARE TO GYNECOLOGY.
A LOT OF THESE WOMEN IN THESE
AREAS RELY ON THEIR OB/GYNS AS
PRIMARY CARE, TO BE HONEST WITH
YOU, AND A LOT OF THAT MORTALITY
INCREASE THAT WE'RE SEEING IS
THE LACK OF THE ABILITY TO HAVE
FOLLOW-UP, NOT ONLY AS WE SAID
BEFORE ARE WE CREATING THOSE
HEALTHCARE DESERTS IN RURAL
SETTINGS, WE'RE DOING THAT IN
INNER CITY SETTINGS, TOO, WHICH
ARE ALREADY HAVING A LOT OF
ISSUES INHERENT TO ACCESS OF
CARE AND GENERAL AS WELL AS
HEALTHCARE OUTCOMES, AND SO
THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT FOR ME
PERSONALLY I TAKE MUCH STAKE IN.
IT'S SOMETHING THAT I WILL
CONTINUE TO FIGHT FOR THESE
PATIENTS BECAUSE THEY NEED A
VOICE.
EVERYBODY NEEDS A VOICE IN THIS
FIGHT AND A LOT OF THE VOICES
THAT ARE AT THE TABLE RIGHT NOW
DON'T SEE THESE PATIENTS AND
THEY DON'T HAVE ANY MEDICAL
BACKGROUND, AND THEY'RE MAKING
THESE DECISIONS.
>> I TALK TO RECRUITERS ALL THE
TIME WHO ARE LOOKING FOR DOCTORS
IN STATES LIKE TEXAS, AND IT'S
NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND
DOCTORS WHO ARE WILLING TO GO TO
STATES THAT HAVE SUCH HOSTILE
BANS.
SO, YEAH, I THINK THIS IS THE
TIP OF THE ICEBERG, AND IF WE
CAN'T TURN THIS SHIP AROUND,
THIS DIRE PHYSICIAN SHORTAGE
THAT WE ARE ALREADY EXPERIENCING
IS GOING TO GET MUCH WORSE,
FAMILY MEDICINE DOCTORS, WHO ARE
THE SAFETY NET IN RURAL
WISCONSIN, WHERE PEOPLE ARE
ALREADY SUFFERING.
>> MOST OF ALL, THESE HEALTHCARE
PROVIDERS WANT TO GO BACK TO THE
LAW AS IT STOOD IN WISCONSIN
PRIOR TO THE DOBBS RULING.
>> I JUST WANT TO DO MY JOB.
THE FACT THAT POLITICS ARE
TRYING TO BE PRESENT IN MY EXAM
ROOM, PRESENT IN THE BACK OF MY
MIND AS I'M LOOKING AT A PATIENT
AND TALKING TO HER -- TO THAT
PATIENT AND THEIR FAMILY, THAT
IT'S IMPACTING THAT AT ALL FEELS
CRAZY TO ME BECAUSE, REALLY, WE
SHOULD JUST BE PROVIDING THE
BEST EVIDENCE-BASED MEDICAL CARE
THAT WE CAN THAT'S RIGHT FOR
THAT PATIENT AND RIGHT FOR THEIR
FAMILY.
>> REPORTING FOR "HERE AND NOW,"
I'M MARISA WOJCIK.
>> AS TO THE LAWSUIT CHALLENGING
THE WISCONSIN ABORTION BAN,
ATTORNEY GENERAL KAUL IS SEEKING
TO EXPEDITE AN INJUNCTION
RELATED TO A RECENTLY CIRCUIT
COURT DECISION IN THE CASE.
THE CASE IS EXPECTED TO END UP
BEFORE THE STATE SUPREME COURT.
FOR MORE ON THIS AND OUR
PREVIOUS REPORTING ON ABORTION
IN WISCONSIN, INCLUDING HEARING
FROM WOMEN WHO HAVE HAD AN
ABORTION AND PREGNANCY RESOURCE
CENTERS THAT DISCOURAGE THEM,
VISIT OUR WEBSITE AT PBS
WISCONSIN DOT-ORG AND THEN CLICK
ON THE NEWS TAB.
THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT,
I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.
HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND.
(CLOSED CAPTIONING BY RIVERSIDE
CAPTIONING COMPANY)
>> FUNDING FOR "HERE & NOW" IS PROVIDED BY THE FOCUS FUND FOR JOURNALISM AND FRIENDS OF PBS
WISCONSIN.