I'VE EVER SPOKEN TO KNOWS THEY
NEVER CHANGED.
>> ONE OF THE EXPERTS WHO
TESTIFIED BEFORE THE COMMITTEE
IN OPPOSITION TO LIFTING THE BAN
ON CONVERSION THERAPY WAS BRIAN
MICHAEL.
HE'S THE CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER
OF MENTAL HEALTH AMERICA OF
WISCONSIN.
HE JOINS US NOW.
THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR
HAVING ME.
>> SO WE JUST HEARD FROM MATTHEW
SHURKA ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCE
HAVING UNDERGONE CONVERSION
THERAPY.
IN YOUR BELIEF, WHAT IS IT ABOUT
THE THERAPY THAT CAUSES SUCH
HARM, EVEN LEADING PEOPLE TO
SUICIDE?
>> WELL, REALLY WHAT A LOT OF
THE BAD AND ADVERSE EFFECTS COME
DOWN TO IS, YOU KNOW, MAKING A
YOUNG PERSON WHO'S LIVING THESE
THOUGHTS FEEL MORE REJECTED AND
ISOLATED, AND WE DO KNOW THAT
THOSE FEELINGS CAN LEAD TO
INCREASED RATES OF DEPRESSION,
SUICIDE ATTEMPT, SUICIDE
IDEATION.
YOUNG FOLKS WHO ARE PART OF THE
LGBTQ COMMUNITY ARE ALREADY AT
HIGHER RISK OF DEPRESSION AND
SELF-HARM, BUT WHEN THAT IS
COMPARED TO THOSE WHO FEEL
HIGHLY REJECTED BY THEIR
CAREGIVERS, BY THEIR FAMILIES,
THAT CAN RESULT IN NEARLY A NINE
TIMES HIGHER RATE OF ATTEMPTING
SUICIDE, SIX TIMES HIGHER RATE
OF DEPRESSION, AND ABOUT 3 1/2
MORE TIMES LIKELY OF ILLEGAL
DRUG USE AND HIV/AIDS.
>> SO WHO ARE THE THERAPISTS WHO
PROVIDE THIS CONVERSION
COUNSELING IF IT IS SO
OVERWHELMINGLY OPPOSED BY
PROFESSIONALS?
>> SO UNFORTUNATELY, WE DON'T
HAVE A RUNNING LIST OF THOSE
INDIVIDUALS AND THERAPISTS WHO
DO ENGAGE IN THAT THERAPY OR IN
THOSE TYPES OF INTERVENTIONS,
DESPITE HOW MANY PROFESSIONAL
AND MEDICAL ASSOCIATIONS HAVE
DISAVOWED AND DENOUNCED THIS
TYPE OF INTERVENTION, EVERYTHING
FROM AMERICAN ACADEMY OF CHILD
AND ADOLESCENT PSYCHIATRY,
ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS, THE
SCHOOL COUNSELOR ASSOCIATION.
BUT WHAT PARENTS AND FAMILIES
WHO ARE SEEKING SUFFICIENT AND
HELPFUL SUPPORT CAN LOOK FOR IS
THAT THIS TYPE OF INTERVENTION
MIGHT BE MASKED UNDER DIFFERENT
TYPES OF TERMS.
SO IT'S ALSO REFERRED TO AS
REPARATIVE THERAPY, OR IT COULD
BE REGARDED AS COULD BE CALLED
SEXUALITY COUNSELING OR SEXUAL
ATTRACTION FLUIDITY.
SO REALLY, THOSE WHO ARE
ENGAGING IN THIS PRACTICE,
THERE'S EVEN A WAY OF AVOIDING
THE KIND OF FLAGGING TERM OF
CONVERSION THERAPY BY SIMPLY
DESCRIBING IT AS SOMETHING ELSE
WHEN IN EFFECT, IT IS STILL
MAINTAINING THE SAME PURPOSE,
THAT THE SOCIAL WORK
ASSOCIATIONS WERE DENOUNCING OF
ATTEMPTING TO CHANGE SOMEONE'S
ORIENTATION, REALLY AGAINST
THEIR WILL OR AT A TIME WHEN
THEY'RE TOO -- THEY HAVEN'T
DEVELOPED TO THE POINT TO MAKE
THOSE DECISIONS.
>> AND GIVEN ALL OF THIS, WHAT
WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN THE
COMMITTEE VOTED TO LIFT THE BAN
ON CONVERSION THERAPY?
>> YOU KNOW, FOR THOSE WHO
ATTENDED THAT HEARING AND
WITNESSED THAT HEARING, IT WAS
HOURS OF TESTIMONY AGAINST
LIFTING THIS BAN.
COMING FROM ALL VARIETY OF
SECTORS.
WHETHER IT WAS INDIVIDUALS IN
THAT COMMUNITY THEMSELVES,
SOCIAL WORKERS, TREVOR PROJECT,
NATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS, MENTAL
HEALTH AMERICA OF WISCONSIN, ALL
COMING OUT TO SAY NOT ONLY THAT
THIS PRACTICE IS HARMFUL, BUT
WHAT THE COMMISSION -- WHAT THAT
COMMITTEE DID WAS ALSO SAY THAT
IN CREATING THIS ETHICAL
BOUNDARY, THE SOCIAL WORKER
ASSOCIATIONS AND PROFESSIONAL
ORGANIZATIONS OVERSTEPPED THEIR
BOUNDS, AND REALLY THE COMMITTEE
WAS COUNTERING THEIR ARGUMENT
SAYING THIS WAS A CAPRICIOUS AND
ARBITRARY USE OF THAT RULEMAKING
AUTHORITY, AND THAT IS WHY THE
COMMITTEE SAID WE ARE GOING TO
REMOVE THAT RULE.
SO THEY DIDN'T -- THE COMMITTEE,
DURING THAT HEARING, EXPRESSLY
SAID SEVERAL TIMES, WE'RE NOT
HERE TO TALK ABOUT WHETHER OR
NOT CONVERSION THERAPY IS GOOD
OR BAD, DESPITE ALL THE
EVIDENCE, OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE
SHOWING THAT IT'S HARMFUL.
OUR STATEMENT REALLY WAS, WE
DON'T -- YOU'RE RIGHT, WE DON'T
NEED TO TALK ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE
IT IS A HARMFUL PRACTICE.
BUT THESE SOCIAL WORKERS AND
THOSE PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATIONS
HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE AND THE
EXPERTISE TO STATE, THIS IS AN
UNETHICAL PRACTICE, AND IF YOU
ARE GOING TO ENGAGE IN THIS
PRACTICE, YOU ARE GOING TO BE
ACTING OUTSIDE THE BOUNDS OF
YOUR PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT.
>> WELL, WE APPRECIATE HEARING
FROM YOU, BRIAN MICHEL.