>>> THIS TIME THE SHOOTER
WREAKED HAVOC IN HIGHLAND PARK
AND DROVE TO MADISON.
NEXT TIME, IT COULD BE ANYWHERE.
ON HIS WAY HERE, HE DROVE PAST
HUNDREDS OF COMMUNITIES,
CELEBRATING THE FOURTH OF JULY.
ALL OF US ARE AT RISK WHEN
WEAPONS OF WAR ARE ON OUR
STREETS.
>> MADISON MAYOR SATYA RHODES
CONWAY.
IT'S DESCRIBED AS THE WEAPON OF
VOICE FOR MASS SHOOTERS, AS IN
HIGHLAND PARK, THE ARHI 15 STYLE
RIFLE.
OUR NEXT GUEST HAS A LOT OF
THOUGHTS ON MASS SHOOTINGS AS A
MILWAUKEE IMAGE ROOM PHYSICIAN.
IN ADDITION TO EVENING AN E.R.
FIGURES, DR. STEPHAN HARGARTEN
IS FOUNDING DIRECTOR OF THE
COMPREHENSIVE INJURY CENTER AT
MEDICAL COLLEGE OF WISCONSIN.
HE HAS THOUGHTS AND RESEARCH
ABOUT THE MAIMING AND KILLING
POTENTIAL OF ASSAULT RIFLES.
HE JOINS US NOW.
>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
>> FIRST, WHEN YOU SAW THE
HIGHLAND PARK SHOOTING, WHAT WAS
YOUR MEET REACTION?
>> WELL, WHAT I SAW WAS REALLY
THROUGH THE MEDIA THAT WAS
REPORTING ON IT.
AND I IMMEDIATELY THOUGHT THERE
MUST BE AN AR-STYLE RIFLE BEING
USED TO INFLICT THE DEATHS AND
INJURIES THAT WERE DONE IN SUCH
A SHORED PER -- SHORT PERIOD OF
TIME, AND THAT'S VERY
CHARACTERISTIC OF THE SHOOTINGS
IN OTHER SETTINGS.
>> YOU DESCRIBED THE VELOCITY OF
THE BULLET USED AS HAVING
DEVASTATING WOUNDING POTENTIAL.
HOW SO?
>> WELL, BULLETS ARE -- RELEASED
FROM IN THIS CASE FROM A RIFLE.
THEY HAVE A VELOCITY THAT'S OVER
TWO TO 3,000 FEET PER SECOND.
AND KINETIC ENERGY, WHICH IS
DEFINED BY THE MASS OF THE
BULLET, BUT THE VELOCITY BULLET
SQUARED QUANTITYIFIES THE AMOUNT
OF -- QUANTIFIES THE AMOUNT OF
ENERGY THAT'S DISPLACING TISSUE
BOTH PRIMARILY FROM THE BULLET
BUT FROM THE TEMPORARY CAVITY
THAT'S FORMED BY THIS KINETIC
RELEASE AND THAT TEARS THROUGH
ORGANS SUCH AS -- THROUGH ORGANS
AND RESULTS IN FRACTURES AND
DEVASTATING INJURIES THAT YOU
DON'T SEE WITH OTHER CALIBER
GUNS -- BULLETS FROM LET'S SAY A
HANDGUN.
>> I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT HOW
YOUR RESEARCH ZEROS IN ON THE
FIREPOWER OF THESE AR-15-STYLE
WEEKENDS.
TO ASSAULT RIFLE BULLETS, HOW DO
THEY TO OTHER AMMUNITION IN
TERMS OF THIS FIRE HOUR?
>> IN TERMS LET'S SAY A 9
MILLIMETER FROM A HANDGUN, THIS
IS RIFLE IS BULLET 9 TIMES
GREATER IN TERMS OF ITS KINETIC
ENERGY RELEASE AND TEMPORARY
CAVITY FORMATIONS ABOUT THREE TO
FOUR TIMES HIGHER.
SO THERE'S A BIG VARIATION FROM
CALIBER BULLETS FROM HANDGUNS
AND SO WE SEE THE PREDICTABLE
OUTCOMES OF HAVING DEVASTATING
INJURIES BECAUSE THESE
BLULETS -- BULLETS ARE TRAVELING
SO FAST.
>> DEVASTATING INJURIES AND
ALMOST CERTAIN DEATH, CORRECT?
>> WELL, IN THE CASE OF LET'S
SAY SANDY HOOK, ALL 20 OF THOSE
CHILDREN WHO WERE STRUCK BY THE
BULLETS DIED.
THIS WERE -- THERE WERE NO
SURVIVORS IN THAT AGE GROUP.
AND IT'S THE SAME I BELIEVE IN
THIS UVALDE TRAGEDY IN TEXAS.
THESE BULLETS RESULT IN
DEVASTATING PREDICTABLE
INJURIES.
AND I THINK THEY'RE MORE SEVERE.
WE DON'T HAVE THAT DATA.
IT'S HARD TO DO.
BUT IT'S CERTAINLY MORE SEVERE
IN THE YOUNGER AGE GROUPS.
THEY HAVE THERE IS RESERVE TO AT
LEAST IMMEDIATELY SURVIVE THESE
INJURIES AND GET TO HOSPITALS
AND OUR EMERGENCY DEPARTMENTS
AND TRAUMA CENTERS.
>> YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT HOW THE
SECOND PASSED -- SECOND
AMENDMENT COULD NOT HAVE
ANTICIPATED THE RIFLE AND BULLET
TECHNOLOGY OF TODAY.
WHAT'S YOUR EXAMPLE OF THAT?
>> WELL, WHEN WE DID THE
CALCULATIONS, THE ENERGY
RELEASES AND -- RELEASED AND HOW
MANY BULLETETS CAN BE -- BULLETS
CAN BE RELEASED, THE SANDY
SHOOTER RELEASED 154 BULLETS IN
LESS THAN FOUR MINUTES.
YOU CALCULATE A MILITIA PERSON
IN THE 1780s WHEN THE SECOND
AMENDMENT WAS FRAMED, THAT
INDIVIDUAL RELEASED SO MANY MORE
BULLETS OVER ONE MINUTE THAN A
MILITIA PERSON COULD DO.
AND THE ENERGY RELEASE OF THE
BULLETS FROM THE AR-STEIFF 15
RESULT VERSUS A MUSKET BALL, WE
ESTIMATED THIS INDIVIDUAL
REPRESENTED ABOUT 170 MILITIA
ATTACKING SANDY HOOK SCHOOL.
>> THERE IS PRESSION DIFFERENT
FOR REGULATING THE -- PRECEDENT
FOR REGULATING THE STYLE AND
MECHANICS OF THE FOORMS SUCH AS
THE 1934 RESTRICTIONS ON GUN
GUNS.
WERE NOT ON AR15 STYLE RIFLES
AND THEIR AM US IN?
>> SURE.
IT'S A GO-AHEAD EXAM ABOUT --
EXAMPLE ABOUT HOW THE FEDERAL
LEVEL DISCUSSIONS CHANGED IN THE
LATE '20s AND EARLY '30s
FROM A SERIES OF GANGLAND-STYLE
MASS SHOOTINGS THAT OCCURRED,
THE SAINT VALENTINES DAY
MASSACRE.
THERE WAS ALSO AN ASSASSINATION
ATTEMPT ON THEN-PRESIDENT
ROOSEVELT, RESULTED IN 1934
REGULATION -- REGULATION OF IN
THIS CASE A THOMPSON MACHINE GUN
WHICH FIRES A 4- -- .45 CALIBER
BULLET.
AND THAT'S RESULTED IN PEOPLE
OWNING THIS GUN BUT SEF A
REGISTRATION REQUIREMENT AND
MILD TAX, AND YET FOR 80 YEARS,
THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A MASS
SHOOTING WITH A THOMPSON MACHINE
GUN.
AND WE FEEL THAT PERHAPS THIS IS
AN APPROACH FOR ASSAULT-STYLE
RIVALS, TO CONSIDER THIS
APPROACH -- RIFLES, TO CONSIDER
THIS APPROACH FOR FOR COL --
CONTROLLING THE FIREFIGHTER
AVAILABILITY IN THE COMMUNITY
BY, IF YOU WANT TO HAVE THIS
FIREARM, THEN YOU REGISTER IT
AND THERE'S A TAX SIMILAR TO
WHAT THEY'RE DOING WITH
3-POINT -- THOMPSON MACHINE
GUNS.
>> WHAT MIGHT BE CONTEMPLATED AS
PUBLIC HEALTH DOES NOT BAN OR
SEIZING WEAPONS, WHICH THE
POSSESSION OF WHICH IS ENSHRINED
IN THE SECOND AMENDMENT?
>> I'M NOT HERE TO DISCUSS --
NOT A CONSTITUTIONAL EXPERT ON
THE CONTINUING INTERPRETATION OF
THIS.
BUT I FIND IT TO BE NOTABLE THAT
THE TECHNOLOGY HAS EMERGED AS IT
HAS IN THIS CASE THIS PRODUCT,
THAT'S EQUIVALENT TO OTHER
FIREARMS THAT ARE REGULATED LIKE
THE THOMPSON MACHINE GUN AND
IT'S SO DIFFERENT THAN THE
INTELLIGENCES BACK WHEN THE
FRAMERS OF THE CONSTITUTION
THOUGHT ABOUT HAVING A
WELL-REGULATED MILITIA.
SO I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO,
ONE, WE HAVE THESE DISCUSSIONS
TO, BASE OUT A SCIENCE-ORIENTED,
SCIENCE-INFORMED PLATFORM THAT
HAS PEOPLE COMING TOGETHER TO
DISCUSS WHAT IS APPROPRIATE FOR
POSSESSION, FOR HUNTING, FOR
SELF-PROTECTION, FOR SPORTING,
AND WHAT PERHAPS IS SOMETHING
ELSE THAT COULD BE OR SHOULD BE
REGULATED IN A DIFFERENT
FASHION.
>> WE LEAVE IT THERE.
DR. STEPHAN HARGARTEN, THANKS