>> THANK YOU, FRED.
>> THE LATEST WEEKLY JOBLESS
CLAIMS IN WISCONSIN SHOW JUST
UNDER 4,001ST TIME FILERS AND A
LITTLE OVER 21,000 CONTINUING
CLAIMS ACCORDING TO THE
DEPARTMENT OF WORKFORCE
DEVELOPMENT.
THIS IS A FAR CRY FROM DURING
THE DEPTHS OF THE PANDEMIC, WHEN
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE
SOUGHT UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS
WITH LONG WAIT TIMES OF WEEKS
AND MONTHS FOR PAYMENT.
THE EVERS ADMINISTRATION IS
TRYING TO FIX WHAT IT CALLS AN
ANTIQUATED UNEMPLOYMENT
INSURANCE COMPUTER SYSTEM, BUT
ACCORDING TO OUR NEXT GUEST, THE
PROCESS IS STILL A MESS, LEAVING
THOUSANDS OF FILERS FACING
WARRANTS FOR OVERPAYMENTS.
VICTOR FORBERGER, LABOR AND
EMPLOYMENT ATTORNEY, JOINS US
FROM MADISON.
THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THOSE
WARRANTS IN A MINUTE, BUT DWD
SAYS ON ITS WEBSITE THAT THE
AVERAGE AMOUNT OF TIME CLAIMANTS
WAIT TO GET PAID IS ABOUT 50
DAYS.
BUT THEN THEY SAY THAT'S A
CUMULATIVE NUMBER SINCE MARCH OF
2020.
WHAT ARE THE ACTUAL WAIT TIMES
LIKE RIGHT NOW?
>> IT'S HARD TO TELL.
BECAUSE IT'S WHAT I'M SEEING
WITH VARIOUS CLAIMANTS, THEY WIN
DECISIONS OR THEY GET INITIAL
DETERMINATIONS, AND THEN THEY
WAIT AND THEY CALL UP AND I TELL
THEM TO CALL UP AND THEY'RE JUST
TOLD, IT HAS TO GO TO MANUAL
PROCESSING OR IT HAS TO BE
PROCESSED.
SO THE DATA YOU'RE LOOKING AT IS
FOR THESE CASES TO BE
ADJUDICATED AND THEN A DECISION
TO BISH OOO YOUD ISSUED.
THAT JUST MEANS A DECISION IS
ISSUED.
THERE ARE WAITS THEN FOR
APPEALS, FOR HEARINGS, AND RIGHT
NOW, BECAUSE MANY, MANY CASES
WERE LOST AT THE HEARING STAGE
AND THEN APPEALED TO THE LABOR
INDUSTRY REVIEW COMMISSION, THEY
HAVE A 6 TO 12 MONTH DELAY RIGHT
NOW.
SO --
>> SO IT'S A LOT OF HURRY UP AND
WAIT TYPE STUFF WHEN YOU GET TO
THAT LEVEL OF IT.
BUT GOING BACK TO KIND OF JUST
THE NORMAL PROCESS AT THE HEIGHT
OF PANDEMIC JOB LOSSES, THE
SYSTEM OBVIOUSLY DID NOT HOLD UP
UNDER THE CRUSH OF CLAIMS.
HAVE THERE BEEN IMPROVEMENTS IN
THE SYSTEM AND THE PROCESS,
ESPECIALLY AS UNEMPLOYMENT IS
NOW SO LOW?
>> NOT THAT I'VE SEEN.
THERE'S STILL HUGE DELAYS AND
PROBLEMS BECAUSE IT'S STILL AN
INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT AND
COMPLICATED PROCESS.
PEOPLE ARE NOT ABLE TO FOLLOW IT
BECAUSE IT'S ASKING THEM TO HAVE
A FAMILIARITY WITH UNEMPLOYMENT
LAW AS IF THEY WERE AN ATTORNEY
OR AN EXPERIENCED CLAIM FILER
THAT'S BEEN DOING THIS FOR 20
YEARS.
AND THEY'RE NOT.
AND SO THEY'RE CONFUSED AND THEY
CAN'T GET STRAIGHT ANSWERS, AND
THEY'RE MAKING MISTAKES THEN.
>> SO WHAT YOU SAY YOU'RE
DEALING WITH AS AN ATTORNEY
WORKING ON BEHALF OF CLIENTS
GETTING JOBLESS BENEFITS IS THAT
THE STATE IS CRACKING DOWN ON
CLAIMANTS FOR OVERPAYMENTS,
WHICH YOU SAY ARE OFTEN
UNINTENDED MISTAKES MADE ON THAT
APPLICATION.
HOW BIG IS THIS CRACKDOWN?
>> IT IS TREMENDOUS RIGHT NOW.
BECAUSE IT'S SO EASY TO MAKE A
CLAIM FILING MISTAKE.
AND THEN THERE ARE VARIOUS
THINGS THE DEPARTMENT DOES THAT
JUST -- IT'S NOT FOLLOWING ITS
OWN LAW, AND SO PEOPLE ARE BEING
PENALIZED.
AND THE AMOUNTS ARE HUGE,
ESPECIALLY WHEN THE DEPARTMENT,
BECAUSE -- WELL, BECAUSE THE
DEPARTMENT PRESUMES A CLAIM
FILING MISTAKE IS INTENTIONAL,
IT THEN PRESUMES IT'S
FRAUDULENT.
AND SO THE PENALTIES THAT WERE
ENACTED BACK IN 2013 AND 2014
MAKE THESE KINDS OF MISTAKES
ENORMOUS.
AND THE DEPARTMENT HAS AN
INCENTIVE, BECAUSE THEY POCKET
25% OF THE ADMINISTRATIVE
PENALTY.
SO IF YOU OWE $10,000, $2,500 OF
THAT IS GOING INTO THE PROGRAM
INTEGRITY FUND.
>> HOW EASY IS TO MAKE MISTAKES
ON THE APPLICATION FOR
UNEMPLOYMENT?
>> IT'S -- I MEAN, THERE ARE
COMPOUND QUESTIONS, SO A
QUESTION THAT'S REALLY TRICKING
PEOPLE UP RIGHT NOW IS, IF YOU
ARE WERE APPLYING FOR.
PUA
BENEFITS, YOU'RE SELF EMPLOYED.
THE QUESTION WAS, ARE YOU SELF
EMPLOYED OR -- NO, THE QUESTION
IS, ARE YOU RECEIVING WORKING
AND COVERED EMPLOYMENT OR ARE
YOU SELF EMPLOYED?
PEOPLE LOOK AT THE SECOND PART
OF THAT QUESTION AND THEY'D
ANSWER, QUELL, NO, I DIDN'T HAVE
ANY SELF EMPLOYMENT WORK THAT
WEEK.
SO THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN WORKING
AT 7-11 THAT WEEK FOR 10 HOURS.
>> YOU'RE MAKING IT SOUND AS
THOUGH THIS IS BY DESIGN ON THE
PART OF THIS STATE AGENCY.
DO YOU THINK IT'S BY DESIGN OR
IT'S A BUG OF WHAT THE EVERS
ADMINISTRATION CALLS AN
ANTIQUATED SYSTEM?
>> WELL, THIS DOESN'T REALLY
HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE
COMPUTER SYSTEM.
IT HAS TO DO WITH THE QUESTIONS
THAT ARE BEING ASKED.
AND SO HOW YOU ASK THOSE
QUESTIONS AND HOW YOU FRAME
THOSE QUESTIONS, THAT'S -- AS
YOUR REPORTER, SO YOU NEED TO
WRITE STORIES IN CLEAR ENGLISH,
SPEAKING CLEAR ENGLISH SO PEOPLE
UNDERSTAND.
THAT'S WHAT CLAIM FILING SHOULD
BE.
THE MODEL CLAIM FILING LANGUAGE
IS SUPPOSED TO BE AT A 6TH GRADE
LEVEL.
AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE CLAIM
FILING QUESTION, IT'S VERY
OBVIOUS, IT'S FULL OF LEGALISMS,
AND ABSTRACT CONCEPTS.
SO IT'S VERY DIFFICULT FOR
PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND HOW AM I
SUPPOSED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT AM I
SUPPOSED TO REPORT?
YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO REPORT YOUR
VACATION PAY.
WHAT IF YOU'RE PAID PTO?
WHAT IF YOU'RE PAID FLEX TIME?
WHERE DO YOU PUT THAT?
AND IF THE EMPLOYER PUTS IT IN A
DIFFERENT CATEGORY, WELL, THEN
NOW YOU'VE MISREPORTED YOUR
WAGES.
>> AND SO THE SOLUTION HERE IN
YOUR MIND, ONE OF THEM, WOULD BE
TO REWRITE THESE QUESTIONS IN
PLAIN LANGUAGE?
>> YOU'VE GOT TO SIMPLIFY AND
MAKE THIS AS EASY AS POSSIBLE,
AND THERE ARE BASIC CONCEPTS WE
ALL KNOW, LIKE YOU START WITH
THE GENERAL AND THEN YOU GET
SPECIFIC BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL BE
FAMILIAR WITH GENERAL IDEAS
BEFORE YOU START ASKING THEM
SPECIFIC.
THE CLAIM FILING PROCESS STARTS
WITH THE SPECIFIC.
YOU KNOW, YOU'RE ASKED
SPECIFICALLY, DID YOU GET
HOLIDAY PAY?
THEY'RE NOT ASKING YOU, CAN YOU
GET ANY WAGES AT ALL THIS PAST
WEEK?
THAT'S HOW THE QUESTION IS BEING
ASKED.
>> IT DOES SOUND COMPLICATED AND
THERE'S MORE TO TALK ABOUT WITH
THIS BUT FOR NOW, WE LEAVE IT
HERE.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.