THANKS AGAIN.
>> AT THE CAPITOL, THE STATE
SUPREME COURT HEARD ARGUMENTS
THIS WEEK IN A SUIT TO DECIDE
THE NEXT VOTING MAPS FOR
WISCONSIN.
THE COURT PREVIOUSLY ANNOUNCED
IT WOULD TRY TO MAKE AS FEW
CHANGES AS POSSIBLE TO THE
CURRENT MAPS, WHICH SOME ARGUE
LOCK IN REPUBLICAN MAJORITIES IN
THE LEGISLATURE.
THE COURT MUST ALSO CONSIDER
CHANGES TO THE STATE'S MINORITY
COMMUNITIES.
UNDER THE FEDERAL VOTING RIGHTS
ACT, MINORITY COMMUNITIES CANNOT
BE GERRYMANDERED OUT OF
POLITICAL VOICE.
HERE'S JUSTICE PAT ROGGENSACK ON
THAT POINT.
>> I'M LOOKING AT WHAT'S
HAPPENED IN THE MILWAUKEE
COMMUNITY AND I GO BACK AND I
LOOK AT HOW AFRICAN-AMERICANS
HAVE FARED IN ELECTIONS THERE.
AND I HAVE SOME VERY SPECIFIC
QUESTIONS, PARTICULARLY, YOU
KNOW, THE FACT THAT LIEUTENANT
GOVERNOR MANDELA BARNES WAS
ELECTED TO BE THE CANDIDATE TO
RUN WITH THE GOVERNOR WITH 6
7.76 VOTE IN THE PRIMARY
DEFEATING A WHITE CANDIDATE.
SO TO ME THAT APPEARS IN A
STATEWIDE CONTEST YOU HAVE --
YOU HAVE AFRICAN-AMERICAN
CANDIDATES BEING SUPPORTED BY
WHITE VOTERS.
BUT THAT CERTAINLY DOESN'T SHOW
A BLACK VOTING, OKAY, BY WHITE
VOTERS TO KNOCK OUT AN
AFRICAN-AMERICAN CANDIDATE.
>> THE REDISTRICTING PROCESS IN
WISCONSIN IS GOING ABOUT AS
EXPECTED, LANDING BEFORE THE
STATE SUPREME COURT.
WHAT MIGHT BE CONSIDERED
UNEXPECTED, INFIGHTING AMONG
LEGISLATIVE REPUBLICANS OVER
ALLEGATIONS OF FRAUD IN THE 2020
ELECTIONS.
INFIGHTING THAT CAUSED SPEAKER
ROBIN VOS TO STRIP A MEMBER OF
HIS CAUCUS OF HIS STAFF.
>> THERE ARE SOME WHO BELIEVE --
ONE WHO BELIEVES THAT WE SOMEHOW
HAVE THE RIGHT, EVEN THOUGH
EVERY LAWYER THAT WE HAVE WORKED
WITH IN WISCONSIN SAYS WE CANNOT
UNDO THE 2020 ELECTIONS, YOU
KNOW, REPRESENT RAN THUMB HAS
THAT BELIEF.
THAT'S HIS RIGHT.
>> ALL OF WHAT IS HAPPENING IN
THIS STATE WITH ELECTIONS IS
WHAT OUR NEXT GUEST CALLS
EXCEPTIONAL AND DANGEROUS.
UW-MADISON PROFESSOR BARRY
BURDEN IS THE DIRECTOR OF THE
ELECTIONS RESEARCH CENTER AND
THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
>> GLAD TO BE HERE.
>> SPECIFY WHY YOU CALL HOW THE
LAST ELECTION IS BEING TREATED
RIGHT NOW IN WISCONSIN
EXCEPTIONAL AND DANGEROUS?
>> THE EXCEPTIONAL PART IS
PROBABLY MORE OBVIOUS.
WE'VE SEEN A SERIES OF THINGS
HAPPEN SINCE THE ELECTION WE'VE
NEVER SEEN BEFORE IN MODERN
HISTORY.
NOT ONLY DID WE HAVE THE NORMAL
AUDITS AND CANVASS THAT HAPPEN
AFTER THE ELECTION, BUT THERE
WAS A RECOUNT IN THE STATE'S TWO
BIGGEST COUNTIES, DANE AND
MILWAUKEE, AND THEN A SERIES OF
INVESTIGATIONS, AUDITS, HEARINGS
THAT WERE BASED NOT IN FACT AND
NOT DRAWING ON THE EXPERTISE OF
PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY RUN
ELECTIONS OR KNOW HOW THESE
THINGS WORK AND SEEM TO HAVE A
KIND OF OPEN-ENDED QUALITY TO
THEM, WITH NO CLEAR RESOLUTION
IN SIGHT.
ALL OF THESE EFFORTS,
PARTICULARLY THE GABLEMAN
INVESTIGATIONS, ARE NOT LIKELY
TO BUILD CONFIDENCE.
THEY'RE GOING TO FURTHER
UNDERMINE IT.
AND I SAY THAT'S DANGEROUS
BECAUSE SUPPORT FOR THE OUTCOME
OF ELECTIONS IS AN ESSENTIAL
PART OF A DEMOCRACY.
VOTERS HAVE TO ACCEPT THE
RESULTS AND MOVE ON AND TRY TO
WIN THE NEXT ELECTION.
INSTEAD, THESE EFFORTS I THINK
ARE KEEPING THOSE SUSPICIONS
ALIVE AND RELIT GAIFTING THE
2020 ELECTION.
>> THESE EFFORTS SEEM TO HAVE
FIT A FEVERED PITCH WITH
SUBPOENAS FLYING AND ON AND ON.
BUT DOES THE GABLEMAN
INVESTIGATION STAND OUT EVEN
AMONG OTHER STATES' EFFORTS IN
THIS WAY?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
I THINK THE ONLY PARALLEL WOULD
BE THE CYBER NINJAS
INVESTIGATION THAT TOOK PLACE IN
ARIZONA FUNDED MOSTLY BY PRIVATE
RATHER THAN STATE DOLLARS THE
WAY THE GABLEMAN INVESTIGATION
S. BUT BOTH OF THEM WERE RUN BY
PEOPLE WITH NO EXPERTISE IN THE
FIELD, STAFFED MOSTLY BY EITHER
TRUMP SUPPORTERS, TRUMP
LOYALISTS OR PEOPLE WHO WERE
ELECTION SKEPTICS OR DENIERS AND
HAVE NO LIMITATION OF SCOPE, NO
CLEAR QUESTIONS DEFINED.
BOTH THE CYBER NINJAINGS AND
GABLEMAN HAVE HOCKED FROM ONE TO
ANOTHER.
SOMETIMES IT'S PRIVATE
CONTRACTS.
SOMETIMES IT'S DROP BOXES.
SO IT'S UNCLEAR HOW A PROJECT
LIKE THAT EVER REACHES SOMETHING
CONVINCING AT THE END OF THE
WORK.
>> SO THE SLATE OF REPUBLICAN
ELECTORS IN WISCONSIN CALLED
FRAUDULENT ELECTORS WHO SENT
THEIR VOTES FOR TRUMP TO
WASHINGTON ARE DESCRIBED AS PART
OF A NATIONAL COORDINATED
CAMPAIGN THAT THE JANUARY 6
COMMITTEE IS NOW INVESTIGATING.
WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THE TEN
REPUBLICAN FALSE ELECTORS IN
THIS STATE?
>> IT'S BIZARRE.
YOU KNOW, THOSE FAKE ELECTORS
SIGNED THE CERTIFICATES AFTER
ALL OF THE LEGAL CHALLENGES HAD
BEEN CONCLUDED.
IT WAS NOT AS THOUGH THERE WAS
STILL A QUESTION ABOUT WHO HAD
WON THE STATES AND THE COURTS
WERE WORKING THEIR WAY THROUGH
THE SYSTEM.
IT WAS TIME FOR THE ELECTORS TO
VOTE IN THE STATE CAPITOL MORE
THAN A MONTH SINCE ELECTION DAY
AND A FINAL DECISION FROM THE
SUPREME COURT HAD BEEN RENDERED
A COUPLE HOURS BEFORE THEY MET
AT THE STATE CAPITOL.
IT WASN'T BASED ON FACTS ON THE
GROUND IN WISCONSIN, A SPECIFIC
KNOWLEDGE OF THINGS THAT HAD
GONE WRONG HERE BECAUSE IT WAS
THE SAME EFFORT IN ARIZONA AND
OTHER COMPETITIVE BATTLEGROUND
STATES.
IT WAS A NATIONAL CAMPAIGN AS
WE'RE LEARNING LED BY FOLKS
INSIDE THE TRUMP OPERATION TO
TRY TO SET THE STAGE FOR
OVERTURNING THE ELECTION ON
JANUARY 6.
>> IN FACT, ONE OF THOSE
REPUBLICAN ELECTORS WHO SIGNED
THAT PAPERWORK THAT WAS SENT
ALONG TO WASHINGTON IS ACTUALLY
A COMMISSIONER ON THE WISCONSIN
ELECTIONS COMMISSION.
WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?
>> IT SEEMS UNCONSCIONABLE TO ME
THAT SOMEONE WHO IS RESPONSIBLE
FOR OVERSEEING ELECTIONS AT THE
STATEWIDE LEVEL IS ALSO SO
CLOSELY ATTACHED TO ONE OF THE
NATIONAL CAMPAIGNS AND SO
COMMITTED TO IT THAT THE PERSON
WOULD SIGN A FAKE ELECTORAL
CERTIFICATE.
I DON'T KNOW HOW THAT'S
POSSIBLE.
IT'S CERTAINLY NOT ETHICAL AND
NOT HELPFUL.
>> YOU SAY THAT YOU WOULD
WELCOME AN ACTUAL REVIEW OF THE
2020 PANDEMIC ELECTION, BUT YOU
CALL THIS ONE SECRETIVE,
BUMBLING AND LACKING
CREDIBILITY.
BUT WHAT WOULD YOU WANT TO LEARN
IN AN ACTUAL REVIEW?
>> I THINK THERE ARE GOOD
QUESTIONS TO BE RAISED ABOUT
AREAS OF STATE LAW THAT SHOULD
BE CLARIFIED AFTER THE ELECTION,
PARTICULARLY AROUND ABSENTEE
VOTING WITH SO MANY PEOPLE
VOTING BY MAIL OR EARLY FOR THE
FIRST TIME.
WHAT SHOULD BE DONE ABOUT
NURSING HOMES AND DROP BOXES AND
ALL OF THE ISSUES THAT BECAME A
PART OF THE ELECTION
INFRASTRUCTURE.
SOME OF THOSE ARE NOT WELL
SPECIFIED IN THE LAW BECAUSE
THEY WEREN'T ANTICIPATED.
YOU CAN IMAGINE STATE
LEGISLATORS WERE NOT
ANTICIPATING A PUBLIC HEALTH
CRISIS.
SO I THINK SOME SERIOUS
CONSIDERATION FOR HOW TO TWEAK
THE LAWS IS WARRANTED.
>> DOES IT SUGGEST IN TWEAKING
THE LAWS THAT THERE WAS ANYTHING
GOING ON THAT WAS WRONG OR
FRAUDULENT?
>> I THINK THE COURTS HAVE
ALREADY CONCLUDED THAT THERE WAS
NOTHING WRONG OR FRAUDULENT THAT
HAD GONE ON.
THE LEGISLATIVE AUDIT BUREAU'S
REPORT INDICATED THAT THERE WERE
AREAS OF STATE LAW THAT SHOULD
BE CLARIFIED.
AND THERE WERE SOME PRACTICES
THAT WERE A LITTLE SLOPPY OR
UNEVEN ACROSS THE STATE BUT
THAT'S TRUE OF EVERY ELECTION.
IT'S A HUMAN PROCESS, IT'S AN
IMPERFECT ONE AND TRYING TO
PERFECT IT OUGHT TO BE THE JOB
OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE.
>> BARRY BURDEN, THANKS VERY
MUCH FOR JOINING US WITH YOUR