FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP
CONTINUES INTO THE WEEKEND.
IT'S LIKELY HE WILL BE ACQUITTED
BECAUSE NOT ENOUGH REPUBLICAN
SENATORS WILL VOTE TO CONVICT
HIM AFTER THE DEADLY ATTACK ON
THE U.S. CAPITOL.
HIS DEFENSE, HE HAD A FIRST
AMENDMENT RIGHT TO SPEAK OUT.
ARGUMENTS IN FAVOR OF
CONVICTION?
THAT DONALD TRUMP'S REPEATED
CALLS TO STOP THE STEAL
UNLEASHED HIS SUPPORTERS.
OUR NEXT GUEST IS A FORMER
REPUBLICAN OF SOME WAY WITH HIS
LONG-RUNNING CONSERVATIVE TALK
RADIO PROGRAM IN WISCONSIN.
HE WENT FROM A NEVER-TRUMPER TO
VOTING FOR JOE BIDEN.
HE'S THE FOUNDER AND EDITOR OF
THE WEBSITE THE BULWARK.
CHARLIE SYKES JOINS US NOW TO
GIVE US HIS TAKE ON THE
IMPEACHMENT TRIAL AND MORE.
AND THANKS A LOT FOR JOINING US.
>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.
>> SO WHY DO YOU THINK DONALD
TRUMP SHOULD BE CONVICTED IN
THIS IMPEACHMENT TRIAL?
>> WELL, IF INCITING AN
INSURRECTION IS NOT IMPEACHABLE,
IF THAT DOES NOT CROSS A RED
LINE, THEN WHAT WOULD BE
IMPEACHABLE?
I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THE
HOUSE MANAGERS DID VERY
EFFECTIVELY THIS WEEK WAS TO PUT
WHAT HAPPENED IN CONTEXT, THAT
THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED
STATES IS USING THE POWER OF HIS
OFFICE TO MOBILIZE A MOB TO
ATTACK CONGRESS TO PREVENT IT
FROM COUNTING THE ELECTORAL
VOTES TO OVERTURN A FREE AND
FAIR ELECTION SO HE CAN HOLD ON
TO POWER.
THIS IS WHY THE FOUNDERS
ACTUALLY CREATED I THINK A
PROVISION FOR IMPEACHMENT OF THE
PRESIDENT.
>> YET DONALD TRUMP DID NOT JOIN
IN THE ATTACK.
HOW CAN HE BE BLAMED FOR IT AND
HOW CAN RHETORIC ALONE MAKE HIS
SUPPORTERS STORM THE HALLS OF
CONGRESS.
>> IT'S NOT JUST JANUARY 6.
THE ROLE OF THE BIG LIE, YOU
HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF, IF DONALD
TRUMP HAD NOT LIED ABOUT THE
RESULTS OF THE ELECTION, WOULD
THIS HAVE HAPPENED?
WOULD FIVE PEOPLE HAVE DIED?
AND I THINK THAT THE ANSWER TO
THAT IS OBVIOUS, THAT DONALD
TRUMP FOMENTED THIS.
HE LAID THE KINDLING WOOD FOR
IT.
HE POURED THE KEROSENE OVER IT
AND THEN HE TOSSED A MATCH.
THERE'S A LOT OF WHAT ABOUTISM,
BUT THIS IS NOT JUST ANOTHER
PROVE TEST OR BURNING DOWN THE
711.
THIS WAS AN ATTEMPT TO STOP THE
CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES
FROM PERFORMING A CORE
CONSTITUTIONAL FUNCTION, TO
COUNT THE ELECTORAL VOTES.
THAT'S WHAT DONALD TRUMP WANTED.
HE WANTED TO DELAY THAT PROCESS
AND THE MOB WAS DOING IT.
SO IT IS UNPRECEDENTED IN
AMERICAN HISTORY.
>> IN FACT HIS DEFENSE SAID HE
WAS ENGAGING IN PROTECTED FREE
SPEECH AND THEY TRIED TO CREATE
THIS EQUIVALENCY WITH BLACK
LIVES MATTER PROTESTS.
WHAT'S YOUR REACTION TO THOSE
DEFENSES?
>> WELL, I THINK IT'S A BAD
FAITH ARGUMENT BECAUSE THERE IS
NO EQUIVALENCY BETWEEN
PROTESTORS WHO MAY COMMIT ACTS
OF VIOLENCE OR OF VANDALISM AND
A CONCERTED ATTACK ON THE
CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES.
THE CONTEXT MATTERS HERE.
THIS IS PART OF THE PRESIDENT OF
THE UNITED STATES EFFORT TO
OVERTURN THIS ELECTION.
HE TRIED IN THE COURTS.
HE FAILED.
HE TRIED TO GET LEGISLATORS TO
OVERRIDE THE POPULAR VOTE.
HE FAILED.
HE TRIED TO BULLY SECRETARIES OF
STATE AND GOVERNORS INTO DOING
IT.
HE FAILED OVER AND OVER AND OVER
AGAIN UNTIL THE ONLY THING HE
HAD LEFT WAS THIS MOB.
AND UNFORTUNATELY THEY CAME VERY
CLOSE.
THIS IS THE OTHER POINT.
THEY CAME VERY CLOSE TO ACTUALLY
STOPPING THE PROCESS OF CHOOSING
A NEW PRESIDENT.
AND THIS WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED
BUT FOR THE WORDS AND THE
ACTIONS OF DONALD TRUMP.
>> SO IF TRUMP IS ACQUITTED,
WHICH IS EXPECTED, WHY WON'T
REPUBLICAN SENATORS VOTE TO
CONVICT?
>> WELL, I THINK, YOU KNOW, THIS
HAS BEEN THE LONG-RUNNING
PATTERN OF REPUBLICANS WHO HAVE
REFUSED TO STAND UP AGAINST
DONALD TRUMP.
IF THERE WAS ANY MOMENT WHEN
THEY WERE GOING TO TAKE A MOMENT
TO SAY THAT WE'RE MOVING ON FROM
TRUMP, THIS WOULD BE IT.
I THINK THE EVIDENCE WAS
OVERWHELMING.
I THINK THAT HIS CONDUCT WAS SO
EE GREEFNLG
EGREGIOUS.
THEY LOSE NOTHING.
AND I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THOSE
MOMENTS WHERE MEMBERS OF THE
SENATE AND HOUSE HAVE TO ASK
THEMSELVES WHAT COMES FIRST,
COUNTRY OVER PARTY?
DO I TAKE MY OATH OF OFFICE
SERIOUSLY?
OR SHOULD I BE WORRIED ABOUT
MEAN TWEETS AND A PRIMARY
CHALLENGE?
I THINK THIS IS A VERY, VERY
CLEAR VOTE.
BUT I ALSO THINK THIS IS ANOTHER
INDICATION OF THE FACT THAT THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY JUST CAN'T QUIT
DONALD TRUMP.
THEY'RE NOT WILLING TO DO IT.
>> WELL, YOU SAY THAT IT IS HARD
FOR YOU TO WATCH THE
TRUMPIFICATION OF THE REPUBLICAN
PARTY IN WISCONSIN.
WHAT IS THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S
HOLD ON THAT PARTY AND ITS
ELECTED OFFICIALS HERE?
>> I FIND IT REALLY
EXTRAORDINARY, BECAUSE THIS WAS
NOT SOMETHING THAT YOU SAW EVEN
UNDER RONALD REEF REAGAN OR GEORGE W.
BUSH.
THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS BECOME
A CULT OF PERSONALITY, THAT WHAT
HAD ONCE BEEN SIMPLE PARTISAN
POLARIZATION HAS NOW BECOME A
KIND OF RAW TRIBAL DISAIFTION.
BUT IT IS DIFFICULT IN WISCONSIN
BECAUSE AS YOU REMEMBER
WISCONSIN WAS ONE OF THE
BULWARKS AGAINST TRUMP DURING
THE PRIMARIES.
THIS WAS ONE OF THE FEW
REPUBLICAN PRIMARIES HE LOST.
THERE WAS TREMENDOUS SKEPTICISM
ABOUT TRUMP.
YET YOU LOOK ACROSS THE PARTY
AND LOOKING AT ELECTED OFFICIALS
AND THEY HAVE ALMOST TO A PERSON
BECOME TRUMP L