WALKER TRADED ON THE POLITICS OF
RESENTMENT IN HIS SWEEPING
CHANGES TO THE STATUS QUO IN
WISCONSIN.
ANOTHER AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST
REPORTING AT THE TIME IS A
CAPITOL CORRESPONDENT WROTE A
BOOK ON ACT 10 CALLED "MORE THAN
THEY BARGAINED FOR."
HE'S NOW RESEARCH DIRECTOR AT
THE POLICY FORUM AND JOINS US TO
DISCUSS THE POLITICAL
IMPLICATIONS OF ACT 10 A DECADE
LATER.
HEY, JASON.
THANK YOU FOR DOING THIS.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> WE WERE JUST TALKING OFF AIR
A LITTLE BIT ABOUT OUR REACTIONS
AS JOURNALISTS WHEN THIS
HAPPENED AND I WANT TO JUST
START THIS BY ASKING YOU THAT.
AS YOU SAID IN THE PRESS ROOM
THERE, IN THE CAPITOL, AND YOU
WATCHED THIS UNFOLD, WHAT WERE
YOU THINKING?
>> WELL, YOU JUST HAD THIS
OVERWHELMING SENSE OF BEING A
WITNESS TO HISTORY RIGHT IN
FRONT OF YOU, EVENTS THAT WERE,
YOU KNOW, NOT NEARLY DRAWING
NATIONAL ATTENTION, BUT
INTERNATIONAL ATTENTION.
AND SO IN THAT SENSE AT LEAST
IT'S MUCH LIKE THE EVENTS THAT
WE'VE SEEN IN THE PAST YEAR,
WHERE YOU'RE JUST AWARE IN REAL
TIME THAT HISTORY IS UNFOLDING
IN FRONT OF YOU.
>> YEAH.
INDEED.
SO AS TO THE IMPACTS OF ACT 10,
THE KIND OF CLIFF NOTES VERSION
OF IT IS THAT TAXES ARE DOWN AND
SCHOOL SPENDING IS DOWN, BUT
HELP US PUT A LITTLE MORE MEAT
ON THAT.
WHY AND WHY?
WHY TAXES DOWN?
WHY IS SCHOOL SPENDING DOWN AS A
RESULT?
>> YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT THAT
THAT'S THE CASE WHEN YOU COMPARE
WISCONSIN TO OTHER STATES AROUND
THE COUNTRY.
YOU KNOW, I MEAN, ONE KEY AREA
OBVIOUSLY IS IN THE AREA OF
EMPLOYEE BENEFITS.
SO, YOU KNOW, PRIOR TO ACT 10,
WISCONSIN RANKED VERY HIGHLY IN
TERMS OF SPENDING ON PUBLIC
EMPLOYEE BENEFITS, TEACHERS, FOR
INSTANCE.
ACT 10 REQUIRED HIGHER
CONTRIBUTIONS FOR PENSION AND
HEALTH BENEFITS FOR MOST STATE
AND LOCAL EMPLOYEES, AND SO THAT
REALLY SHIFTED THAT EQUATION AND
IT RESULTED IN, YOU KNOW,
WISCONSIN GOING FROM LEADING THE
COUNTRY IN THINGS LIKE EMPLOYEE
BENEFIT SPENDING TO BEING BELOW
THE NATIONAL AVERAGE.
NOW, IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE
THAT THAT ISN'T JUST ABOUT
PEOPLE'S BENEFITS BECAUSE THOSE
HIGHER CONTRIBUTIONS ALSO LED TO
LOWER TAKE-HOME PAY.
SO IT'S LOWER COST FOR STATE AND
LOCAL GOVERNMENTS, BUT ALSO
REDUCED COMPENSATION FOR THEIR
EMPLOYEES.
>> SO IN 2021, WHERE DOES THAT
PUT WISCONSIN K-12 SCHOOLS?
>> IT'S A GOOD QUESTION.
YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SEEN, AS YOU
SAID, PER-PUPIL SPENDING FALL
FROM ABOVE THE NATIONAL AVERAGE
IN WISCONSIN TO BELOW IT AND
THAT IS -- AS THAT HAS HAPPENED,
OUR TAXES AT THE STATE AND LOCAL
LEVEL IN WISCONSIN HAVE FALLEN
FROM BEING IN THE TOP TEN
NATIONALLY TO BEING 23rd TO
BEING REALLY BELOW THE NATIONAL
AVERAGE.
AND THAT HAS HAPPENED REALLY
DESPITE THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE
SEEN BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN
LOCAL SCHOOL REFERENDA PASS IN
RECENT YEARS.
SO YOU'VE SEEN TAXES FALL,
YOU'VE SEEN SCHOOL SPENDING FALL
AT LEAST RELATION TO OTHER
STATES AND YOU HAVE SEEN
INCREASINGLY SOME VOTERS AT THE
LOCAL LEVEL BEING WILLING EVEN
ON A SORT OF BIPARTISAN BASIS IN
RED AND BLUE COMMUNITIES TO
INCREASE THEIR OWN PROPERTY
TAXES TO HAVE ADDITIONAL
SPENDING FOR THEIR SCHOOL
DISTRICT.
>> ALL RIGHT.
SO WHAT DID ACT 10 DO TO UNIONS?
>> WELL, I MEAN, THAT'S ONE OF
THE MOST PRONOUNCED IMPACTS THAT
YOU SEE.
EVEN BEFORE ACT 10, YOU HAD
FALLING UNION MEMBERSHIP AS A
SHARE OF THE OVERALL WORKFORCE
AND I THINK THERE'S EVERY REASON
TO THINK THAT THAT WOULD HAVE
CONTINUED TO HAPPEN EVEN WITHOUT
ACT 10.
BUT IT'S CLEARLY THE CASE THAT
YOU SAW THAT ACCELERATE.
BECAUSE REALLY ONE OF THE FEW
AREAS OF STRENGTH FOR UNIONS
PRE-ACT 10 WAS PUBLIC EMPLOYEES.
AND OBVIOUSLY THERE WAS A
PRECIPITOUS DROP IN MEMBERSHIP
LEVEL FOR PUBLIC EMPLOYEES.
AND IT'S WORTH NOTING THAT FOR
EVERYTHING THAT WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT, THERE'S BOTH WHAT ACT 10
DID, WHICH WAS REALLY A VERY
NARROW PIECE OF LEGISLATION.
IT WAS SWEEPING, BUT IT WAS ONLY
UP TO A POINT.
AND A WHOLE CHANGE IN GOVERNANCE
AND PHILOSOPHY THAT WAS USHERED
IN BY REPUBLICAN MAJORITIES THAT
CAME INTO POWER IN 2011.
AND SO EVEN ON THE ASPECT OF
UNIONS, WE SEE RIGHT TO WORK,
WHICH AFFECTED PRIVATE SECTOR
UNIONS.
THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN AS PART OF
ACT 10.
BUT IT AND IN 2015.
BUT ACT 10 CERTAINLY OPENED THE
DOOR TO A LOT OF THESE CHANGES
THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
>> WELL, AS TO THE POLITICS OF
ACT 10, DO YOU FEEL AS THOUGH
ACT 10 MARKED THE END OF
BIPARTISANSHIP IN WISCONSIN?
>> WELL, IT CERTAINLY WAS A VERY
LENGTHY PAUSE.
I THINK IT CERTAINLY
RECONFIGURED THE TIMES WE'RE
LIVING IN NOW WHERE PEOPLE SEE
SOMETHING FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG
WITH THE OTHER SIDE.
NOT JUST INCORRECT, BUT WRONG.
AND YOU SAW BOTH ON THE -- THE
DEMOCRATS SAW THIS ATTEMPT TO
REALLY REPEAL MOST UNION POWER
AS GOING TOO FAR, BEING
OUTRAGEOUS.
AND THEN WHEN THE SENATE
DEMOCRATS LEFT THE STATE CAPITOL
TO DENY A QUORUM AND A VOTE ON
ACT 10 AND WENT TO ILLINOIS,
REPUBLICANS REALLY SAW THAT AS
AN ILLEGITIMATE ACT.
AND SO YOU JUST HAD EITHER SIDE
BEING SORT OF UNWILLING TO
RECOGNIZE THE OTHER AS A
LEGITIMATE ACTOR IN GOOD FAITH
TRYING TO DO SOMETHING POSITIVE
FOR THE STATE.
>> YES.
WELL, WE LEAVE IT THERE.
JASON STEIN, THANKS VERY MUCH.
WITNESS TO HISTORY.