COLOR.
OUR NEXT GUEST IS A LAW
PROFESSOR AT MARQUETTE
UNIVERSITY.
HIS EXPERTISE: VOTERS ON THE
MARGINS.
ATIBA ELLIS JOINS US NOW.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> YOUR WORK FOCUSES ON
DISENFRANCHISEMENT OF VOTERS.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE TRUMP
CAMPAIGN CHOOSING THE COUNTING
WITH THE HIGHEST POPULATIONS OF
PEOPLE OF COLOR FOR RECOUNT?
>> WELL, I THINK IT ECHOS SORT
OF THE WORST DAYS OF RACIAL
DISCRIMINATION THAT WE SAW A
CENTURY AGO.
DURING THE JIM CROW ERA WE OFTEN
SEE CASES WHERE THE STRUCTURES
OF ELECTIONS WERE SHIFTED IN
ORDER TO DISENFRANCHISE
AFRICAN-AMERICANS AND THAT
STRUCTURES WERE MANIPULATED TO
EITHER DISENFRANCHISE ENTIRELY
OR MARGINALIZE THE VOTING VOICE
OF PEOPLE OF COLOR.
THIS HAS DISTURBING ECHOS OF
THAT PATTERN BY TARGETING THE
COUNTIES WHERE THE LARGEST
POPULATIONS OF PEOPLE OF COLOR
ARE IN THIS STATE WITH THE HOAX
OF OVERTURNING AN ELECTION,
YOU'RE EFFECTIVELY NULLIFYING
THOSE VOTES.
AT LEAST THAT'S HOW IT CAN BE
SEEN.
I REALIZE THAT INTENTION IS
OFTEN AN ISSUE WHEN IT COMES TO
THESE SORTS OF CONCERNS, BUT ALL
TOO OFTEN THE WAY THE LAW ASKS
THESE QUESTIONS IS WHAT'S THE
EFFECT?
AND IT WOULD LOOK LIKE THE
EFFECT OF EXCLUDING VOTERS IN
DANE AND MILWAUKEE COUNTY MIGHT
BE TO TARGET PEOPLE OF COLOR
SPECIFICALLY.
>> NOW, THE KINDS OF BALLOTS THE
TRUMP CAMPAIGN SOUGHT TO THROW
OUT INCLUDED THOSE DESCRIBING
THEMSELVES AS INDEFINITELY
CONFINED, WHERE A VOTER I.D. WAS
NOT REQUIRED.
WHAT'S THE CAMPAIGN'S MESSAGE
HEREN YOUR MIND?
>> WELL, I THINK THAT THE
CAMPAIGN IS TRYING TO IN ESSENCE
ARGUE AFTER THE FACT THAT THE
RULES OUGHT TO BE CHANGED.
I MEAN, PART OF THE BACKGROUND
HERE IS THAT THE REPUBLICAN
LEGISLATURE AND THE WISCONSIN
ELECTIONS COMMISSION BASICALLY
AGREED TO THIS FORM OF
INTERPRETATION AND WAS CERTAINLY
THE FORM OF INTERPRETATION IN
2016 AND THEY'VE PROCEEDED IN
THE SAME WAY IN 2020.
SO IT SEEMS DISINGENUOUS TO SAY
THE LEAST TO SUDDENLY CHANGE THE
RULES BECAUSE THE RESULT THAT
YOU LIKED IN 2016 ISN'T THE
RESULT THAT YOU LIKE IN 2020.
>> HOW HAS THE VOTER I.D. LAW
ITSELF IMPACTED VOTING IN
MARGINALIZED COMMUNITIES?
>> WELL, I THINK IT PUTS THEM AT
RISK.
OFTEN THE LITIGATION AROUND
VOTER I.D. IS ABOUT WHETHER
COMMUNITIES OF COLOR,
AFRICAN-AMERICAN, LATINX
COMMUNITIES HAVE I.D. IN THE
SAME PROPORTION AS THE MAJORITY
COMMUNITY.
AND SO THAT RUNS THE RISK OF
DISENFRANCHISING.
AND CERTAINLY THERE WAS EVEN A
2016 STUDY IN MILWAUKEE THAT
POINTED TO THE FACT THAT PEOPLE
PERCEIVED THE VOTER I.D. LAW AS
HAVING A DISENFRANCHISING
EFFECT.
AND THAT AFFECTED THEIR
BEHAVIOR.
IT'S HARD TO FIND THE HARD
NUMBERS, BUT WITH THAT MESSAGE
OUT THERE IT RISKS
DISENFRANCHISING.
>> AS TO THE RECOUNT, WISCONSIN
ELECTION OFFICIALS SAY THERE
WERE FEW IF ANY IRREGULARITIES.
WHAT IN YOUR MIND IS THE END
GAME FOR THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN NOW
THAT THE TRANSITION TO
PRESIDENT-ELECT BIDEN IS IN
PROGRESS?
>> THE TRANSITION IS IN
PROGRESS.
THE OTHER STATES THAT WERE
CLOSELY CONTESTED ARE CERTIFYING
THEIR ELECTION RESULTS.
IT'S HARD TO SEE A WIN HERE,
FIRST OF ALL, GIVEN THE
NARROWNESS AND ARGUABLE DOUBT
THAT THESE LEGAL THEORIES HAVE.
I MEAN, LOOKING AT THE RECORD,
THE TRUMP LEGAL TEAM HAS
BASICALLY LOST ALMOST ALL OF ITS
LITIGATION BASED ON SIMILAR
THEORIES.
IT MAY WELL BE ABOUT SENDING A
MESSAGE ABOUT DEMOCRACY.
AND I FEEL THAT THIS MESSAGE
COMES WITH SOWING DISTRUST IN
THE WORK THAT THE ELECTIONS
COMMISSION HAS DONE AND THAT ALL
THE HARD WORK ELECTIONS
ADMINISTRATORS DO IN WISCONSIN.
AND THAT MISTRUST CAN HAVE
CONSEQUENCES GOING FORWARD.
>> YEAH.
ABSOLUTELY.
BECAUSE I WAS GOING TO ASK, WHAT
KIND OF TASTE DOES ALL OF THIS
LEAVE IN THE MOUTHS OF VOTERS IN
THE AFTERMATH OF ALL OF THIS
ALLEGED WIDESPREAD FRAUD?
AS WE LOOK TOWARD THE FUTURE?
>> WELL, I THINK THAT THERE IS
GOING TO BE A MEMORY OF DOUBT
BEING SOWN.
I THINK THAT THIS TALK ABOUT
VOTER FRAUD, WHICH USED TO BE
FRINGE AND USED TO BE LEFT UP TO
THE COURTS TO DISMISS, IS NOW IN
THE PUBLIC'S MIND.
AND I THINK THAT THAT IS GOING
TO MAKE PEOPLE DOUBT AND
CERTAINLY EVEN SURVEYS ARE
SHOWING THAT DOUBT ABOUT THIS
RESULT IS BASED ON WHO DO YOU
BELIEVE.
BUT THE OBJECTIVE FACTS ARE THAT
THIS ELECTION HAS BEEN SECURE
AND IT HAS BEEN EFFECTIVE
DESPITE THE CHALLENGES POSED BY
THE LAWS AND BY THE PANDEMIC.
>> ALL RIGHT.
WE LEAVE IT THERE.
WE REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR
EXPERTISE, PROFESSOR ELLIS.
THANK